Class Rep Program Update

Masel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Masel are you still able to do thing like your fantastic guild to dps in eso thread?

I guess since i am the devil now, that is not part of my responsibilities. I will give my best to ensure everyone gets a torch and a pitchfork to run after me though.

No_Division

Hashtag_ wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYI2uvwyE4

yikes

Reactive/chudan are outdated too. Their defenses are basically less effective against the 16k pen/1.8-1.9 CHD modifier meta in PvP:



Why pick 35% Mitigation that's valued at roughly the same as pariah/fort brass? Actually, vamp cloak beats out reactive because it's 100% uptime. My list includes Templar minor protection at the old cooldown so that might be higher now.

Most of the defense sets are flattened now with major protection and minor maim the last ones standing. Better to go full stats for extra healing/dodge rolls.

Tommy_The_Gun

Nefas wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I have my doubts. Nefas seemed super happy about WW nerfs in one of his videos.
Idk about you, but a class rep being happy about sledge - hammer over-nerfs is kinda dangerous to this game...

If saying Werewolf isn't dead in PvE contrary to what people bemoaned and that the nerfs/adjustments were fine or necessary is me celebrating/being super happy, I guess I am?

You see, the problem with saying "WW is not dead next patch". Is umm... at what content ?
Sure for RP, yes WW will have a use, but other than that WW will simply wont have a use - case. Pack Leader is lacking A LOT dmg and offers almost no utility whatsoever.
WW berserker wont be worth it in PvP, because of bleed dmg mechanics changes. As for PvE, t3hasiangod did a preatty good video on that subject, basically saying that there is simply no point in using it in PvE because even WW Berserker lost substantial amount of dps, so even a beginner-player on non-ww will get a better result.

So basically, next patch we have a unique, the most expensive ultimate abilty in game that has no purpose or place in both pve & pvp.

WW is just an example here of a wider, general problem. Class reps tend to look at things only from one perspective. Either end game PvE raiding or PvP. Imho, they lack (at least most of them) the ability to look at stuff from a wider angle. From other perspective.
Almost every change this patch will affect your "average joe" the most. Ceiling is going up, while floor is going down, widening the gap between low skilled newbe, average and good player even futher. It might be just me but shouldnt it be the other way arround ?

Nefas

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As for PvE, t3hasiangod did a preatty good video on that subject, basically saying that there is simply no point in using it in PvE because even WW Berserker lost substantial amount of dps, so even a beginner-player on non-ww will get a better result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q0zVyDW1DY

From the video: "It's still a very viable build as you can see this is straight up light attacking with 2 active abilities.."

"Werewolves have seen a DPS nerf (just under 8-10% overall at least on a dummy)...73.9k (Scalebreaker) vs 79.9k (Elsweyr) about 6k DPS"

"It's an easy gateway into PvE but I would suggest trying out actual - well I don't wanna say the term actual - but more realistic stamina DPS builds. [on the topic of endgame PvE or simply PvE progression]"

Class reps tend to look at things only from one perspective. Either end game PvE raiding or PvP. Imho, they lack (at least most of them) the ability to look at stuff from a wider angle. From other perspective.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Who is WW class rep ? It feels like it needs one...

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

Seraphayel

Still the question, 10 reps and just 1 console player?

colossalvoids

Well, except Nefas it's really sad state of things we got knowing that there was really promising and competent players who applied. Probably it's intentional but... eh, who's surprised at this point.

TPishek

colossalvoids wrote: »

Well, except Nefas it's really sad state of things we got knowing that there was really promising and competent players who applied. Probably it's intentional but... eh, who's surprised at this point.

Maybe next time buddy.

SirAndy

Nefas wrote: »

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

@Nefas
You do realize that a raid dummy parse means absolutely nothing outside of a, wait for it, raid?
If that's your definition of "very viable" then we are doomed.

But yeah, class rep away, it can't get any worse, right? RIGHT?

susmitds

SirAndy wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

@Nefas
You do realize that a raid dummy parse means absolutely nothing outside of a, wait for it, raid?
If that's your definition of "very viable" then we are doomed.

But yeah, class rep away, it can't get any worse, right? RIGHT?

@SirAndy You do realize that raids have highest requirement for DPS standard? If something is viable in a raid, it is viable everywhere else in PvE. 70k in raid dummy translates to around 40k in standard dummy. Which is more than enough for any content and I don't know why you would expect more with a single bar light attack rotation.

SantieClaws

Best of luck to you all

Psst - ask them about more yarn!

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Hotdog_23

Masel wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As a general reminder, the goal of this program is to ensure your voice is being heard

Does that mean it's the only feedback ZOS read in regards to Classes?

10 people decide the future of a Class... now i understand why every major update people complain.

Yes, I was behind shield cast times, nightblade changes, current healer changes, i increased pvp lag by 50% aaand I'm responsible for the pricing in the crown store. All by myself, I'm basically a walking nightmare for every dedicated player.

It was YOU!!!

Congrats to all I wish you great success because your success is our (player) success.

PS, Kick Masel for me.

Tommy_The_Gun

@Nefas

Oh my, we have a class rep that is also.... a... forum troll ?!
^ Sorry for that silly joke, but this is what some people might think. ^

You see, on forums people will almost always treat what you say "literally". Now that you are a class rep, people will expect for you to act at lest semi-professional. So if you say something sarcastic (I assume it was sarcastic), people will treat what you say literally. You have this "Class Representative" signature under your Avatar and people will trust you. Similar to "Community Ambassador" - it basically say "this is a forum user, promoted by ZOS, you can trust him/her".

You have been chosen to represent various players. All of them will expect you to represent them, and their feedback, pain-points and problems they might want to address. At this point, you have to slightly put aside your personal opinion and bias and listen to majority of players (all kinds: casuals, end-gamers, PvE-ers, PvP-ers, and even RP & housing). Your huge experience as an end-game player will help a lot - that is why you have been chosen for that role.

If you want to be a Werewolf Class Rep, then so be it. There is a whole big official thread waiting. It is a long read, but if you REALLY want that, then read it and note what are the most important problems with WW currently:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread/p17

Now I am sorry for being harsh to you, I am just ultra frustrated with WW changes. And the video you made... I guess it triggered me...
I don't do PvP or PvE anymore. All that I have left is crafting & solo play. WW Pack Leader made it possible for me and is the last thing I love & cherish about the game. If this is gone, It means I am gone too.

Yirmeyahu

Congrats to the new meat!

I guess my application was misplaced.

T3hasiangod

Nefas wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As for PvE, t3hasiangod did a preatty good video on that subject, basically saying that there is simply no point in using it in PvE because even WW Berserker lost substantial amount of dps, so even a beginner-player on non-ww will get a better result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q0zVyDW1DY

From the video: "It's still a very viable build as you can see this is straight up light attacking with 2 active abilities.."

"Werewolves have seen a DPS nerf (just under 8-10% overall at least on a dummy)...73.9k (Scalebreaker) vs 79.9k (Elsweyr) about 6k DPS"

"It's an easy gateway into PvE but I would suggest trying out actual - well I don't wanna say the term actual - but more realistic stamina DPS builds. [on the topic of endgame PvE or simply PvE progression]"

Class reps tend to look at things only from one perspective. Either end game PvE raiding or PvP. Imho, they lack (at least most of them) the ability to look at stuff from a wider angle. From other perspective.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Who is WW class rep ? It feels like it needs one...

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

Dat feeling when Nefas pulls quotes from your video

Harrdarrzarr

susmitds wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

@Nefas
You do realize that a raid dummy parse means absolutely nothing outside of a, wait for it, raid?
If that's your definition of "very viable" then we are doomed.

But yeah, class rep away, it can't get any worse, right? RIGHT?

@SirAndy You do realize that raids have highest requirement for DPS standard? If something is viable in a raid, it is viable everywhere else in PvE. 70k in raid dummy translates to around 40k in standard dummy. Which is more than enough for any content and I don't know why you would expect more with a single bar light attack rotation.

I think what Andy meant is that a trial dummy is still a dummy. Good for practicing parses, but not for trialcombat

gepe87

Welcome guys.

We all know that your feedback won't be heard, like other former representatives.

And don't take it with much enthusiasm,...You may rage quit after some patch notes that no one expected (like murkmire 1st PN).

Anhedonie

Please, don't use the reps as meat shields for your PR stunt and treat them well.
After all, you have reps to thank for the fact that necro has more than 2 stamina skills.

wishlist14

Welcome new class reps 😊😊😊

CAB_Life

No_Division wrote: »

Hashtag_ wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYI2uvwyE4

yikes

Reactive/chudan are outdated too. Their defenses are basically less effective against the 16k pen/1.8-1.9 CHD modifier meta in PvP:



Why pick 35% Mitigation that's valued at roughly the same as pariah/fort brass? Actually, vamp cloak beats out reactive because it's 100% uptime. My list includes Templar minor protection at the old cooldown so that might be higher now.

Most of the defense sets are flattened now with major protection and minor maim the last ones standing. Better to go full stats for extra healing/dodge rolls.

Why pick Reactive? This is a no CP battleground build (as are all of my videos). This is a tank build with resistances higher than cap to counter excessive pen and one that is focused on sustain and survival first. In the video, I specifically state the aforementioned as well as that I’m not going for kills—but kills are always nice! This build is built around buffing and passing defensive mitigation on to the sunshield and/ or using Reactive in lieu of break free. Templars also get minor protection every time they cast an aedric spear ability, and they’re doing that with every cast of the sunshield, which is inherent to the build, so that buff isn’t necessary. Chudan was chosen for it’s utility and convenience and not merely its defensive value, so that I could easily an extra skill on my bar. Reactive remains a valuable set as it offers health, stamina and stamina sustain and procs when someone is setting you up for a burst combo; it procs a lot in general and always when you need it most.

Now in all of my discussions with the community I am very careful about saying/ implying that ‘my way’ is a.) the only way to make a build b.) effective for everyone’s play-styles c.) the numerically efficient meta. I am also not the only rep that has an interest in PVP, and there are other people who represent those other play-styles. I respect other players and their interests and that is all I ask in turn. I don’t presume, either, that my specific interests/ play-style are gospel or ubiquitous.

I will never understand why people lock themselves into a single set of perceptions and values; you miss so much else of the world that way. While I think it’s fine to disagree, I believe in polite discourse where a measure common ground or difference of opinion is sought or achieved. I’m spending about an hour each morning of my personal and valued time going through threads here, on Reddit and in Discord and compiling what are the most common, reasonable and repeated pain points to ensure that those are known to ZOS—as that is my responsibility and the duty for which I was chosen. I am not paid for this and if you would like to have a constructive dialog, ideally approach it with the understanding that I am not here to push a personal agenda. I am here to relay information back and forth. To some that may be less interesting than having arguments about specific grievances though, which you will not get from me. I think I’ve said enough in this thread and I’ll leave any further commentary to my inbox. I have a work and a very sick cat to tend to, anyway.

Those of you with console-specific concerns feel free to message me.

Regards,
—C

P.S. Thank you for the salutations from those of you welcoming us aboard.

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed some comments that were disruptive and not constructive. Please keep your posts civil.

ATomiX69

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• CAB_Life (console player!)
• cicisch
• Glorious
• NefasQS
• RebornZombie

console players I assume?

Rungar

i dont understand this program. Seems like a headache for everyone involved and very inefficient.

if zos really wants to communicate all they need to do in advance of a big patch is make some sticky forum polls for critical items ( usually combat changes) and see what comes back. They dont have to abide by it and there is no drama.

this is the natural way because after the changes, like now, you still get the same information on these boards except the information is worthless and full of quitting and spite because the patch is already complete.

turn your hindsight into foresight. AKA use your own forums.

its this simple:

Hey guys were planning on changing the behavior of x combat mechanism due to reason x (i.e overperforming). We are aware that this specific change might impact some players playstyles but think its necessary for the health of the game. We would like to know your thoughts prior to designing new changes. This doesnt mean that we will take the most popular route, or your specific suggestions, but we feel that consulting you in this way might uncover the best solution to the problem.

Given that we are going to make some changes what would be your preferred route of balancing from the options below:

A ) add cast time
B ) increase cost by x%
C) decrease dmg by x%
D) A combination of B & C
E) modify specific component x
F) other change x

you may also specify your unique solution and comments below......


doesnt need to be done with everything but 5 or so of these prior to any patch for big ticket items will surely give the appropriate information needed and will defuse the changes well in advance and if nothing else many were consulted and thus potential hurt feelings (lol) mainly avoided. Every platform has access to this forum.

Maybe what, a half an hours work every few months. No priest class necessary.


Ive analyzed your process and feedback is often too late/useless (depending on the item) since the changes are already made and are un-likely to be revisited during the cycle. For some things you need that information prior to starting so you can roll dodge some of these heavy attacks.

DocFrost72

ATomiX69 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• CAB_Life (console player!)
• cicisch
• Glorious
• NefasQS
• RebornZombie

console players I assume?

Judging by the chat here, level headed and knowledgeable players. I personally know one of them, and she's a brilliant raid lead for end game prog trials.

Sandman929

CAB_Life wrote: »

Hey hey! Really happy to participate in the program. I’ve been an ESO player since beta and I’ve spent about 2/3 of my life as a Tamrielian on console. I’m pretty chatty (about gaming, fitness, literature), so if you are too you can hit me up in Discord (PM for details), on the forums, on Reddit, or in the comment section of my YouTube channel—all under the handle CAB_Life.

All the best,
—C

Great to see someone from console land! All the best.

Sandman929

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As a general reminder, the goal of this program is to ensure your voice is being heard, and concerns are being relayed and discussed directly with the Dev Team.

If I might make a suggestion, another good way to make the community feel heard is to read and respond to posts relating to specific performance issues (not just general lag) and questions regarding progress on issues that have been acknowledged but seem to be in limbo for several months.

Odovacar

Glad to see a console player added to the program! Congrats and good luck @CAB_Life!


Maybe propose a built in combat metrics

Sandman929

Seraphayel wrote: »

Still the question, 10 reps and just 1 console player?

If they were "community reps" I'd be confused too, but they aren't. It's nice to have someone who will be able to relate to issues seen primarily on consoles (usually UI specific since we don't have add-ons) but there's nothing special about the classes on consoles. In fact, the PC community is in a better position to give detailed feedback thanks to their add-ons.

No_Division

CAB_Life wrote: »

No_Division wrote: »

Hashtag_ wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYI2uvwyE4

yikes

Reactive/chudan are outdated too. Their defenses are basically less effective against the 16k pen/1.8-1.9 CHD modifier meta in PvP:



Why pick 35% Mitigation that's valued at roughly the same as pariah/fort brass? Actually, vamp cloak beats out reactive because it's 100% uptime. My list includes Templar minor protection at the old cooldown so that might be higher now.

Most of the defense sets are flattened now with major protection and minor maim the last ones standing. Better to go full stats for extra healing/dodge rolls.

Why pick Reactive? This is a no CP battleground build (as are all of my videos). This is a tank build with resistances higher than cap to counter excessive pen and one that is focused on sustain and survival first. In the video, I specifically state the aforementioned as well as that I’m not going for kills—but kills are always nice! This build is built around buffing and passing defensive mitigation on to the sunshield and/ or using Reactive in lieu of break free. Templars also get minor protection every time they cast an aedric spear ability, and they’re doing that with every cast of the sunshield, which is inherent to the build, so that buff isn’t necessary. Chudan was chosen for it’s utility and convenience and not merely its defensive value, so that I could easily an extra skill on my bar. Reactive remains a valuable set as it offers health, stamina and stamina sustain and procs when someone is setting you up for a burst combo; it procs a lot in general and always when you need it most.

Now in all of my discussions with the community I am very careful about saying/ implying that ‘my way’ is a.) the only way to make a build b.) effective for everyone’s play-styles c.) the numerically efficient meta. I am also not the only rep that has an interest in PVP, and there are other people who represent those other play-styles. I respect other players and their interests and that is all I ask in turn. I don’t presume, either, that my specific interests/ play-style are gospel or ubiquitous.

I will never understand why people lock themselves into a single set of perceptions and values; you miss so much else of the world that way. While I think it’s fine to disagree, I believe in polite discourse where a measure common ground or difference of opinion is sought or achieved. I’m spending about an hour each morning of my personal and valued time going through threads here, on Reddit and in Discord and compiling what are the most common, reasonable and repeated pain points to ensure that those are known to ZOS—as that is my responsibility and the duty for which I was chosen. I am not paid for this and if you would like to have a constructive dialog, ideally approach it with the understanding that I am not here to push a personal agenda. I am here to relay information back and forth. To some that may be less interesting than having arguments about specific grievances though, which you will not get from me. I think I’ve said enough in this thread and I’ll leave any further commentary to my inbox. I have a work and a very sick cat to tend to, anyway.

Those of you with console-specific concerns feel free to message me.

Regards,
—C

P.S. Thank you for the salutations from those of you welcoming us aboard.

welcome to the program! Don't let my criticism distract from that message. But in PVP there are sets that used more than others for good reasons. Let me link each one in the order my list shows and let you know pros/cons of each:
- Base resists - the basic of all defenses is enough for some builds that push offense. The old saying "a good defense is a good offense" and this value includes things like protective and heavy armor (I just adjust my avg armor rating on the side).
- Impreg - crit resists are one of the few mitigations left that 1) impact the equation early but directly targeting crit hit damage modifers that boost dmg tooltips and 2) are not subtracted by vulnerability. But they nerfed this set so you only get 1900ish in purple. Still very useful but a few of us noticed its defense efficiency diminished after the nerf.
- Transmutation - same as impreg except 1200-1300 in purple. Technically a regen set since it has 2 pieces of 129 regen. Can be backbarred so you can fit an arena weapon or willpower front bar. It is highly debated this style of build crafting is BIS and the crit resists are applied to your team. Keep in mind everyone now has access to 1.80 to 1.90 CHD modifers, so even if you max out your CP/Impen traits without this set on, youll still take 40% extra dmg on crits lol.
- Wizard Reposte/Minor Maim - 2nd best mitigation value in the game. It multiplies against your targets dmg and according to the game isnt really mitigation. The game considers it a debuff directly to your target and thus is the first dmg reduction to happen. It also is exempt from being subtracted from vulnerabilities for this same reason. Wizard reposte still requires to be crit hit by a direct dmg ability, so it might not be as effective as say a NB's shade, shadowrend's AOE attack or SNB/DK applying maim to multiple targets. Wizard also has a line of SD and a line of mag recovery with 1pc health making it more flexible of a defense than say fort brass.
- Fort Brass - now that bleeds are impacted by resists, this set will return to the front of the list. Only downside is you trade stats for raw mitigation. But resistance isnt subtracted by vulnerability so resists are more efficent. Resists are penetrated and these days everyone is grabbing 16-22k penetration lol. But it is crafted and doesnt require alot of traits researched to gain access to crafting it.
- Armor master - same as fort brass but requires your armor skill to be used. Does have health in its bonuses so its more varies in stats than for brass.
- pariah - great set because it gives you like 2800 resistance at 100% health and its value at 70% health matches things like armor master/fort brass. It's kinda of an anti-execute set because at really low health youll have armor cap even with penetration lol. But the set works better if you have like 30k health to soak up some hits.
- blood spawn - the best 2pc monster set in the game, after the pirate skeleton nerfs. Gives regen, ultimate and has 6k resists. People can have a 90% uptime, but even at 50% the set is only slightly lower than fort brass. It might get nerfed though, because at 90% uptime the ultimate gain is double than major heroism at 75% uptime. But I hope it doesnt because the monster set audit was dumb due to it's failure to protect build diversity lol.
- 1pc pirate/1pc chudan - 5k resists at 100% uptime without wasting 5pc set. Beats out fort brass for that reason alone. And is considered more fair in fights since your armor isnt fighting/defending for you. Bislobo runs this, and no one has any issues with him (wolf pack!)
- reactive armor - 35% is strong, but its 30% uptime means it deals less overall mitigation over a fight than say minor protection at 100% uptime. Uptimes matter, and while you are taking less dmg while cc'd, you arent killing/tanking/healing anything while sitting in 3-6s of cc. Maybe if you stack GCD ignoring heals, but still its not an efficient set because of the proc condition.
- mighty chudan - great set if you have a terrible armor buff in your kit. So maybe NB or sorc; but everyone else has a better armor buff. For example, templar gets 480 regen from theirs as well as 8% healing done. You only take this set if you want to fit another skill or dont understand the benefit your armor buff gives.
- ironblood/vamp cloak - ironblood is bad; 30% major protection but 50% snare. You can use a gap closer to ignore the snare and all snares under that 50% are ignored. But you waste a 5pc and a skill slot which doesnt remove the snare entirely. Vamp cloak is 100% uptime on minor protection, which is great if you dont have it already on your skill (which is rare since everyone has this in some form or another). And minor vulnerability subtracts minor protection entirely so you take more dmg than someone running resists. But minor protection at 100% uptime beats out some of these armor resists sets.
- steadfast hero/pirate skeleton - major protection is the best mitigation hands down. BUT vulnerability subtracts from this buff. If you get hit with minor vul, then major protection is only 22% mitigation. If you are a vampire, then its only 5% if fighting against a MagDK/Fire staff user. Steadfast can be controlled by purges and pirate skeleton is going to be hit by major defile making it not efficient source anymore. Steadfast will be king next patch, assuming you can purge on the backbar, because it will let you fit an arena weapon front bar.
- Blocking - BLock is OP. Sorc running bound aegis + new immovable and SNB will have 100% dmg mitigation next patch if they dont nerf or change how block works lol. Look at my chart; even someone in minor protection with just blocking big hits can be just as tanky as someone who isnt. Much of this has to do with block mitigation sources outside of base block

And these sets have to deal with battlespirit. Which means everyone has 50% dmg reduction which flattens PVP masking some of the issues it has in the "tank" meta. Please communicate this to the devs; defense sets are mostly flat but block/battle-spirit/healing stacking/burst dmg is the overperforming condition in the "tank" meta. Actually i wouldnt call it a tank meta anymore, its a burst heal/dmg meta that pushes uninformed/inexperienced/lag-hating players to stack 3x defense sets and resulting in them not killing anything/learning the pvp mechanics which pushes them too suggest nerfs to things that don't really need them. It really muddles discussions and critique of game systems cannot stay clean in this way.

Hope you all can successfully get some good changes pushed to the devs!

grannas211

couldnt just let this *** die huh?

Chrlynsch

Nefas wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

As for PvE, t3hasiangod did a preatty good video on that subject, basically saying that there is simply no point in using it in PvE because even WW Berserker lost substantial amount of dps, so even a beginner-player on non-ww will get a better result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q0zVyDW1DY

From the video: "It's still a very viable build as you can see this is straight up light attacking with 2 active abilities.."

"Werewolves have seen a DPS nerf (just under 8-10% overall at least on a dummy)...73.9k (Scalebreaker) vs 79.9k (Elsweyr) about 6k DPS"

"It's an easy gateway into PvE but I would suggest trying out actual - well I don't wanna say the term actual - but more realistic stamina DPS builds. [on the topic of endgame PvE or simply PvE progression]"

Class reps tend to look at things only from one perspective. Either end game PvE raiding or PvP. Imho, they lack (at least most of them) the ability to look at stuff from a wider angle. From other perspective.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Who is WW class rep ? It feels like it needs one...

I'm the new Werewolf class rep you've wanted

In this video t3hasiangod was also using damage sets that are useable out of werewolf form, with a little tuning and weave improvement can he could get a few thousand more dps out of it (77k+). But if your intent is to run full werewolf in pve, Kena, Relequen, and Bloodmoon are still top dog and in scalebreaker can reach close to 84k dps on the Iron Atro.