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Make all pvp non cp?
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NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)
If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).
While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.
A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.
if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).
Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.
CP:CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.
NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.
Total Mit = 66.99%
nCP:CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%
NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%
198 dmg difference between the two lol.
While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.
1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage
10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)
So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.
Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697
CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.
Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.
So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.
Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.
Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.
defensive mitigation is entirely multiplicative, except in the instance that vulnerability is involved. the TTK is lower in nCP because everyone gases out more or doesn't have the ability to run more resists/defense without impacting their offensive stats. Resistance, block, maim, and crit resist are currently the most efficient sources of defenses now that vulnerabilities subtract from things like minor/major protection and evasion.
Check out the defense mitigation thread for that info.
Link? Thread I found says they are addictive. Except for a bug there for a bit with hard/ele defender and thick skinned that has since been fixed.Edited by NuarBlack on July 24, 2019 11:42PM0 -
bakermir✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.VaranisArano wrote: »No thanks.
I've tried No CP PVP and didnt really care for it. I prefer CP PVP.
Can we maybe accept that other people have other preferences and not try to remove game modes they like in the name of "balance"?
Same applies to faction lock.
It needs to be removed.EU PC SOTHA SIL/BAHLOKDAAN- DC * imperial stamdk/emperor magdk * twitch-bakermir
- DC * breton magsorc * twitch bakermir
- DC * orcerer * Tyro Tyro Tyro Tyro
- DC * altmer bomblade * Brings-you-democracy
<REMOVE FACTION LOCK>1 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.Im on the kill the cp system crusade,since it was implemented the game has gone worse.
Everytime something get nerfed for cp be pve/pvp is nocp that suffer for it the most.
Once they revamp/rework/replace CP with a good progression system maybe we can play the game in only one mode and not 3(cp pve,cp pvp,nocp pvp)1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No - Give reason please.Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).2 -
gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.No CP is just full of procs and stams. CP isnt a crutch, its a way of balance against cheese.Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language3 -
WaltherCarraway✭✭✭✭✭No - Give reason please.Bruh CP is a character based feature later added to the game...Back from my last hiatus. 2021 a new start.0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.No CP is just full of procs and stams. CP isnt a crutch, its a way of balance against cheese.
Kinda curious what procs you are talking about? The only viable proc sets left are actually mag, Caalurions and Overwhelming surge. And surge won't be viable after scale breaker patch. Viper, red mountain, way of fire, and sloads are used sure, but are far from meta now that they have been nerfed so much.2 -
No_Division✭✭✭No - Give reason please.No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)
If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).
While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.
A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.
if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).
Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.
CP:CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.
NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.
Total Mit = 66.99%
nCP:CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%
NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%
198 dmg difference between the two lol.
While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.
1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage
10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)
So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.
Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697
CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.
Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.
So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.
Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.
Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.
defensive mitigation is entirely multiplicative, except in the instance that vulnerability is involved. the TTK is lower in nCP because everyone gases out more or doesn't have the ability to run more resists/defense without impacting their offensive stats. Resistance, block, maim, and crit resist are currently the most efficient sources of defenses now that vulnerabilities subtract from things like minor/major protection and evasion.
Check out the defense mitigation thread for that info.
Link? Thread I found says they are addictive. Except for a bug there for a bit with hard/ele defender and thick skinned that has since been fixed.
Can you link the thread you found?
Heres mine:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
Lets get to the bottom of this!
0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.How about make BG CP,and eliminate the NO CP campaign. Across other platforms its dead anyway the only place in Cyrodiil that even has a pop during primetime is NA PC. I would play BGs if they were CP in fact the BG population would skyrocket if they allowed a CP BG.
No CP eliminates a ton of builds and pigeon toes you to certian builds. DoTs are OP in Non CP and they are going to get worse after the next update. Bleeds will be reduced yes but all other dots are increased.
I believe thes whole healing system and CP system needs adjusting that what really needs to happen. Performance is the killer of PVP atm and turns more people away from PVP then anything else.Edited by Durham on July 25, 2019 6:27PMPVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)
If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).
While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.
A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.
if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).
Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.
CP:CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.
NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.
Total Mit = 66.99%
nCP:CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%
NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%
198 dmg difference between the two lol.
While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.
1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage
10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)
So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.
Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697
CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.
Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.
So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.
Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.
Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.
defensive mitigation is entirely multiplicative, except in the instance that vulnerability is involved. the TTK is lower in nCP because everyone gases out more or doesn't have the ability to run more resists/defense without impacting their offensive stats. Resistance, block, maim, and crit resist are currently the most efficient sources of defenses now that vulnerabilities subtract from things like minor/major protection and evasion.
Check out the defense mitigation thread for that info.
Link? Thread I found says they are addictive. Except for a bug there for a bit with hard/ele defender and thick skinned that has since been fixed.
Can you link the thread you found?
Heres mine:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
Lets get to the bottom of this!
Found that one recently and I posed the question to Paul(the op). I'm hoping he will get back to me. As I agree that mitigation in general is multiplicative. That post lumps all cp mitigation into one category though. When something is multiplicative it matters what order it is calculated in. So that becomes a problem when it comes to cp as how does the game decide that? By the order you place points in stars? Or was an order of operations implemented for cp? Or is total cp mitigation additive together then multiplicative with other forms of mitigation? The last is what makes sense to me. This would make red and blue stars more comprable. Red being more powerful the less other forms of mitigation you have while decreasing to match blue stars the more, maybe even become less powerful if you really stack other forms.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/347576/selective-noncommutivity-of-warrior-cp/p1
That one is from 2017 highlighting a bug with warrior cp showing putting points in one order makes them additive while another order makes the multiplicative. The easiest way to fix such a bug is make them additive period. Second way would be to enforce an order of operations among cp stars. Which would be sloppy as that would affect relative value of the stars big time.Edited by NuarBlack on July 25, 2019 7:07PM0 -
No_Division✭✭✭No - Give reason please.No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Division wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »No_Divison wrote: »they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)
If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).
While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.
A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.
if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).
Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.
CP:CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.
NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.
Total Mit = 66.99%
nCP:CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%
NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%
198 dmg difference between the two lol.
While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.
1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage
10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)
So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.
Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697
CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.
Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.
So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.
Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.
Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.
defensive mitigation is entirely multiplicative, except in the instance that vulnerability is involved. the TTK is lower in nCP because everyone gases out more or doesn't have the ability to run more resists/defense without impacting their offensive stats. Resistance, block, maim, and crit resist are currently the most efficient sources of defenses now that vulnerabilities subtract from things like minor/major protection and evasion.
Check out the defense mitigation thread for that info.
Link? Thread I found says they are addictive. Except for a bug there for a bit with hard/ele defender and thick skinned that has since been fixed.
Can you link the thread you found?
Heres mine:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
Lets get to the bottom of this!
Found that one recently and I posed the question to Paul(the op). I'm hoping he will get back to me. As I agree that mitigation in general is multiplicative. That post lumps all cp mitigation into one category though. When something is multiplicative it matters what order it is calculated in. So that becomes a problem when it comes to cp as how does the game decide that? By the order you place points in stars? Or was an order of operations implemented for cp? Or is total cp mitigation additive together then multiplicative with other forms of mitigation? The last is what makes sense to me. This would make red and blue stars more comprable. Red being more powerful the less other forms of mitigation you have while decreasing to match blue stars the more, maybe even become less powerful if you really stack other forms.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/347576/selective-noncommutivity-of-warrior-cp/p1
That one is from 2017 highlighting a bug with warrior cp showing putting points in one order makes them additive while another order makes the multiplicative. The easiest way to fix such a bug is make them additive period. Second way would be to enforce an order of operations among cp stars. Which would be sloppy as that would affect relative value of the stars big time.
yea that was different, is a bug, and we havent retested since 2017 to confirm it is still a bug. The mitigation should be multiplicative, which paul mentions in his examples on his thread. But currently tested, everything should be multiplicative and it really doesnt matter what order, EXCEPT, some types of mitigation are done first.
For example, crit resists are the first to be used, because the dmg (if it crits) has to determine its crit hit dmg. Then Minor Maim, because it impacts the dmg tooltip directly because its a debuff on your target and not true mitigation. But that only means its taking first chunk out of the dmg and isnt subject to heavy diminishing returns the more mitigation you stack. If there are no vulnerabilties, the rest of the mitigation is multiplied against the dmg until a shield is introduced. Shield subtract from the dmg after its mitigated by % and armor, and then block is next to reduce the dmg. Base block is multiplied and any additional block mitigation is ADDED before being applied multiplicatively.
Paul is still testing CP in its entirety.0 -
Diarf✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.CP is for casuals.
Too much healing, sustain and dmg.
They should reduce the percentages in CP Tree. Alternatively, they should completely change values and what they do.4 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No - Give reason please.I cannot deal with the unkillable tanky builds with infinite sustain that seem to dominate the no-CP campaigns. I'm sorry, but a player should NOT be able to survive a group of 10+ experienced players while roll dodging endlessly and still being able to turn around and kill someone with relative ease.0 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes - Give reason please.SidraWillowsky wrote: »I cannot deal with the unkillable tanky builds with infinite sustain that seem to dominate the no-CP campaigns. I'm sorry, but a player should NOT be able to survive a group of 10+ experienced players while roll dodging endlessly and still being able to turn around and kill someone with relative ease.
These builds are also fairly common on the CP campaigns. They're just heavily outnumbered by the hordes of casual and PvE builds that tend to avoid non-CP.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No - Give reason please.JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.1 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
1 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.Edited by Lucky28 on July 28, 2019 2:45AMInvictus0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
Edited by killingspreeb16_ESO on July 28, 2019 4:52AM2 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.Cp fights is just build a generic tank and either win via sheer numbers or run around and dump ults with 5 other people because is the literal only way you can kill people. With the amount of cross healing and off heals about.
All cp does is enable people to always have stupid high stats/ hp/ dmg and sustain.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...3 -
No - Give reason please.leepalmer95 wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »I understand a lot of people really crutch on cp in pvp so they can run unkillable builds in large groups, some ppl really need the advantage max cp gives them because despite having 1k hours in pvp they have only zerged and are potatoes.
Resources management, building enough so you aren't melted while scaling some dmg is so much harder in non cp.
In cp you can run any potato build and basically be unkillable 1v1.
what about the low level CP ppl that melt through zergs and destroy ball groups or 1vX? they dont have max CP but manage just fine
You can give rare examples all you want.
Doesn't change the fact that if you have max cp over someone who is missing several hundreds you straight up just have a big advantage. More dmg, more sustain, healing etc...
What would you say to any console new players? There is 1 active campaign on my server, the 30 day cp one. Everything else is dead. Sorry you need to go farm cp for 6 months then come back?
One of the reasons its dead is because of cp, when the pop is so low (mainly because console performance is so bad the games unplayable) it's not going to increase when theres a big looming cp grind for them to even start becoming competitive.
then dont play on *** platfrom lol
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.Swiftfox_Bouncyface wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »I understand a lot of people really crutch on cp in pvp so they can run unkillable builds in large groups, some ppl really need the advantage max cp gives them because despite having 1k hours in pvp they have only zerged and are potatoes.
Resources management, building enough so you aren't melted while scaling some dmg is so much harder in non cp.
In cp you can run any potato build and basically be unkillable 1v1.
what about the low level CP ppl that melt through zergs and destroy ball groups or 1vX? they dont have max CP but manage just fine
You can give rare examples all you want.
Doesn't change the fact that if you have max cp over someone who is missing several hundreds you straight up just have a big advantage. More dmg, more sustain, healing etc...
What would you say to any console new players? There is 1 active campaign on my server, the 30 day cp one. Everything else is dead. Sorry you need to go farm cp for 6 months then come back?
One of the reasons its dead is because of cp, when the pop is so low (mainly because console performance is so bad the games unplayable) it's not going to increase when theres a big looming cp grind for them to even start becoming competitive.
then dont play on *** platfrom lol
Well it wasn't obviously like this when released its low pop is a result of console being forgotten, no quality of life updates. Game has ran super bad for so long and yet nothing is done. I see people on pc complain about small fps drops and bits of lag when thats what can console has been like for years.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
and that also makes No CP much much easier than CP pvp. you have to be a hell of a lot faster taking advantage of openings than you do in no CP.Edited by Lucky28 on July 29, 2019 3:35PMInvictus0 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
and that also makes No CP much much easier than CP pvp. you have to be a hell of a lot faster taking advantage of openings than you do in no CP.
You said there's no difference in the skill required and now you're suggesting that there's more skill involved in taking someone down in CP, make your mind up.
Also, in that same vein it's just as easy to say that CP is much easier than no-CP because you are afforded much more time when you make an error but the bottom line is, errors should be punished.Edited by BNOC on July 29, 2019 4:08PMvMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
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569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
Not sure why people want to go all militant and force everyone to play like them because the blame CP for their problem when Zos provides the option for PvP with and without CP.
I think it would be hilarious if in PvE CP capped players blamed CP for their lack of damage or dying all the time.0 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Yes - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
Not sure why people want to go all militant and force everyone to play like them because the blame CP for their problem when Zos provides the option for PvP with and without CP.
I think it would be hilarious if in PvE CP capped players blamed CP for their lack of damage or dying all the time.
Not sure how people are so blind to not see the problem with cp.
Class,food,set etc get nerfed everytime because of cp but you hamsters keep get fooled about this fake progression and keep thinking youre char get better when every update something get nerfed.
I dunno why you don't even read,i also said that everytime something get nerfed because of cp food/gear whatever who is the player that get the short end of the stick?the one that play nocp.
Now imagine if this cp system get removed and replaced with a good system where you have to make choice and not everything is a stat increase to personilize your char?
They can add a new perks every X patch instead of increase the cap and then nerf everything again.
Also lol at the guy that before say both take the same skill and then say cp take more skill, can't even be coherent.Edited by killingspreeb16_ESO on July 29, 2019 7:38PM0 -
Bam_Bam✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.leepalmer95 wrote: »Most of the problems in pvp come from Cp just breaking the game. And cp isn't needed in pvp at all, there is nothing to progress. May even revitalise pvp a bit as new players would be more inclined to try pvp without a big cp wall in front of them, especially true on console where non cp is dead and there is only really 1 active campaign.
I know non cp has its own problems but it's generally better for pvp balance and if there is only non cp it will be easier for zos to balance it, rather that balance both.
No.
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Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No - Give reason please.No need to, there is Cp and Non Cp for everyone already. Problem solved
Nice troll thread for a moot point since ^
0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
Not sure why people want to go all militant and force everyone to play like them because the blame CP for their problem when Zos provides the option for PvP with and without CP.
I think it would be hilarious if in PvE CP capped players blamed CP for their lack of damage or dying all the time.
Not sure how people are so blind to not see the problem with cp.
Class,food,set etc get nerfed everytime because of cp but you hamsters keep get fooled about this fake progression and keep thinking youre char get better when every update something get nerfed.
I dunno why you don't even read,i also said that everytime something get nerfed because of cp food/gear whatever who is the player that get the short end of the stick?the one that play nocp.
Now imagine if this cp system get removed and replaced with a good system where you have to make choice and not everything is a stat increase to personilize your char?
They can add a new perks every X patch instead of increase the cap and then nerf everything again.
Also lol at the guy that before say both take the same skill and then say cp take more skill, can't even be coherent.
Your comments, or should I say personal attacks since it is mostly trying to belittle those that disagree with you. They make little sense because I am not suggesting CP should not be changed which is exactly what you are strongly and falsely implying.
I have clearly stated that we already have a choice and as such there is no justifiable reason to force the majority of the community to what the minority has chosen as their preferred PvP campaign style.
I would also suggest that if you actually have something real to say in reply that it is best to avoid such petty and empty insults as they tend to indicate a lack of a real basis for an argument.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭No - Give reason please.killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »JumpmanLane wrote: »Cp is just one aspect of your build. People who decry cp don’t have much or aren’t very good at the game. (Or not as good as they think).
Very good observation.
There also may be some that sort of do PvE and don’t want to be bothered with changing it. However, none of them are serious raiders as fhat group changes CP based on the trial their in anyhow.
rofl imagine saying playing with no cp is for less skilled when if anything ir more like the opposite,must be hard playing with extra regen reduce cost on roll dodge/break free etc
you act like other people don't also have CP..... both arguments are actually *** braindead, there really is no difference in the skill required for either, it's just different.
So?
That's dosen't change that cp allow more room for error since they cover for many weakness of a build and let people survive much easier,while in no cp youre actually punished for errors.
and that also makes No CP much much easier than CP pvp. you have to be a hell of a lot faster taking advantage of openings than you do in no CP.
You said there's no difference in the skill required and now you're suggesting that there's more skill involved in taking someone down in CP, make your mind up.
Also, in that same vein it's just as easy to say that CP is much easier than no-CP because you are afforded much more time when you make an error but the bottom line is, errors should be punished.
I don't need to make up my mind, I said they're different, and that's one of the ways they are different. It's easier to deplete people's stamina in No CP. which is the main reason i prefer CP over No CP, i prefer fights to be fast-paced throughout.Invictus0