Make all pvp non cp?

Amdar_Godkiller

No - Give reason please.

I'd rather get rid of no CP PVP so that PVP can actually be balanced to some degree with PVE.

mursie

Yes - Give reason please.

I feel for the people that love their crutch points. I get it, you worked hard for that shiny high CP number and who wants to be clapped by some xbox cp 180 transfer when you're sporting a CP number in the 1,000's.

but i digress, the issue with CP and No-CP is that it fragments an already small pvp population. Simply put, CP needs to go in order to build a healthy pvp community that doesn't have paywalls, time-gate crutch point walls, and other non-sense that prevents healthy balanced competition amongst players.

lukoi

No - Give reason please.

I prefer CP enabled PvP and dont have a max CP character (only recently hit the 500s).

Additionally, it seems clear to me in the NA hours that I play in Cyro that more than enough people similarly prefer to play in CP enabled based on queues.

Obviously its purely anecdotal but Ive never seen the PC Cyro queues for nonCP higher than CP enabled.

It doesnt hurt the game to have both options, as the server limitations seem to exist regardless. Cramming even more people into nonCP servers wouldnt help Im sure, and the second option of repurposing excisting CP to nonCP services what huge demogrpahic of players.

NonCP almost always seems to have room available vice CP. There isnt some poor, marginalized group waiting in the wings, trying fruitlessly to get into nonCP Cyro for hours on end. My "home" guild uses nonCP for our pvp events and we almost never have a wait.

What would be the upside in doing this? None anyone has shown thus far.

leepalmer95

Yes - Give reason please.

lukoi wrote: »

I prefer CP enabled PvP and dont have a max CP character (only recently hit the 500s).

Additionally, it seems clear to me in the NA hours that I play in Cyro that more than enough people similarly prefer to play in CP enabled based on queues.

Obviously its purely anecdotal but Ive never seen the PC Cyro queues for nonCP higher than CP enabled.

It doesnt hurt the game to have both options, as the server limitations seem to exist regardless. Cramming even more people into nonCP servers wouldnt help Im sure, and the second option of repurposing excisting CP to nonCP services what huge demogrpahic of players.

NonCP almost always seems to have room available vice CP. There isnt some poor, marginalized group waiting in the wings, trying fruitlessly to get into nonCP Cyro for hours on end. My "home" guild uses nonCP for our pvp events and we almost never have a wait.

What would be the upside in doing this? None anyone has shown thus far.

Less balance issues, less unkillable tanks, less heal meta etc...

All cp does it bring imbalance to the game and especially pvp, it allows people to run weird high dmg, high tank builds.

NuarBlack

Yes - Give reason please.

I find it funny that everyone points to campaign populations. Completely oblivious to the fact that cyro is not the main form of non cp pvp, BGs are. Cyro is hot garbage, always has been. Non CP pvpers abandoned that RP mode a long time ago. BGs are the superior mode hands down and on ps4 NA they are popping. Que times are almost instant and I don't have to play horse simulator on top of it. At least on ps4 BG population is probably similar or higher than cp cyro especially since they have decreased the pop cap multiple times over the years.

ChunkyCat

Yes - Give reason please.

Because I said so.

lukoi

No - Give reason please.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

lukoi wrote: »

I prefer CP enabled PvP and dont have a max CP character (only recently hit the 500s).

Additionally, it seems clear to me in the NA hours that I play in Cyro that more than enough people similarly prefer to play in CP enabled based on queues.

Obviously its purely anecdotal but Ive never seen the PC Cyro queues for nonCP higher than CP enabled.

It doesnt hurt the game to have both options, as the server limitations seem to exist regardless. Cramming even more people into nonCP servers wouldnt help Im sure, and the second option of repurposing excisting CP to nonCP services what huge demogrpahic of players.

NonCP almost always seems to have room available vice CP. There isnt some poor, marginalized group waiting in the wings, trying fruitlessly to get into nonCP Cyro for hours on end. My "home" guild uses nonCP for our pvp events and we almost never have a wait.

What would be the upside in doing this? None anyone has shown thus far.

Less balance issues, less unkillable tanks, less heal meta etc...

All cp does it bring imbalance to the game and especially pvp, it allows people to run weird high dmg, high tank builds.

Those are reasons to change their balancing methodologies, not remove the mode. Additionally, you cannot be sure what is prompting balancw moves by Zen as they are largely mum on what drives their decisions.

And again, no one forces anyone to play CP enabled (altho clearly many prefer it for AvAvA), so you arent presentimg a reason to delete the mode. Clearly people enjoy it. You dont, and you dont have to play it. How does leaving it in bring inbalance issues? Thats a claim based on no data from the developers, not some sort of fact.

All of the builds you seem to be worried about in CO enabled btw, can be ignored/countered in the siege centric play that AvAvA is predicated on anyway, so let people run em. Especially since all sides can run them equally.

WuffyCerulei

No - Give reason please.

No, because I just simply prefer CP pvp. We should be able to make a choice between CP and nonCP, like we do now.
And I wanna use my CP to my advantage. None of that BuT cHaMpIoN pOiNtS aRe A cRuTcH BS.

MaxJrFTW

No - Give reason please.

The only reason why i do no cp pvp is because bgs allow you to jump right into the action. You don't have to spend 30 minutes running around like an idiot in search of a decent fight, just to end up getting run over by a zerg group. On top of that is the bad performance of cp cyrodiil. Bgs make no cp bearable because you always have a team at your back and plenty of structures to los.

No cp is not real pvp. Dmg is too high, you can kill people before they even react. Landing a dswing pretty much guarantees a kill, and you run out of resources instantly.

sharquez

No - Give reason please.

Players should always in all cases have a choice. as to if they want to play with or without CP.

Derra

No - Give reason please.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

No thanks.

I've tried No CP PVP and didnt really care for it. I prefer CP PVP.

Can we maybe accept that other people have other preferences and not try to remove game modes they like in the name of "balance"?

What didn't you like about it compared to cp pvp?

Same reason for me.

I didn´t like that the game has certain abilities and sets clearly designed with CP in mind aswell as some adjusted to CP stats which limits build diversity in noCP.

Rianai

Yes - Give reason please.

Derra wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

No thanks.

I've tried No CP PVP and didnt really care for it. I prefer CP PVP.

Can we maybe accept that other people have other preferences and not try to remove game modes they like in the name of "balance"?

What didn't you like about it compared to cp pvp?

Same reason for me.

I didn´t like that the game has certain abilities and sets clearly designed with CP in mind aswell as some adjusted to CP stats which limits build diversity in noCP.

The whole idea about removing CP from PvP is to be able to balance arround noCP better. As it is they can't balance arround either without screwing the other (assuming the devs had a clue about PvP balance to begin with ...). Which is probably a reason why both have their issues.

Ofc just removing CP PvP and keeping noCP exactly as it is now, would be pretty pointless.

Unified_Gaming

No - Give reason please.

I don't mine the cp being removed from damage or defense tbh as they usually counteract one another and allow people who dont get the system to be penalised. With that said, I think the sustain cp is needed for pvp on a magtoon especially and so if they did then I'd like the green cp or the benefits just added as a flat buff to character's.
Dan

No_Division

No - Give reason please.

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

NuarBlack

Yes - Give reason please.

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

No_Division

No - Give reason please.

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).

Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.

CP:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.

NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.

Total Mit = 66.99%

nCP:

CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%

NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%

198 dmg difference between the two lol.

Arca94

No - Give reason please.

Making your point about why all PvP should be no CP is fine, but then blatantly dismissing anyone who prefers CP by making sweeping statements like 'People just like their CP crutch' is a bit over the top. I could quite easily say that no CP players crutch on proc sets (which I know is also a sweeping statment and not entirely true). I personally play CP because I much prefer the longer more drawn out fighting styles and hate proc sets like Red Mountain and Skoria.

Point is both are flawed in their own ways and I agree that CP does need reworking to be more balanced in PvP. But completely removing one in favour of the other, especially when it is the more popular one in question, shouldn't be a solution.

No_Division

No - Give reason please.

Arca94 wrote: »

Making your point about why all PvP should be no CP is fine, but then blatantly dismissing anyone who prefers CP by making sweeping statements like 'People just like their CP crutch' is a bit over the top. I could quite easily say that no CP players crutch on proc sets (which I know is also a sweeping statment and not entirely true). I personally play CP because I much prefer the longer more drawn out fighting styles and hate proc sets like Red Mountain and Skoria.

Point is both are flawed in their own ways and I agree that CP does need reworking to be more balanced in PvP. But completely removing one in favour of the other, especially when it is the more popular one in question, shouldn't be a solution.

its funny because the only "crutch" it gives is extra stamina to light armor users and 4-5k extra max stats. Otherwise the dmg taken/given is largely the same between the two modes (if built/cheesed right).

React

Yes - Give reason please.

Asking this question on the forums is setting yourself up for disaster, if you're for removing CP from Pvp. The players here are mainly casual, class/spec biased, and not actually aware of how the game functions differently in the two environments.

At this point in the game's life, with 810 CP points and the longest lasting tankiest meta we've ever been in, the easiest way to balance things would be to take CP out. CP PvP is disgraceful now. The amount of mitigation, sustain, and healing you get from CP and sets is completely outweighing the damage you get from the same sources, resulting in low tier players becoming unkillable versus high tier players.

There is a very clear balance issue when a player with 6k+ pvp hours using a full damage setup cannot kill a player with 50 pvp hours on a healer or tank 1v1, at all. This wasn't an issue back when CP was in the 500's, when if you ran a damage setup you would ALWAYS kill these players, either through them running out of sustain or by them getting punished for standing in your face trying to tank all of your damage. Now, these players with little to no experience can simply throw on a few defensive sets, stack their BLUE OFFENSIVE CP INTO BLESSED AND ELFBORN/PRECISE STRIKES, and use 1 ability every 3-5 seconds while basically laughing at your attempts to kill them. I'm serious - there have been soooo many occasions as of late where I'll have a healer or tank literally standing still, not blocking, not breaking CC's with 30k health and sets like reactive, troll king, pirate skeleton, etc who will pop 1 dragons blood or 1 breath of life and be back at full health, then they'll start meditating IN YOUR FACE WHILE CC IMMUNE WHILE FULLY UNKILLABLE.

In no-cp this isn't possible. These builds literally do not function without their CP. They cannot provide effective off healing, they cannot sustain a pure defensive rotation, and they can't facetank damage endlessly with no consequence. In no-cp you win by skillfully using your abilities and mobility, while running a combination of damage and sustain. It is a truly balanced environment where the ONLY noticeable outliers are damage dealing and healing proc sets.

Additionally, on console no-cp doesn't lag like CP does. During the rare event where we see large populations in the no-cp campaigns (last years midyear mayhem, the anniversary event where questers invaded the no-cp camp, etc) you can be at a keep fight with 50+ people there and you won't lag. You'll be able to use abilities, weave and animation cancel. In that same fight in CP, you'll have 5 FPS, massive delays on all abilities, etc.

The unfortunate truth is the vast majority of players on eso are casual, and the casuals prefer being unkillable to being able to kill something - they'll simply increase their group size or deploy siege to make up their damage. As long as this is the case there is no way ZOS will remove CP. The only hope is that they do a massive overhaul to the system, which doesn't seem likely either with how little they invest into PvP.

Rianai

Yes - Give reason please.

No_Divison wrote: »

Arca94 wrote: »

Making your point about why all PvP should be no CP is fine, but then blatantly dismissing anyone who prefers CP by making sweeping statements like 'People just like their CP crutch' is a bit over the top. I could quite easily say that no CP players crutch on proc sets (which I know is also a sweeping statment and not entirely true). I personally play CP because I much prefer the longer more drawn out fighting styles and hate proc sets like Red Mountain and Skoria.

Point is both are flawed in their own ways and I agree that CP does need reworking to be more balanced in PvP. But completely removing one in favour of the other, especially when it is the more popular one in question, shouldn't be a solution.

its funny because the only "crutch" it gives is extra stamina to light armor users and 4-5k extra max stats. Otherwise the dmg taken/given is largely the same between the two modes (if built/cheesed right).

The biggest difference between CP and noCP are the various cost reductions to mostly defensive moves and the better healing because those things don't get cancelled out by anything unlike dmg and mitigation modifiers.

Imryll

I've been wondering if their re-imagining of CP would make separate CP and non-CP campaigns unnecessary. I don't think there's much point in asking whether all campaigns should be no CP until that is resolved.

I play no CP personally, but have no objection to there being other options.

NuarBlack

Yes - Give reason please.

No_Divison wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).

Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.

CP:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.

NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.

Total Mit = 66.99%

nCP:

CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%

NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%

198 dmg difference between the two lol.

While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.

1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage

10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)

So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.

Vapirko

Yes - Give reason please.

grannas211 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

There’s no question that no CP has better performance and that CP PvP is just bogging down the whole server. Plus there are too many campaigns. There should be a 30 day, 7 day and the IC campaign all no CP. Performance would up, pops would be up and it’s a win win. People don’t like no CP because they die faster but they’ll adapt.

Better perfomance because no one is in it

They did that test a while back and came to the conclusion it had no effect.

Why is it always the No-CP people trying to force their way onto to the masses?

@grannas211 not even a little true. I’m talking 3 bars to pop locked. I’ve played CP and no CP full time for several years now. I might ask you why CP people insist on jam packing into Vivec when you can’t even activate your skills half the time. I’ve played both extensively and there’s no question.

idk

No - Give reason please.

Turelus wrote: »

I am in the "make the whole game no CP" crowd. The game was better before it (IMO).

Zos did not think CP through very well to begin with. If you recall the only cap was the full 3600 CP and Zos stated they expected the average player to reach that cap in less than 2 years. I forget exactly how many months they said. The original vet ranks were just as poorly thought out.

CP has been nerfed more than once since then and I am not even talking about the sliding cap that was implemented.

The issue is Zos seemed to understand one thing. Players do not like having what they worked for taken away so removing the vet ranks without giving us something in return was not a great idea. However Zos avoided the simple and easy to manage solution. Just swap the vet ranks to normal levels and be done with it.

In the end that is still the better solution. 10 levels per CP gear wise or 10 lvls per 100 CP pointes of the current cap and tac it onto the lvl 50. Done, simple and easy to manage.

EtTuBrutus

No - Give reason please.

Cp is more fun bc you can fill more gaps in your build.

kylewwefan

No - Give reason please.

Them resource guards really need to be toned down a bit.

No_Division

No - Give reason please.

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).

Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.

CP:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.

NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.

Total Mit = 66.99%

nCP:

CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%

NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%

198 dmg difference between the two lol.

While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.

1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage

10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)

So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.

Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697

CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.

Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.

So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.

Marcus684

Yes - Give reason please.

CP was simply a way for ZOS to give maxed-out players something to grind to keep them playing. At present, all it’s doing is dividing up the dwindling PvP community and placing extra load on their servers. Unfortunately, if they were to dump it they’d probably lose a big portion of remaining veteran players, who would feel like their efforts at gaining CP were wasted.

NuarBlack

Yes - Give reason please.

No_Division wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).

Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.

CP:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.

NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.

Total Mit = 66.99%

nCP:

CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%

NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%

198 dmg difference between the two lol.

While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.

1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage

10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)

So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.

Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697

CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.

Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.

So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.

Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.

Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.

No_Division

No - Give reason please.

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Division wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

No_Divison wrote: »

they have the opportunity to make CP a more in depth game system. TO pass that up, is like passing up making pvp maps more fluid/accessible like an FPS game because some nerd wants to "dominate" (ie when IC upper got changed so the respawns were tied to flag ownership, respawn camps removed from game resulting in more emp keep fights which increased lag, etc.)

If redoing CP means a pseudo spell craft system comes about, then im all for it. More options = more diversity in play and thus less reliance on cheese (unless you are salty EU players, then good luck playing in that stale meta lol).

While this would be ideal it won't happen. The last CP restructure still gets grumbled about even by pvpers even though it was healthy since it was part of what eliminated perma blockers and made you have to think about sustain at least a little. And in order to make CP the system you are talking about with real tradeoffs would send PVEers and current CP crutchers into tantrums. Cause if it was done right it would just expand the way you think about your build in no cp to cp. That in order to get defense or sustain you'd have to sacrifice damage and vice a versa. It would be more of a horizontal system instead of the vertical progression system needed to keep the pvers happy. The problem isn't so much that cp and non cp have to be balanced as it is that pvp cp and pve cp have to be balanced. It's the reason why no cp feels more balanced because the lack of cp gives it a one removed from pve.

A separate battle spirit system that was strictly horizontal would be better for pvp. Something that never increases your raw power as your rank it up just gives you more diversity in build options. Similar to Destiny one's subclass system.

if you do the numbers, the dmg mitigation is largely the same/balanced between the two modes. Difference being less max stats means builds are less efficent in nCP and require larger sacrifices when building a toon. While that might be amazing, I think that's lazy and should never replace implementation of actual solutions/game design because it results in inflation of items that are too OP (proc sets, bleeds, punishment of builds that dont have stam to dodge/block, etc). Like when they added battlespirit; it saved them time in balancing the game at the time but resulting in a flat game experience that we are still trying to deal with in regards to balance (ie wings gives 50% dmg mitigation on range, but add in battlespirit and a 15k attack will hit for 3k without adding armor/CP mitigation into the mix).

Here's the values looking at wizard reposte as an example:
Wizard Reposte (with 15k armor only):
2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) When you take Critical Damage, you apply Minor Maim to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their damage done by 15%.

CP:

CRIT (1.415 MOD):
15000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.5+(10/100)+(20/100)+(10/100)-(3300/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 18041.25 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
18041 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 5934.

NO CRIT:
15000 *(1-(15)/100) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 12750 * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
12750 * (1.08)*(.73) *(.91)*(0.50)*(0.917) = 4194.

Total Mit = 66.99%

nCP:

CRIT (1.434 MOD):
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1.7)-(1806/68/100)) * (1+(8-0)/100) = 13,407.9? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
13,407.9? * (1.08) = 14480
14480 * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 6,132 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.6519%

NO CRIT:
11000 *(1-(15)/100)*(1+(8-0)/100) = 9,350? * 1.08 (SPILLOVER FROM VUL/MIT)
9,350 * (1.08) = 10,098?
10,098? * (0.50)*(0.84695) = 4,276 = FINAL DMG
TOTAL MIT: 57.655%

198 dmg difference between the two lol.

While the difference is minimal when it comes to mitigation from gear it is been known for quite some time the red cp stars out strip the blue by a significant margin cause of the order of operations on the calculations.

1000 dmage × 10% blue star = 1100 damage

10% mitigation from red star then makes that damage drop to 990 (1100× 0.9 = 990)

So the problem isn't necessarily gear it is CP directly. CP is all percentage increases. It can't therefore change discrepancies between gear and classes, only amplify them. The only exception is the raw stats cp gives as they are not a percentage.

Opposite of what you say. The CP stars boost the tooltip and the mitigation is based on the tooltip but because of that aspect CP reduction alone results in more dmg taken than nCP:
Jabs tooltip with 23% thaum/13% ele expert = 3963
Jabs without any CP allocated but still in CP camp = 2914
Jabs in nCP = 2697

CP (20% thaum, 10% ele defender, battlespirit):
3963 * 0.5 * 0.8*0.9 = 1426
If you add 20% armor after penetration it drops to 1140.

Compared to nCP:
2697*0.5* = 1348
with Armor = 1078.

So it seems nCP takes less dmg than CP. Yet CP is the scapegoat? Nope, the extra stats from CP allows you to add more armor/percentages outside the system. And don't get me started on block, because its OP lol.

Clearly something is off about your testing cause TTK is way lower in no cp than cp. And it's not 10-15% healing or a few thousand stats. You also can stack resist and crit resist which you blatantly ignore yet try to count penetration.

Either that or ZoS is bad at math(which they have screwed up before). But I thought they ran an audit and made all cp additive. Your calculations are multiplicative. So if they were successful in their audit you are spreading misinformation by throwing out multiplicative calculations.

defensive mitigation is entirely multiplicative, except in the instance that vulnerability is involved. the TTK is lower in nCP because everyone gases out more or doesn't have the ability to run more resists/defense without impacting their offensive stats. Resistance, block, maim, and crit resist are currently the most efficient sources of defenses now that vulnerabilities subtract from things like minor/major protection and evasion.

Check out the defense mitigation thread for that info.