PS4 NA guild traders raising weekly fee to 20k

SoLooney

Traders raise their prices so they can sell the gold and pay for their groceries

RusevCrush

If you're part of a cap city guild and think 20k is a lot of gold then you're probably not a good fit for that guild.

dotme

I mean, it costs what it costs - but I'm confused about why the change requires a rate increase? I understand that guilds can now bid on multiple traders, but don't they get refunded on the ones they lose? They still only end up with one at the end, right?

I'll pay the dues because to me they're worth it (I love my trader guild) - I'm just not understanding the underlying issue I guess.

Flaminir

dotme wrote: »

I mean, it costs what it costs - but I'm confused about why the change requires a rate increase? I understand that guilds can now bid on multiple traders, but don't they get refunded on the ones they lose? They still only end up with one at the end, right?

I'll pay the dues because to me they're worth it (I love my trader guild) - I'm just not understanding the underlying issue I guess.

@dotme Ok so there are several issues, but to summarise the main two very briefly:

1. The guilds may get the gold refunded on all the backup bids they lose, but they have to still have the gold to place each bid in the first place. ZoS have done a crazy and taken each bid seperatley rather than just the highest bid and giving you a refund on the difference if you end up with one of the lower bids as your winning bid for that week. So all but the biggest wealthiest guilds will have to make a big buffer of gold to use the multi-bid system to pay for all these bids up front.

2. With only one bid you had to be careful.... with ten you don't! And there will be alot of people trying to take spots and test the market. This will lead to guilds in lots of locations flipping traders more often.
As soon as a trader is displaced then the displaced guild will then likely displace another.. and another... all the way to the lowest tier. And what happens when you lose your guild trader bid? Yep... you bid higher the following week to get it back!
Thus starts the bid spiral... and increasing costs across the board!

So increased bid costs mean the guild has to find the cost from somewhere. Some guilds are building a warchest already to cope with the increased costs of multiple bids, and the increased cost of the winning bid when the market volatility kicks in.

dotme

Flaminir wrote: »

@dotme Ok so there are several issues, but to summarise the main two very briefly:

1. The guilds may get the gold refunded on all the backup bids they lose, but they have to still have the gold to place each bid in the first place. ZoS have done a crazy and taken each bid seperatley rather than just the highest bid and giving you a refund on the difference if you end up with one of the lower bids as your winning bid for that week. So all but the biggest wealthiest guilds will have to make a big buffer of gold to use the multi-bid system to pay for all these bids up front.

2. With only one bid you had to be careful.... with ten you don't! And there will be alot of people trying to take spots and test the market. This will lead to guilds in lots of locations flipping traders more often.
As soon as a trader is displaced then the displaced guild will then likely displace another.. and another... all the way to the lowest tier. And what happens when you lose your guild trader bid? Yep... you bid higher the following week to get it back!
Thus starts the bid spiral... and increasing costs across the board!

So increased bid costs mean the guild has to find the cost from somewhere. Some guilds are building a warchest already to cope with the increased costs of multiple bids, and the increased cost of the winning bid when the market volatility kicks in.

@Flaminir Thanks! It all makes a lot more sense now. Odd decision on the part of ZOS to structure this the way they did. Not the first odd decision they've made though

Kingslayer513

reoskit wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Maxx7410 wrote: »

In pc now is normal for any decente trade guild to pay 20k+ per week

I'm in high end trading guilds on PC NA and all of them simply have minimum sales requirements. And so far none of mine have raised their min sales req. Don't know what you're talking about.

A couple points here:
1. Consoles cannot see sales data the way we do on PC; they don't have addons to make the data consumable. Therefore, they cannot use sales minimums as a requirement; they can impose dues, paid to an officer or guild bank.
(Console people, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

2. I've heard of plenty of trade guilds on PCNA upping their preexisting requirements (dues/minimums), or introducing them where they didn't already exist. Not all, certainly, but it is happening.


Edit: typo.

I'm aware of that. I specifically replied to a post claiming that on PC paying 20k+ a week is normal now for any decent trade guild. Addons are implied.

therift

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

therift wrote: »

"We avoided making that change prior to the multi-bidding feature because we wanted to ensure trading guilds weren’t entirely dependent on winning their one single bid each week, which puts even more pressure on them to place exorbitant bids."

This statement from Phil is why I said ZoS condoned ghost guilds. It was in the quote you provided.

Condone: transitive verb meaning to accept or permit actions or behavior that are considered morally unacceptable or wrong.

When you provide a quote in an attempt to refute a statement, it is important to read theentire statement, lest you prove yourself incorrect, rather than supporting your refutation.

Further, nothing in my statement, nor any statement I have made, indicates whether I support or do not support so-called 'ghost guilds'. I merely made an observation based upon policy published by ZoS.

You may have said “condoned” but I don’t feel that would be appropriate in the text by Zenimax. You may have read it that way, but I did not.

It’s an interesting word you used. “Condoned”. That leads me to believe you know the practice is shady, manipulative and wrong.

Ultimately, unsporting guild practices should be discouraged.

Considering that ZoS stated they did not disable 'ghost guilds' until they had developed multiple bid capability, because 'ghost guilds' served a useful purpose, that strongly suggests to me that ZoS did not wish the practice to continue, nor did they wish to strengthen the all-or-nothing policy of the current single bid mechanic. In other words, they condoned a practice they ultimately disabled once an alternative was developed. As you intuited, I selected the word for the connotation it carries... not for myself, but because of the many complaints.

I don't understand why the word creates such a problem. There have been numerous threads criticizing 'ghost guilds' and just as many calling upon ZoS to disable the practice. It seems many become overwrought whenever the subject comes up.

Looking at it subjectively, 'ghost guilds' served a purpose as far as ZoS is concerned, and now they are doing away with them. I have no judgment on the issue, other than simple interest in the dynamics of trade guild bids.

barney2525

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Are we the only server having this issue? 20k a week is absurd to pay for a trading guild. The only ones with enough gold to take the top trading spots on a weekly basis are themselves so who are they raising the prices in fear of?

This is blatant greed at this point. It's already well know alot of the profits get pocketed but now you're just making it obvious.

This is why Zos needs to rework the trading system. Zone chat is free remember.

Th Guild I am in did not raise the 10k regular fee - They ADDED a mid week raffle which costs Another 10k.

And, yeah, now I have to decide if its worth it to stay. 20k a week if you want to actually PLAY the game and just be in a trading guild because its REQUIRED if you want to sell something you happen to find is a bit much.

Wouldn't have this issue with a GAH

reoskit

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

I'm aware of that. I specifically replied to a post claiming that on PC paying 20k+ a week is normal now for any decent trade guild. Addons are implied.

@Kingslayer513 - oops! I thought it was in response to the OP; I must've missed that you quoted someone else. Moar coffee!

Urigall

-- 20k a week is absurd to pay for a trading guild --

Can the OP please clarify the question of whether the 20k is a fee or a weekly, sales minimum? Is the guild asking for a 20k/week contribution or is the 20k a weekly, sales target?

I know of guilds that levy a fee in the event that minimum sales aren't met. It's not 20k though - a lot less.

20k/week fee (iow, a payment) seems a bit steep. If the 20k is a sales target, that's not a lot, relatively speaking. Five tempering alloys, or three chromium grains, would exceed that target.

DragonRacer

Urigall wrote: »

-- 20k a week is absurd to pay for a trading guild --

Can the OP please clarify the question of whether the 20k is a fee or a weekly, sales minimum? Is the guild asking for a 20k/week contribution or is the 20k a weekly, sales target?

I know of guilds that levy a fee in the event that minimum sales aren't met. It's not 20k though - a lot less.

20k/week fee (iow, a payment) seems a bit steep. If the 20k is a sales target, that's not a lot, relatively speaking. Five tempering alloys, or three chromium grains, would exceed that target.

OP is referring to PS4 NA. We do not have sales targets as we have no convenient way to track sales like PC does with its add-ons.

It is a weekly fee. There's usually also an expectation to buy raffle tickets and/or donate for and/or bid in auctions. As it really takes all to pull together bid money on our platform.

For non-dues guilds, we still have to rely on generous donations from members, participation in raffles, and good auction items/sales to raise funds for a trader bid.

There's... really no convenient way to know what our sales tax is bringing in. At all. It's just kind of a bonus on our platforms.

Urigall

DragonRacer wrote: »

OP is referring to PS4 NA.

That explains it. Thanks.

Probably my fault for not paying attention to the OP's initial comments.

NiteFire

To put this in a different way, in the real world to run a business you want a good location. If you opened a business on a side street or in an ally, you are not gonna have high traffic or visibility. The more prime the spot, the more the rent is gonna cost.
Same goes for selling at a bazaar. You have to rent your spot to sell goods at it. If you spend a lot of time on the game like myself and are always gathering and listing stuff, the 20k is easily worth it for the high traffic and volume the trader gets.
If I was selling stuff on one of the traders in an outlaw refuge or in the middle of a zone by itself, my sales would be dismal. 20k a week is nothing if you have the stuff to sell from it consistently. The guilds that do go there are the ones that their main focus is trading. Social Guilds and stuff don't have those fees since their main focus is socializing and group stuff.
Hopefully this makes some sense. That's the point of different guilds, some fit in better than in other guilds.
And all this stuff about bullying? I'm in 3 capital city trading guilds and guild chat is always fun, friendly and it is a great place to be a part of

DragonRacer

NiteFire wrote: »

And all this stuff about bullying? I'm in 3 capital city trading guilds and guild chat is always fun, friendly and it is a great place to be a part of

No. None of THAT is bullying. There are things - messages, whispers, conversations and party chats - that happen behind the scenes, behind closed doors, that members don't see or realize happens. And THAT is where the bullying, threats, and ultimatums occur.

Being outbid is not bullying. Being brought into a party chat and told your choice is join or be driven out of the non-capital city you are occupying a trader in, and to join you must kick/blacklist certain people, participate in the ghost guild trade, "suggested" to start charging specific dues in your guild, "suggested" certain folks should be added and made officers or co-GMs in your guild, and more rules/regulations... that is bullying.

Unless you find all that to be perfectly normal and reasonable.

Yes, capital guild chats are fun. I was in one for a while before I learned about the seedy underbelly of some things. The chat and members were generally delightful. And probably largely unaware of the backdoor politics, which only GMs and their trusted officers are privy to.

Ironically, that one capital trader guild I used to be in is the one I referenced earlier who is so fed up and upset that they are moving to social/PvE only and will cease to be a trader guild. Because "it is not worth it" on our server, they say.

But naaaaaaaaaaaaah. None of that is bullying. Definitely not. All perfectly normal. Fun video game times!

EDIT: I am riddled with the typos apparently.

Tan9oSuccka

DragonRacer wrote: »

NiteFire wrote: »

And all this stuff about bullying? I'm in 3 capital city trading guilds and guild chat is always fun, friendly and it is a great place to be a part of

No. None of THAT is bullying. There are things - messages, whispers, conversations and party chats - that happen behind the scenes, behind closed doors, that members don't see or realize happens. And THAT is where the bullying, threats, and ultimatums occur.

Being outbid is not bullying. Being brought into a party chat and told your choice is join or be driven out of the non-capital city you are occupying a trader in, and to join you must kick/blacklist certain people, participate in the ghost guild trade, "suggested" to start charging specific dues in your guild, "suggested" certain folks should be added and made officers or co-GMs in your guild, and more rules/regulations... that is bullying.

Unless you find all that to be perfectly normal and reasonable.

Yes, capital guild chats are fun. I was in one for a while before I learned about the seedy underbelly of some things. The chat and members were generally delightful. And probably largely unaware of the backdoor politics, which only GMs and their trusted officers are privy to.

Ironically, that one capital trader guild I used to be in is the one I referenced earlier who is so fed up and upset that they are moving to social/PvE only and will cease to be a trader guild. Because "it is not worth it" on our server, they say.

But naaaaaaaaaaaaah. None of that is bullying. Definitely not. All perfectly normal. Fun video game times!

EDIT: I am riddled with the typographical s apparently.

At this point, I’m all in for a Global auction house.

People argue about price manipulation/market cornering. It’s already happening.

I’ve seen some of the dirty tactics first hand. Not to mention the shady guild deposit histories.

I’m just sick of it.

DragonRacer

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

At this point, I’m all in for a Global auction house.

People argue about price manipulation/market cornering. It’s already happening.

I’ve seen some of the dirty tactics first hand. Not to mention the shady guild deposit histories.

I’m just sick of it.

Honestly, given how everything is, it wouldn't break my heart to see a GAH come about and us convert to a social-focused guild instead of a trader/social guild.

I don't necessarily know as far as price manipulation. I do know, from a current guildmate who left a certain guild because they 'got weird vibes" about some of the things asked/suggested, that the individual guild suggests certain prices for members to list and/or tells them not to list for less than what the officers list things at, for example. I *think* the guild also claims to be donation-based (I could be wrong) and is almost always in one of the capitals, so that reeeeeeally makes me side-eye the claim. But you never know! They could be fortunate to have lots of big moneybag donors and can afford that pace. If they truly are donation-based and in that position to almost always have a guaranteed capital trader, my hat's off to them.

The last thing I want to address is after all of my yammering of the backdoor stuff, I am sure at some point someone will post the logical question of "If it's so bad on your server, why even be a GM?"

Love and duty are my reasons.

I had no idea... just not even the inkling of a clue... how things behaved in the trading scene of our server. I was plucked out of Bangorkai by the zone recruitment message of our guild founder at just the time I was starting to come into a little bit of gold and items and wanted to try selling. I could not afford the - at the time - standard 10k weekly dues for a capital trading guild. I was baby new to the trading game, just a solo PvE carebear questing about the world. So the advertising of a chill, free trading guild sounded perfect.

I fell in love with that guild. And got involved. When our GM needed a second auctioneer to help during the week, I volunteered. He taught me so, so much. I eventually became co-GM and it really became "my home guild". I started to get better items to sell and could then afford the 10k weekly fee for a capital guild, so I joined one. Because, yes, it can be a struggle to move big ticket items in a non-capital trader. And learned at trader flip one night that they lost a bid... only to miraculously end up in Mournhold the next morning. That was when I learned about ghost guilds, and that was when I left that capital guild. It felt like a conflict of interest to give money that would support that behavior, while my own guild relied on donations, auctions, and raffles to place bids. And if we lost, we lost and bought from each other instead.

Eventually, he burned out on running a guild and that's when I became GM earlier this year. He's also been approached in the past to either leave the guild he founded or face "consequences" - this from a capital guild he was in simply to sell, not active as an officer or anything. He left them after that freaky whisper, obviously. But this is the way things are.

I love my guild. I love my guildmates. I'm saddened at the atmosphere of the trading scene sometimes. Would it be better and easier to walk away from it all and just play the game? Absolutely. 1,000%. But I love my guild. I love my guildmates. I will serve them and do my very best to secure a trader for them for as long as I can.

If I did not feel that love and duty, I would GTFO in a heartbeat. I mostly feel bad for any new guilds trying to enter the trading scene. Sweet summer children with no idea. Like I once was.

NiteFire

I totally agree with having a blacklist for known scammers and toxic people. No one wants to be in a guild where they feel uncomfortable. No one is telling other guilds who to have as a GM or officer. That is always entirely up to the guild master.

Jayman1000

You console people have to pay a fee in ANY guild no matter how much sales you got? I sincerely have to doubt this.... though that's pretty messed up. Imagine someone selling for 2million a week and then STILL demanding them to pay 20k fee just like the guy that made 5k sales that week. Im not on console so I dont know the facts of how it is on console, but I have a hard time believing it really is as you say it is. On my pc guilds I have to make around 300-500k in sales per week depending on the guild, and if that is not met only THEN do I need to contribute a raffle donation of like 30-50k. This is totally fair in my opinion, and these examples are the absolute TOP guilds. Most other guilds have much lower sales requirements.

Either step up, or step out.

DragonRacer

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You console people have to pay a fee in ANY guild no matter how much sales you got? I sincerely have to doubt this.... though that's pretty messed up. Imagine someone selling for 2million a week and then STILL demanding them to pay 20k fee just like the guy that made 5k sales that week. Im not on console so I dont know the facts of how it is on console, but I have a hard time believing it really is as you say it is.

If people wish to be in a capital or big city trading guild, yes. They have to pay weekly dues set by management.

There are dues-free donation-based trading guilds, like the one I run, that do NOT charge members weekly mandatory fees. We rely on donations and income from raffles and auctions. As such, we usually secure traders in “lower tier” cities. Occasionally scoring a bigger city win.

DragonRacer

NiteFire wrote: »

I totally agree with having a blacklist for known scammers and toxic people. No one wants to be in a guild where they feel uncomfortable. No one is telling other guilds who to have as a GM or officer. That is always entirely up to the guild master.

The people my friend was being told to kick and blacklist were not scammers or toxic people. They were people simply disliked by the Mafia.

As for the rest, I know for a fact that such was being dictated. It is partly why one guild is leaving the trader scene altogether.

Edit: Mobile typos galore

DragonRacer

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You console people have to pay a fee in ANY guild no matter how much sales you got? I sincerely have to doubt this.... though that's pretty messed up. Imagine someone selling for 2million a week and then STILL demanding them to pay 20k fee just like the guy that made 5k sales that week. Im not on console so I dont know the facts of how it is on console, but I have a hard time believing it really is as you say it is. On my pc guilds I have to make around 300-500k in sales per week depending on the guild, and if that is not met only THEN do I need to contribute a raffle donation of like 30-50k. This is totally fair in my opinion, and these examples are the absolute TOP guilds. Most other guilds have much lower sales requirements.

Either step up, or step out.

And to repeat - PC has add-ones that let you see how much each person has sold.

CONSOLE DOES NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY.

We have NO way to know what each member is hitting for sales. It is literally impossible to set a sales quota or minimum. Period. So, yes, for the guilds that charge dues - EVERYONE has to pay those dues weekly.

You have console players telling you how it works on our system. Why and how is this hard to believe?

therift

DragonRacer wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You console people have to pay a fee in ANY guild no matter how much sales you got? I sincerely have to doubt this.... though that's pretty messed up. Imagine someone selling for 2million a week and then STILL demanding them to pay 20k fee just like the guy that made 5k sales that week. Im not on console so I dont know the facts of how it is on console, but I have a hard time believing it really is as you say it is. On my pc guilds I have to make around 300-500k in sales per week depending on the guild, and if that is not met only THEN do I need to contribute a raffle donation of like 30-50k. This is totally fair in my opinion, and these examples are the absolute TOP guilds. Most other guilds have much lower sales requirements.

Either step up, or step out.

And to repeat - PC has add-ones that let you see how much each person has sold.

CONSOLE DOES NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY.

We have NO way to know what each member is hitting for sales. It is literally impossible to set a sales quota or minimum. Period. So, yes, for the guilds that charge dues - EVERYONE has to pay those dues weekly.

You have console players telling you how it works on our system. Why and how is this hard to believe?

I second this statement. There is no sales-based option for console.

If we had access to add-ons that make this model viable, every dues-based guild would jump on that in a heartbeat. As it stands now, we must spend hours of game time every week jumping back and forth between Deposit History and Roster History for every single transaction in order to identify and record which members are contributing to weekly bids.

We charge dues or solicit donations because we have no choice. Period.

DragonRacer

Because our alternative would be combing through every single line of every single sales page and manually recording into a spreadsheet each member, each individual sale amount, and then sorting through that mess. In order to have any idea of a member’s sales.

No human being on earth is going to do that.

Jayman1000

DragonRacer wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You console people have to pay a fee in ANY guild no matter how much sales you got? I sincerely have to doubt this.... though that's pretty messed up. Imagine someone selling for 2million a week and then STILL demanding them to pay 20k fee just like the guy that made 5k sales that week. Im not on console so I dont know the facts of how it is on console, but I have a hard time believing it really is as you say it is. On my pc guilds I have to make around 300-500k in sales per week depending on the guild, and if that is not met only THEN do I need to contribute a raffle donation of like 30-50k. This is totally fair in my opinion, and these examples are the absolute TOP guilds. Most other guilds have much lower sales requirements.

Either step up, or step out.

And to repeat - PC has add-ones that let you see how much each person has sold.

CONSOLE DOES NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY.

We have NO way to know what each member is hitting for sales. It is literally impossible to set a sales quota or minimum. Period. So, yes, for the guilds that charge dues - EVERYONE has to pay those dues weekly.

You have console players telling you how it works on our system. Why and how is this hard to believe?

Because I forgot how sheitty consoles are (no hate, just opinion). and ah of course that makes sense. Thanks for reminding me why I will never ever play a mmo on console lmao.

Yeah I agree with OP somewhat now actually, I mean on consoles it's a mess wow. Yrgh, just the thought of playing this game in vanilla states makes me wanna puke. sorry, it really is that bad and I just realized how good I have it with my beloved addons.

therift

DragonRacer wrote: »

Because our alternative would be combing through every single line of every single sales page and manually recording into a spreadsheet each member, each individual sale amount, and then sorting through that mess. In order to have any idea of a member’s sales.

No human being on earth is going to do that.

I tried once... for a social guild for which I secured a kiosk in the Orsinium Outlaw Refuge... and couldn't keep up with one or two transactions per hour (I wanted to incentivize trading with prizes for top sellers).

Imagine trying that for a location that generates up to a couple dozen transactions per minute. Lol, I say, lol.

disintegr8

Until recently I've been happy with paying dues for a weekly trader in one of the 'big 3' locations for the simple reason that items sell relatively quickly instead of just sitting there. I've seen the weekly dues go from 5k, 10k, 15k and now it looks like I'll be saved from the next rise because my trading guild is going to stop trading rather than fight the good fight (PS4 NA).

I've never been a full on trader, (keeping my listings full), because I'd rather do other things in the game. To compensate for this I've always paid at least double the weekly dues because I think GM's do a lot of work and I'm happy to support the guilds I'm in.

What I don't understand in all of this is how much gold do people really need?
Surely the current trading system is more about egos and who's got the bigger pile of gold, a bit like the 'Scrooge' equivalent of a DPS race.

After 3 years of being in a trading guild, I think I'll stop being a regular member of one. Maybe I'll stock up on my supplies and when I get down to my last few million, or need to clear some inventory, simply find one to join for a week or two while I sell what I want and leave again. Maybe a few people could do the same and see if it has an impact.

itscompton

Ever rising trader fees and the time sink necessary to farm items I can sell to make a reasonable profit are certainly part of the reason I let my ESO+ lapse and haven't been playing much the last six months.

Waffennacht

My guild in Rawl is 7k a week, Xbox NA

geonsocal

I remember when I first figured out how to use the guild trader system to buy stuff...for months I had no clue what their purpose was...

once I did finally figure them out, ol' miss atin in wayrest and i were inseparable...at the time atin primarily pushed goods each week for back alley trading (ps4/na)...

took me over a year of playing before I finally had enough of my own crap to sell to justify joining a premier dues required trading guild - I joined back alley trading...

i know it sounds silly, but, it was one of my prouder game moments...I felt like I really had "made it" in the game...

fast forward a few years and I have plenty of gold and mats, and, I rarely if ever list anything anymore...

as much as I enjoyed the feeling of being in BAT, the 80k a month doesn't really make sense anymore...

oh well...will still stay active with the purple gang (I donate 15k a month, will just raise it to 20k going forward), and, if I need to list stuff to clean my inventory I'll do so with them...

yeah, I'm kind of bummed about leaving a guild I've always thought so highly of - but, things change, and, that includes my own gameplay...

GoodFella146

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Are we the only server having this issue? 20k a week is absurd to pay for a trading guild. The only ones with enough gold to take the top trading spots on a weekly basis are themselves so who are they raising the prices in fear of?

This is blatant greed at this point. It's already well know alot of the profits get pocketed but now you're just making it obvious.

This is why Zos needs to rework the trading system. Zone chat is free remember.

Is GoodFella still running trading guild? And how much is he charging?

Hi I'm still around. Aldmeri Nation is going up to 20k/week next week. I also have a smaller guild in Alinor that is donation based.