How to fix the Rapid Maneuvers QoL nerf?

FrancisCrawford

For some reason, ZoS decided to clobber Rapid Maneuvers in a way that makes it harder to move quickly when doing crafting writs, going to the bank, turning in guild daily quests.

1. Does anybody know, or can they guess, a reason why the Major Expedition component of the skill was slashed? What problem(s) does this solve? (Not just generic balance among skills, but real problems?)

2. Would these real problems, if any, also be solved be solved by making the Major Expedition part of Rapid Maneuvers, in at least one morph, be single-target only??

BigBragg

They did it to bring it in line with other sources of Major Expedition.

Ufretin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Does anybody know, or can they guess, a reason why the Major Expedition component of the skill was slashed? What problem(s) does this solve? (Not just generic balance among skills, but real problems?)

They don't want us magblades to cloak through delve dailies fast. They want us to appreciate the beautifully designed delve by having us kill every single trash mob before reaching the objective.

FrancisCrawford

BigBragg wrote: »

They did it to bring it in line with other sources of Major Expedition.

And that balance is important in ... which contexts?

Jolipinator

Something something PVP.

Something something dark side of video games.

FrancisCrawford

Jolipinator wrote: »

Something something PVP.

Something something dark side of video games.

This is a change that will reduce the enjoyment of a LARGE fraction of PvE players. Yet nobody can even figure out what the PvP benefit is???

Gorrest

Not even the PvP crowd wants it's duration to be 8 seconds

MartiniDaniels

Roll-dodge with bow. Exploit acceleration mechanics. Use gap closers to travel between mobs faster and VO/False god sets.

WrathOfInnos

Hmm, I’ve never considered Rapids to be a good skill to use when running around towns anyway. It’s so expensive that you can’t do much sprinting after casting it, and Sprinting adds more speed than Major Expedition. There are plenty of skills that give a short duration of Major Expedition at the cost of Magicka, allowing you to still Sprint after using them (including Race Against Time available to all classes, or my personal favorite Bird of Prey on Warden).

Rapids was always best used when mounted, because mount Stamina is independent of the Stamina used to cast it. This part will remain unchanged, with a long duration of Major Gallop still granted by the skill.

The fact that it will not be removed while fighting is definitely a buff in PVP, and could even be useful in some PVE content (like maybe while kiting Storm of the Heavens in vAS).

Not a bad change in my opinion.

FrancisCrawford

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Hmm, I’ve never considered Rapids to be a good skill to use when running around towns anyway. It’s so expensive that you can’t do much sprinting after casting it, and Sprinting adds more speed than Major Expedition. There are plenty of skills that give a short duration of Major Expedition at the cost of Magicka, allowing you to still Sprint after using them (including Race Against Time available to all classes, or my personal favorite Bird of Prey on Warden).

Rapids was always best used when mounted, because mount Stamina is independent of the Stamina used to cast it. This part will remain unchanged, with a long duration of Major Gallop still granted by the skill.

The fact that it will not be removed while fighting is definitely a buff in PVP, and could even be useful in some PVE content (like maybe while kiting Storm of the Heavens in vAS).

Not a bad change in my opinion.

Most of my characters aren't wardens and haven't done the Psijic quest line. And Boundless Storm (for example) has been nerfed into tediousness. Etc. My thief also enjoys having long-duration Major Expedition.

FrancisCrawford

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Roll-dodge with bow. Exploit acceleration mechanics. Use gap closers to travel between mobs faster and VO/False god sets.

Hmm. That sounds like a single-payer story ...

Uh, do people really equip both False God and a bow?

BigBragg

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

They did it to bring it in line with other sources of Major Expedition.

And that balance is important in ... which contexts?

PvP, speed runs, and material farming.

Mattock_Romulus

Solution: Use the nerfed Werewolf for the 30% runspeed.

FrancisCrawford

BigBragg wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

They did it to bring it in line with other sources of Major Expedition.

And that balance is important in ... which contexts?

PvP, speed runs, and material farming.

Well, if for some reason ZoS wants to sabotage speed runs, then making Rapid Maneuvers' Major Expedition single-target would work as well as the current nerf.

I have no idea why balance would be needed for material farming.

The only issue seems to be whether imposing a continual waste of time on a HUGE number of players is necessary for the sake of PvP.

jainiadral

.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jolipinator wrote: »

Something something PVP.

Something something dark side of video games.

This is a change that will reduce the enjoyment of a LARGE fraction of PvE players. Yet nobody can even figure out what the PvP benefit is???

Hypothesizing: you can't zerg if you can't keep up with it...? Like the multiple bids per trader, ultimate cast times, etc., I'm curious to know what ZOS' rationale is. *shrug* It's too esoteric for this mortal to figure out

yRaven

It's just ZOS normal ''Fixing random things instead of fixing the real problems'' policy

Vostorn

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jolipinator wrote: »

Something something PVP.

Something something dark side of video games.

This is a change that will reduce the enjoyment of a LARGE fraction of PvE players. Yet nobody can even figure out what the PvP benefit is???

There are many changes in this update I dislike so much.

• Rapid maneuvers
• Healing
• Other classes getting a NB-like fear in a better version
• Casting times
• ...

From now, I am not longer willing to play. If it goes live like this, I will definitely stop playing.

BigBragg

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Well, if for some reason ZoS wants to sabotage speed runs, then making Rapid Maneuvers' Major Expedition single-target would work as well as the current nerf.

That wouldn't address other concerns with the imbalance in the buff.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I have no idea why balance would be needed for material farming.

One more step in fighting gold sellers. Working to maintain a healthy economy. Plus farmers can get pretty nasty if you beat them to a node, so balance in that area for stam and magicka.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

The only issue seems to be whether imposing a continual waste of time on a HUGE number of players is necessary for the sake of PvP.

Just because this is your only perceived justification doesn't make it true.

ZOS has been on the mission to create a balance amongst all major and minor buffs and debuffs as well as a level baseline for abilities. This is all an endeavor towards creating a better environment for them to adjust balance throughout the game as a whole.

MartiniDaniels

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Roll-dodge with bow. Exploit acceleration mechanics. Use gap closers to travel between mobs faster and VO/False god sets.

Hmm. That sounds like a single-payer story ...

Uh, do people really equip both False God and a bow?

Why? there is VO (Vicious ophidian) for stamina characters.
I greatly enjoyed combination of False God, Mother Sorrow, magblade, lotus fan, cloak, concealed weapon. Really you are moving in overland like shadow scythe without bothering to finish mobs, just use them as anchors for lotus, drop blockade/twisting path and move further, they will die by themselves in few seconds and fuel major expedition+resource restore from FG.

max_only

Rapid Maneuver:
Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs to 6885 from 8100 for the 15% Stamina cost reduction standard.
This ability and its morphs will no longer remove themselves if you take an action, such as healing or damage.
Reduced the duration of the Major Expedition granted to 8 seconds from 30 seconds at Rank IV. Note it will continue granting Major Gallop for 30 seconds.
Retreating Maneuver (morph): This ability no longer ranks up in duration.
Charging Maneuver (morph):
This morph no longer grants Minor Expedition after the Major Gallop ends or is reapplied. Instead, it grants the Minor Expedition bonus alongside the Major Expedition bonus.
This ability no longer ranks up in duration, but instead reduces in cost.
Fixed an issue where Minor Expedition was ignoring range requirements, and applying to allies in lands far, far away.

So it’s 8 seconds instead of 30 and it costs a little less?

FrancisCrawford

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Roll-dodge with bow. Exploit acceleration mechanics. Use gap closers to travel between mobs faster and VO/False god sets.

Hmm. That sounds like a single-payer story ...

Uh, do people really equip both False God and a bow?

Why? there is VO (Vicious ophidian) for stamina characters.
I greatly enjoyed combination of False God, Mother Sorrow, magblade, lotus fan, cloak, concealed weapon. Really you are moving in overland like shadow scythe without bothering to finish mobs, just use them as anchors for lotus, drop blockade/twisting path and move further, they will die by themselves in few seconds and fuel major expedition+resource restore from FG.

Makes sense. I go stamblade thief as well and zoom around mobs, but the idea is similar. And to the extent it's nerfed just to slow down mat farming or whatever ... blech.

Drako_Ei

Be a magsorc

FrancisCrawford

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Be a magsorc

I have alts in all 6 classes.

Jhalin

The smart thing would’ve been to start an 8s counter once a healing or damage ability was cast, or being hit with damage rather than just cut it by nearly %75 on the whole, which would have allowed it to be usable in combat without lasting ages, and still usable for those that slot Rapids for easy farming

Jayman1000

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Hmm, I’ve never considered Rapids to be a good skill to use when running around towns anyway. It’s so expensive that you can’t do much sprinting after casting it, and Sprinting adds more speed than Major Expedition. There are plenty of skills that give a short duration of Major Expedition at the cost of Magicka, allowing you to still Sprint after using them (including Race Against Time available to all classes, or my personal favorite Bird of Prey on Warden).

Rapids was always best used when mounted, because mount Stamina is independent of the Stamina used to cast it. This part will remain unchanged, with a long duration of Major Gallop still granted by the skill.

The fact that it will not be removed while fighting is definitely a buff in PVP, and could even be useful in some PVE content (like maybe while kiting Storm of the Heavens in vAS).

Not a bad change in my opinion.

A sorc can have 32 sec of rapid and sprint uninterrupted in all that time, for max speed without wearing any speed sets. If run out of stamina just throw 1 or 2 dark deal regen. Well, now those days are over it seems, so either recast every 8 sec (yuck) or get cowards. Im on pc so and can use Dressing Room addon to easily change set so I guess I wont be too affected after all. But poor console sorcs..

Jaraal

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

1. Does anybody know, or can they guess, a reason why the Major Expedition component of the skill was slashed? What problem(s) does this solve? (Not just generic balance among skills, but real problems?)

Because they felt that thousands of people casting Rapids every 30 seconds wasn't enough of a load on the server, so they want us to spam it every 8 seconds instead.

Lylith

yRaven wrote: »

It's just ZOS normal ''Fixing random things instead of fixing the real problems'' policy

no one asked for it to be 'fixed,' did they?

Jaraal

Lylith wrote: »

yRaven wrote: »

It's just ZOS normal ''Fixing random things instead of fixing the real problems'' policy

no one asked for it to be 'fixed,' did they?

They've been progressively nerfing player speed since Nerfmire, in an effort to reduce server calculation load, and as a result, reduce lag. The official line in the patch notes was that some players were having a hard time in Cyrodiil targeting fast players, so they wanted to slow us all down.

It's just a matter of time before Major Expedition is removed altogether.

MartiniDaniels

Jaraal wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

1. Does anybody know, or can they guess, a reason why the Major Expedition component of the skill was slashed? What problem(s) does this solve? (Not just generic balance among skills, but real problems?)

Because they felt that thousands of people casting Rapids every 30 seconds wasn't enough of a load on the server, so they want us to spam it every 8 seconds instead.

I remember our discussion about usefulness of hunter's eye speed in overland.. well, it's really be unique and useful with this changes, bosmer stamsorc with bow, hurricane and streak looks like fastest lightning in a quiver imo.

Rake

Crafting writs use cowards gear and jailbreaker or streak if sorc

FrancisCrawford

Rake wrote: »

Crafting writs use cowards gear and jailbreaker or streak if sorc

Most of my characters wear Jailbreaker in town. It's free, so why not (except for inventory slots)? But other speed buffs are additive to that.