PLEASE, stop this before its too late! (Vigor)

Anyron

new changes to VIGOR, and its recent buffs (hot buff) can change pvp balance more than ever.

i am talking about that AOE heal version. with its current potency (on pts 5.1.0), this can make mass stacked groups completely invulnerable to all counters, like negate
this game is mass pvp, sure, but it should not be MASS STACKED pvp

It is PVP skill, so it should be PVP balanced. with recent changes, Magicka healers become weaker, but spin2win-healers may occur without any way to stop their heals


Make this right and fix it before its too late.

Morgul667

?

susmitds

Are you talking about Stamden healers?

Anyron

susmitds wrote: »

Are you talking about Stamden healers?

vigor

Luede

i dont get what you wanna say:

Vigor: Adhered this ability to our single target HoT standards.
Vigor and Resolving Vigor now only heal the caster.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds from 5 seconds, but decreased the tick frequency to 2 seconds from 1 second.
Increased the healing per tick by approximately 85%.
Reduced the cost to 2295 from 3511.
Resolving Vigor (morph): This morph doubles the frequency but halves the duration.
Echoing Vigor (morph): This morph reintroduces the Area of Effect healing capability, healing up to 6 allies in a 15 meter radius.

Seraphayel

I really don’t understand the buffs to Vigor. It was already a very very very strong healing ability. And now it’s healing was increased and the cost at the same time drastically reduced?

Qbiken

People are going to wish we had the old heavy armor meta back when next patch hits. Instead of people in heavy armor running around we´ll have medium armor builds with insane mobility (and same tankiness as heavy armor builds) stacking echoing vigor.

Enjoy the medium armor meta

Jimmy_The_Fixer

OP, I don’t know what you thought the patch notes said, but nothing happened that would make vigor into crazy strong group heal. For the group morph, they made it cheaper and reduced the HPS by 15%.

Saril_Durzam

Yay! Magicka nerfs, stamina buffs. Really, who needs healers now? Stamina character with Orb socketed. Enough healing and sustain.

I really, really hope the devs recapacite on this patch.

Thraben

Anyron wrote: »

new changes to VIGOR, and its recent buffs (dot buff) can change pvp balance more than ever.

i am talking about that AOE heal version. with its current potency (on pts 5.1.0), this can make mass stacked groups completely invulnerable to all counters, like negate
this game is mass pvp, sure, but it should not be MASS STACKED pvp

It is PVP skill, so it should be PVP balanced. with recent changes, Magicka healers become weaker, but spin2win-healers may occur without any way to stop their heals


Make this right and fix it before its too late.

Stacked groups are not negatable anyway, in the case of Warden groups. Every half decent PvP Stam Warden is able to switch roles from DD to Healer in an instant.

Secondly, you confused the vigor types: The group heal vigor stays roughly as it is hps- wise, only the self heal one is being buffed.



Of course, you will have groups stacking vigor, boneshield, and barrier, but we had this Meta already 4 years ago, so nothing new here.



Equip Inevitable Deto, and you´ll be fine.

darkblue5

Remember that 2handed lost its HoT... so the Vigor buff is less of a stam survival buff than it seems....

Vortigaunt

darkblue5 wrote: »

Remember that 2handed lost its HoT... so the Vigor buff is less of a stam survival buff than it seems....

That hot was hardly ever relevant, it ticks for sub 500 healing.

susmitds

Vortigaunt wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Remember that 2handed lost its HoT... so the Vigor buff is less of a stam survival buff than it seems....

That hot was hardly ever relevant, it ticks for sub 500 healing.

What? It crits harder than 2k

Dreyloch

Seraphayel wrote: »

I really don’t understand the buffs to Vigor. It was already a very very very strong healing ability. And now it’s healing was increased and the cost at the same time drastically reduced?

I think its to compensate for the healing springs only being effected by one at a time. It's making it so we're responsible for some of our own heals? I could be flat wrong, but thats how I'm looking at it. (mostly from a PvP large grp position) It also gives a better heal to those classes without a straight burst heal. AkA Necro's, maybe sorcs and NB's fall into that?

templesus

magicka gets a vigor = stamina vigor gets buffed. This is what you call balance.

Dreyloch

Thraben wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

new changes to VIGOR, and its recent buffs (dot buff) can change pvp balance more than ever.

i am talking about that AOE heal version. with its current potency (on pts 5.1.0), this can make mass stacked groups completely invulnerable to all counters, like negate
this game is mass pvp, sure, but it should not be MASS STACKED pvp

It is PVP skill, so it should be PVP balanced. with recent changes, Magicka healers become weaker, but spin2win-healers may occur without any way to stop their heals


Make this right and fix it before its too late.

Stacked groups are not negatable anyway, in the case of Warden groups. Every half decent PvP Stam Warden is able to switch roles from DD to Healer in an instant.

Secondly, you confused the vigor types: The group heal vigor stays roughly as it is hps- wise, only the self heal one is being buffed.



Of course, you will have groups stacking vigor, boneshield, and barrier, but we had this Meta already 4 years ago, so nothing new here.



Equip Inevitable Deto, and you´ll be fine.

I was thinking the same thing as I went thru these notes. Don't forget the Bats and Proxy det getting a little love too.

Seraphayel

Dreyloch wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I really don’t understand the buffs to Vigor. It was already a very very very strong healing ability. And now it’s healing was increased and the cost at the same time drastically reduced?

I think its to compensate for the healing springs only being effected by one at a time. It's making it so we're responsible for some of our own heals? I could be flat wrong, but thats how I'm looking at it. (mostly from a PvP large grp position) It also gives a better heal to those classes without a straight burst heal. AkA Necro's, maybe sorcs and NB's fall into that?

This would make sense when Vigor would be efficiently usable by Magicka healers. But the real buff was made to the single target Vigor, it was incredibly buffed (higher healing, lower costs).

Murador178

Seraphayel wrote: »

Dreyloch wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I really don’t understand the buffs to Vigor. It was already a very very very strong healing ability. And now it’s healing was increased and the cost at the same time drastically reduced?

I think its to compensate for the healing springs only being effected by one at a time. It's making it so we're responsible for some of our own heals? I could be flat wrong, but thats how I'm looking at it. (mostly from a PvP large grp position) It also gives a better heal to those classes without a straight burst heal. AkA Necro's, maybe sorcs and NB's fall into that?

This would make sense when Vigor would be efficiently usable by Magicka healers. But the real buff was made to the single target Vigor, it was incredibly buffed (higher healing, lower costs).

They buffed vigor and removed the healing from rallye so stam builds arent needed to go 2h on every build

Thraben

Seraphayel wrote: »

This would make sense when Vigor would be efficiently usable by Magicka healers. But the real buff was made to the single target Vigor, it was incredibly buffed (higher healing, lower costs).

And this buff comes with a huge costs, i.e. being excluded from all group PvP content, and being roflstomped when zergsurfing by even very small organized groups.

That being said, Magicka classes can and should use vigor when they know how, at least in PvP. It outperforms regeneration by far in groups.

You can easily heal every non-raid content by using a combination of combat prayer, vigor, and barrier as a Magicka class.

Ocelot9x

Lol some of the comments are hilarious. Vigor got buffed? Stamina lost healing over time on rally, and everyone will run single target vigor, so you can finally Zerg down those 4 men group that casuals seems to hate so much. And no one used orbs and healing spring in pvp unless professionals 48 men’s group healers.
I don’t know why every patch it’s not about gameplay but stamina vs magicka, but it’s getting really toxic

Luede

That being said, Magicka classes can and should use vigor when they know how, at least in PvP. It outperforms regeneration by far in groups.

Thraben wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This would make sense when Vigor would be efficiently usable by Magicka healers. But the real buff was made to the single target Vigor, it was incredibly buffed (higher healing, lower costs).

And this buff comes with a huge costs, i.e. being excluded from all group PvP content, and being roflstomped when zergsurfing by even very small organized groups.

That being said, Magicka classes can and should use vigor when they know how, at least in PvP. It outperforms regeneration by far in groups.

You can easily heal every non-raid content by using a combination of combat prayer, vigor, and barrier as a Magicka class.

Vigor skales with stamina, how big are magicka class numbers with this skill?

luen79rwb17_ESO

This thread reminds me of City of Ash for some reason

Defilted

I dont see anything wrong with the Vigor changes. Seems like it will work just fine.

Thraben

Luede wrote: »

Vigor skales with stamina, how big are magicka class numbers with this skill?

600 (x 6)/ second in No CP PvP, 1500+ (x6)/ second in (CP) Dungeons. Use it in conjunction with Troll King.

Of course, spamming healing springs is better. With them gone, and Regeneration half- buffed, it´ll be a close match. In groups smaller than 4 probably regeneration, in groups larger than 4 probably vigor (depends on your healer´s race/ CP). Even a combination of both seems to be possible now that both skills have different purposes. I would prefer the new Steadfast Ward, though.

fred4

I think the OP is unduly worried. On live, people in organised groups can run the 2 morphs of Vigor and the unmorphed Vigor, which THEN stack and that is the ONLY way it stacks. Every character can have 3 copies of Vigor ticking on them on live. Part of the changes seem aimed at preventing Vigor stacking.

The AOE morph appears to have been reduced to 92.5% of the original strength as it only ticks every 2 seconds. Resolving Vigor is buffed by 85%. This appears incredibly strong for individuals, but no stronger in a group than before, at least not a fully optimized group. It also means that everyone is now more responsible for their own healing and guildies are notorious for not keeping up their own Vigors, at least if our raid leader is to be believed.

Overall this shifts more responsibility to individuals and more people will have to spend GCDs on Vigor healing. Total potential group healing appears unaffected, while it's a buff to solo players. Factor in that the HOT from Momentum has been lost, though, and I don't know what to make of this. Keeping up Vigor will be more important than ever. If you're using Troll King, you'll also miss the reliable healing tick from Momentum.

technohic

The strong vigor is single target now and it looks like Rapid Regeneration is basically going to be the magicka mirror equivalent

Seraphayel

technohic wrote: »

The strong vigor is single target now and it looks like Rapid Regeneration is basically going to be the magicka mirror equivalent

Except you need a Resto Staff equipped which is the only downside. But you're right, Rapid Regeneration is the Magicka equivalent for this. I mean in the end this is good and bad at the same time - Magicka builds can now run Vigor + RR and have some very strong short HoTs whereas Stamina can't do this.

technohic

Seraphayel wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

The strong vigor is single target now and it looks like Rapid Regeneration is basically going to be the magicka mirror equivalent

Except you need a Resto Staff equipped which is the only downside. But you're right, Rapid Regeneration is the Magicka equivalent for this. I mean in the end this is good and bad at the same time - Magicka builds can now run Vigor + RR and have some very strong short HoTs whereas Stamina can't do this.

The difficulty with that is it seems at least Vigor is heavily influenced by stam pool. You can try a pelinals type hybrid build but Im not sure the payoff is worth it.

Seraphayel

technohic wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

The strong vigor is single target now and it looks like Rapid Regeneration is basically going to be the magicka mirror equivalent

Except you need a Resto Staff equipped which is the only downside. But you're right, Rapid Regeneration is the Magicka equivalent for this. I mean in the end this is good and bad at the same time - Magicka builds can now run Vigor + RR and have some very strong short HoTs whereas Stamina can't do this.

The difficulty with that is it seems at least Vigor is heavily influenced by stam pool. You can try a pelinals type hybrid build but Im not sure the payoff is worth it.

Vigor really doesn't heal that bad on a Magicka build and with the increased healing amount and the decreased overall cost it could be a very nice additional short timed HoT on top of RR when you don't want to use Shields. With ~ 2k Stamina it's super cheap even for pure Magicka builds imho.

Thraben

technohic wrote: »

The difficulty with that is it seems at least Vigor is heavily influenced by stam pool. You can try a pelinals type hybrid build but Im not sure the payoff is worth it.

Nah, no Pelinal´s needed. Just Nirn on the weapons, and you´ll be fine.

I have to admit THIS was not the first thing I was thinking about when looking at the patch notes, but it might be true:

Solo magicka classes that Vigor/RR stack will be the true winners of the patch Should be around 4k self healing per second.

technohic

Thraben wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

The difficulty with that is it seems at least Vigor is heavily influenced by stam pool. You can try a pelinals type hybrid build but Im not sure the payoff is worth it.

Nah, no Pelinal´s needed. Just Nirn on the weapons, and you´ll be fine.

I have to admit THIS was not the first thing I was thinking about when looking at the patch notes, but it might be true:

Solo magicka classes that Vigor/RR stack will be the true winners of the patch

Interesting. I always wondered what my templar would look like with HTD and Vigor both (IE a good HOT). Now they will get RR, HTD, a buffed ER heal, and if what you guys say is correct, could run Vigor as well.