Request: Devs vet Trials on PTS Livestream

UrQuan

The patch notes are out, and a lot of people are freaking out about some of the changes. From what I've been seeing, the things that seem to be the biggest source of worry/complaints/anger/concern are the changes for healers (especially, but not limited to, the changes to Orbs and Healing Springs), and what that means for endgame PVE.

Now, it's clear that the dev team has some sort of vision for how they want combat overall to change, otherwise we wouldn't get the snippets of commentary about how skills that do XYZ are being brought in line with each other in this way and that way, and so on. I'm sure there's a lot of disagreement in the community about just how much of a coherent vision the team has, and whether it's a good vision or not, but that's beside the point.

What I'd like to request is that the devs show us their vision. Do a livestream of one or more of the harder trials on PTS. Do vet Cloudrest +3, or vet Sunspire with hard mode on each boss, or vet Halls of Fabrication hard mode, or maybe even all three. Talk about how the changes to various skills and gear have impacted what you'll be using in your setups, especially for the healers. As a lot of people are worried that the changes are going to force endgame trials groups to only accept templars and wardens as healers, do it with a sorc healer and a nightblade healer, or maybe even a dragonknight healer. I know that a lot of ZOS staff aren't hardcore players, but I also know that you've got a bunch who are, and I would hope you've got enough top tier players to be able to complete hard mode trials (if not, recruit a few players to join you and help them with their setups just before the trial).

If we can see devs/ZOS employees being successful in some of the hardest endgame PVE content in the game with these changes, then that will go a long way towards alleviating people's fears. More than that, if we can see a livestream of you discussing your ideas for how to adapt, then we can do a better job of testing those things out on the PTS. Maybe you've got great ideas for compensating for some of the changes, but they're only really workable for top tier players while players who are relatively new to vet trials aren't going to be able to adapt. If we know what your ideas are for how people can deal with the changes, then we can properly test that out and give you that feedback. If we don't, then we're not going to be able to be as focused with our feedback.

Sanguinor2

They wouldnt be able to clear it on live either, have you seen their streams in Scalecaller Peak for example?

TheZachinator

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS this is an amazing idea.

UrQuan

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

They wouldnt be able to clear it on live either, have you seen their streams in Scalecaller Peak for example?

I don't know that I've ever seen them stream any content without including at least 1 or 2 employees who are really only casual players.

ecru

Agreed. Assembly General on HM, vCR+3, or any encounter from vSS on HM.

The_Lex

They can't even clear vDLC HM dungeons.

JumpmanLane

Then the devs should make a lil ball Zerg and roll into Cyro PcNA during prime time. Lol.

Or just the combat team. Stream a 1vX session or something. If all these changes are TRULY for the best...show. Me.

Lilly_Elessa

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

idk

The devs are not really raiders or serious players. If you ask a full dev team to do vSS on live they would probably fail. Asking them to do it on PTS would not demonstrate anything.

ManwithBeard9

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

Whether the devs can compete it or not, the changes will happen. The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

JumpmanLane

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

Whether the devs can compete it or not, the changes will happen. The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

You sure about that? Lol

ManwithBeard9

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

Whether the devs can compete it or not, the changes will happen. The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

You sure about that? Lol

100%

code65536

Full dev team? Probably not.

But maybe @ZOS_Gilliam in the healer role, running with a group of 11 non-ZOS players, and we'll see how Assembly General HM execute goes...

Aznarb

I've work hard to make my NB healer work in trial.
So, yeah plz, show me how you do it with these change, I'm pretty curious.

Evito

Dev team would wipe on first portals, they’ll get HODOR to do it and then say, look everything is fine!

ecru

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

This doesn't follow. How can you be the most knowledgeable but not be able to actually play certain parts of the game? You will only have a limited understanding of what the gameplay experience of clearing certain content is like until you actually clear that content. Development in MMOs isn't a closed system. Players test things and give feedback on what it's actually like to play the content they're designing. If developers always knew best, trials and dungeons would never be adjusted after release, but changes are frequently made well after content is released for balance reasons.

Sanguinor2

Evito wrote: »

Dev team would wipe on first portals, they’ll get HODOR to do it and then say, look everything is fine!

Afaik chaos and hjelmi Arent fans either so Maybe they´ll refuse?^^

JumpmanLane

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

Whether the devs can compete it or not, the changes will happen. The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

You sure about that? Lol

100%

I agree all I read was the knowledge about the game part lol. Read the rest. I agree.

spekdah

The term is called "Eat your own Dog Food", a practice used across many industries including engineering and software development.
You essentially make those who design or build software in this case, to use them how they were intended by the customers, to help with usability and quality. If you had some test plans you could also check it hits QA targets, or actual vs expected results.

I might look like trolling but its a very professional practice, we have it rather entrenched at our workplace.

I have also seen the term applied to those who repair helecopters or aircraft, the engineers in question get a free ride with the pilot doing a systems check afterwards .... somehow this helps with quality :-)

spekdah

Just a follow-up, streaming it would be beyond the call of duty, but I hope they do it at least perform these internally.

Sanguinor2

spekdah wrote: »

The term is called "Eat your own Dog Food", a practice used across many industries including engineering and software development.
You essentially make those who design or build software in this case, to use them how they were intended by the customers, to help with usability and quality. If you had some test plans you could also check it hits QA targets, or actual vs expected results.

I might look like trolling but its a very professional practice, we have it rather entrenched at our workplace.

I have also seen the term applied to those who repair helecopters or aircraft, the engineers in question get a free ride with the pilot doing a systems check afterwards .... somehow this helps with quality :-)

The ancient Romans used to have engineers stand underneath the Bridge they built when they were deemed usable for the public for some time, was a good incentive for Quality and noncollapsing bridges aswell.

ManwithBeard9

ecru wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

This doesn't follow. How can you be the most knowledgeable but not be able to actually play certain parts of the game? You will only have a limited understanding of what the gameplay experience of clearing certain content is like until you actually clear that content. Development in MMOs isn't a closed system. Players test things and give feedback on what it's actually like to play the content they're designing. If developers always knew best, trials and dungeons would never be adjusted after release, but changes are frequently made well after content is released for balance reasons.

Meaning that the devs know the mechanics, they know preferred skills and gear, they know preferred consumables. What they dont have is the muscle memory to perform great rotations for high DPS, situational awareness as tanks and healers to realize when something very bad is about to happen that might cause a wipe and either avoid or work through it.

JumpmanLane

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This idea has some major volatile potential.... But also, yes please. Do vet trials. Make sure it's the lead guys that have more say in the changes. Livestream it, don't just record and show later. Because I'm pretty sure these changes won't go live if they do even some of that.

The devs are the most knowledgeable about the game, it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

This doesn't follow. How can you be the most knowledgeable but not be able to actually play certain parts of the game? You will only have a limited understanding of what the gameplay experience of clearing certain content is like until you actually clear that content. Development in MMOs isn't a closed system. Players test things and give feedback on what it's actually like to play the content they're designing. If developers always knew best, trials and dungeons would never be adjusted after release, but changes are frequently made well after content is released for balance reasons.

Meaning that the devs know the mechanics, they know preferred skills and gear, they know preferred consumables. What they dont have is the muscle memory to perform great rotations for high DPS, situational awareness as tanks and healers to realize when something very bad is about to happen that might cause a wipe and either avoid or work through it.

Gilliam was pretty good at PvE lol.

UntilValhalla13

I would love to see them get through the triplets on vet with the pts changes.

MLGProPlayer

They wouldn't be able to clear any of the newer trials.

And this "vision" they have is strictly for PvP. This is what happens when you promote the former head of PvP to lead the combat design team. The dude hasn't a clue what goes on in PvE.

MLGProPlayer

spekdah wrote: »

Just a follow-up, streaming it would be beyond the call of duty, but I hope they do it at least perform these internally.

They do not. That's what the class rep program was supposed to give them, but they just ignore their feedback.

redlink1979

Agree, devs should show themselves on vCR+3 or vSS with the changes. Let see.

JumpmanLane

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They wouldn't be able to clear any of the newer trials.

And this "vision" they have is strictly for PvP. This is what happens when you promote the former head of PvP to lead the combat design team. The dude hasn't a clue what goes on in PvE.

If they pvp AT ALL they get carried just like they get carried in dungeons and trials.

Mizael

DLC trials with HM they should try

Turelus

idk wrote: »

The devs are not really raiders or serious players. If you ask a full dev team to do vSS on live they would probably fail. Asking them to do it on PTS would not demonstrate anything.

Indeed. It would make more sense to ask raiding guilds who are focused and trained to give it a go.

I do imagine ZOS has teams (testers) within the company that play and clear content, but I often feel the challenge of "if Devs can't do it, clearly it doesn't work" isn't fair as the devs are often not as skilled as the player base. It's a myth that you have to be good at playing your own game to develop it well.

Everrsor

Great idea 👍