What's going on with the Class Rep Program?
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Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭At this point I have to agree to some degree with Varanis.
The program exists to kind of advise the devs regarding class balance (well and other skilllines too) based on the feedback from the playerbase. So basically we reps can only compile feedback from the players willing to provide. Only actually a few percent of ESO's players actually do so, most of the players are not on the forum or do not even know, that class reps exist, but they also do not care. Many many players play the game for themselves, class balance, actually all kind of discussion, is irrelevant for them, because they just want to enjoy the game. Those people can not and do not want to give feedback, so they also can not really be represented.
About Varanis' statement: I can not really imagine a new player giving constructive advice towards class balance, which is the task of the program. A new player enters the game, chooses one class and levels up a bit. In this time he manages to level a few skills and tries to deal with overland contents and the first quests. Even if he bought the game, what can he tell me or the devs regarding class balance? Jabs' animation looks great? I am spamming burning ambers like crazy, but do not deal much damage? It is so much fun to snipe npc's from crouch? There is no relevant information the reps or devs can get out of such feedback.
Maybe new players have first impressions about some skills, but after some time they will have another impression about the same skill. Their feedback would be very unconsistent, maybe even changing from one day to another. Meanwhile players with several years of playtime and experience, experienced the same skills for a long time, have firm opinion about a skill till it may change in one patch. They can give consistent feedback, because they used their skills for a prolonged time, know their strengths and flaws and can alsi imagine how changes affect them.
Personally I prefer such consistent feedback over inconsistent information, mostly without sense or actual substance. The good point about the consistent feedback of experienced players is, that many people come to the same conclusion about one skill, they all experience a the same flaws of a skill. During the last year I read a lot of feedback about templars and it actually was quite easy to compile dense feedback for the devs, since many people stated the same pain points. An example would the crowd control ability from templar tanks, the lack of healing power of stamplars or the almost non-existent proactive defense of the class. So many people came up with exactly these pain points undependent of each other.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Checkmath, its been a while since I was a new player for ESO, but you described my experience as a new Warframe player to a T!
I started out with initial impressions that changed very often as I ranked up and got to play with different frames and weapons. I'm still learning a lot of stuff as I try different areas of end-game content, and its amazing how much my opinion of a warframe can change as I get more experienced with it. If you'd asked me a month ago what I thought of the frame Saryn Prime, I'd give two totally different answers as I've gotten better...and you'd still be much better off asking a player with more comprehensive experience with the game.
Its not that new players don't have some valuable feedback to offer in certain areas of game design, like the New Player Experience. Its just that their feedback in most other areas is inherently limited by being a new player, and often inconsistent as they gain more experience with the game, and I see that in myself as a relatively new player in Warframe.1 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What you are conflating is listening to and acting upon people's opinions. What I'm saying is dismissing an entire group of people's opinion on something is a good way to miss the boat.
If the majority of players influxing to the game and it to change and they are spending a bucket of cash, class reps mean nothing. Legitimate feedback from long term players means nothing.
If you summarily dismiss everyone without raid dps you are not getting a full breadth of informtion. You are cherry picking your statistics.
I am not suggesting that combat be changed from any feedback ar all. What i am suggesting is you keep an open mind and realize that you dobt get to dismiss people when you are a representative.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.4 -
slicksteezin✭✭✭✭
That's not the point though.
Considering that most of the eso combat cues come in the form of ground based highlights and that your field of view is fairly limited in first person, making it difficult to see the ground around you. I'd have to agree. First person view is not the most convenient when you're doing any "serious" content.
The point is that a class rep that is supposed to be the combat expert is publicly dismissing a portion of the player base with statements that were most likely meant as an insult.
1st person obviously has a limited field of view but ground effects are clearly visible and it has its on combat cues (albeit often too invasive).
Again, the point here isn't to discuss your personal opinion on 1st person vs. 3rd person but the behavior of someone who is supposed to represent *all* of the player base as a representative.
Class rep is there to represent and advocate on behalf of everyone, that doesn't mean implementing changes that cater to a very small minority of players who actually use first person in combat. Combat was not designed for first person in ESO. It is accurate to say that it is more for roleplaying visual purposes.
Taking that into account , Any changes made to alter/improve the fluidity of first person combat to cater to that very small minority would be time energy and resources that could be better spent on more important issues.
Class reps aren't their to cater to the single wishes of every single player . They are there to advocate on behalf of the majority.0 -
Ixilith✭✭✭
im pretty sure 99% of ESO is played 3rd person. Its the only ES game where 3rd person is actually better than 1st view.
I'm pretty sure you are 98% wrong ...
Polls indicate only numbers who vote not the entire population so pulling numbers from them is never true.
First person reduces field of view and your ability to move out of AoE due to lack of sight, and first person pvp would just get you killed repeatively
When people say switching the likelihood is they are using it for role play but go to third person when they are doing content. Which doesn’t really mean a yes either
Stop getting defensive over something that in a lot of cases is likely the reason, first person is a disadvantage combat system wise,0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭What you are conflating is listening to and acting upon people's opinions. What I'm saying is dismissing an entire group of people's opinion on something is a good way to miss the boat.
If the majority of players influxing to the game and it to change and they are spending a bucket of cash, class reps mean nothing. Legitimate feedback from long term players means nothing.
If you summarily dismiss everyone without raid dps you are not getting a full breadth of informtion. You are cherry picking your statistics.
I am not suggesting that combat be changed from any feedback ar all. What i am suggesting is you keep an open mind and realize that you dobt get to dismiss people when you are a representative.
And at what point did I say, that I dismiss every feedback from new players? I said, that I like consistent feedback, but never stated that I would not consider other feedback too. I am listening to pretty much everyone, who comes up with stuff to me, and evaluate what they said. I can not know for sure, if somebody is new to the game or an experienced player in here or on any other platform, which is why I still listen to every feedback I get. Sometimes I can imagine somebody being new based on their feedback, for example when it is very narrow-minded, not taking into account different scenarios and so on.
An example I had recently: Somebody I never saw before wrote in the templar thread, that jabs are borderline overpowered just looking at its number. But on the other hand, the author of this statement did not consider the disadvantage or advantage of different destruction staves, light attack damage, the channel time, the wonky delay it has together with weaving, the skills perfomance in PvP, where stuff moves, etc.
As you see, I keep such feedback in my mind, even if it differs from most other consistent feedback and many people disagreed with that person.1 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.
Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.
Thats why i made that post. To get some visual awareness back.
Everything else is opinion. There are ultra wide screens out there and people play ESO on it. PvP like rocket launcher arena on repulsing pads have been landmarks in 3D gaming. It is not "oldschool" and still a challange. There is always awareness in a 3D game. As in real life you can turn your neck...
Joke or irony, please keep 1st person in mind as a real and valid way of gaming. If a group beats a vDungeon in 1st person they should get the vv+ achievment imho
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This first vs third person perspective debate is absolutely stupid. It’s like people arguing over their favorite color. News flash everybody, some people use one perspective others prefer another, each has their uses.
I have more then 3 stars on these forums and I have completed vet trials. But that is not all that I do and I switch from first and third person perspectives all the time. (And I don’t belong to a single RP guild.) And to actually spend pages “debating” the merits of it is almost beyond belief.
This whole debate dismissing first person perspective feels like a prime example of “its not important to me, so it’s not important to everybody”.
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LukosCreyden✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The Class Rep program is dead in the water.
Has been so since its conception, far as I'm aware.Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Did a quick search and found 2 polls, one of which is as recent as February of this year.
One shows a 90%/9% split and one shows a 70%/21%/7% split where the third option (21%) is people voting "both" indicating they switch between the two.
So there's a solid base of 7%-9% playing exclusively in 1st person and a 21% base of players who switch between the two (like myself). That's about 30% of all ESO players.
That's far, far off your 99% estimate and validates my point above. A class rep should make an effort to represent *all* of the player base.
PS: Also not sure why ZOS polls don't add up to 100%. Just another bug in the long list of bugs i guess
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/250803/1st-person-or-3rd-person-view/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458416/first-person-or-3rd-person/p1
First of all that solid base of 7-9% is not from valid polling of the player base. Those that frequent the forums are very much not representative of the player base. Even at that those two polls are probably not even representative of those that frequent the forums.
Further, no one doing anything challenging is on first person view. They may prefer it overall when gaming but in ESO you will die a lot more since you see so much less. Clearly first person issues are not that big of a deal for one reason or another if you could only find two polls over the last several years.
Looking at the history of this conversation I do not even know why first person is even being discussed.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Checkmath
I have seen a couple posts of yours in here but have not scoured the entire thread for everything you have said.
I think players have a valid concern about what is happening with the class rep program. Not only have we seen nothing but silence in recent months (at least I have not seen any updates) but also the pinned message concerning the Class Rep program and means for providing feedback have not been updated and is full of dead links leading us to think there is no longer a means to provide feedback.
Yes, I know that the discords have been merged but someone looking for a means to provide feedback through the "official" channels is only finding links to dead discords and nothing to the threads for each subject and that thread is the official thread to help us find you.
Link provided below so you can pass it on to Gina as it should no longer be pinned or it needs to be updated.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels#latest0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Did a quick search and found 2 polls, one of which is as recent as February of this year.
One shows a 90%/9% split and one shows a 70%/21%/7% split where the third option (21%) is people voting "both" indicating they switch between the two.
So there's a solid base of 7%-9% playing exclusively in 1st person and a 21% base of players who switch between the two (like myself). That's about 30% of all ESO players.
That's far, far off your 99% estimate and validates my point above. A class rep should make an effort to represent *all* of the player base.
PS: Also not sure why ZOS polls don't add up to 100%. Just another bug in the long list of bugs i guess
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/250803/1st-person-or-3rd-person-view/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458416/first-person-or-3rd-person/p1
First of all that solid base of 7-9% is not from valid polling of the player base. Those that frequent the forums are very much not representative of the player base. Even at that those two polls are probably not even representative of those that frequent the forums.
Further, no one doing anything challenging is on first person view. They may prefer it overall when gaming but in ESO you will die a lot more since you see so much less. Clearly first person issues are not that big of a deal for one reason or another if you could only find two polls over the last several years.
Looking at the history of this conversation I do not even know why first person is even being discussed.
It was brought up as an example of the flaws in the class reps program.
(Although it was later stated the quote was a joke.) It appeared at that a class rep dismissed the need for a first person perspective in the game. That was given as an example of why the class rep system itself was flawed, it should not up to the class rep to decide what is and what is not important to the game. They should be reflecting the wants of the player base.
Wether first person perspective is important in end game combat is irrelevant if a majority of players do not engage in endgame content.Edited by BlueRaven on June 27, 2019 10:46AM0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Checkmath
I have seen a couple posts of yours in here but have not scoured the entire thread for everything you have said.
I think players have a valid concern about what is happening with the class rep program. Not only have we seen nothing but silence in recent months (at least I have not seen any updates) but also the pinned message concerning the Class Rep program and means for providing feedback have not been updated and is full of dead links leading us to think there is no longer a means to provide feedback.
Yes, I know that the discords have been merged but someone looking for a means to provide feedback through the "official" channels is only finding links to dead discords and nothing to the threads for each subject and that thread is the official thread to help us find you.
Link provided below so you can pass it on to Gina as it should no longer be pinned or it needs to be updated.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels#latest
You are right, the links of the old discord servers expired and we could not edit the official post from back then. Also we told the devs many times, that we would like to update that thread, but nothing happened there.
For the new discord server you find an updated link in my signature and in the thread I recently made about it. Keep in mind, the current server is more a discussion platform and not meant as source for feedback. To a later time point we may collect feedback through it tough.
Since you did not read all my comments in here before, I try to summarize for you the current state:
Currently 6 of 12 reps are remaining, most of them left due to in real life problems and did not find the time to commit to the program anymore. Still, Gina is almost at the end of the process of eelcting new reps to fill up the numbers again.
Since we gathered same feedback about class pain points again and again during last year, we currently have all pain points covered and stopped looking for much more feedback right now till those pain points are resolved. We still look at coming up issues like the implementation of new changes and the new class closely and compile lists of concerns for the new patches.
At the moment we are discussing already the coming changes for the next dungeon dlc with the devs. So we are more active with stuff, which falls under the NDA. This is also why there were not many news and notes about the program lately.
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like @SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.4 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What you are conflating is listening to and acting upon people's opinions. What I'm saying is dismissing an entire group of people's opinion on something is a good way to miss the boat.
If the majority of players influxing to the game and it to change and they are spending a bucket of cash, class reps mean nothing. Legitimate feedback from long term players means nothing.
If you summarily dismiss everyone without raid dps you are not getting a full breadth of informtion. You are cherry picking your statistics.
I am not suggesting that combat be changed from any feedback ar all. What i am suggesting is you keep an open mind and realize that you dobt get to dismiss people when you are a representative.
Honestly, this makes a lot more sense than saying that we ought to give equal weight to opinions that make no sense. Thanks for clarifying!0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
If ZoS is going to put their fingers in their ears and do what ever they want anyway, then maybe the title of “representative” should be changed.Edited by BlueRaven on June 27, 2019 11:28AM0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Why? They're still representing the views they gather or the player side of the issue.
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
If ZoS is going to put their fingers in their ears and do what ever they want anyway, then maybe the word “representative” should be changed.
Both ZOS and the Reps have already said that the Necromancer had a lot of changes based directly on feedback via the rep programme. We might not know what exactly that is, but there you have an example where something in development received feedback and was changed (one would assume for the better).
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes2 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭JumpmanLane wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
But even tough you are an inhabitant of some country somewhere, where you pay taxes and bills and so on, still your word in politics matters in the end much less than the countries executive.
What executive? It’s government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people where I’m from. And anybody who thinks otherwise ends up in Federal prison or sniffing around for a pardon.
Lawl....0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Why? They're still representing the views they gather or the player side of the issue.
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
If ZoS is going to put their fingers in their ears and do what ever they want anyway, then maybe the word “representative” should be changed.
Both ZOS and the Reps have already said that the Necromancer had a lot of changes based directly on feedback via the rep programme. We might not know what exactly that is, but there you have an example where something in development received feedback and was changed (one would assume for the better).
And yet here we are still with a myriad of other problems such as the above mentioned racials, the endgame use of bows in trials, and things like why some classes have ultimates that are only useful in PvP.
I would suggest to you that the developers WANTED to change necros and that is the only reason you see this happening.
Representative belays a false narrative that they exist to represent the players wants, this does not appear to be the case. Rather they are just a group of people the developers are sometimes willing to talk to about a narrow list of issues.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes
If the purpose of this system is only about the needs of endgame players, I would add that to the list of reasons why it should be changed or abolished.
If a new player is confused or does not like something, that should be brought up to the developers not ignored.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Why? They're still representing the views they gather or the player side of the issue.
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
If ZoS is going to put their fingers in their ears and do what ever they want anyway, then maybe the word “representative” should be changed.
Both ZOS and the Reps have already said that the Necromancer had a lot of changes based directly on feedback via the rep programme. We might not know what exactly that is, but there you have an example where something in development received feedback and was changed (one would assume for the better).
And yet here we are still with a myriad of other problems such as the above mentioned racials, the endgame use of bows in trials, and things like why some classes have ultimates that are only useful in PvP.
I would suggest to you that the developers WANTED to change necros and that is the only reason you see this happening.
Representative belays a false narrative that they exist to represent the players wants, this does not appear to be the case. Rather they are just a group of people the developers are sometimes willing to talk to about a narrow list of issues.
And I think you are assuming the Reps have more power than they do.
Here's my view of the situation.
The Reps were never going to convince ZOS on everything. Some things, sure, and we've seen examples where the Rep feedback resulted in changes. Necromancer, some of the Murkmire PTS changes, etc. Its harder to see it now that the Reps aren't releasing their meeting notes...which might be something for them and ZOS to think about. Without those notes, its a lot harder to see the benefit the class reps have for the average player.
So I think you are incorrect to say that the Reps are not representing what the players want just because SOME of the things players want didn't happen.
A. Stuff players want not happening is to be expected, even when the Reps DO telll the devs. The devs made it clear that they are the ones who decide what happens. The Reps could appeal for Bosmer stealth til they are blue in the face and it won't matter if ZOS has their heart set on it.
B. Not everything that players want is actually useful for the Devs Just look at how some players want to have a stronger class identity and other players want to be able to play any role on any class. The Reps can bring all that info from both sides to the Devs...but its the Devs who make those design choices and at least some players are going to feel like what they want got disregarded.
C. The Devs have their own vision and priorities that at times differs from the playerbase. We saw this play out with Murkmire. We see it again whenever ZOS pulls one of those nerfs that make us go "Wait, what? Why?" We see this with the racial passives and skill overhauls. ZOS wants their PVE content to be challenging. ZOS wants the meta to constantly be changing. ZOS wants to change up trial team composition every so often. ZOS wants to run Cyrodiil a certain way, and so on. The Devs are designing ESO according to their vision, not trying to create a game that follows player whims.
In other words, the Reps represent. They don't guarantee that ZOS will listen to them. They don't guarantee that ZOS will actually do what the player base wants (as contradictory as that can sometimes be). ZOS made it pretty clear after Murkmire that the power of decision making lies with the Devs.
So when you don't get what you want after communicating that on the forums and with a class rep...
Its not that the Class Reps didn't represent you or that ZOS ignored your forum feedback. Its that ZOS decided to do things their own way.Edited by VaranisArano on June 27, 2019 12:18PM2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes
If a new player is confused or does not like something, that should be brought up to the developers not ignored.
Here is a perfect example of a new player being confused:
A couple of months ago I met a new player who thought he had to use the weapon that his character's race "specializes" in. He was a Redguard and in one of the racial descriptions for Redguard it says they get bonus XP for the OH and Shield skill line. That player, who was new to the game and was gathering information via reading the racial passives, thought he would be at a disadvantage if he didn't use OH and Shield, even though he really wanted to use a bow and dual wield. It wasn't until I explained to him that it wasn't hurting him to use the weapons he wanted, that he felt comfortable to play how he wanted.
That player likely isn't going to come onto the forums and provide feedback for his experience. It seems like a small thing (the wording of a racial passive from the perspective of a new player), but it was entirely changing the way that player enjoyed the game. Once I let him know he didn't have to use OH and Shield, he immediately swapped weapons and was happier for it. I thought I was helping by bringing it up on the forums, but I was surprised to see some pushback from forum community members:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/472045/simple-suggestion-to-help-new-players-remove-the-text-that-grants-racial-exp-gain#latestEdited by GrumpyDuckling on June 27, 2019 12:29PM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes
If the purpose of this system is only about the needs of endgame players, I would add that to the list of reasons why it should be changed or abolished.
If a new player is confused or does not like something, that should be brought up to the developers not ignored.
I don't know that anyone is suggesting that new players should be ignored entirely...only that new player feedback generally isn't useful for a program that's representing player feedback on ALL classes in ALL content. New players, by definition, have a limited view of the game because of inexperience.
I'll use myself as an example. When I was a new player, I played a Dunmer MagDK. Who used One Hand and Shield for overland questing, with most of my attributes in health, and didn't use a food buff. I didn't do group content. I hated the thought of PVP. My "rotation" pretty much consisted of spamming Burning Embers.
I obviously didn't know enough about how the game worked to offer feedback on anything more than my impression as a brand new player. The idea that my feedback as a new player should guide Dragonknight development in group content or PVP is laughable, given my lack of understanding how Dragonknights worked.
The feedback threads ask for players to give two pain points with their class. I think back to myself as a new DK player and see that all of my early pain points could have been solved if I'd better understood how the game actually worked...and all that came from experience or asking for help from more experienced players. (And in truth, the vast majority of threads I see from new players now asking for help are still usually resolved by explaining how ESO works in terms of stamina/magicka scaling, battleleveling, armor/gear, dungeon roles, and so on.)
So now I'm curious. When you were a new player, do you feel that you had sufficient knowledge to offer substantive feedback on how your first class worked to the Class Rep program? Do you think that your early pain points were solved through gaining more experience with the game or do they continue to be pain points for the class right now?Edited by VaranisArano on June 27, 2019 12:53PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GhostofDatthaw wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes
If a new player is confused or does not like something, that should be brought up to the developers not ignored.
Here is a perfect example of a new player being confused:
A couple of months ago I met a new player who thought he had to use the weapon that his character's race "specializes" in. He was a Redguard and in one of the racial descriptions for Redguard it says they get bonus XP for the OH and Shield skill line. That player, who was new to the game and was gathering information via reading the racial passives, thought he would be at a disadvantage if he didn't use OH and Shield, even though he really wanted to use a bow and dual wield. It wasn't until I explained to him that it wasn't hurting him to use the weapons he wanted, that he felt comfortable to play how he wanted.
That player likely isn't going to come onto the forums and provide feedback for his experience. It seems like a small thing (the wording of a racial passive from the perspective of a new player), but it was entirely changing the way that player enjoyed the game. Once I let him know he didn't have to use OH and Shield, he immediately swapped weapons and was happier for it. I thought I was helping by bringing it up on the forums, but I was surprised to see some pushback from forum community members:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/472045/simple-suggestion-to-help-new-players-remove-the-text-that-grants-racial-exp-gain#latest
That's an excellent example of the New Player Experience that the Devs shouldn't ignore. I'm glad you brought it up.
But for the purposes of this thread, does it really come under the purview of the Class Reps?
I'd argue no. Its not really a pain point for any of the classes, nor does it have any impact on balancing the classes in PVE and PVP.0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The point is @VaranisArano that @checkmath is the "combat representative" from his signature. That is irrelevant to individual class or skill, from the second you step into the intro and pick up a weapon he represents you.
So. If the pain points from all these new players are they don't understand the basics of the game then the combat rep should be asking for how to fix that.
For example:
A major pain point for sorcs and wardens is pet pathing and a.i.. I have run into many 810 who don't understand you can retract and send out your pets. A proper combat representative would advocate for a tooltip that pops up when you summon a pet for the first time that says "Hold Y and left click to send pets right click to retreive them".
Instead they make jokes about people not being able to fight in 1st person.
You are not better than those you represent simply because you were chosen to represent them and if you dismiss those you feel are trivial you are a bad representative.
Now if combat representative is not the correct title and checkmath is for a specific class that's one thing, but if it's combat that is EVERYONE.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
Why? They're still representing the views they gather or the player side of the issue.
I think people expect more from the system then what it's designed to be.From my perspective the whole system seems to be incredibly flawed. From an outside perspective it appears the the class reps and the devs seem to work in a bubble. I don’t know how else to explain some of the baffling changes that go on to the live game (example; Bosmer and argonian racial adjustments).
The system (somewhere) is deeply flawed.
It might be that the class reps are trying to explain any issues to the devs, but if it all falls on deaf developer ears then what’s the point? Like SirAndy I don’t see the point in a system that allows such bizarre changes to happen. So to me the class rep system can exist or not, from my perspective it appears to make little difference.
ZOS never said "Class Reps are here to drive the direction of development" they're there to highlight issues and advise, and ZOS as the owner and developer does what it wants with that.
The same has been seen in other games with rep programmes, sometimes things don't go ahead because the company is shown why it would be bad, other times the company is set on the idea and sure it's what they want for the game, so they go ahead with it.
If the reps did have the power to drive the game, then the forums would just be even more full of people being mad that reps don't represent their view or niche.
If ZoS is going to put their fingers in their ears and do what ever they want anyway, then maybe the word “representative” should be changed.
Both ZOS and the Reps have already said that the Necromancer had a lot of changes based directly on feedback via the rep programme. We might not know what exactly that is, but there you have an example where something in development received feedback and was changed (one would assume for the better).
And yet here we are still with a myriad of other problems such as the above mentioned racials, the endgame use of bows in trials, and things like why some classes have ultimates that are only useful in PvP.
I would suggest to you that the developers WANTED to change necros and that is the only reason you see this happening.
Representative belays a false narrative that they exist to represent the players wants, this does not appear to be the case. Rather they are just a group of people the developers are sometimes willing to talk to about a narrow list of issues.
And I think you are assuming the Reps have more power than they do.
Here's my view of the situation.
The Reps were never going to convince ZOS on everything. Some things, sure, and we've seen examples where the Rep feedback resulted in changes. Necromancer, some of the Murkmire PTS changes, etc. Its harder to see it now that the Reps aren't releasing their meeting notes...which might be something for them and ZOS to think about. Without those notes, its a lot harder to see the benefit the class reps have for the average player.
So I think you are incorrect to say that the Reps are not representing what the players want just because SOME of the things players want didn't happen.
A. Stuff players want not happening is to be expected, even when the Reps DO telll the devs. The devs made it clear that they are the ones who decide what happens. The Reps could appeal for Bosmer stealth til they are blue in the face and it won't matter if ZOS has their heart set on it.
B. Not everything that players want is actually useful for the Devs Just look at how some players want to have a stronger class identity and other players want to be able to play any role on any class. The Reps can bring all that info from both sides to the Devs...but its the Devs who make those design choices and at least some players are going to feel like what they want got disregarded.
C. The Devs have their own vision and priorities that at times differs from the playerbase. We saw this play out with Murkmire. We see it again whenever ZOS pulls one of those nerfs that make us go "Wait, what? Why?" We see this with the racial passives and skill overhauls. ZOS wants their PVE content to be challenging. ZOS wants the meta to constantly be changing. ZOS wants to change up trial team composition every so often. ZOS wants to run Cyrodiil a certain way, and so on. The Devs are designing ESO according to their vision, not trying to create a game that follows player whims.
In other words, the Reps represent. They don't guarantee that ZOS will listen to them. They don't guarantee that ZOS will actually do what the player base wants (as contradictory as that can sometimes be). ZOS made it pretty clear after Murkmire that the power of decision making lies with the Devs.
So when you don't get what you want after communicating that on the forums and with a class rep...
Its not that the Class Reps didn't represent you or that ZOS ignored your forum feedback. Its that ZOS decided to do things their own way.
To your points;
A ) I ask the question again, if the reps do bring up concerns to the devs, and the devs ignore them, then what is the point? If a boss were to invite a labor representative to company meetings and then ignore them over most things. Then what is the purpose of the rep being there? It just reinforces a false narrative that the concerns that the representative brings forward are being listened to.
B ) I would suggest that stronger class identity AND being able to play any role with any class are NOT opposing view points. A NB healer and a sorc healer should both be viable, but how their healing spells look and perform should be unique to each class. Again both are valid concerns, are the devs hearing this? Do they care? How can we tell?
C ) Whims? A player can't come into this game wanting to make a particular race role combination, and then being told it's ok and to play your way through leveling, and then get to endgame and be told that the race roll class combo is not viable because Zos wills it so. That is what we have now. Want to be a Bosmer tank? Hope you have friends, because no pug group will want you for vet content.
It's one thing to "break up old metas" its another to just create and reinforce new ones.
I thought the purpose of the race changes was to make all of the races more viable. But all it did was make Bosmer's a PvP only race. Orcs NOT wear plate and carry a shield like they traditionally did, and instead become the lone star stamina dps. And to have the question "Why would anyone choose a high elf for a magicka dps" an actual topic of discussion.
ALL of this could have been avoidable if ZOS listened to what the "whims" of the players. Instead we get a confused player base looking to the ZOS / class rep system, with the class reps essentially shrugging.
••••
Again if the the player base is looking at the class rep system for support and the class reps are saying we can't give you that support, then don't have a class rep system. It creates a false image that the concerns (i.e. "whims") of the players are taken into account, and if they are not taken into account the players should know that.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »GhostofDatthaw wrote: »I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.
Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
I'm terms of balance and game play someone who started yesterday vs someone since beta? Why WOULD you listen to listen to someone who just started? They don't fully understand the game. They just dont.
Someone who just started should ask questions, not insist for changes
If the purpose of this system is only about the needs of endgame players, I would add that to the list of reasons why it should be changed or abolished.
If a new player is confused or does not like something, that should be brought up to the developers not ignored.
I don't know that anyone is suggesting that new players should be ignored entirely...only that new player feedback generally isn't useful for a program that's representing player feedback on ALL classes in ALL content. New players, by definition, have a limited view of the game because of inexperience.
I'll use myself as an example. When I was a new player, I played a Dunmer MagDK. Who used One Hand and Shield for overland questing, with most of my attributes in health, and didn't use a food buff. I didn't do group content. I hated the thought of PVP. My "rotation" pretty much consisted of spamming Burning Embers.
I obviously didn't know enough about how the game worked to offer feedback on anything more than my impression as a brand new player. The idea that my feedback as a new player should guide Dragonknight development in group content or PVP is laughable, given my lack of understanding how Dragonknights worked.
The feedback threads ask for players to give two pain points with their class. I think back to myself as a new DK player and see that all of my early pain points could have been solved if I'd better understood how the game actually worked...and all that came from experience or asking for help from more experienced players. (And in truth, the vast majority of threads I see from new players now asking for help are still usually resolved by explaining how ESO works in terms of stamina/magicka scaling, battleleveling, armor/gear, dungeon roles, and so on.)
So now I'm curious. When you were a new player, do you feel that you had sufficient knowledge to offer substantive feedback on how your first class worked to the Class Rep program? Do you think that your early pain points were solved through gaining more experience with the game or do they continue to be pain points for the class right now?
When I was a new player, everyone was a new player. I have been here since beta.
When I was in beta I did not want to spoil the questing for myself so of all times I was in it I rarely leveled past 10 on any character.
But by the time I brought my fourth character up to Vet Level 16 (and had two others at Vet level 12) there would have been a great list of things that should have been made clear to starting players. (And quite frankly highlight the games weaknesses.) Such as races are defined by being for magicka builds others are for stamina builds. Knowing what a stamina and magicka build actually means before choosing a race and creating a character would have been helpful.
This game pretends to be open and broad like the ES games before it, but by the time you reach endgame, only specific class-race-roll combo's are viable. That should be told to new players as well. I have seen too many players freak out that they choose poorly at the character creations screen.
A new players views on how they choose a race-roll combo should be of great interest to developers and class devs and they should accommodate that in the end game meta.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The point is @VaranisArano that checkmath is the "combat representative" from his signature. That is irrelevant to individual class or skill, from the second you step into the intro and pick up a weapon he represents you.
So. If the pain points from all these new players are they don't understand the basics of the game then the combat rep should be asking for how to fix that.
For example:
A major pain point for sorcs and wardens is pet pathing and a.i.. I have run into many 810 who don't understand you can retract and send out your pets. A proper combat representative would advocate for a tooltip that pops up when you summon a pet for the first time that says "Hold Y and left click to send pets right click to retreive them".
Instead they make jokes about people not being able to fight in 1st person.
You are not better than those you represent simply because you were chosen to represent them and if you dismiss those you feel are trivial you are a bad representative.
Now if combat representative is not the correct title and checkmath is for a specific class that's one thing, but if it's combat that is EVERYONE.
So one thing I brought up in a later comment was the idea that "Did my pain points as a new player continue to be pain points as I gained experience?"
And I'd agree that Sorc pet pathing has continued to be a pain point even as I've gained experience!
Which if both new players and more experienced Sorc players are seeing the same pain point, that's something I'd expect the class reps to pass along for the Devs to look at. As usual, the Devs have their own priorities. (I suspect that pet pathing problems is one reason we didnt get persistent necro minions like I know some players wanted.)
In my experience, most new player pain points could he resolved with a better tutorial, better tooltips, or ESO actually bothering to explain how stamina/magicka scaling and other basic mechanics work, including How To Command Your Pets 101. So while the Devs ought to listen to that sort of feedback when it comes to streamlining the New Player Experience, that's not really the sort of feedback that's useful for balancing ALL classes in ALL content.
I'm judging by the Class Rep Notes here. They don't seem to focus on how brand new players experience/understand/misunderstand the game. Rather, most of the discussion is on class pain points for skills in PVE and PVP.1