What's going on with the Class Rep Program?

SirAndy

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

This is now a nerf first person thread.

No, as far as i'm concerned it's a "i'm glad that biased, useless and largely ignored by ZOS class rep program died a slow and painful death" thread.

We've been down this road with ZOS before.
Search for the closed 24/7 in-house beta group "The Psijic Order" or the post launch in-game guild GM program called "The Council of Nirn".

Both were previous attempts from ZOS to have a closer relationship with (parts of) their player base, and both ultimately failed.

The Psijic Order had it's own dedicated 24/7 access test server while everyone else was doing beta weekend sessions throughout 2013. We played the game for 6 months straight before PC launch and gave a wealth of feedback (and bug reports). Towards the end it became pretty clear that we were largely ignored by ZOS. When ESO launched on the PC they used a version of the game we had never seen before on the test server that was riddled with new (and old) bugs. Anyone who was here for PC launch probably remembers that mess.

The Council of Nirn came to be a while after PC launch and it was a selected group of in-game GMs that met with ZOS on a semi regular basis. And again, our feedback was at large ignored and the council eventually dissolved in an ocean of disappointment (ok, that might be a bit over dramatic)

Minno

SirAndy wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Went to each of the polls. They are littered with 3rd Person votes in comments. And of all those comments 3rd person voters are all 5-star and up activity on the forums. All for 1st Person votes are 3-star and below activity on the forums.

So, that means everyone that voted for 3rd person isn't playing the game but instead hangs out here on the forums while everyone that voted 1st person spends most of their time in-game actually playing.

Got it, makes perfect sense ...

no but it also doesn't mean you hold the opinion of a class rep that mostly plays end-game where 3rd person both designed and vital, as a golden rule standard reason to spend dev resources in order to make first person better when there are other issues more important.

SirAndy

Minno wrote: »

no but it also doesn't mean you hold the opinion of a class rep that mostly plays end-game where 3rd person both designed and vital, as a golden rule standard reason to spend dev resources in order to make first person better when there are other issues more important.

I hold many opinions, some of which include end-game.

A class rep that is only focused on a small portion of the game is biased and useless. Simple as that.

Minno

SirAndy wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

no but it also doesn't mean you hold the opinion of a class rep that mostly plays end-game where 3rd person both designed and vital, as a golden rule standard reason to spend dev resources in order to make first person better when there are other issues more important.

I hold many opinions, some of which include end-game.

A class rep that is only focused on a small portion of the game is biased and useless. Simple as that.

good point. So the rep should have more or less experience than the average player in order to compile the experience of the average player?

Dagoth_Rac

idk wrote: »

But I digress. Zos has a history or not listening to players feedback in controlled and semi-controlled tests. This goes back to alpha and beta. Since launch it is most notable that Zos flew players like Gilliamtherogue, Alcast, Woeler and more to play test the game leading up Morrowind.

During that play testing Zos and the players discussed many aspects of the game, ideas and more. Zos purposely left out the biggest changes which was the heavy nerf to sustain across the board including the reword of CP.

Morrowind chapter featured a massive nerf to sustain. And the Trial that came with Morrowind was loaded to the brim with mechanics that assumed you had infinite sustain and drained your resources. ZOS cannot even communicate with themselves, let alone the players.

Checkmath

Hey guys, small update for you in here worrying if the reps still exist or the program is already dead:

Currently from the original 12 reps six are remaining, most of the others left due to in real life stuff not having the time anymore to invest into the program. Currently Gina is evaluating the applications of new reps, she was looking for like 2 months ago. We soon will see again a full program of 12 reps.

Still I agree with many of you guys, that it is currently very quiet around the program. This is mostly the case, because we talk internally with the devs about the next update already and its changes. Naturally we can not talk openly about them. The next meeting with the devs will be in the next few weeks and again, there will be no notes, because we will talk about future updates and information is under NDA.

Maybe you heard about, that we closed the discords. This is mostly about many people not being that happy with discord as information source. Also the devs are working on a new official forum section for the feedback.

@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

Turelus

Checkmath wrote: »

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

There are no jokes on the ESO forums. Everything is literal.

Minno

Turelus wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

There are no jokes on the ESO forums. Everything is literal.

Tagline for the ERP community lol.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys, small update for you in here worrying if the reps still exist or the program is already dead:

Currently from the original 12 reps six are remaining, most of the others left due to in real life stuff not having the time anymore to invest into the program. Currently Gina is evaluating the applications of new reps, she was looking for like 2 months ago. We soon will see again a full program of 12 reps.

Still I agree with many of you guys, that it is currently very quiet around the program. This is mostly the case, because we talk internally with the devs about the next update already and its changes. Naturally we can not talk openly about them. The next meeting with the devs will be in the next few weeks and again, there will be no notes, because we will talk about future updates and information is under NDA.

Maybe you heard about, that we closed the discords. This is mostly about many people not being that happy with discord as information source. Also the devs are working on a new official forum section for the feedback.

@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

not to rip into you, but youd think ZOS would mention they were thinking of adding a new forum section for the rep program.
And we havent seen zos generated rep notes for like half a year.

Program is kinda dead till I see more reports.

Checkmath

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys, small update for you in here worrying if the reps still exist or the program is already dead:

Currently from the original 12 reps six are remaining, most of the others left due to in real life stuff not having the time anymore to invest into the program. Currently Gina is evaluating the applications of new reps, she was looking for like 2 months ago. We soon will see again a full program of 12 reps.

Still I agree with many of you guys, that it is currently very quiet around the program. This is mostly the case, because we talk internally with the devs about the next update already and its changes. Naturally we can not talk openly about them. The next meeting with the devs will be in the next few weeks and again, there will be no notes, because we will talk about future updates and information is under NDA.

Maybe you heard about, that we closed the discords. This is mostly about many people not being that happy with discord as information source. Also the devs are working on a new official forum section for the feedback.

@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

not to rip into you, but youd think ZOS would mention they were thinking of adding a new forum section for the rep program.
And we havent seen zos generated rep notes for like half a year.

Program is kinda dead till I see more reports.

As said, we can not publish rep notes, since the information discussed is under NDA. I guess as soon as the information is public anyway through patch notes, neither the devs nor most players care anymore for the notes.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys, small update for you in here worrying if the reps still exist or the program is already dead:

Currently from the original 12 reps six are remaining, most of the others left due to in real life stuff not having the time anymore to invest into the program. Currently Gina is evaluating the applications of new reps, she was looking for like 2 months ago. We soon will see again a full program of 12 reps.

Still I agree with many of you guys, that it is currently very quiet around the program. This is mostly the case, because we talk internally with the devs about the next update already and its changes. Naturally we can not talk openly about them. The next meeting with the devs will be in the next few weeks and again, there will be no notes, because we will talk about future updates and information is under NDA.

Maybe you heard about, that we closed the discords. This is mostly about many people not being that happy with discord as information source. Also the devs are working on a new official forum section for the feedback.

@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

not to rip into you, but youd think ZOS would mention they were thinking of adding a new forum section for the rep program.
And we havent seen zos generated rep notes for like half a year.

Program is kinda dead till I see more reports.

As said, we can not publish rep notes, since the information discussed is under NDA. I guess as soon as the information is public anyway through patch notes, neither the devs nor most players care anymore for the notes.

And once that ball is rolling, all the feedback generated is then placed at the back of the que till the next DLC is released because they dont have time to add that feedback in during the aggressive nature of their deadlines. It's not a good structure and why alot of players are fedup.

I guess that means our feedback for the reps is that the rep feedback system is not working to capture our feedback each DLC lol.

Checkmath

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys, small update for you in here worrying if the reps still exist or the program is already dead:

Currently from the original 12 reps six are remaining, most of the others left due to in real life stuff not having the time anymore to invest into the program. Currently Gina is evaluating the applications of new reps, she was looking for like 2 months ago. We soon will see again a full program of 12 reps.

Still I agree with many of you guys, that it is currently very quiet around the program. This is mostly the case, because we talk internally with the devs about the next update already and its changes. Naturally we can not talk openly about them. The next meeting with the devs will be in the next few weeks and again, there will be no notes, because we will talk about future updates and information is under NDA.

Maybe you heard about, that we closed the discords. This is mostly about many people not being that happy with discord as information source. Also the devs are working on a new official forum section for the feedback.

@SirAndy
Thank you for taking up a quote from me. Sadly you did not get, that my comment was pure irony.
First person is not only for roleplayers, many new players use it (maybe by the default setting or because they just like the way to look at the world of tamriel like this better). But first person, as many others already stated, is not optimzed to play the game to its fullest. Many effects get overwriden in first person, some effects even fill up half of the screen so you barely can see, also situational awareness is mcuh lower in first person since you can not watch your back. That is why playing in third person is the better way for everything a bit harder than overland content and questing. Especially PvP, trials and veteran dungeons are places, where you are dead, when you do not watch your back.

Again, my comment in the other thread was a joke and not meant seriously. I mean...I put a damn smiley there sticking out its tongue...it does not get much more obvious, that I was joking.

not to rip into you, but youd think ZOS would mention they were thinking of adding a new forum section for the rep program.
And we havent seen zos generated rep notes for like half a year.

Program is kinda dead till I see more reports.

As said, we can not publish rep notes, since the information discussed is under NDA. I guess as soon as the information is public anyway through patch notes, neither the devs nor most players care anymore for the notes.

And once that ball is rolling, all the feedback generated is then placed at the back of the que till the next DLC is released because they dont have time to add that feedback in during the aggressive nature o. It's not a good structure and why alot of players are fedup.

I guess that means our feedback for the reps is that the rep feedback system is not working to capture our feedback each DLC lol.

No, they alse reevaluate the changes they already implemented or brought on the pts, where we still gather feedback about and voice the upcoming reactions. We just stopped gathering feedback about the state of the classes, because we already did that during the last year. ZOS got a whole list of problems of each classes and hopefully work on that.

So basically we already got the problems of classes covered and now focus more on feedback about the changes they implement right now.

Through the discords and the class threads we heard same feedback again and again, which is why we stopped being that active there. That feedback is already brought up.

Gilvoth

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Chelo

SirAndy wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

youll never meet a more passionate rep than checkmath

Who also dismissed a sizable portion of the ESO player base by stating that 1st person view is for role playing.

I for one am glad that someone like that has no voice anymore as a "Combat representative".

Because it is...

Checkmath

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

Chelo

SirAndy wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

youll never meet a more passionate rep than checkmath

Who also dismissed a sizable portion of the ESO player base by stating that 1st person view is for role playing.
I for one am glad that someone like that has no voice anymore as a "Combat representative".

im pretty sure 99% of ESO is played 3rd person. Its the only ES game where 3rd person is actually better than 1st view.

I'm pretty sure you are 98% wrong ...

Im 100% sure that 100% of the PvP player base plays in 3rd person. You simply can't play PvP in 1st person, you would get destroyed without even seen who attacked you...

Gilvoth

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

it's not fair.
we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

Checkmath

Gilvoth wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

it's not fair.
we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta and did all the content regarding class balance?

Just a question, its his opinion and that is his right to think so.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

he brings up a point though. Everything is filtered through 12 sets of eyes, but there are things 12 sets of eyes can't see in the short span of their DLC cycle. Like what happens when zos decides to change how mitigation is calculated by introducing new spells that mitigate/deal dmg in a new way but the reps aren't the ones hard-testing mitigation all the time in real-time so its true buff/nerf goes unchanged till a year later when its tested fully by the community?

Thankfully we have masel for this example as a good rep to have on hand, but even he said vulnerabilities always worked subtractive and thus were working as intended but missed the part where we tested vulnerabilities again and confirmed them to be added together then subtracted against % based sources resulting in less mitigation overall for certain sets/builds and buffs to classes with vulnerabilies with high uptimes (incap cough). We even found a bug when major protection and minor protection stack in this example, but that info was deleted when the reps decided the discords were to be deleted but this info was on the tank discord including a spreadsheet showing its confirmation lol.

Checkmath

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

he brings up a point though. Everything is filtered through 12 sets of eyes, but there are things 12 sets of eyes can't see in the short span of their DLC cycle. Like what happens when zos decides to change how mitigation is calculated by introducing new spells that mitigate/deal dmg in a new way but the reps aren't the ones hard-testing mitigation all the time in real-time so its true buff/nerf goes unchanged till a year later when its tested fully by the community?

Thankfully we have masel for this example as a good rep to have on hand, but even he said vulnerabilities always worked subtractive and thus were working as intended but missed the part where we tested vulnerabilities again and confirmed them to be added together then subtracted against % based sources resulting in less mitigation overall for certain sets/builds and buffs to classes with vulnerabilies with high uptimes (incap cough). We even found a bug when major protection and minor protection stack in this example, but that info was deleted when the reps decided the discords were to be deleted but this info was on the tank discord including a spreadsheet showing its confirmation lol.

I saw your feedback about mitigation and I asked the devs about it. Naturally they did not respond to it, since they do not give away calculations.

And I agree, six or 12 reps can not see everything, but the same goes for the devs skimming through the forum. We can hand over to the devs as much as we see, but not more. But to some degree it is also not our responsability to pass on bugs and features. So your example actually should reach the devs on other ways like the bug section on the forum.

Gilvoth

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
noted.
in Translation:
other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

it's not fair.
we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta

Everyone needs a voice and to be heard with a direct line to the developers, not just a small group!
so YES absolutely everyone should be heard, even new comers.

Gilvoth

the program shouldn't exist. or atleast should be changed to let all of us be heard, not just a few.

Gilvoth

double post

Turelus

ITT

ESO Community: ZOS doesn't listen to class reps so the programme is dead.

Also ESO Community: ZOS needs to stop listening to only the class reps.

Edit: Also big thanks Checkmath for taking the time to update everyone on what's been happening, it's much appreciated.

Gilvoth

Turelus wrote: »

ITT

ESO Community: ZOS doesn't listen to class reps so the programme is dead.

Also ESO Community: ZOS needs to stop listening to only the class reps.

Edit: Also big thanks Checkmath for taking the time to update everyone on what's been happening, it's much appreciated.

well said
and yes thank you Checkmath for the update.

J2JMC

Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

Turelus

J2JMC wrote: »

Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

Whilst there has been homogenization I don't think it's as drastic as people make out.
Also in theory the point of the reps would be to try and explain to ZOS cases where this isn't a good idea and would further diminish the unique flavour of classes and abilities.

Checkmath

J2JMC wrote: »

Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

Yes there is a point. As you stated, currently the devs try to standardize and homogenize skills and skilllines a bit to establish some kind of standard rules like cone aoes deal 80% of a single targets damage, meanwhile a round aoe like 60% and so on.

As soon as those standards are accomplished, they can even better look at the classes and their current performance. As example, if templars would be underperforming regarding dps and the devs have this clear image of the templar being a master of aoe and splash damage, then they can buff certain aoe abilities of the class to be exceptions compared to the standards. Those exceptios then would define the class concept. If nightblade is meant to be a single target class, then naturally it would make sense to give surprise attack a a higher tooltip than other single target skills and so on.

We currently already see some parts of this image, an example would be the warden, which has with falcon swiftness the longest major expedition buff (at least as usable skill in fights). Therefore this skill is a rulebreaker compared to other sources of major expadition, which all last only 4 seconds.

In conclusion, yes they currently standardize skills and skilllines, but can later on based on those standards start creating uniqueness for the classes by giving them rulebreakers.

And exactly at this point the class reps again get important for doing their job. Also is absolutely not the case, that we are doing nothing right now while the standardisation is happening. Even though it is an audit, many skills have seen a total rework in function, which creates the need of feedback. Additionally we can right now point out, when we see some standardisation changes, if a specific change makes sense to be standardisized or will need adjustements later on to bring classes in line with others or will need adjustement to fit in as future rulebreaker.

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

Yes there is a point. As you stated, currently the devs try to standardize and homogenize skills and skilllines a bit to establish some kind of standard rules like cone aoes deal 80% of a single targets damage, meanwhile a round aoe like 60% and so on.

As soon as those standards are accomplished, they can even better look at the classes and their current performance. As example, if templars would be underperforming regarding dps and the devs have this clear image of the templar being a master of aoe and splash damage, then they can buff certain aoe abilities of the class to be exceptions compared to the standards. Those exceptios then would define the class concept. If nightblade is meant to be a single target class, then naturally it would make sense to give surprise attack a a higher tooltip than other single target skills and so on.

We currently already see some parts of this image, an example would be the warden, which has with falcon swiftness the longest major expedition buff (at least as usable skill in fights). Therefore this skill is a rulebreaker compared to other sources of major expadition, which all last only 4 seconds.

In conclusion, yes they currently standardize skills and skilllines, but can later on based on those standards start creating uniqueness for the classes by giving them rulebreakers.

And exactly at this point the class reps again get important for doing their job. Also is absolutely not the case, that we are doing nothing right now while the standardisation is happening. Even though it is an audit, many skills have seen a total rework in function, which creates the need of feedback. Additionally we can right now point out, when we see some standardisation changes, if a specific change makes sense to be standardisized or will need adjustements later on to bring classes in line with others or will need adjustement to fit in as future rulebreaker.

im fine with this, but damn would it be more amazing if it came directly from a dev as a road map post and not something created by the marketing department lol.

Aztlan

Thank you for the update, @Checkmath. That's just what I was hoping for.