The Elder Scrolls Online

What's going on with the Class Rep Program?

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  • Darkenarlol
    Darkenarlol
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    newcomers voices equal to hardened vets?

    1st person flower gatherers' offended feelings?

    where is this world falling to? :D


    game mechanics should be discussed with someone

    who is competent in endgame PvP/PvE and knows

    what is he talking about and not with some 1st person

    overland quests mouse clickers.


    what usefull game mechanics feedback you can get from

    someone who rarely/never participates in activities

    where this mechanics are used/essential?


  • J2JMC
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    Checkmath wrote: »

    ... As example, if templars would be underperforming regarding dps and the devs have this clear image of the templar being a master of aoe and splash damage, then they can buff certain aoe abilities of the class to be exceptions compared to the standards. Those exceptios then would define the class concept. If nightblade is meant to be a single target class, then naturally it would make sense to give surprise attack a a higher tooltip than other single target skills and so on.

    .

    If this is the route the devs actually go, I'd be interested to see it. But I haven't seen anything suggesting this is how they'll approach the game once their done with their standardizations. Additionally, speaking from a nightblade's perspective, I find it hard to believe that someone who actively played a stamina and magicka nightblade thought some of those Elsewyr changes fit the nightblade. And I don't mean from a buff/nerf perspective. I mean strictly from an identity perspective. Which makes me think ZOS doesn't really listen to their class reps. Which brings us back to the title of the thread.
    Edited by J2JMC on June 25, 2019 11:00PM
    Knee Jerk, L2P, Obtuse, Casual, Entitled, All The Best, unnecessary mention of CoD

    Battle leveling for pve content defeats the idea of progression. Remove CP

    "Apparently the players are more informed than we are"-Richard Lambert

  • ecru
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    One of the main issues with the class rep program was that the discord servers were a mess to begin with. Whoever set them up did a terrible job when they created the up to 40-50+ channels in each particular server. This basically ruined any chance for good discussion by sectioning off players into very very niche channels where it was difficult to discuss anything or provide feedback because there was no discussion in the 30 dead channels in every discord.

    I don't care how many class reps you have, class discussion being spread across hundreds of discord channels will never, ever lead to any good discussion or feedback. If I was a class rep, I would have pushed to have the majority of those channels deleted and the discussion moved into a few channels that were easy to read and keep track of.

    A mag pve, mag pvp, stam pvp, stam pve, healing, and a tanking channel should have been it for every class, along with possibly channels for the three skill lines or one single channel for skills and one for passives (although this might be too much), would have been more than enough for people to provide feedback and for class reps to read and participate in discussion for their respective classes.

    The new class discussion discord is how it should have been done to begin with. I'm glad the old one were closed.
    Edited by ecru on June 25, 2019 11:16PM
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    ecru wrote: »
    One of the main issues with the class rep program was that the discord servers were a mess to begin with. Whoever set them up did a terrible job when they created the up to 40-50+ channels in each particular server. This basically ruined any chance for good discussion by sectioning off players into very very niche channels where it was difficult to discuss anything or provide feedback because there was no discussion in the 30 dead channels in every discord.

    I don't care how many class reps you have, class discussion being spread across hundreds of discord channels will never, ever lead to any good discussion or feedback. If I was a class rep, I would have pushed to have the majority of those channels deleted and the discussion moved into a few channels that were easy to read and keep track of.

    A mag pve, mag pvp, stam pvp, stam pve, healing, and a tanking channel should have been it for every class, along with possibly channels for the three skill lines or one single channel for skills and one for passives (although this might be too much), would have been more than enough for people to provide feedback and for class reps to read and participate in discussion for their respective classes.

    The new class discussion discord is how it should have been done to begin with. I'm glad the old one were closed.

    If at some point the reps want to reopen discord as information resource, we will do it in the new class discussion discord.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Minno wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    J2JMC wrote: »
    Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

    Yes there is a point. As you stated, currently the devs try to standardize and homogenize skills and skilllines a bit to establish some kind of standard rules like cone aoes deal 80% of a single targets damage, meanwhile a round aoe like 60% and so on.

    As soon as those standards are accomplished, they can even better look at the classes and their current performance. As example, if templars would be underperforming regarding dps and the devs have this clear image of the templar being a master of aoe and splash damage, then they can buff certain aoe abilities of the class to be exceptions compared to the standards. Those exceptios then would define the class concept. If nightblade is meant to be a single target class, then naturally it would make sense to give surprise attack a a higher tooltip than other single target skills and so on.

    We currently already see some parts of this image, an example would be the warden, which has with falcon swiftness the longest major expedition buff (at least as usable skill in fights). Therefore this skill is a rulebreaker compared to other sources of major expadition, which all last only 4 seconds.

    In conclusion, yes they currently standardize skills and skilllines, but can later on based on those standards start creating uniqueness for the classes by giving them rulebreakers.

    And exactly at this point the class reps again get important for doing their job. Also is absolutely not the case, that we are doing nothing right now while the standardisation is happening. Even though it is an audit, many skills have seen a total rework in function, which creates the need of feedback. Additionally we can right now point out, when we see some standardisation changes, if a specific change makes sense to be standardisized or will need adjustements later on to bring classes in line with others or will need adjustement to fit in as future rulebreaker.

    im fine with this, but damn would it be more amazing if it came directly from a dev as a road map post and not something created by the marketing department lol.
    I've for a very long time wanted (and pestered) ZOS for dev blogs. I don't understand the excuse that the teams are always too busy to write a blog. Just factor some time into their schedule for that.

    I find it hard to believe that Finn and Wheeler can't be given an hour a day to work on a weekly/monthly dev blog informing everyone what's happening in their department and what to expect over the coming weeks.

    Sadly the only news updates we get are articles to build hype for updates, and not about updates to the game mechanically.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
    The Great Forums Banning #NeverForget
  • Squidgaurd
    Squidgaurd
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    Ive tried dueling in first person. Magplars make it hard to see what is going on just so much bright light.
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    @Checkmath
    Thank you for informing us, buddy!
    :3
    I have an issue left open, though... The NDA.
    I understand that this allows the reps to get more information and involvement, which is good. But at the same time, the other players, like, the vast majority, STILL gets the done deal with PTS.
    This has been a problem since... forever. Four weeks of PTS are not enough to collectively discuss, test and adjust the game. Especially when not every single week is actually used for mechanic tuning. In the end, the original PTS is pretty close to the final patch.
    This is what frustrates sooo many. And I think it doesn't have to be this way. Scraps of the upcoming changes could be made public to start at least the discussion train. The community is vast. Maybe someone has an idea that neither the reps nor ZOS had, which is actually not improbable.
    The NDA prevents that. And I thought the program began as you guys being our "front troops", doing the first hard work and then communicating with us to get a think factory going while the PTS is still being prepared. So when it's ready, we can spend more precious time on actual testing and adjusting.To be efficient. But as it is now, you're basically running the show. YOUR role in the process increased, ours diminished. Thanks to the NDA. And that is inefficient and a waste of time, talent and just brainpower, so to say. Also alienates the community - even to the reps!
    So, mayyybe not everything has to be under NDA, perhaps? Can you, like, ask ZOS to publish... concepts? Not the whole changes in detail, but the rough idea, so the community can interact and contribute, instead of being idle until it's almost too late.

    Note that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form. I trust the reps as persons. Not so much the program, but definitely the reps themselves. And I appreciate the work you put in.
    <3
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @Checkmath
    Thank you for informing us, buddy!
    :3
    I have an issue left open, though... The NDA.
    I understand that this allows the reps to get more information and involvement, which is good. But at the same time, the other players, like, the vast majority, STILL gets the done deal with PTS.
    This has been a problem since... forever. Four weeks of PTS are not enough to collectively discuss, test and adjust the game. Especially when not every single week is actually used for mechanic tuning. In the end, the original PTS is pretty close to the final patch.
    This is what frustrates sooo many. And I think it doesn't have to be this way. Scraps of the upcoming changes could be made public to start at least the discussion train. The community is vast. Maybe someone has an idea that neither the reps nor ZOS had, which is actually not improbable.
    The NDA prevents that. And I thought the program began as you guys being our "front troops", doing the first hard work and then communicating with us to get a think factory going while the PTS is still being prepared. So when it's ready, we can spend more precious time on actual testing and adjusting.To be efficient. But as it is now, you're basically running the show. YOUR role in the process increased, ours diminished. Thanks to the NDA. And that is inefficient and a waste of time, talent and just brainpower, so to say. Also alienates the community - even to the reps!
    So, mayyybe not everything has to be under NDA, perhaps? Can you, like, ask ZOS to publish... concepts? Not the whole changes in detail, but the rough idea, so the community can interact and contribute, instead of being idle until it's almost too late.

    Note that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form. I trust the reps as persons. Not so much the program, but definitely the reps themselves. And I appreciate the work you put in.
    <3

    I surely can ask about that, if the devs could release parts of the notes, concepts or kind of general plans. But that is only their decision and if they decide not to share anything, then we still have the same problem.
  • Haquor
    Haquor
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    SirAndy wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    youll never meet a more passionate rep than checkmath
    Who also dismissed a sizable portion of the ESO player base by stating that 1st person view is for role playing.
    I for one am glad that someone like that has no voice anymore as a "Combat representative".
    dry.gif
    im pretty sure 99% of ESO is played 3rd person. Its the only ES game where 3rd person is actually better than 1st view.

    I'm pretty sure you are 98% wrong ...
    bye1.gif

    We found the guy that plays in 3rd person.
  • Altyrann
    Altyrann
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    Darkenarlol wrote: »
    newcomers voices equal to hardened vets?

    1st person flower gatherers' offended feelings?

    where is this world falling to? :D


    game mechanics should be discussed with someone

    who is competent in endgame PvP/PvE and knows

    what is he talking about and not with some 1st person

    overland quests mouse clickers.


    what usefull game mechanics feedback you can get from

    someone who rarely/never participates in activities

    where this mechanics are used/essential?


    Was this meant to be a haiku?
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
    noted.
    in Translation:
    other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

    Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

    it's not fair.
    we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
    our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

    So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta and did all the content regarding class balance?

    Just a question, its his opinion and that is his right to think so.

    100% absolutely this is the problem with the system. I don't know you @checkmath I'm sure you are a fine peraon but your opinion means exactly the same as literally every other person in this game.

    Everyone paid the same money to play you are not special because you completed more of the game.

    In reality of you are clearing hard mode trials (myself included) you are in the abject minority and your opinion should be weighed less than a person who does whatever the masses do.

    Representatives. The word means represent which means you listen to thosecwho you represent and do whats best for them, not what's best for you or some version of the game that fits you.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    yodased wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
    noted.
    in Translation:
    other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

    Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

    it's not fair.
    we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
    our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

    So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta and did all the content regarding class balance?

    Just a question, its his opinion and that is his right to think so.

    100% absolutely this is the problem with the system. I don't know you @checkmath I'm sure you are a fine peraon but your opinion means exactly the same as literally every other person in this game.

    Everyone paid the same money to play you are not special because you completed more of the game.

    In reality of you are clearing hard mode trials (myself included) you are in the abject minority and your opinion should be weighed less than a person who does whatever the masses do.

    Representatives. The word means represent which means you listen to thosecwho you represent and do whats best for them, not what's best for you or some version of the game that fits you.

    thats exactly the point.
    in addition he just openly said he is going to tell the devs about one persons desires while ignoring others of us as unimportant and he openly publicly disagrees therefore he wont bring that to the developers.
    which is what he is SUPPOSE to do as a representative of the eso community!

    here below ill copy paste what he said showing that he WILL tell the devs about 1 mans request but others he just ignores!
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @Checkmath
    Thank you for informing us, buddy!
    :3
    I have an issue left open, though... The NDA.
    I understand that this allows the reps to get more information and involvement, which is good. But at the same time, the other players, like, the vast majority, STILL gets the done deal with PTS.
    This has been a problem since... forever. Four weeks of PTS are not enough to collectively discuss, test and adjust the game. Especially when not every single week is actually used for mechanic tuning. In the end, the original PTS is pretty close to the final patch.
    This is what frustrates sooo many. And I think it doesn't have to be this way. Scraps of the upcoming changes could be made public to start at least the discussion train. The community is vast. Maybe someone has an idea that neither the reps nor ZOS had, which is actually not improbable.
    The NDA prevents that. And I thought the program began as you guys being our "front troops", doing the first hard work and then communicating with us to get a think factory going while the PTS is still being prepared. So when it's ready, we can spend more precious time on actual testing and adjusting.To be efficient. But as it is now, you're basically running the show. YOUR role in the process increased, ours diminished. Thanks to the NDA. And that is inefficient and a waste of time, talent and just brainpower, so to say. Also alienates the community - even to the reps!
    So, mayyybe not everything has to be under NDA, perhaps? Can you, like, ask ZOS to publish... concepts? Not the whole changes in detail, but the rough idea, so the community can interact and contribute, instead of being idle until it's almost too late.

    Note that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form. I trust the reps as persons. Not so much the program, but definitely the reps themselves. And I appreciate the work you put in.
    <3

    I surely can ask about that, if the devs could release parts of the notes, concepts or kind of general plans. But that is only their decision and if they decide not to share anything, then we still have the same problem.

    Edited by Gilvoth on June 26, 2019 1:48PM
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
    noted.
    in Translation:
    other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

    Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

    it's not fair.
    we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
    our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

    So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta and did all the content regarding class balance?

    Edited by Gilvoth on June 26, 2019 1:43PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Altyrann wrote: »
    Darkenarlol wrote: »
    newcomers voices equal to hardened vets?

    1st person flower gatherers' offended feelings?

    where is this world falling to? :D


    game mechanics should be discussed with someone

    who is competent in endgame PvP/PvE and knows

    what is he talking about and not with some 1st person

    overland quests mouse clickers.


    what usefull game mechanics feedback you can get from

    someone who rarely/never participates in activities

    where this mechanics are used/essential?


    Was this meant to be a haiku?

    Haiku would be:

    Newbs play 1st person.
    Experienced folks play 3rd.
    Devs balance end-game.

    Even that is lacking the nature reference, so...

    Cherry blossoms fall
    Like sad tears of 1st person
    Players neglected.
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    completely BIASED!
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Turelus wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    J2JMC wrote: »
    Returning player, so excuse me if I am missing something, but is there even a point to class reps when it seems like ZOS is actively homogenizing the classes without a care for class identity? At some point you just become an animation rep, not a class rep.

    Yes there is a point. As you stated, currently the devs try to standardize and homogenize skills and skilllines a bit to establish some kind of standard rules like cone aoes deal 80% of a single targets damage, meanwhile a round aoe like 60% and so on.

    As soon as those standards are accomplished, they can even better look at the classes and their current performance. As example, if templars would be underperforming regarding dps and the devs have this clear image of the templar being a master of aoe and splash damage, then they can buff certain aoe abilities of the class to be exceptions compared to the standards. Those exceptios then would define the class concept. If nightblade is meant to be a single target class, then naturally it would make sense to give surprise attack a a higher tooltip than other single target skills and so on.

    We currently already see some parts of this image, an example would be the warden, which has with falcon swiftness the longest major expedition buff (at least as usable skill in fights). Therefore this skill is a rulebreaker compared to other sources of major expadition, which all last only 4 seconds.

    In conclusion, yes they currently standardize skills and skilllines, but can later on based on those standards start creating uniqueness for the classes by giving them rulebreakers.

    And exactly at this point the class reps again get important for doing their job. Also is absolutely not the case, that we are doing nothing right now while the standardisation is happening. Even though it is an audit, many skills have seen a total rework in function, which creates the need of feedback. Additionally we can right now point out, when we see some standardisation changes, if a specific change makes sense to be standardisized or will need adjustements later on to bring classes in line with others or will need adjustement to fit in as future rulebreaker.

    im fine with this, but damn would it be more amazing if it came directly from a dev as a road map post and not something created by the marketing department lol.
    I've for a very long time wanted (and pestered) ZOS for dev blogs. I don't understand the excuse that the teams are always too busy to write a blog. Just factor some time into their schedule for that.

    I find it hard to believe that Finn and Wheeler can't be given an hour a day to work on a weekly/monthly dev blog informing everyone what's happening in their department and what to expect over the coming weeks.

    Sadly the only news updates we get are articles to build hype for updates, and not about updates to the game mechanically.

    Wrobel actually has a mini blog setup that talks about some of the systems he created and the logic behind the warden's animations. Not indepth items, but cool none the less.

    I wish the devs posted something like this for the other classes. Would help us to focus feedback and concerns witht he upcoming changes.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @Checkmath
    Thank you for informing us, buddy!
    :3
    I have an issue left open, though... The NDA.
    I understand that this allows the reps to get more information and involvement, which is good. But at the same time, the other players, like, the vast majority, STILL gets the done deal with PTS.
    This has been a problem since... forever. Four weeks of PTS are not enough to collectively discuss, test and adjust the game. Especially when not every single week is actually used for mechanic tuning. In the end, the original PTS is pretty close to the final patch.
    This is what frustrates sooo many. And I think it doesn't have to be this way. Scraps of the upcoming changes could be made public to start at least the discussion train. The community is vast. Maybe someone has an idea that neither the reps nor ZOS had, which is actually not improbable.
    The NDA prevents that. And I thought the program began as you guys being our "front troops", doing the first hard work and then communicating with us to get a think factory going while the PTS is still being prepared. So when it's ready, we can spend more precious time on actual testing and adjusting.To be efficient. But as it is now, you're basically running the show. YOUR role in the process increased, ours diminished. Thanks to the NDA. And that is inefficient and a waste of time, talent and just brainpower, so to say. Also alienates the community - even to the reps!
    So, mayyybe not everything has to be under NDA, perhaps? Can you, like, ask ZOS to publish... concepts? Not the whole changes in detail, but the rough idea, so the community can interact and contribute, instead of being idle until it's almost too late.

    Note that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form. I trust the reps as persons. Not so much the program, but definitely the reps themselves. And I appreciate the work you put in.
    <3

    I surely can ask about that, if the devs could release parts of the notes, concepts or kind of general plans. But that is only their decision and if they decide not to share anything, then we still have the same problem.

    Thank you!
    :3
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    @Gilvoth @yodased

    Where did I say, that I do stuff which is best for me and not for others? Somebody nicely said, that a representative should represent the people. I can only represent the people, who talk to me and its everyones own responsability to go up to the reps, when you want to bring something up. Same as if it would be your responsability to go up to the devs, if the reps would not be there.

    Nice quote you got there, which is somehow totally unrelated tough, since it has nothing to do with actual feedback for the classes, rather an idea how the devs can communicate better. I do not profit from that idea, but you would. So why would you blame me for bringing something up to the devs, which favors you? Or do you not want to get more informations about the coming patch? Maybe you want to bring up feedback about that too for the devs in any way you like?
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    Gilvoth wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    oh ok, so we will continue with only a few speaking for the entire eso community, as if their words and desires are all that exist. while the community hates and despises the effects and changes ingame, that the few elite players decide for us.
    noted.
    in Translation:
    other than a few of that group left and are no longer class representatives, nothing changed.

    Yep you got it almost. But the free seats in that exclusive councill will soon be reserved again.

    it's not fair.
    we need a democracy, not a totalitarianism group.
    our views, the communities views and desires are restricted by class representatives opposition speaking for us in ways we do not agree with!

    So you think somebody, who started playing ESO yesterday, should have the same voice as somebody, who plays since beta and did all the content regarding class balance?

    Just a question, its his opinion and that is his right to think so.

    100% absolutely this is the problem with the system. I don't know you @checkmath I'm sure you are a fine peraon but your opinion means exactly the same as literally every other person in this game.

    Everyone paid the same money to play you are not special because you completed more of the game.

    In reality of you are clearing hard mode trials (myself included) you are in the abject minority and your opinion should be weighed less than a person who does whatever the masses do.

    Representatives. The word means represent which means you listen to thosecwho you represent and do whats best for them, not what's best for you or some version of the game that fits you.

    thats exactly the point.
    in addition he just openly said he is going to tell the devs about one persons desires while ignoring others of us as unimportant and he openly publicly disagrees therefore he wont bring that to the developers.
    which is what he is SUPPOSE to do as a representative of the eso community!

    here below ill copy paste what he said showing that he WILL tell the devs about 1 mans request but others he just ignores!
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @Checkmath
    Thank you for informing us, buddy!
    :3
    I have an issue left open, though... The NDA.
    I understand that this allows the reps to get more information and involvement, which is good. But at the same time, the other players, like, the vast majority, STILL gets the done deal with PTS.
    This has been a problem since... forever. Four weeks of PTS are not enough to collectively discuss, test and adjust the game. Especially when not every single week is actually used for mechanic tuning. In the end, the original PTS is pretty close to the final patch.
    This is what frustrates sooo many. And I think it doesn't have to be this way. Scraps of the upcoming changes could be made public to start at least the discussion train. The community is vast. Maybe someone has an idea that neither the reps nor ZOS had, which is actually not improbable.
    The NDA prevents that. And I thought the program began as you guys being our "front troops", doing the first hard work and then communicating with us to get a think factory going while the PTS is still being prepared. So when it's ready, we can spend more precious time on actual testing and adjusting.To be efficient. But as it is now, you're basically running the show. YOUR role in the process increased, ours diminished. Thanks to the NDA. And that is inefficient and a waste of time, talent and just brainpower, so to say. Also alienates the community - even to the reps!
    So, mayyybe not everything has to be under NDA, perhaps? Can you, like, ask ZOS to publish... concepts? Not the whole changes in detail, but the rough idea, so the community can interact and contribute, instead of being idle until it's almost too late.

    Note that I mean no disrespect in any way, shape or form. I trust the reps as persons. Not so much the program, but definitely the reps themselves. And I appreciate the work you put in.
    <3

    I surely can ask about that, if the devs could release parts of the notes, concepts or kind of general plans. But that is only their decision and if they decide not to share anything, then we still have the same problem.

    Look, I asked him if he could find a way to include the whole community a bit more in the designing process, which is literally what you're asking for. And he agreed. This means he's also kind of acknowledging your wishes. I wasn't asking for a simple sorc buff, if that's what you're thinking.
  • Feanor
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    @Lord-Otto

    If you just had asked for a buff to Snipe or to sneak speed instead...
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • yodased
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    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Checkmath
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    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    But even tough you are an inhabitant of some country somewhere, where you pay taxes and bills and so on, still your word in politics matters in the end much less than the countries executive.
    Edited by Checkmath on June 26, 2019 5:52PM
  • yodased
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    But even tough you are an inhabitant of some country somewhere, where you pay taxes and bills and so on, still your word in politics matters in the end much less than the countries executive.

    Sure, but you are not that executive and if you are talking about a representative government then my voice matters exactly the same as every single other persons who can vote.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • GrumpyDuckling
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    The class rep program allows the loudest community members and streamers to have a better chance to get ZOS' ears, but the program most definitely does not represent all of ZOS' supposed "13.5 million players."

    Too much time is wasted on balance nonsense, with every rep bringing their own prejudices to the table along with echoing the latest nerf/buff cries from the forum. I wish the class rep program was used exclusively to push for quality of life stuff that makes the game better for everyone.
  • JumpmanLane
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    But even tough you are an inhabitant of some country somewhere, where you pay taxes and bills and so on, still your word in politics matters in the end much less than the countries executive.

    What executive? It’s government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people where I’m from. And anybody who thinks otherwise ends up in Federal prison or sniffing around for a pardon.
  • VaranisArano
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    JumpmanLane wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    But even tough you are an inhabitant of some country somewhere, where you pay taxes and bills and so on, still your word in politics matters in the end much less than the countries executive.

    What executive? It’s government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people where I’m from. And anybody who thinks otherwise ends up in Federal prison or sniffing around for a pardon.

    Pure democracy, huh?
  • VaranisArano
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    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    Er...we're gonna have to disagree on that.

    I mean, on one level, sure. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :)

    But on the other hand, when I look at the Devs taking player opinions into consideration, I want it to be the opinions that are actually based on facts and a wide experience in the game. I want the devs to listen to the opinions that actually make logical sense. I want the Devs to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff - the intelligent opinions from the BS. I want the Devs to be able to tell the difference when the community calls for nerfs for something that is actually overpowered vs just players whining. And so on.

    So...no, I do not value every players' opinion equally. I value expertise and experience far above any amount of "doesn't make logical sense" opinions, and I hope the Devs do too.

    Inexperience means that players can have informed opinions on SOME topics. Frankly, the player who started yesterday is an expert on one thing: how to be a brand new player in ESO. If the topic is "Brand New Player Experience" then yeah, I'll listen to their opinion. And that's about it, until they get some actual experience playing ESO. That's not to be disrespectful to them, as we were all that new player once, just a blunt statement that they don't know anything more about ESO than the New Player Experience until they get more experience in the game.
  • SirAndy
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    Darkenarlol wrote: »
    newcomers voices equal to hardened vets?
    1st person flower gatherers' offended feelings?
    where is this world falling to? :D
    game mechanics should be discussed with someone
    who is competent in endgame PvP/PvE and knows
    what is he talking about and not with some 1st person
    overland quests mouse clickers.
    what usefull game mechanics feedback you can get from
    someone who rarely/never participates in activities
    where this mechanics are used/essential?

    Like i said, we've been through this before. Players that are good at 1% of the game somehow equating that to having the right to make game changing suggestions on behalf of all the player base.

    I remember those self proclaimed "elite" players during beta that made a lot of noise here on the forums about how ESO would be dead on launch if ZOS didn't meet their demands. All of them stopped playing a long time ago yet the game is still here.

    If you want to have an influence on some of the fundamental parts of this game (that will affect *everyone*) you need to have a broad horizon. This isn't that hard a concept to grasp.
    shades.gif

  • yodased
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    VaranisArano wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    Er...we're gonna have to disagree on that.

    I mean, on one level, sure. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :)

    But on the other hand, when I look at the Devs taking player opinions into consideration, I want it to be the opinions that are actually based on facts and a wide experience in the game. I want the devs to listen to the opinions that actually make logical sense. I want the Devs to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff - the intelligent opinions from the BS. I want the Devs to be able to tell the difference when the community calls for nerfs for something that is actually overpowered vs just players whining. And so on.

    So...no, I do not value every players' opinion equally. I value expertise and experience far above any amount of "doesn't make logical sense" opinions, and I hope the Devs do too.

    Inexperience means that players can have informed opinions on SOME topics. Frankly, the player who started yesterday is an expert on one thing: how to be a brand new player in ESO. If the topic is "Brand New Player Experience" then yeah, I'll listen to their opinion. And that's about it, until they get some actual experience playing ESO. That's not to be disrespectful to them, as we were all that new player once, just a blunt statement that they don't know anything more about ESO than the New Player Experience until they get more experience in the game.

    Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter. Their opinion is 100% equal to yours. Just because you have played the game does not matter, they paid to enter the conversation just like you and I did.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • VaranisArano
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    yodased wrote: »
    VaranisArano wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    I wasn't teying to insuinuate that you specifically did anything untoward @checkmath the idea though is flawed that a person's opinion who started yesterday is not worth the same as mine who has been here since 2013 or yours a class rep.

    Every players opinion is equally important, even if they don't make logical sense they paid to be here same as us.

    Er...we're gonna have to disagree on that.

    I mean, on one level, sure. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. :)

    But on the other hand, when I look at the Devs taking player opinions into consideration, I want it to be the opinions that are actually based on facts and a wide experience in the game. I want the devs to listen to the opinions that actually make logical sense. I want the Devs to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff - the intelligent opinions from the BS. I want the Devs to be able to tell the difference when the community calls for nerfs for something that is actually overpowered vs just players whining. And so on.

    So...no, I do not value every players' opinion equally. I value expertise and experience far above any amount of "doesn't make logical sense" opinions, and I hope the Devs do too.

    Inexperience means that players can have informed opinions on SOME topics. Frankly, the player who started yesterday is an expert on one thing: how to be a brand new player in ESO. If the topic is "Brand New Player Experience" then yeah, I'll listen to their opinion. And that's about it, until they get some actual experience playing ESO. That's not to be disrespectful to them, as we were all that new player once, just a blunt statement that they don't know anything more about ESO than the New Player Experience until they get more experience in the game.

    Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter. Their opinion is 100% equal to yours. Just because you have played the game does not matter, they paid to enter the conversation just like you and I did.

    Okay, sure. They paid to enter the conversation.

    That doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. (Sort of like the occasional "the forums should be restricted to ESO+ members" ideas, paying to enter any conversation does not guarantee that the person has anything worthwhile to contribute.)

    New players know about the game only from the inherently limited perspective of a new player. If we're not talking about the New Player Experience, they realistically don't have much to add until they become more experienced, except to offer their opinion on the New Player Experience.

    And the people who don't bother to make logical sense will hopefully find that their "contributions" are ignored. They may have paid to enter the conversation by buying the game, but that doesnt entitle them to a bunch of attentive listeners to their nonsense.


    To be honest, I'm mostly confused and annoyed by your statement that everyone's opinion is equal...even when one opinion makes no sense. Like, how does that even work? How on earth is an opinion that makes no sense remotely worthy of serious consideration by the Devs or the class reps? Please, explain that, because I don't understand that, at all.
    Edited by VaranisArano on June 27, 2019 1:21AM
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