The tanky meta

EtTuBrutus

I have more dmg than i ever have with more resistance. 30k resistance in light armor with 3.6k spell dmg and 40k magicka.

No one is tanky though unless they block or have several powerful forms of healing. Even at 30k resistance and minor protection ive had 13k assassins will/ merc resolve procs hit me.

Toc de Malsvi

Marcus684 wrote: »

I’ve seen it over and over again. A so-called “tanky” build running around a rock being chased by a handful of players, and all I have to do is hit them with one reverb and they drop in 2 seconds. I think there are just so many pvpers that have zero clue how to put together a decent build, and this makes a lot of players with more than 15k mitigations look tanky.

Then again, I’ve also seen the tanky bleed build that can endlessly spam vigor/blood craze and still hurt you bad with leap/DB, so they exist, but I don’t think they’re as common as people claim. There are just so many people that can’t build for decent damage/pen/defiling.

I don't think its all about bad builds for damage. I think the inability to kill certain players has a lot more to do with server performance, connection speed, and individual skill performance. There are times when I cannot get my instant cast skills to even cast on guys who are tree humping.

They come out from running and I can blow them up. But quite often the game gets stuck trying to decide if I can cast something.

Toc de Malsvi

Players often erroneously think that their input was somehow exceptional. When in fact their input was only the straw that broke the proverbial camels back.

evoniee

adjust 7legion, fury, and protective trait and it is gone lmao

Waffennacht

Defile doesn't affect Shields however the player is still major defiled and will have their healing reduced

RedGirl41

Everyone in cyrodiil is a tank. Nobody wants to die they just want to spam rapid and run around as much combat as possible to get their free 6k ap. For some reason they think avoiding all combat makes their 5 star rank revelvant. Most tanks can dps too which is awesome .... they all want to be tanks so they can chase a 6 man group completely across the map and spam ulti

CatchMeTrolling

Today I ran into a group of DC tanks at brindle , the minimum health was 30k and multiple had 40-50k. I actually think @Toc de Malsvi was there.

It’s not just tank and spank builds, those are mostly used by small scalers. It’s about everyone else going really tanky or full tank and they group up with it.

Dunning_Kruger

If you die in cyro; you may not escape the load screen. Gotta ratchet up that HP.

ecru

Minno wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

The tank meta is bad and the flexibility of jewelry crafting has allowed people to make light / medium extremely tanky without sacrificing much in regards to raw stats. See : 60k max mag on my magblade with very high resistances.

https://imgur.com/gallery/egYZ1pd

and that isnt even high. thats less than 10% after major pen/maul/CP, which is just as easy to stack.

The real culprit here is the 60K mag pool and double stacked shields in addition to the resist and likely 3300 crit resist with 50% block on demand.

They need to adjust how shields/block change the mitigation values. PVE needs to take one for the team here.

That’d be too drastic I think.

Someone mentioned in another thread that defile doesn’t effect shields, is that correct?

If so change it so defile effects shields - problem solved.

There are lots of mechanics that are only applicable in pvp that they could play with to correct any imbalance like crit resists and defile. Devs just need to tweak the values to correct any imbalance, and if it isn’t enough add a new stat like block penetration.

Defile doesn't effect shields and status effects are not applied to anyone with a shield if the shield absorbs the damage that would cause the status effect. For example, if the disease damage from your enchant is absorbed entirely by a shield, it cannot apply major defile. Shields are much better than heals for this reason.

Sorcs get to ignore a lot of the minor vulnerability or major defile status effects that everyone else has to deal with.

Jeez, I didn’t know that. No freaken wonder everyone plays Wardens and Sorcs, DKs used to be popular too but now you don’t see as many despite getting a big damage buff.

With all the cc flying around pvp will always be about two things: those that can negate cc with abilities and those who can’t. Everything else is almost irrelevant.

someone needs to test again because in murkmire they changed to allow the dmg of the enchants to hit the shield. If the enchant hits, it should allow the status effect to rip through.

Otherwise its kinda like running the specific resistance that is immune to that status effect. I think its great because it adds flavour to shields. What isn't great, is that its subtractive after crit/percentage/armor mitigation and certain shields can reach 10k for under 2500 cost.

But this is one aspect of the defensive nature of the game that is overperforming. If I had to give priority, id say block needs to come first, then shields, then as a super low priority, look into all resist bonuses to adjust them so its a little harder to reach cap.

I use shock and disease enchants w/charged to give me good uptime on major defile/minor vuln on my targets and these status effects almost never show up on magsorcs in Combat Metrics when compared to anyone else. It's especially apparent in duels.

HalvarIronfist

LordTareq wrote: »

Anyone else seeing an exponential increase in battlegrounds of these really tanky builds? Lately it seems like every other player I run into is just this indestructible damage sponge no matter the class. In response I've adapted my build to do more and more damage, but now I've reached a point where my survivability is crap, my damage vs 'normal' players is insane, and sustain is decent. However the tankier target's I still just can't really harm despite having invested significantly in armor penetration (maul, sharpened bow, spriggans, Onslaught ultimate that ignores resistance).

In my experience, I don't run into very good "tanky" damage builds, but as in a trolly tank build, sure. I've had, and seen many unkillables. There's plenty of youtube footage of such builds as well.

I just use the trolly ones to anger 'tryhard' players. I've gotten many a hate message when someone who can kill 95% of their opponents runs into someone they can barely scratch/can't finish off runs into my troll builds.


In my experience fighting them, most of them do pitiful damage, and may more than likely just attempt to CC/snare you just to be a nuisance. OR they just want to watch you try killing them with a good laugh.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

Minno wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

The tank meta is bad and the flexibility of jewelry crafting has allowed people to make light / medium extremely tanky without sacrificing much in regards to raw stats. See : 60k max mag on my magblade with very high resistances.

https://imgur.com/gallery/egYZ1pd

and that isnt even high. thats less than 10% after major pen/maul/CP, which is just as easy to stack.

The real culprit here is the 60K mag pool and double stacked shields in addition to the resist and likely 3300 crit resist with 50% block on demand.

They need to adjust how shields/block change the mitigation values. PVE needs to take one for the team here.

Yeah I run same setup on sorc with bloodspawn over 1p1p and with bs proc I bet like 33k resistances with massive shields. 100% agree with a shield and block change. Sword and board seems rampant this meta and needs addressed.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

usmguy1234 wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

As someone else already said Why is it not seen as a problem that you can build full damage spec and be insta gibbed by tanky players whom when you try to burst them dont even break a sweat .... how is this balance?

Totally agree. However, I have watched these same builds run around a tree or popping shields and blink with 5-6 good players trying to kill them for 15 - 20 minutes. I end the fight with a 3 hit combo from my glass cannon and then get hate mail from the guy I killed saying im ruining pvp. I honestly dont think a tanky build is a problem. I think too many people dont understand or learn how to play a survivable glass cannon type so there are less out there. If there were more, the meta wouldn't work as well and the world would be more balanced.

I think dude is right. It's a what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. People use to not build super tanky until the proc meta came with one tamriel. If you are a die hard pvp player, getting one shot by someone stacking camo hunter, viper/veli, tremor snb wombo combo, empowered crystal frag, heavy attack one shot builds, snipe spammers a couple dozen times, you start to build around the burst of glass cannon types or you become the glass cannon. It's a natural cycle. As long as you have one the other will exist.

True. I must say this most recent patch after being a week in feels good. Damage is high while everyone is also tanky. It makes the fights a tad more frustrating when you’re outnumbered though and has put a large dampen on vX scenarios which is unfortunate. That’s my one gripe with the current tanky meta.

jadarock

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

There are times when I cannot get my instant cast skills to even cast on guys who are tree humping.

They come out from running and I can blow them up. But quite often the game gets stuck trying to decide if I can cast something.

This so very much...
If I had a nickel for everytime I've had someone at execute with 100 health left and my skills wouldn't fire to finish them just to have them turn and nuke me I could buy zeni.... so frustrating. Its their servers and my internet not playing nice I'm guessing since I have no issues with other games idk.
Smashed an xbox s and almost quit this game a million times over it....😬

Toc de Malsvi

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Today I ran into a group of DC tanks at brindle , the minimum health was 30k and multiple had 40-50k. I actually think @Toc de Malsvi was there.

It’s not just tank and spank builds, those are mostly used by small scalers. It’s about everyone else going really tanky or full tank and they group up with it.

I was at brindle yesterday
several times so its entirely possible. And yes its not just the tanky ball groups anymore. Half the zergs are all 30k+ health S&B bots that just stack in siege and spam heals.

usmguy1234

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

As someone else already said Why is it not seen as a problem that you can build full damage spec and be insta gibbed by tanky players whom when you try to burst them dont even break a sweat .... how is this balance?

Totally agree. However, I have watched these same builds run around a tree or popping shields and blink with 5-6 good players trying to kill them for 15 - 20 minutes. I end the fight with a 3 hit combo from my glass cannon and then get hate mail from the guy I killed saying im ruining pvp. I honestly dont think a tanky build is a problem. I think too many people dont understand or learn how to play a survivable glass cannon type so there are less out there. If there were more, the meta wouldn't work as well and the world would be more balanced.

I think dude is right. It's a what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. People use to not build super tanky until the proc meta came with one tamriel. If you are a die hard pvp player, getting one shot by someone stacking camo hunter, viper/veli, tremor snb wombo combo, empowered crystal frag, heavy attack one shot builds, snipe spammers a couple dozen times, you start to build around the burst of glass cannon types or you become the glass cannon. It's a natural cycle. As long as you have one the other will exist.

True. I must say this most recent patch after being a week in feels good. Damage is high while everyone is also tanky. It makes the fights a tad more frustrating when you’re outnumbered though and has put a large dampen on vX scenarios which is unfortunate. That’s my one gripe with the current tanky meta.

AD definitely has some tough coordinated groups though and I don't even think zos can handicap coordination enough to make it not viable. Heck even pugs that mesh well/are experienced pvpers can take on groups much larger than them. The biggest threat imo is game performance issues like not being able to bar swap, abilities not firing, stun lock, etc. which only compounds the issues when facing opponents with increased survivability.

Toc de Malsvi

usmguy1234 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

As someone else already said Why is it not seen as a problem that you can build full damage spec and be insta gibbed by tanky players whom when you try to burst them dont even break a sweat .... how is this balance?

Totally agree. However, I have watched these same builds run around a tree or popping shields and blink with 5-6 good players trying to kill them for 15 - 20 minutes. I end the fight with a 3 hit combo from my glass cannon and then get hate mail from the guy I killed saying im ruining pvp. I honestly dont think a tanky build is a problem. I think too many people dont understand or learn how to play a survivable glass cannon type so there are less out there. If there were more, the meta wouldn't work as well and the world would be more balanced.

I think dude is right. It's a what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. People use to not build super tanky until the proc meta came with one tamriel. If you are a die hard pvp player, getting one shot by someone stacking camo hunter, viper/veli, tremor snb wombo combo, empowered crystal frag, heavy attack one shot builds, snipe spammers a couple dozen times, you start to build around the burst of glass cannon types or you become the glass cannon. It's a natural cycle. As long as you have one the other will exist.

True. I must say this most recent patch after being a week in feels good. Damage is high while everyone is also tanky. It makes the fights a tad more frustrating when you’re outnumbered though and has put a large dampen on vX scenarios which is unfortunate. That’s my one gripe with the current tanky meta.

AD definitely has some tough coordinated groups though and I don't even think zos can handicap coordination enough to make it not viable. Heck even pugs that mesh well/are experienced pvpers can take on groups much larger than them. The biggest threat imo is game performance issues like not being able to bar swap, abilities not firing, stun lock, etc. which only compounds the issues when facing opponents with increased survivability.

Yes, the groups stack which reduces performance. Building tanky means they are less likely to die in the lag. Builds that are less tanky die often more so from being unable to use abilities than from the build itself being unable to handle the incoming damage.

Koensol

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Today I ran into a group of DC tanks at brindle , the minimum health was 30k and multiple had 40-50k. I actually think @Toc de Malsvi was there.

It’s not just tank and spank builds, those are mostly used by small scalers. It’s about everyone else going really tanky or full tank and they group up with it.

I was at brindle yesterday
several times so its entirely possible. And yes its not just the tanky ball groups anymore. Half the zergs are all 30k+ health S&B bots that just stack in siege and spam heals.

It has been like this for ages. On PC EU Bahlokdaan for example you've got the EP factionstack zerg, which has been dominating the campaign for years and consists almost exclusively of builds like the ones you describe.

The thing with that is, they don't care that they can't kill anyone solo or that their builds are utter trash. They build purely to not die and overwhelm the opposition by sheer force of numbers, mostly spamming light attacks, cc and gap closers. This way they can reliably cap the map and not lose out on any ap. They have been doing it for years and it will not change. The tanky meta will not go away in any near future, that is for sure.

katorga

In high lag pvp tank builds are the way to go, just saying.

Minno

katorga wrote: »

In high lag pvp tank builds are the way to go, just saying.

can always go the way of the necro yolo-tank. took DC in upper IC a few tries to realize an AD necro tank was spaming its melee spamable to heal from 0-100. Once they ranged the spec, it died lol.

outside of block/shield though, the mitigation numbers are subject to heavy soft caps due to battlespirit and the multiplicative nature of mitigation.

jadarock

@Minno That heal really is amazing in melee. I'm leveling stam necro in cyrodiil with mismatched unoptimized garbage gear and it is very effective

Hashtag_

It boils down to healing being the most powerful thing in this game.

Minno

Hashtag_ wrote: »

It boils down to healing being the most powerful thing in this game.

not really. but what might need to happen is that healing should be impacted by battlespirit.

or uncouple dmg from battlespirit. Or only give 30% dmg mitigation instead of 50% with battlespirit.

Would like to see heals + crits next to dmg + crits and see how that looks. My guess battlespirit is the annoying culprit (it flattens the game for casuals lol).

edit:
derped. it already is impacted by BS. But since it can always do 1.5-1.6 crits in nCP/CP, dmg should be lessened by BS.

katorga

Minno wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

In high lag pvp tank builds are the way to go, just saying.

can always go the way of the necro yolo-tank. took DC in upper IC a few tries to realize an AD necro tank was spaming its melee spamable to heal from 0-100. Once they ranged the spec, it died lol.

outside of block/shield though, the mitigation numbers are subject to heavy soft caps due to battlespirit and the multiplicative nature of mitigation.

Well, my point is that in high lag scenarios you have to build in a buffer to allow time to react. It can he health, hots, high mitigation, shields, whatever, to cover you in situations when the damage is piling on before your client even knows it. That is more the solo, small group rationale. It is the reason why every build video states a minimum health stat required to survive and respond.

They build purely to not die and overwhelm the opposition by sheer force of numbers, mostly spamming light attacks, cc and gap closers.

This nails it. In group, open world PVP, this is the most rational way to play. You see it in every realm v. realm pvp mmo ever, going back to Dark Age of Camelot (my first game of this type).

Blinkin8r

Iskiab wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I doubt it’s actually tankiness considering your setup, you should be bringing people under 20k resistances to near 0.

Sounds more like health regen or lots of self healing. Try and add major defile.

Battlegrounds are no-CP, so its hard to take away 20k resistances.

Well, a sharpened maul would bring someone down to 4K resistances from 20k.

If someone’s indestructible they’re either perma blocking or have really high self healing/health recovery or both. Major defile or fear does the trick.

20000 - (3450 + 2752) = 13798. 20% ignored from maul = 11038 resistance left. Or am I missing something? Anyway I suppose its a combination of defensive PvP sets, self healing, damage shields and defensive class buffs and not only of resistances.

20k start
5k major fracture = 15k
20% maul = 12k
Spriggan’s plus sharpened = 6k

Isn’t that the right order of operations? I haven’t tested this stuff myself, I just went off what someone else said.

It's not only the right order of operations. But surprise attack doesn't give major fracture anymore lul

Minno

jadarock wrote: »

@Minno That heal really is amazing in melee. I'm leveling stam necro in cyrodiil with mismatched unoptimized garbage gear and it is very effective

yea its broken under certain specs lol. It should operate like templar sweeps/Nb siphoning heal, if they care about their "class audit" they recently performed lol.

Waffennacht

Minno wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

@Minno That heal really is amazing in melee. I'm leveling stam necro in cyrodiil with mismatched unoptimized garbage gear and it is very effective

yea its broken under certain specs lol. It should operate like templar sweeps/Nb siphoning heal, if they care about their "class audit" they recently performed lol.

It's like... Alright, in BGs you typically hit a group once before they figure you out and kite you azz down.

All the necro tools are more or less countered by using one's brain

jadarock

@Waffennacht
Which mean it deserves a nerf amirite

*edit for sarcasm

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

@Minno That heal really is amazing in melee. I'm leveling stam necro in cyrodiil with mismatched unoptimized garbage gear and it is very effective

yea its broken under certain specs lol. It should operate like templar sweeps/Nb siphoning heal, if they care about their "class audit" they recently performed lol.

It's like... Alright, in BGs you typically hit a group once before they figure you out and kite you azz down.

All the necro tools are more or less countered by using one's brain

As long as a 4man team can deal with it in a BG, then im fine with it. It does make CP flag based objectives hard. In IC, if you own the flag, and don't die, you can stop the flipping of a flag entirely unless you have a team with you(hence why I bring it up ). Took 10 of us to kill this player in CP

Waffennacht

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

@Minno That heal really is amazing in melee. I'm leveling stam necro in cyrodiil with mismatched unoptimized garbage gear and it is very effective

yea its broken under certain specs lol. It should operate like templar sweeps/Nb siphoning heal, if they care about their "class audit" they recently performed lol.

It's like... Alright, in BGs you typically hit a group once before they figure you out and kite you azz down.

All the necro tools are more or less countered by using one's brain

As long as a 4man team can deal with it in a BG, then im fine with it. It does make CP flag based objectives hard. In IC, if you own the flag, and don't die, you can stop the flipping of a flag entirely unless you have a team with you(hence why I bring it up ). Took 10 of us to kill this player in CP

Well what sucks is when you're out numbered as Goliath on a flag, they still flip it if you're on it and out numbered.

I'm trying so GD hard to find a version of Necro (that's not simple Stam build) that works

Edit: playing in Cyrodiil is stupid. It's crowded with horribly sub par players and 0 individual competitive nature

usmguy1234

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

As someone else already said Why is it not seen as a problem that you can build full damage spec and be insta gibbed by tanky players whom when you try to burst them dont even break a sweat .... how is this balance?

Totally agree. However, I have watched these same builds run around a tree or popping shields and blink with 5-6 good players trying to kill them for 15 - 20 minutes. I end the fight with a 3 hit combo from my glass cannon and then get hate mail from the guy I killed saying im ruining pvp. I honestly dont think a tanky build is a problem. I think too many people dont understand or learn how to play a survivable glass cannon type so there are less out there. If there were more, the meta wouldn't work as well and the world would be more balanced.

I think dude is right. It's a what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. People use to not build super tanky until the proc meta came with one tamriel. If you are a die hard pvp player, getting one shot by someone stacking camo hunter, viper/veli, tremor snb wombo combo, empowered crystal frag, heavy attack one shot builds, snipe spammers a couple dozen times, you start to build around the burst of glass cannon types or you become the glass cannon. It's a natural cycle. As long as you have one the other will exist.

True. I must say this most recent patch after being a week in feels good. Damage is high while everyone is also tanky. It makes the fights a tad more frustrating when you’re outnumbered though and has put a large dampen on vX scenarios which is unfortunate. That’s my one gripe with the current tanky meta.

AD definitely has some tough coordinated groups though and I don't even think zos can handicap coordination enough to make it not viable. Heck even pugs that mesh well/are experienced pvpers can take on groups much larger than them. The biggest threat imo is game performance issues like not being able to bar swap, abilities not firing, stun lock, etc. which only compounds the issues when facing opponents with increased survivability.

Yes, the groups stack which reduces performance. Building tanky means they are less likely to die in the lag. Builds that are less tanky die often more so from being unable to use abilities than from the build itself being unable to handle the incoming damage.

Agreed.