The tanky meta

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

Only things op regarding mitigation are:
- easy resist stack sources
- block based Mitigation is now additive with each other before being applied multiplicative
- shield subtract flat values post mitigation

Sorc shield probably needs to be the same level as Templar shield or takes a 3800 cost. Harness will need sustain nerf. Anything other than base Block Mitigation shouldn't be a thing, only block cost reduction. Probably need to redesign sets that give 1,2,3,4 PC resists or nerf the cap.

But most of these can't be done without nerfing pve. That's why I think they changed vulnerabilities rolling into percentage Mitigation.

JumpmanLane

Who runs 20k resistances lol. I know dummies running 40k. Sure you only get 50% mitigation from 33k the cap; but your debuffs are subtracted from their total resistances first. Then their other sources of mitigation are multiplicative like blocking, mitigation from blocking with a shield, mitigation from abilities like wings, mitigation from blocking projectiles with a shield, minor protection etc.

Don’t know where any shields they might have up come in exactly but it’s been explained to me as being similar to adding it to the targets health.

Then there’s heals. The sweet spot is like 14k or 15k pen. Anymore than that and it’s diminished returns really. Look to damage. Look to sustain. Look to your own survivability.

Build to kill 70% of the players you run in to and your build will carry you. For the other 30% it’s gonna come down to skill. Recognize some people you’re just not going to be able to kill and that’ll come down to your skill or your playstyle just being countered by your opponents skill or his particular playstyle.

Iskiab

LordTareq wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Anyone else seeing an exponential increase in battlegrounds of these really tanky builds? Lately it seems like every other player I run into is just this indestructible damage sponge no matter the class. In response I've adapted my build to do more and more damage, but now I've reached a point where my survivability is crap, my damage vs 'normal' players is insane, and sustain is decent. However the tankier target's I still just can't really harm despite having invested significantly in armor penetration (maul, sharpened bow, spriggans, Onslaught ultimate that ignores resistance).

The reason we have tanky people is because they enjoy pvp. The reason meta shifted to heavy armor is because damage is way to high.

People enjoy pvp and don't like dieing in 3 seconds so tank meta will always exist because of this.

Also compared to what PvP games is damage in ESO too high? In my experience most other MMO's have PvP in which you die much faster. My Bountyhunter in SWTOR melted people in seconds. My hunter and warlock in WoW (okey that was 10 years ago) the same. Age of Conan had the most intense and fast paced PvP ever.

I don’t think AoC was as fast paced as ESO can be now. Lag combined with high burst and ESO can be way more burst then AoC. I played a bear shaman in that game when it came out, a high burst class that was nerfed because the burst was as high as ESO can be. WoW was never a real pvp game. I never played SWOTOR. I played DAoC, War, and Rift and in all those cases healing was lower but TTK was ridiculously higher then ESO.

Right now ESO combines high damage with healing, short term temporary buffs, etc... result is if you’re caught unaware you can be ganked in seconds if you aren’t tanky. Self healing becomes like mitigation offsetting incoming damage and is required so your TTK isn’t too low. Especially important with all the cc’s flying around.

As for building to increase your damage a small % and taking way more damage, that’s your choice and the game does not need to accommodate you. That’s comparable to building with no self healing or damage, then complaining you can’t stay alive or kill anyone.

All these complaints I feel are from older players who haven’t adapted to more people pvping so their strategies aren’t working. Try something new and see if you like it. How long you’ve been playing the game doesn’t make someone’s opinion more important.

Plus, the number 1 reason why
PvP isn’t more popular in ESO is the low TTK. People I speak with always say the same thing, ‘before I knew what was happening I was dead’. It’s been the biggest deterrent to people pvping in my opinion.

Cyrodiil’s popular enough, BGs though? Last I heard about 7% of players do cyrodiil, 3% trial HMs, 1% BGs. BGs have been a failure so I’m pretty sure wanting changes reverted will get you nowhere.

JumpmanLane

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

^This! I was gonna type this.

I don’t run defensive sets. I might run 1 Chudan or something sometimes. It’s like Blobs said once about theorycrafting. Look at Damage, Sunstain, and Survivability and then decide where you get those things according to your playstyle.

Put it to you this way, I got over cap resistances in light armor running 1 damage set and 1 damage/sustain set, 1 one piece damage monster head, 1 one piece damage/sustain monste shoulder and MOP fools!

Talking about things like “tank meta” is just a sideways call for nerfs.

LordTareq

Iskiab wrote: »

All these complaints I feel are from older players who haven’t adapted to more people pvping so their strategies aren’t working. Try something new and see if you like it. How long you’ve been playing the game doesn’t make someone’s opinion more important.

Young whippersnapper, listen to your elders!! We know what's good for you!
Really big assumption you are making there by the way.

Plus, the number 1 reason why
PvP isn’t more popular in ESO is the low TTK. People I speak with always say the same thing, ‘before I knew what was happening I was dead’. It’s been the biggest deterrent to people pvping in my opinion.

There is a huge skillgap yes, which is a shame. I actually agree that base TTK should be higher, and the difference between new players and veteran PvP'ers should be much smaller.

Cyrodiil’s popular enough, BGs though? Last I heard about 7% of players do cyrodiil, 3% trial HMs, 1% BGs. BGs have been a failure so I’m pretty sure wanting changes reverted will get you nowhere.

How do you know? Were you there? I heard she had nothing to do with it...err... I mean where do you get your numbers? Also it would help if battlegrounds were not bugged every third match or so, and the group finder would actually work during prime time.

Waffennacht

@LordTareq I agree @Iskiab where you getting those numbers?

Iskiab

Waffennacht wrote: »

@LordTareq I agree @Iskiab where you getting those numbers?

Shooting the *** with a guilty. He might have been full of it, but we were discussing how endgame for ESO is moreso pvp then pve.

ecru

It seems like most people build to stay alive, not to kill things. It's boring but if you build for enough damage you can still kill them. It's fun when I run into these builds and pressure them so much that all they can do is stand there and cast a shield over and over again. They eventually make a mistake here or there and die. Unfortunately the time it takes these builds to die often gives other people plenty of time to show up and zerg you down. Oh well.

Either way there's a point where, if you can apply enough pressure, you don't need as much defense to stay alive because your opponent is constantly on the defensive. You have to play more careful but it's a more satisfying way to play IMO. There are outliers like petsorcs with seemingly infinite sustain/shields who can still apply pressure (hello Zap) to you while on the defensive, but those are outliers that you're going to have a hard time against with any build.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

^This! I was gonna type this.

I don’t run defensive sets. I might run 1 Chudan or something sometimes. It’s like Blobs said once about theorycrafting. Look at Damage, Sunstain, and Survivability and then decide where you get those things according to your playstyle.

Put it to you this way, I got over cap resistances in light armor running 1 damage set and 1 damage/sustain set, 1 one piece damage monster head, 1 one piece damage/sustain monste shoulder and MOP fools!

Talking about things like “tank meta” is just a sideways call for nerfs.

Falls into the same category though.

Triune is better than infused dmg or singlestat.
Defending is more value than stats overall.
Defensive monster 2p are generally better than offensive ones.
Defensive monster 1p are VASTLY superior than any other setbonus.

So you´re both right. It´s more than tanky sets outperforming offensive ones.
It´s almost every single choice in the game where tanky/sustain is weighted against the dmg option that the former is superior.

killahsin

bardx86 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

There is a subtle difference between building so you don't die in 3 seconds, and building so you don't die.

The problem has two dimensions though.

1. Not dying in 3 seconds depends very heavily on the player being able to utilize the games active defense mechanics.

2. Because of 1. and ZOS trying to cater to people incapable of fulfilling this requirement gearing allows to build tanky enough to not ever die in 3s.

Yup and the game is complete *** now.

which is hilarious because the meta is nowhere near as tanky as it was the first year and a half, where everyone was rocking cloth on perma block rotations with access to every defensive skill in the game interchangeably.

nCats

The higher MMR BG were emphasizing survival for a while already, not sure if this is news.

This discussion also neglects how BGs are balanced. Once you get a few premades in your solo queue and get steamrolled, you start to think about some protection, especially if you’re not a stealth class. (Dedicated healer premades are annoying to kill in return even if you get a decent random team)

No-premade higher mmr can be quite fun though and lead to some interesting duels and bigger fights.

technohic

I dont think it's that bad. I dont go super tanky as I go damage and recovery. Typically full medium with Bloodspawn. What makes me feel tanky I think, is all 5he players running no penetration outside of CP and building to be tanky themselves. I can run through a zerg if I keep my buffs up but a solid good player with damage and I need to watch for a window to put them on their back foot.

Problem with what I do is lag making buffs not fire when I think they did, or delaying a CC break can be a death sentence

silver1surfer69

what are these guys using, it cant be staedfast hero only, because they seem to have like 38% damage reduction all the time not only half the time. (8% comes from psyjic ult passive eg.)

silver1surfer69

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

With health not in pvp. guys with very high health, i can bring down very fast, thats no problem. they have high resistance (lately i ran into someone with like 45 or 55k resistance, dont remember exactly. I know that because 2h ult shows the resistance increase in fight log) + insane damage reduction like 38% (major and minor), but somehow all the time with no pause and buffs from teamates i guess. only thing that really hurts them is oblivion damage.

Stibbons

I have to agree. You just cannot go damage or just healer. You have to be tanky as hell and still do mediocre damage. Imposible to kill anyone if you are dead when you are somewhat targeted. Go hvy or go home. Swift light etc will work too.

BlackMadara

@Minno are you saying that they've changed block mitigation bonuses to be additive instead of multiplicative? I.e. DK 10% block passive makes base block mitigation 60% instead of 55%?

SodanTok

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think you guys are looking at it from a dueling or very small group perspective.

Sure in those settings anticipating one person’s actions work and you can block or dodge roll one person’s actions. However, even in a battleground this is impossible because you can’t keep track of what 8 people are doing.

Myself I much prefer building tanky. The whole glass canon thing is ridiculous to me - he who gets the burst/stun combo off wins. I even dislike being grouped in BGs with those type of players because they’re unhealable, so end up being really passive and try to use their team as a shield and blow up in seconds in any engagement.

I don’t know what the game was like before, but building tanky makes the game more like other pvp games where fights aren’t over in less then 5 seconds. ESO is too high damage and healing compared to other games, and building tanky makes the game feel like a proper MMO pvp game.

Thats fine in my book.

I have nothing against building tanky in general. But i also think building as a glass cannon should be legitimate and vaible - which it currently is not.

The reason i dislike building tanky in eso currently is that it comes without a real tradeoff. A glasscannon makes huge sacrifices in tankiness AND sustain to achieve between 15 and 25% higher damage output.
As a result someone building for tankiness and sustain makes marginal sacrifices in dmg to gain massive sustain and survivability.

The root issue of this is imo defensive sets being magnitudes stronger than offensive sets.

Thing is, I don't even need defensive sets to build mad tanky builds.

I can build tanky via health and health scaling abilities
Or
I can build tanky via block and inter woven defensive ults
Or
I can build mad tanky via mitigation channels and stacking resistance

But tanky comes from many different sources

^This! I was gonna type this.

I don’t run defensive sets. I might run 1 Chudan or something sometimes. It’s like Blobs said once about theorycrafting. Look at Damage, Sunstain, and Survivability and then decide where you get those things according to your playstyle.

Put it to you this way, I got over cap resistances in light armor running 1 damage set and 1 damage/sustain set, 1 one piece damage monster head, 1 one piece damage/sustain monste shoulder and MOP fools!

Talking about things like “tank meta” is just a sideways call for nerfs.

Falls into the same category though.

Triune is better than infused dmg or singlestat.
Defending is more value than stats overall.
Defensive monster 2p are generally better than offensive ones.
Defensive monster 1p are VASTLY superior than any other setbonus.

So you´re both right. It´s more than tanky sets outperforming offensive ones.
It´s almost every single choice in the game where tanky/sustain is weighted against the dmg option that the former is superior.

This is the main issue. Defenses are consistently being cheaper than offenses across everything.

129 damage / 1090 stats / 1450 penetration never come close in offensive power to what defensive power 2975 resistance gives. 100 damage / 850 stat / 10% under 25% hp same compared to 1800 resistances.
I dont have to point out how Major Protection on pirate skeleton even with not ideal uptime is way better than minor berserk on slimecraw or how impenetrable/impregnable is totally blowing out any reasonable source of crit damage
Transmutation set wouldnt be considered OP but equal offensive set would be 'give 20% more crit damage'

mursie

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Play as you want. Some are Tanky, some are Glass cannons. It is what it is.

The ones that are glass cannons do not know what they are doing.

Sadly. The benefit of investing into dmg stats over sustain or defense is virtually nonexistant.

It’s rare to find a good player that isn’t running damage sets.

This patch made it easy to still be tanky while building for dmg.

There’s no reason to be in a 5pc tank set right now unless you’re targeting a very specific type of medium or large scale gameplay that involves zergbusting in laggy environments

I meant that more along the line of running 2 (or 3 with monster) dmg sets and dmg enchants.
Yes most players wear 1 dmg set. But usually thats accompanied by either a sustain or tank set, tanky or atleast stat oriented jewelry traits and enchants and mundusstone.

I´m not blaming anyone mind you. It´s not that i´m doing anything different.

That combined with the horrible usual forum advice of telling people to spec glass canon with no defense while learning to pvp.

New players have caught on that they aren’t learning anything constantly respawning and padding other pvp players kill stats.

there's nothing horrible about that advice. if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

katorga

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

bardx86

katorga wrote: »

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

The problem is in high MMR you have 16 people all grouped together just spamming skills hoping someone dies. It's completely stupid mindless game play. I honestly don't know why anyone even moves around in that type of game play. It's not remotely fun. As Derra pointed out, some folks want to play glass cannon builds and those builds don't even scratch folks even tho they have traded survivability and sustain for damage.

On a side note why isn't there more access to penetration?

Waffennacht

bardx86 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

The problem is in high MMR you have 16 people all grouped together just spamming skills hoping someone dies. It's completely stupid mindless game play. I honestly don't know why anyone even moves around in that type of game play. It's not remotely fun. As Derra pointed out, some folks want to play glass cannon builds and those builds don't even scratch folks even tho they have traded survivability and sustain for damage.

On a side note why isn't there more access to penetration?

A high damage dealing DD isn't so much why the tanky builds. The damn 100-0 builds from stealth force players into mad tanks.

I know facing an Unkillable tank isn't fun; but what's less fun is just being dropped.

It's not fun being a brawler and having an NB or Sorc cloak/streak away, then come back to drop ults when you've engaged someone else.

It's not fun having someone spam Surprise Attack into your back.

But it's alright enjoyment if I actually survive and maybe finish off a cocky NB or Sorc or two

technohic

bardx86 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

The problem is in high MMR you have 16 people all grouped together just spamming skills hoping someone dies. It's completely stupid mindless game play. I honestly don't know why anyone even moves around in that type of game play. It's not remotely fun. As Derra pointed out, some folks want to play glass cannon builds and those builds don't even scratch folks even tho they have traded survivability and sustain for damage.

On a side note why isn't there more access to penetration?

Hmm Sounds like a microcosm of Cyrodiil ball groups only you cant just go somewhere else.

LordTareq

Waffennacht wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

The problem is in high MMR you have 16 people all grouped together just spamming skills hoping someone dies. It's completely stupid mindless game play. I honestly don't know why anyone even moves around in that type of game play. It's not remotely fun. As Derra pointed out, some folks want to play glass cannon builds and those builds don't even scratch folks even tho they have traded survivability and sustain for damage.

On a side note why isn't there more access to penetration?

A high damage dealing DD isn't so much why the tanky builds. The damn 100-0 builds from stealth force players into mad tanks.

I know facing an Unkillable tank isn't fun; but what's less fun is just being dropped.

It's not fun being a brawler and having an NB or Sorc cloak/streak away, then come back to drop ults when you've engaged someone else.

It's not fun having someone spam Surprise Attack into your back.

But it's alright enjoyment if I actually survive and maybe finish off a cocky NB or Sorc or two

But that’s actually not true. I can survive NB ganks on my NB in most cases and thats with pretty much a glass cannon build. Break free -> dodge roll -> vigor -> dodge roll in my case. Which is something any class can emulate or even do better. The only thing you need is to reach a certain health treshold and use crit resistance traits. But you don’t need 40k resistances and 38% damage reduction buffs for that.

ecru

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

what are these guys using, it cant be staedfast hero only, because they seem to have like 38% damage reduction all the time not only half the time. (8% comes from psyjic ult passive eg.)

i see a lot of templar skeletons with shields in BGs, or skeletons in general, so that

Stibbons wrote: »

I have to agree. You just cannot go damage or just healer. You have to be tanky as hell and still do mediocre damage. Imposible to kill anyone if you are dead when you are somewhat targeted. Go hvy or go home. Swift light etc will work too.

i do fine in 6 medium/1 heavy but with high resists from protective jewelry plus blood spawn. you don't have to sacrifice as much damage as you think and the cost reduction/mobility from medium makes up for the slightly lower resists/healing taken with general avoidance, but you have to be aware to actually make use of it, and not do something stupid like dodge roll 4 times in 10 seconds and use all of your stam.

bardx86

Waffennacht wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is an mmo. You will face multiple attackers. You have to build enough tankiness to survive using a combination of armor, heals, shields, and block/dodge.

What is the problem?

The problem is in high MMR you have 16 people all grouped together just spamming skills hoping someone dies. It's completely stupid mindless game play. I honestly don't know why anyone even moves around in that type of game play. It's not remotely fun. As Derra pointed out, some folks want to play glass cannon builds and those builds don't even scratch folks even tho they have traded survivability and sustain for damage.

On a side note why isn't there more access to penetration?

A high damage dealing DD isn't so much why the tanky builds. The damn 100-0 builds from stealth force players into mad tanks.

I know facing an Unkillable tank isn't fun; but what's less fun is just being dropped.

It's not fun being a brawler and having an NB or Sorc cloak/streak away, then come back to drop ults when you've engaged someone else.

It's not fun having someone spam Surprise Attack into your back.

But it's alright enjoyment if I actually survive and maybe finish off a cocky NB or Sorc or two

But the problem is that many of those unkillable tanks in BG's can now turn around and 2 shot you. The balance just isn't there. There should be a damage tradeoff for being tanky and some classes that's not the case.

Anti_Virus

Everyone complaining about the tank meta, when I say we are in a damage meta.

Unkillable tank builds are meh

One shot tanky dps builds are not cool(NBs and Sorcs)

jadarock

As someone else already said Why is it not seen as a problem that you can build full damage spec and be insta gibbed by tanky players whom when you try to burst them dont even break a sweat .... how is this balance?

CatchMeTrolling

If you think there isn’t a tank meta you must be on a different platform or regularly play large scale.

If people are complaining about it in bgs that means the problem becomes worse in CP pvp. The only way I’m able to kill these builds is because I run a ridiculous amount of pen or have one other person with me. Still, even then it can be a nuisance to bring them down in a reasonable amount of time. The problem with the way people are building is there’s no type of skill behind it, the gear carries them. I can do what they do in medium armor.

Side note: warden and dk also needs to have minor mending not major.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

A bit of a problem is that Cyrodiil rewards players for building to not die and does not reward players for being powerful and effective in combat. You get AP and quest progression for being nearby while combat happens and your ability to contribute as a Zerg-surfer isn’t acknowledged by the game.

The game doesn’t even tell you when you get a killing blow on someone so it’s easy to believe that you did a lot during a big fight when you, in fact, helped very little.

ChunkyCat

Thogard wrote: »

I keep track of 8 people all the time. That’s kind of a requirement for not being a feeder in high MMR BGs

*cough*bull$hlt*cough*

*clears throat* ahem.

Excuse me.

I meant to say “cool.”