Please add a Dungeon Finder with no "kick-possibility"

MartiniDaniels

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

As I said, I'm not anywhere good at the game so yeah obviously I'm doing something wrong to make people triggered. Maybe low DPS, maybe bad tanking; I don't know

But I think clarifying what I'm doing wrong in that situation would be much much much more useful than just kicking me without even saying anything

Well, as I say low-dps is doubtfully a problem, since people who can estimate your dps (other deeps with CMX addon) usually will have high dps and be only happy that you give them chance to feel like a god. But for tank yes, there are certain expectation what tank should do - first of all keep boss taunted and in place if mechanics allow it, pull mobs with chains or silver leash to boss to burn in aoe, immobilize mobs with class abilities etc.. also agressive horn ultimate and crusher enchantment on weapon, but I doubt that anybody will initiate kick on tank in normals due to lack of horn..

FierceSam

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Totally agree that people should be able to do dungeons without being kicked. However, this is the wrong way to deal with it. The unintended consequences will ensure it has exactly the opposite effect to the one OP wanted.

The point of the group finder is to find players who don’t have a group additional group members.

In addition to its many flaws, it also has to accommodate the fact that at any 1 time there aren’t a huge number of people wanting to use it, that the vast majority of these players are DDs and that none of us wants to wait for more than an instant.

The group finder incentivises players to join by offering them a reward for playing a random dungeon. This creates the view that it’s OK for them to rush through it as fast as possible to collect their reward. They’re not focussed on the specific dungeon, they don’t have any investment in the group and they’re simply trying to get as much XP from their time as possible (all of which is totally understandable btw).

Further segmenting the queue into Fast/Slow runs would be massively disadvantageous to the slow runners. They would never be grouped with the fast runners and would have even longer queue times. Speed runners would welcome it because it would eliminate any pretence that they were doing anything other than speeding through a dungeon to collect their reward.

Those who wanted to go slow would, indeed, have that experience. Their queue would take longer to pop.

As people have already said, the best way to accomplish the OP’s aim (being able to do dungeons slowly without worrying about being kicked) is to form your own group outside the group finder. Guilds are a good way to create pools of players for this and hopefully the new Guild Finder will prove to be a great tool to do this.

TL:DR Guild Finder is a better long term solution to this. Also, PUGs are PUGs, you shouldn’t be kicking people from them.

I don't know, obviously the main queue will still get slower but, I don't think it necessarily mean the new dungeon finder will be slooooooooow af.

Maybe they could try to put it as a "test" (as they said they did with skyshards in crown store) and if not so many people use the new finder, just remove it.

I'm not a programmer nor a developer so doing this could be harder than I think; just an idea tho.

Hey Koba,

I’m not saying the group finder will be any slower than it is functionally. I’m saying that the pool of players wanting to join a Slow Run group will be lower than both the existing pool and the Fast Run pool. This would mean that there are fewer players to join those who want a Slow Run, making that queue take longer to find matches. It would also mean that those players who were joining for the XP only (ie they’re not really concerned which dungeons they run as they’ve probably run them all, they are just doing it for the rewards) would NEVER opt for the Slow Run.

So the unintended consequence is that both queues would probably take longer, but the Slow Run queue would take longer than the Fast Run queue. This trend would accelerate as those who weren’t bothered began to opt for the quicker-to-pop Fast Run, which would increase numbers and thus pop even faster. And the queues would indeed become Fast and Slow.

I totally appreciate the desire to do dungeons slowly, either to enjoy the story or to learn them. I think using the Guild Finder is a better, longer term solution.

Enjoy the game

Tsar_Gekkou

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

Just don't be selfish and try to screw over the rest of the group, and you usually won't get kicked. If your roleplaying is constantly getting the group wiped or you're just wandering around counting floor tiles, then the needs of the group will outweigh the needs of the few and the weakest link will learn what the shape of Italy is.

Sooooo basically what you’re saying is that the devs shouldn’t bother adding stories to the dungeons anymore? Cool.

I'm not sure you actually read my comment. Roleplaying as a magical wizard janitor who enjoys sightseeing or whatever has nothing to do with the story. The npcs only talk for a few seconds at most, the main exceptions being the end of Banished Cells 1 and the entirety of Vaults of Madness. The story has nothing to do with people screwing around while the other three people are actually trying to do the dungeon.

tyggerbob

I've said this before in other posts on this same topic (of which there are many) I won't kick people who are:
a) trying
b) are acceptance of assistance and constructive criticism

People who keep saying "Oh. you don't need a tank or healer, this is normal" are full of it. if everyone's a lowbie, everyone still has to do their job. The boss still needs to be taunted. People still need to be healed after a hard hit that they missed the block on. This is where you learn to do your jobs in preparation for harder content, especially for new players to the game.

I'm a pretty experienced tank, and when I ask our obviously ill-equipped tank if they have a taunt after the boss runs around all over un-aggroed and get told "This is normal, I don't need one!" or "If you were DPSing better, I wouldn't need one" or "What's a taunt" I will politely offer suggestions on skills etc. But if when I get told to mind my own business or F-off, then the kick-hammer comes out. I don't do it for no reason, or to be an ass..

Just my $0.02

tyggerbob

MattT1988 wrote: »

A couple of the reasons why the kick feature is essential is because it helps stop people from:
• Queuing into the dungeon and just sitting at the start not doing anything expecting people just to complete most of the dungeon or the entire dungeon without them
• Queuing for a role you have no intention of doing, (a dps queuing as a tank and not putting a taunt on).

The kicking feature is essential.

I agree with this completely!

Tsar_Gekkou

Valenor wrote: »

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

Valenor wrote: »

Kicking people in a normal dungeon shouldnt be a thing. It should be removed. They are easy enough to be completed without a dedicated healer or tank.

I 100% agree with you
But even on veteran dungeons I think it should be somehow limited at least

Locking the kick option for 15 minutes might be a start.

They'd have to get rid of the 15 minute queue timer to balance that out though. Zos already doesn't care that people who get matched up with fake tanks using 2-handers in dlc dungeons can't leave and immediately requeue, so people would be unhappy that even more of their time is being wasted by trolls who now have a guaranteed 15 minutes to mess around.

thorwyn

A "no kick" filter would be heaven for trolls and griefers. If one guy who seriously wants do play the dungeon ends up being grouped with three muppets who are just fooling around, his only option is to leave the group and accept the timer. The filter doesn't solve anything, it just invites people to abuse it. Even if they stay inside the boundaries of the COC, they can still mess up quite a lot.

OrphanHelgen

Cp 300 tank in frostvault. No taunt. Died on every attack. We explain, he never communicate. Died on first attack of boss 5 times in a row. Refuses to communicate.
I tell you, if option to kick isn't a thing, there would be 3 people leaving group instead.
I don't kick people because I'm having a bad day or because their crusher uptime isnt the best.
I kick people when they literally refuse to communicate and the chance of completion is 0%. Even when chance of completion is 0%, Im still polite and let them try. This is what I need to pay for using group tool.
If you want to play for fun without kick, I have some suggestions: 1, do it with guild via guild chat. 2: dont do it in the newest veteran dungeons, which actually require some sort of skills and experience to do. 3: do normal not vet. Its that simple.

Leeched

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

As I said, I'm not anywhere good at the game so yeah obviously I'm doing something wrong to make people triggered. Maybe low DPS, maybe bad tanking; I don't know

But I think clarifying what I'm doing wrong in that situation would be much much much more useful than just kicking me without even saying anything

There are TONS of guides on the internet (both written and videos) about every class and build. It doesnt take much time reading/watching some of them. If you are getting kicked cause you don't fulfill your role, learn to play your role better so you won't end up getting kicked. If you reply to this with "I am a causal player and only want to have fun" well, that would be the laziest excuse ever and would pretty much make clear you don't even try to get better but the point of this thread being how you want to get carried through (vet) content without the fear of getting vote kicked - my 2 cents.

Hibernato

This is already implemented in the game, its a PC EU exclusive though and only available in the evenings.

Can't get kicked on group finder if you can't even enter the dungeon.

FierceSam

Hibernato wrote: »

This is already implemented in the game, its a PC EU exclusive though and only available in the evenings.

Can't get kicked on group finder if you can't even enter the dungeon.

So, so, so true.

Massacre_Wurm

Totally agree. I am tired of that eltisit rushers kicking your from the group because you fall a little behind ( doing quest or something ) and than get lost ( or killed ) because they took some wierd shortcut and skipped half of the dungeon.

VaranisArano

Warframe has a no-kick groupfinder.

Most of the time I'm fine with it, becauae the regular content is easy to do with randoms.

But sometimes, someone goes completely AFK, and that's when I start thinking about how ESO's kick function is kinda nice.

tgrippa

In practice it would lead to more issues. There are many reasons why people would need to kick people occasionally from a group.

A better option would be to have a 15 min timer at the end of a dungeon allowing everyone to leave and you the opportunity to run around the dungeon reading books etc.

An even better option would be you finding a likeminded group of players and doing this niche type of dungeon run with them, since it is only a minority of people that want to run a dungeon this way. Taeser already mentioned that they have a roleplay guild, and there is also now a guild finder tool. Invest a little time in these things and reap the benefits. If you don’t, then don’t expect any favours.

The real problem with the dungeon finder is that it is not stable or reliable. If it was, then it would be fine. It does not need the ability to remove the kick option.

Rerum

Why just don't ask people to don't rush if you have a quest/slow and etc?
I never have face problems like this, i mean that i never got a kicked from dungeons. And every time if i have a quest or whatever reason i just ask people not to rush. And it's work fine. The reality is that people using DF mostly for daily xp reward and the minority using it for other reasons, so find people with similar point of view like yours is hard.

Tsar_Gekkou

Rerum wrote: »

Why just don't ask people to don't rush if you have a quest/slow and etc?
I never have face problems like this, i mean that i never got a kicked from dungeons. And every time if i have a quest or whatever reason i just ask people not to rush. And it's work fine. The reality is that people using DF mostly for daily xp reward and the minority using it for other reasons, so find people with similar point of view like yours is hard.

People don't like to communicate for some reason and expect others to read their mind. If i'm in a dungeon with a low-level person, I make sure to stick around for a bit at the end of the dungeon in case they need to turn in the quest. But if I don't see anyone in a group of 160cp+ people talking to an npc, I assume they aren't doing the quest and leave at the end like normal. If you mention that you're doing the quest, most people will accommodate you. No idea why people don't get this.

sionIV

I'm going to share an idiom with you.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Neyane

The only time I kick is if you're shouting abuse in chat, being rude, being an a**hole or any other kind of stuff. Or if in VET content you are NOT playing your role correctly. I.E healer not healing, tank not tanking ETC. Kicking in normal dungeons is very stupid as they are so easy. However having this queue option could lead to more issues such as, more abuse (and not being able to kick that person), the other queue or the new queue not being filled because people are all over the place.

Simply remove kick option from normal dungeons and that will solve 99% of the problems.

A simple reminder though to TELL people if you have quest, TELL people if you want to take it slow. 9 times out of 10 people will listen. They will wait for you. I feel for you OP, I hope something happens.

zaria

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

As I said, I'm not anywhere good at the game so yeah obviously I'm doing something wrong to make people triggered. Maybe low DPS, maybe bad tanking; I don't know

But I think clarifying what I'm doing wrong in that situation would be much much much more useful than just kicking me without even saying anything

In trials its the trial leader who kicks, its not an vote like in dungeons using the dungeon finder.
Not experienced any getting kicked from normal trials for other reason than disconnect or afk for long time.
Fake healers or tanks will be kicked here however.
Also trolls who pull bosses before tank multiple times. Very unlikely to be kicked because dying to much.

Merlight

sionIV wrote: »

I'm going to share an idiom with you.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Now back on topic: Dungeon Finder.

bmnoble

Don't really see the need for a no kick option.

I only kick those who are not doing their role, or people acting like idiots.

Other than that most groups can carry a mediocre healer/tank but if you get 1 or 2 crap DPS the dungeon can become tedious to complete assuming the group can even manage to complete the dungeon, before either the DPS get kicked or the tank/healer abandons the group.

In short people who queue want to get on with the dungeon, most have no problem with you doing the quest, if you fulfill your role you won't get kicked.

Only been kicked twice before during the same dungeon, was tanking Frostvault awhile back, I had run the dungeon before a number of time, must have been having some input lag that night(I am an Aussie so connection is red bar most of the time), since my interrupts were not working on the troll boss resulting in the group wiping. Got vote kicked, already been about 20 mins so I queued again, ended up back with them, had the same issue got kicked again. Called it a night, ran the dungeon again the following day with a different group had no issues.

I use to stick it out with most struggling groups, making a point of teaching the mechanics but lately gotten sick of dungeons taking twice as long, as they should been leaving a lot of PUG groups, after the main warning sign of the DPS struggling to kill the trash on the way to the boss/kill the first boss.

kathandira

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

snip

I dig the place that this idea is coming from. I'd like to offer an alternative. You touched on this, and i'd like to put more focus on it. Dungeon Finders matchmaking needs to be better.

Last night I was running a low level character. in a few dungeons I was matched up with other low level characters. It was awesome! Granted, I have over 750CP under my belt and was able to perform at a higher level than a true low level character, but even with that, we weren't just blowing through the place. Fights took a reasonable amount of time without it feeling like a chore. In one dungeon though, I was the only low level, everyone else was between 500-810CP. In that one, bosses were melted in a few short seconds.

I'd like if there was some sort of check to ensure you are matched up with people who are in your bracket. CP could be a metric since that is account bound and still tagged to your low level character. Or perhaps it could be dungeon achievements. Although it isn't marked off on a new character, achievements are account bound when you consider the rewards you get from them (Think Outfit Dyes).

If players were matched up with others who have similar experience with the game, it might be more enjoyable for everyone who is participating in the group.

darkblue5

I've gotten enough tanks that only queued to troll in the dungeon finder to know that being actually unable to kick them would end up being a nightmare. Wouldn't take many trolls to royally mess up the no-kick queue.

Ysbriel

You must be really doing something bad and are coming up with a narrative to cover up, to know “what the dungeon is about” only takes a few seconds to read in when you talk to each and every NPC or wait till the dialogue instances that cannot be skipped end, and nobody will kick you out of the dungeon because of that unless you’re legit taking forever every short dialogue that they have, people will even stop and pull out a merchant if you ask for one or stop and summon yours. and i am one that checks each and every container, no enemy left alive type of delver i pull every single mob as a tank have 180 bag space for a reason and i don’t sprint. If you are a Damage Dealer and are not killing the enemy in a timely manner , Healer and everybody is healing themselves, tank and not taunting and dying all the time , you will cause people to lose resources, specially if everyone is dying over and over. Unless you want to make it clear that everybody should sacrifice all their resources, its not like food, potions and repairs were any cheap. For normal mode there are builds that can help you go through the dungeon, have fun but also be effective in a casual way, sherman’s gaming is a youtube channel dedicated for that, you can check him out so you don’t get kicked no more.

Massacre_Wurm

Neyane wrote: »

Kicking in normal dungeons is very stupid as they are so easy. However having this queue option could lead to more issues such as, more abuse (and not being able to kick that person), the other queue or the new queue not being filled because people are all over the place.

Funny thing. I play only normal dungeon. And havent see a single "abuser" yet. Skill of the players is not a problem because dungeons is not hard.
The only one problem in NORMAL dungeons is elitist rushers ruining my questing.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Leeched wrote: »

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

As I said, I'm not anywhere good at the game so yeah obviously I'm doing something wrong to make people triggered. Maybe low DPS, maybe bad tanking; I don't know

But I think clarifying what I'm doing wrong in that situation would be much much much more useful than just kicking me without even saying anything

There are TONS of guides on the internet (both written and videos) about every class and build. It doesnt take much time reading/watching some of them. If you are getting kicked cause you don't fulfill your role, learn to play your role better so you won't end up getting kicked. If you reply to this with "I am a causal player and only want to have fun" well, that would be the laziest excuse ever and would pretty much make clear you don't even try to get better but the point of this thread being how you want to get carried through (vet) content without the fear of getting vote kicked - my 2 cents.

Just a reminder that we aren't even talking about vet dungeons so I don't know how I could get carried anyway in those

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Hibernato wrote: »

This is already implemented in the game, its a PC EU exclusive though and only available in the evenings.

Can't get kicked on group finder if you can't even enter the dungeon.

Hahahahaha nice one

Yea that's another problem ZoS needs to fix ;P

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Totally agree. I am tired of that eltisit rushers kicking your from the group because you fall a little behind ( doing quest or something ) and than get lost ( or killed ) because they took some wierd shortcut and skipped half of the dungeon.

I know right? Honestly it's frustrating sometimes

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

VaranisArano wrote: »

Warframe has a no-kick groupfinder.

Most of the time I'm fine with it, becauae the regular content is easy to do with randoms.

But sometimes, someone goes completely AFK, and that's when I start thinking about how ESO's kick function is kinda nice.

Yea, when someone's afk the kick function is more than justified. They should implement like an afk automatic kick or something, idk

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

FierceSam wrote: »

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Totally agree that people should be able to do dungeons without being kicked. However, this is the wrong way to deal with it. The unintended consequences will ensure it has exactly the opposite effect to the one OP wanted.

The point of the group finder is to find players who don’t have a group additional group members.

In addition to its many flaws, it also has to accommodate the fact that at any 1 time there aren’t a huge number of people wanting to use it, that the vast majority of these players are DDs and that none of us wants to wait for more than an instant.

The group finder incentivises players to join by offering them a reward for playing a random dungeon. This creates the view that it’s OK for them to rush through it as fast as possible to collect their reward. They’re not focussed on the specific dungeon, they don’t have any investment in the group and they’re simply trying to get as much XP from their time as possible (all of which is totally understandable btw).

Further segmenting the queue into Fast/Slow runs would be massively disadvantageous to the slow runners. They would never be grouped with the fast runners and would have even longer queue times. Speed runners would welcome it because it would eliminate any pretence that they were doing anything other than speeding through a dungeon to collect their reward.

Those who wanted to go slow would, indeed, have that experience. Their queue would take longer to pop.

As people have already said, the best way to accomplish the OP’s aim (being able to do dungeons slowly without worrying about being kicked) is to form your own group outside the group finder. Guilds are a good way to create pools of players for this and hopefully the new Guild Finder will prove to be a great tool to do this.

TL:DR Guild Finder is a better long term solution to this. Also, PUGs are PUGs, you shouldn’t be kicking people from them.

I don't know, obviously the main queue will still get slower but, I don't think it necessarily mean the new dungeon finder will be slooooooooow af.

Maybe they could try to put it as a "test" (as they said they did with skyshards in crown store) and if not so many people use the new finder, just remove it.

I'm not a programmer nor a developer so doing this could be harder than I think; just an idea tho.

Hey Koba,

I’m not saying the group finder will be any slower than it is functionally. I’m saying that the pool of players wanting to join a Slow Run group will be lower than both the existing pool and the Fast Run pool. This would mean that there are fewer players to join those who want a Slow Run, making that queue take longer to find matches. It would also mean that those players who were joining for the XP only (ie they’re not really concerned which dungeons they run as they’ve probably run them all, they are just doing it for the rewards) would NEVER opt for the Slow Run.

So the unintended consequence is that both queues would probably take longer, but the Slow Run queue would take longer than the Fast Run queue. This trend would accelerate as those who weren’t bothered began to opt for the quicker-to-pop Fast Run, which would increase numbers and thus pop even faster. And the queues would indeed become Fast and Slow.

I totally appreciate the desire to do dungeons slowly, either to enjoy the story or to learn them. I think using the Guild Finder is a better, longer term solution.

Enjoy the game

Hello, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the misunderstanding on the first comment I see now what you mean