Please add a Dungeon Finder with no "kick-possibility"

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Before we start, I have to clarify that I'm not, nor I'm near to be, a "hardcore" player. I'm 100% certified casual . I'm not saying this to offend anyone or anything; I enjoy the game as it is and it's a choose of mine to not put a lot of dedication to it in order to complete harder contents. (Just to make it clear: the only 2 raids I did were Hel'ra Citadel and Aetherian Archive, both in normal mode and I was struggling with them, so please don't be harsh or anything lol)...

Now; let's get to the Topic of this discussion.
As a lot of people are already complaining about the Dungeon Finder and its many flaws, this gotta be changed, somehow. My idea about it is to add another Dungeon Queue, different from the main one but, with only one difference: there is not the option to kick people. I know, I know I know... it MAY sound stupid / useless, actually IT DOES sound stupid / useless but, think about it. How many times people that just want to HAVE FUN in this game - instead of being the best of the best - have been kicked from a Dungeon - sometimes even halfway through the end of it - because considered too "noob" by the elitist pug the queue put us with; and I'm not talking about veteran dungeons, because I totally gave up on those! . If you don't have a group to play with, they don't let you complete harder contents but, if you never do them because you get cut out by those people, how are you even supposed to get better at the game?
Yes, I know - "You could just get a premade group"; I'm gonna answer this question asap; forming a premade group is not what the Dungeon Finder is for? If you have to get a premade group everytime then what's the sense of having a dungeon finder? Let's just delete it at this point XD. I don't really understand why there isn't a proper matchmaking in this game!
Now, you may ask, "What's the point of having it if you can still get people that wanna complete the dungeon as fast as possible anyway?" - well, that's their own problem to be honest! Imagine it like this: people that want to complete dungeons fast will still go with the normal Dungeon Finder, so if they find a "noob" they still have the possibility to kick them or whatever, really. Meanwhile, people who just want to have fun and don't really care about the time spent on those dungeons, but just want to understand what the dungeon is about instead of rushing everything because of random people, then will go with this new dungeon finder without the FEAR of being kicked, wasting just a LOT of time!

Let me know what you guys think about this; every thoughts will be well-accepted

In before tho: please don't reply with things such as "just L2P", "git gud" or similar, they don't help at all the discussion and will be deleted by ZoS anyway (in case they read this post), so it's just a waste of time both for me and for you!

P.S. I'm sorry if some parts aren't clear, but I'm not english native, so my grammar may be really bad

Tasear

There's guilds for it. In fact it's my guild's speciality.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Tasear wrote: »

There's guilds for it. In fact it's my guild's speciality.

I think I already cleared this thing out in the main post:
If you have to get a premade group everytime, what's the point of having a dungeon finder at all?
Also for people like me, that don't have many friends in game and the only guilds I'm in are social but, not 24/7 helpful, it's still a struggle to get full group.

DarkPicture

No, idea its completely useless because u got kick doesnt mean they need to create a special finder for situations like that. If u slacking and roleplaying at beginning of dung its normal reaction they will kick you. Dont be selfish and think about what other are feeling if someone who sing up for dung doesnt participate.

You dont want be kicked? Make a own group from friends/guilds - simple

robpr

People usually don't kick other people unless they are clearly not even trying. "I play for fun" sounds like lame excuse to be carried all the time, because majority of players play games for fun.

Don't stay behind. Use all your skills from the bar instead of just light attacking that one mob for a minute. Your fun and everyone else's will increase and nobody will have reason to kick you.

Chrysa1is

This is a tough one.

In my opinion, if people are going for the challenges in Vet Dungeons, then they need able hands and experienced players to maximise their chances of success. Which is fair and understandable.

Random dungeon finders definitely come with the risk of being kicked. It's either so they can invite their friends at the end for the loot, because they're elitists, or for no reason at all. Either way, they're apes for doing it.

It's way better to teach inexperienced players the mechanics because when you've been struggling for some time (because of said inexperienced player(s) ) and you finally succeed, it is the most rewarding thing for you and the people you were teaching and thats what forms that guild family bond. Whats the rush? As long as you complete the dungeon eh? Let people enjoy it, let them learn their playstyle, their strengths and weaknesses. They won't if you don't help them and/or give them a chance.

I don't think there should be a no-kick dungeon finder, because the obvious solution to that is to just play with guild mates or friends. Maybe implement a reason for kick so that players can be aware of what areas need improving. Might do more harm than good though...maybe...

Play nice in dungeons guys!

Grandesdar

Out of 1000s of times I used dungeon finder, I got(with a premade friend of mine) got kicked once, because I was the tank and fed up with the fake healer DD, not doing either, and told them off. My friend thought the kick voting was for that guy, accepted it without reading it, and then the two kicked him, too, right after me. It was hilarious as I was helping my friend to farm the monster helm and he ended up kicking me unintentionally and never finishing the dungeon himself.

How would we get such interactions if we have no-kick finders? Also, I don't think many people would queue for that one. Mostly leechers would.

Elwendryll

I own a guild. I have very good people in it. Half of them met through group finder.
I only kick based on the attitude (And I think I only kicked one person in 4 years). If someone wants to take it slowly and they ask, I take it slowly. If someone wants to try the HM of a vet DLC dungeon, we try.

Group Finder is a very nice tool and you find very talented and nice people here, most of the time just ask. Sometimes it's not enough, and if you get kicked, it means you would have trouble completing the dungeon anyway. Not necessarily because of you, but the group as a whole.

As an example, yesterday I was playing on my healer and a Tank from my guild. 2 DDs from the finder on veteran Imperial City prison. It was impossible to get the HM.

In that case the only solution was to get better dps or give up on HM. So I could either kick someone or relog on my DD, which I did. They didn't deserve to get kicked as they did their best, it was just not enough. First time for both of them, and their combined dps was less than what I did with my main. If you use group finder you have to accept whatever you'll get.

People who kick other people would just leave the queue in a non-kick queue. It's not about you, it's about them. Especially when you stated you don't play veteran dungeons. If you get kicked that's because they aren't good enough.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Browart wrote: »

No, idea its completely useless because u got kick doesnt mean they need to create a special finder for situations like that. If u slacking and roleplaying at beginning of dung its normal reaction they will kick you. Dont be selfish and think about what other are feeling if someone who sing up for dung doesnt participate.

You dont want be kicked? Make a own group from friends/guilds - simple

I guess the way we feel must be reciprocal for both sides.
I don't think I'm the only one getting kicked in this game - oh God, I'm not saying I ALWAYS get kicked either, just the majority of time obviously :P.

The thing is that if you find just ONE dude rushing the whole dungeon - you obviously have to stay behind.
But that's not the reason I made this post for... When I don't encounter situations where people just rush - leaving me behind dying alone - I always stay with group and not slacking

Valenor

Kicking people in a normal dungeon shouldnt be a thing. It should be removed. They are easy enough to be completed without a dedicated healer or tank.

Tsar_Gekkou

Just don't be selfish and try to screw over the rest of the group, and you usually won't get kicked. If your roleplaying is constantly getting the group wiped or you're just wandering around counting floor tiles, then the needs of the group will outweigh the needs of the few and the weakest link will learn what the shape of Italy is.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Valenor wrote: »

Kicking people in a normal dungeon shouldnt be a thing. It should be removed. They are easy enough to be completed without a dedicated healer or tank.

I 100% agree with you
But even on veteran dungeons I think it should be somehow limited at least

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

Just don't be selfish and try to screw over the rest of the group, and you usually won't get kicked. If your roleplaying is constantly getting the group wiped or you're just wandering around counting floor tiles, then the needs of the group will outweigh the needs of the few and the weakest link will learn what the shape of Italy is.

Guys, I don't roleplay during Dungeons. I don't know why you saying so nor I understand what the roleplay has to do with a dungeon XD

Valenor

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

Valenor wrote: »

Kicking people in a normal dungeon shouldnt be a thing. It should be removed. They are easy enough to be completed without a dedicated healer or tank.

I 100% agree with you
But even on veteran dungeons I think it should be somehow limited at least

Locking the kick option for 15 minutes might be a start.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Elwendryll wrote: »

I own a guild. I have very good people in it. Half of them met through group finder.
I only kick based on the attitude (And I think I only kicked one person in 4 years). If someone wants to take it slowly and they ask, I take it slowly. If someone wants to try the HM of a vet DLC dungeon, we try.

Group Finder is a very nice tool and you find very talented and nice people here, most of the time just ask. Sometimes it's not enough, and if you get kicked, it means you would have trouble completing the dungeon anyway. Not necessarily because of you, but the group as a whole.

As an example, yesterday I was playing on my healer and a Tank from my guild. 2 DDs from the finder on veteran Imperial City prison. It was impossible to get the HM.

In that case the only solution was to get better dps or give up on HM. So I could either kick someone or relog on my DD, which I did. They didn't deserve to get kicked as they did their best, it was just not enough. First time for both of them, and their combined dps was less than what I did with my main. If you use group finder you have to accept whatever you'll get.

People who kick other people would just leave the queue in a non-kick queue. It's not about you, it's about them. Especially when you stated you don't play veteran dungeons. If you get kicked that's because they aren't good enough.

Yeah...
the problem tho is that you don't always find people willing to get slower at it, teaching you how to complete it and such, even if you ask it

It's all about luck I guess xD

FierceSam

Totally agree that people should be able to do dungeons without being kicked. However, this is the wrong way to deal with it. The unintended consequences will ensure it has exactly the opposite effect to the one OP wanted.

The point of the group finder is to find players who don’t have a group additional group members.

In addition to its many flaws, it also has to accommodate the fact that at any 1 time there aren’t a huge number of people wanting to use it, that the vast majority of these players are DDs and that none of us wants to wait for more than an instant.

The group finder incentivises players to join by offering them a reward for playing a random dungeon. This creates the view that it’s OK for them to rush through it as fast as possible to collect their reward. They’re not focussed on the specific dungeon, they don’t have any investment in the group and they’re simply trying to get as much XP from their time as possible (all of which is totally understandable btw).

Further segmenting the queue into Fast/Slow runs would be massively disadvantageous to the slow runners. They would never be grouped with the fast runners and would have even longer queue times. Speed runners would welcome it because it would eliminate any pretence that they were doing anything other than speeding through a dungeon to collect their reward.

Those who wanted to go slow would, indeed, have that experience. Their queue would take longer to pop.

As people have already said, the best way to accomplish the OP’s aim (being able to do dungeons slowly without worrying about being kicked) is to form your own group outside the group finder. Guilds are a good way to create pools of players for this and hopefully the new Guild Finder will prove to be a great tool to do this.

TL:DR Guild Finder is a better long term solution to this. Also, PUGs are PUGs, you shouldn’t be kicking people from them.

LartenCrepsley

i have been playing on and off for around 2-3 years. the only times i ever got kicked from dungeons was back when i was pre 160 cp - around 200 cp and quing for recent vet dlc dungeons. which in all honesty at those cp you shouldnt be quing for vet dungeons prior to 160cp, let alone vet dlc dungeon...

many new players may not know this, i myself didnt know this at the time, but this is the most likely reason why your being kicked

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Chrysa1is wrote: »

This is a tough one.

In my opinion, if people are going for the challenges in Vet Dungeons, then they need able hands and experienced players to maximise their chances of success. Which is fair and understandable.

Random dungeon finders definitely come with the risk of being kicked. It's either so they can invite their friends at the end for the loot, because they're elitists, or for no reason at all. Either way, they're apes for doing it.

It's way better to teach inexperienced players the mechanics because when you've been struggling for some time (because of said inexperienced player(s) ) and you finally succeed, it is the most rewarding thing for you and the people you were teaching and thats what forms that guild family bond. Whats the rush? As long as you complete the dungeon eh? Let people enjoy it, let them learn their playstyle, their strengths and weaknesses. They won't if you don't help them and/or give them a chance.

I don't think there should be a no-kick dungeon finder, because the obvious solution to that is to just play with guild mates or friends. Maybe implement a reason for kick so that players can be aware of what areas need improving. Could do more harm than good to be honest.

Play nice in dungeons guys!

The kick feedback is actually a really nice idea. Obviously, you'd still get kicked, but at least it'll somehow help you out to get better at this game!

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

Just don't be selfish and try to screw over the rest of the group, and you usually won't get kicked. If your roleplaying is constantly getting the group wiped or you're just wandering around counting floor tiles, then the needs of the group will outweigh the needs of the few and the weakest link will learn what the shape of Italy is.

Sooooo basically what you’re saying is that the devs shouldn’t bother adding stories to the dungeons anymore? Cool.

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

Tasear

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

There's guilds for it. In fact it's my guild's speciality.

I think I already cleared this thing out in the main post:
If you have to get a premade group everytime, what's the point of having a dungeon finder at all?
Also for people like me, that don't have many friends in game and the only guilds I'm in are social but, not 24/7 helpful, it's still a struggle to get full group.

Most people don't kick others but walk away from situation. I have been kicked once in 3 in half years using random group finder hundreds of times. It was during my time leveling my Templar healer.

Most of the time people are kicked I find for bad attitude, or the content really really can't competed with you even given time.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

FierceSam wrote: »

Totally agree that people should be able to do dungeons without being kicked. However, this is the wrong way to deal with it. The unintended consequences will ensure it has exactly the opposite effect to the one OP wanted.

The point of the group finder is to find players who don’t have a group additional group members.

In addition to its many flaws, it also has to accommodate the fact that at any 1 time there aren’t a huge number of people wanting to use it, that the vast majority of these players are DDs and that none of us wants to wait for more than an instant.

The group finder incentivises players to join by offering them a reward for playing a random dungeon. This creates the view that it’s OK for them to rush through it as fast as possible to collect their reward. They’re not focussed on the specific dungeon, they don’t have any investment in the group and they’re simply trying to get as much XP from their time as possible (all of which is totally understandable btw).

Further segmenting the queue into Fast/Slow runs would be massively disadvantageous to the slow runners. They would never be grouped with the fast runners and would have even longer queue times. Speed runners would welcome it because it would eliminate any pretence that they were doing anything other than speeding through a dungeon to collect their reward.

Those who wanted to go slow would, indeed, have that experience. Their queue would take longer to pop.

As people have already said, the best way to accomplish the OP’s aim (being able to do dungeons slowly without worrying about being kicked) is to form your own group outside the group finder. Guilds are a good way to create pools of players for this and hopefully the new Guild Finder will prove to be a great tool to do this.

TL:DR Guild Finder is a better long term solution to this. Also, PUGs are PUGs, you shouldn’t be kicking people from them.

I don't know, obviously the main queue will still get slower but, I don't think it necessarily mean the new dungeon finder will be slooooooooow af.

Maybe they could try to put it as a "test" (as they said they did with skyshards in crown store) and if not so many people use the new finder, just remove it.

I'm not a programmer nor a developer so doing this could be harder than I think; just an idea tho.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't remember a single kick of newbie or low-dps player outside of DLC vets. But of course a lot of jerks like fake tanks, trolls, forward runners were kicked. I don't imply anything, OP, but maybe you show some unusual behavior irritating your group? For example running forward and starting a fight, so group can't enter door while you are in combat, etc? Dying in aoe from same mechanic 12 times in a row? Using ice staff and heavy attacking mobs with it?

As I said, I'm not anywhere good at the game so yeah obviously I'm doing something wrong to make people triggered. Maybe low DPS, maybe bad tanking; I don't know

But I think clarifying what I'm doing wrong in that situation would be much much much more useful than just kicking me without even saying anything

pattyLtd

The problem with adding filters tot he group finder is that it will most likely quickly render them useless, As in never finding a group. So then more options do in fact make it worse i am affraid.

I only queue for random with my bf so kicking is not a problem but for vet dlc it has happened that one of isgot voted to be kicked. So now if its dlc dungeon that we havent completed before on veteran i simply write it in chat.

“Hi, might need bit help with mechanics here is that ok?” Or something like that. It helps.

But there are also just ***. Few weeks ago got yelled at and advised to delete the game because we fight the mobs in darkshade caverns 2 instead of rush passed them. I blocked those players hoping it makes it impossible to ever have to deal with their entitled asses in their superugly trial skins.

MattT1988

A couple of the reasons why the kick feature is essential is because it helps stop people from:
• Queuing into the dungeon and just sitting at the start not doing anything expecting people just to complete most of the dungeon or the entire dungeon without them
• Queuing for a role you have no intention of doing, (a dps queuing as a tank and not putting a taunt on).

The kicking feature is essential.

Browiseth

you have to remember that other people want to "just have fun" in this game, and carrying someone through content who can't fufill the role they're promising isn't fun for a lot of people.

just because you're bad at the game doesn't mean you can use the excuse "i only play for fun!" everyone plays for fun.

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

MattT1988 wrote: »

A couple of the reasons why the kick feature is essential is because it helps stop people from:
• Queuing into the dungeon and just sitting at the start not doing anything expecting people just to complete most of the dungeon or the entire dungeon without them
• Queuing for a role you have no intention of doing, (a dps queuing as a tank and not putting a taunt on).

The kicking feature is essential.

Maybe they could add like an afk kick for dungeons - and some requirements to join a dungeon with certain role (ie. if you choose tank you gotta have 25k HP and a taunt - maybe they could even lock the taunt skill and the gear, so they can't change it once they entered the dungeon. As a healer and as a tank you don't really need to swap gears anyway, just an idea tho, obviously)

Bealeb319

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

There's guilds for it. In fact it's my guild's speciality.

I think I already cleared this thing out in the main post:
If you have to get a premade group everytime, what's the point of having a dungeon finder at all?
Also for people like me, that don't have many friends in game and the only guilds I'm in are social but, not 24/7 helpful, it's still a struggle to get full group.

Dungeon finder is for people who don't have guilds or friends so they can play dungeons too...

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

pattyLtd wrote: »

The problem with adding filters tot he group finder is that it will most likely quickly render them useless, As in never finding a group. So then more options do in fact make it worse i am affraid.

I only queue for random with my bf so kicking is not a problem but for vet dlc it has happened that one of isgot voted to be kicked. So now if its dlc dungeon that we havent completed before on veteran i simply write it in chat.

“Hi, might need bit help with mechanics here is that ok?” Or something like that. It helps.

But there are also just ***. Few weeks ago got yelled at and advised to delete the game because we fight the mobs in darkshade caverns 2 instead of rush passed them. I blocked those players hoping it makes it impossible to ever have to deal with their entitled asses in their superugly trial skins.

Yeah, asking is nice and some people are willing to help.
The problem is those *** you're talking about x)

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Bealeb319 wrote: »

KobaSSTheSlumpGod wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

There's guilds for it. In fact it's my guild's speciality.

I think I already cleared this thing out in the main post:
If you have to get a premade group everytime, what's the point of having a dungeon finder at all?
Also for people like me, that don't have many friends in game and the only guilds I'm in are social but, not 24/7 helpful, it's still a struggle to get full group.

Dungeon finder is for people who don't have guilds or friends so they can play dungeons too...

This is literally what my comment was about

KobaSSTheSlumpGod

Browiseth wrote: »

you have to remember that other people want to "just have fun" in this game, and carrying someone through content who can't fufill the role they're promising isn't fun for a lot of people.

just because you're bad at the game doesn't mean you can use the excuse "i only play for fun!" everyone plays for fun.

"Have fun" such as not rushing

I know the "have fun" matter can be just an excuse and all, but at the same time you can't justify those who have fun by rushing dungeons and not justify those who have fun by NOT rushing it

It's not about carrying at all