Incap counter?

darkblue5

Yeah that is a more reasonable approximation but I don't think it covers how meh or how OP the silence would be in BGs. If you're solo attacking a mag dps character with the Incap they can still be healed and you can still be pressured by other characters.

Coordinating it so that the BG healer is silenced with a burst on the group would be way stronger and pretty unbalanced. I'd be more afraid of that in BGs tbh. Ultis when solo queuing BGs already often secure a kill and Silence ultra-securing the kill on mag enemies and meh securing the kill on stam enemies isn't incredibly out of line. I mean it is fairly out of line but not as out of line as making a healer unable to counter a burst.

Thankfully again none of these scenarios will hit live.

Minno

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Don't even try to think of one. They'll read one they like and keep it, no matter how awful the skill.

agreed, dont give them any ideas. Let them figure this out for themselves because that is how youll get necro buffed to include the incap counter to increase sales lol.

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

I proposed rebuff shield time to 15-20 seconds. Tbh if you are a mag character in PvP and don’t have 13k+ stam you’re doing something wrong or a glass cannon build. 3 seconds is literally nothing with the high resistances currently in the game. I know on my magblade I have full protective jewelry and don’t foresee being “instagibbed” because of some 3s silence. Counters : roll hots, shield, roll dodge, block. It’s 3s! Negate tanks were group silencing + rooting + streaking then rooting again lol I don’t understand the outcry over a single target 3s silence it’s hilarious.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Minno

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

I proposed rebuff shield time to 15-20 seconds. Tbh if you are a mag character in PvP and don’t have 13k+ stam you’re doing something wrong or a glass cannon build. 3 seconds is literally nothing with the high resistances currently in the game. I know on my magblade I have full protective jewelry and don’t foresee being “instagibbed” because of some 3s silence. Counters : roll hots, shield, roll dodge, block. It’s 3s! Negate tanks were group silencing + rooting + streaking then rooting again lol I don’t understand the outcry over a single target 3s silence it’s hilarious.

I wonder if it will remove your hots/shield/AOEs like negate silence does lol. Need to test this.

darkblue5

Minno wrote: »

HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »

I proposed rebuff shield time to 15-20 seconds. Tbh if you are a mag character in PvP and don’t have 13k+ stam you’re doing something wrong or a glass cannon build. 3 seconds is literally nothing with the high resistances currently in the game. I know on my magblade I have full protective jewelry and don’t foresee being “instagibbed” because of some 3s silence. Counters : roll hots, shield, roll dodge, block. It’s 3s! Negate tanks were group silencing + rooting + streaking then rooting again lol I don’t understand the outcry over a single target 3s silence it’s hilarious.

I wonder if it will remove your hots/shield/AOEs like negate silence does lol. Need to test this.

Since it isn't going live do you need to?

Joy_Division

Feanor wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I have 3 questions.

Who asked for this ?

Did ZOS asked the opinion of class reps ?

What's wrong with the current incap ?

1. Nobody?
2. Apparently they were as surprised as the rest when 5.0.3 hit the PTS.
3. The PTS change from Major Defile to Minor Mangle led to a lot of NB complaints stating the debuff is niche.

This is correct

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

Waffennacht

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

darkblue5

Waffennacht wrote: »

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

Just the pretty clear promise that it was "being looked into" but given the breadth and depth of the uproar I can't imagine it going live. I can't think of any counterplay being added that result in Incap being a skill people would use over DBoS though that's partially because DBoS is overtuned itself.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Heyo Gang!

We have been reading your feedback about the changes to Incapacitating Strike and are investigating counter-play options for the Silence that's been added to this ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6036788#Comment_6036788

darkblue5

Like any break free counterplay turns it into a wacky 120 ulti cost Total Dark that isn't buggily invisible and does nothing to stam dps. Shortening the duration would make it not worth playing solo, still make it too much on healers sometimes, and leave it in a wacky spot. Giving a synergy to remove it or something would be terrible in lag and make the skill useless without lag. I can't think of a balanced counterplay that keeps the pretty situational 120 ulti cost worth using.

I do like the way that it does give stamblades something interesting to do that is powerful in and against small groups but it won't survive in a usable sense. If it does I'll have to eat my hat or something equally cliche.

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Minno

darkblue5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

Just the pretty clear promise that it was "being looked into" but given the breadth and depth of the uproar I can't imagine it going live. I can't think of any counterplay being added that result in Incap being a skill people would use over DBoS though that's partially because DBoS is overtuned itself.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Heyo Gang!

We have been reading your feedback about the changes to Incapacitating Strike and are investigating counter-play options for the Silence that's been added to this ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6036788#Comment_6036788

It's staying because they said CoUntERpLaY

Dojohoda

I'm interested to read about how this will actually work. Based on the many comments by forum members, being incapped as a magicka character is certain death. I'm very interested in seeing the counter play options.

Speaking of the previous version being niche-- If silence only affects magicka toons, will a nightblade use incap on a stam character? A skill that is only "good" against one of two subsets (mag/stam) seems niche. With silence, instead of stun, why should incap be used against a stam player? I suppose that all current variants of silence are niche, so this is likely a moot train of thought.

Bottom line- Silence being added to incap is interesting and causing quite a stir (with good reason). I'm interested in seeing how this plays out - in seeing what sort of counters might be made available.

darkblue5

Minno wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

Just the pretty clear promise that it was "being looked into" but given the breadth and depth of the uproar I can't imagine it going live. I can't think of any counterplay being added that result in Incap being a skill people would use over DBoS though that's partially because DBoS is overtuned itself.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Heyo Gang!

We have been reading your feedback about the changes to Incapacitating Strike and are investigating counter-play options for the Silence that's been added to this ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6036788#Comment_6036788

It's staying because they said CoUntERpLaY

It won't be worth slotting if it has any sane counterplay given how niche it is. At 120 and stun Incap wouldn't be worth slotting and that's taking Minor Mangle off which made Incap even worse. To be fair that's in part because the other stamina ulti options are too good.

But if it is already niche and does nothing to even a strong minority of opponents from the get go (not how it is on live with stam being so strong), and there's some workable counterplay? Not worth slotting.

Waffennacht

darkblue5 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

Just the pretty clear promise that it was "being looked into" but given the breadth and depth of the uproar I can't imagine it going live. I can't think of any counterplay being added that result in Incap being a skill people would use over DBoS though that's partially because DBoS is overtuned itself.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Heyo Gang!

We have been reading your feedback about the changes to Incapacitating Strike and are investigating counter-play options for the Silence that's been added to this ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6036788#Comment_6036788

It's staying because they said CoUntERpLaY

It won't be worth slotting if it has any sane counterplay given how niche it is. At 120 and stun Incap wouldn't be worth slotting and that's taking Minor Mangle off which made Incap even worse. To be fair that's in part because the other stamina ulti options are too good.

But if it is already niche and does nothing to even a strong minority of opponents from the get go (not how it is on live with stam being so strong), and there's some workable counterplay? Not worth slotting.

I said something in a different post; but it was: if the silence is CC breakable it's a rather big Nerf and makes it stupid, if the silence can't be broken it's OP and stupid.

It's in a bad spot. I'd much rather the original version to this, (worthless or OP), I don't know how you have counter play and not make it stupid.

I'd even prefer heal negate to this (but ironically I feel necro wants that...)

I just don't like this at all.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

darkblue5

Waffennacht wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@darkblue5 what info do you have? Last I heard it was "being looked into" which I agree does usually mean it's gonna be something else. But have you heard anything more?

Just the pretty clear promise that it was "being looked into" but given the breadth and depth of the uproar I can't imagine it going live. I can't think of any counterplay being added that result in Incap being a skill people would use over DBoS though that's partially because DBoS is overtuned itself.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Heyo Gang!

We have been reading your feedback about the changes to Incapacitating Strike and are investigating counter-play options for the Silence that's been added to this ability.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6036788#Comment_6036788

It's staying because they said CoUntERpLaY

It won't be worth slotting if it has any sane counterplay given how niche it is. At 120 and stun Incap wouldn't be worth slotting and that's taking Minor Mangle off which made Incap even worse. To be fair that's in part because the other stamina ulti options are too good.

But if it is already niche and does nothing to even a strong minority of opponents from the get go (not how it is on live with stam being so strong), and there's some workable counterplay? Not worth slotting.

I said something in a different post; but it was: if the silence is CC breakable it's a rather big Nerf and makes it stupid, if the silence can't be broken it's OP and stupid.

It's in a bad spot. I'd much rather the original version to this, (worthless or OP), I don't know how you have counter play and not make it stupid.

I'd even prefer heal negate to this (but ironically I feel necro wants that...)

I just don't like this at all.

I totally agree. Even my healing reduction idea of shutting off only healing from others probably wouldn't be worth slotting most of the time. Just a funny counter to dedicated healbot try hards.
I don't think there is a way to make Incap slottable without making it need nerfs just because the generic options are already a bit too strong. When magbuilds are running DBoS you know it is a bit strong.

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

This has to be a joke.

Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?

Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol

Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.

Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.

But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

This has to be a joke.

Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?

Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol

Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.

Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.

But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.

If years of in game evidence of people shifting towards to meta isn't enough to convince you that stamblades are going to be running the most optimized setup in PVP, then what are you even doing bothering with this argument.

Why do players run Dawnbreaker, Shalks, and Spin2Win on stamdens? because it is one of the strongest combos on live right now. Why did sorcs run Meteor, Rune Cage, Curse and Fury? Because it was one of the strongest combos and people gravitate to the optimal setups.

Why do I think stamblades would run that skill combo if this change goes live? Because they would be stupid not to.

I mean, you even see it on live right now with Pet Sorcs. Why is everyone and their mother's running it? Because it is strong and they would be stupid not to.

Royalthought

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

This has to be a joke.

Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?

Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol

Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.

Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.

But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.

If years of in game evidence of people shifting towards to meta isn't enough to convince you that stamblades are going to be running the most optimized setup in PVP, then what are you even doing bothering with this argument.

Why do players run Dawnbreaker, Shalks, and Spin2Win on stamdens? because it is one of the strongest combos on live right now. Why did sorcs run Meteor, Rune Cage, Curse and Fury? Because it was one of the strongest combos and people gravitate to the optimal setups.

Why do I think stamblades would run that skill combo if this change goes live? Because they would be stupid not to.

I mean, you even see it on live right now with Pet Sorcs. Why is everyone and their mother's running it? Because it is strong and they would be stupid not to.

Ive never cared what other people do. I play what I enjoy regardless. In fact, if its ugly, i wont care how good it is. lol

But you said I claimed all builds need to run something.

Yet here you are calling people who dont use what you call meta, stupid...

Let that sink in.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

This has to be a joke.

Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?

Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol

Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.

Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.

But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.

If years of in game evidence of people shifting towards to meta isn't enough to convince you that stamblades are going to be running the most optimized setup in PVP, then what are you even doing bothering with this argument.

Why do players run Dawnbreaker, Shalks, and Spin2Win on stamdens? because it is one of the strongest combos on live right now. Why did sorcs run Meteor, Rune Cage, Curse and Fury? Because it was one of the strongest combos and people gravitate to the optimal setups.

Why do I think stamblades would run that skill combo if this change goes live? Because they would be stupid not to.

I mean, you even see it on live right now with Pet Sorcs. Why is everyone and their mother's running it? Because it is strong and they would be stupid not to.

Ive never cared what other people do. I play what I enjoy regardless. In fact, if its ugly, i wont care how good it is. lol

But you said I claimed all builds need to run something.

Yet here you are calling people who dont use what you call meta, stupid...

Let that sink in.

I don't run meta builds, and I am stupid for it. And other than the Rune Cage sorc, Current meta builds have counterplay.

The counterplay you suggest in this thread is that mag players running specific tank oriented weapons will be fine. Great, that sounds like it is forcing all mag players to run specific setups to survive. Sounds like a great and healthy change for this game.

killimandrosb16_ESO

noone mentioned the cyrodiil lag yet? 3 sec silence? You can hope. Make it anywhere between 5-10 secs. Ciao.

jaws343

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

brandonv516 wrote: »

@Royalthought

Do you even PvP? You look like a fool with every response lol. Keep em coming.

Insults are a sign of intelligence....

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.

It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...

Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.

If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.

But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.

Lastly, silence is already in game.

It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.

Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.

If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.

Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.

On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.

But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.

Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.

Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."

You Said:

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.

The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k

Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.

You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats

Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)

If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam

- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs

This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.

Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.

Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?

Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.

If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.

Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.

Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.

OK, let's look at blocking as an option:

Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)

Mag Char: Block

Nightblade: Fear

Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced

Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Still Feared

Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)

Mag Char: Dead

So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...

And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.

This is player error.

If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?

Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.

Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?

Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.

What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?

Of course there is

My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.

And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.

And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.

Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.

The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.

Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol

If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.

Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?

Short answer: No.

1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.

The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.

They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.

Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.

I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.

Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.

You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.

Yet again youre going in the same circle.


"Not once did I put words in your mouth.

I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""

Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol

Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.

Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.

Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.

The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.

Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.

Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.

Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.

And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.

This has to be a joke.

Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?

Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol

Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.

Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.

But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.

If years of in game evidence of people shifting towards to meta isn't enough to convince you that stamblades are going to be running the most optimized setup in PVP, then what are you even doing bothering with this argument.

Why do players run Dawnbreaker, Shalks, and Spin2Win on stamdens? because it is one of the strongest combos on live right now. Why did sorcs run Meteor, Rune Cage, Curse and Fury? Because it was one of the strongest combos and people gravitate to the optimal setups.

Why do I think stamblades would run that skill combo if this change goes live? Because they would be stupid not to.

I mean, you even see it on live right now with Pet Sorcs. Why is everyone and their mother's running it? Because it is strong and they would be stupid not to.

Ive never cared what other people do. I play what I enjoy regardless. In fact, if its ugly, i wont care how good it is. lol

But you said I claimed all builds need to run something.

Yet here you are calling people who dont use what you call meta, stupid...

Let that sink in.

There's also a difference between choosing a suboptimal setup but still being viable and being entirely forced to run very specific weapons and skills in order to even survive.

Running the meta is one thing. And most people gravitate towards that. Having no other options but to run a specific setup is not good game design. Period.

D0PAMINE

@Waffennacht What about infused staff like resto with an absorb health glyph. Maybe with like a 5 piece Torugs.