Incap counter?
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Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.
The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k
Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.
You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats
Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)
If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam
- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs
This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.
Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.
Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?
Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.
If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.
Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.
Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.
OK, let's look at blocking as an option:
Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Fear
Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced
Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Still Feared
Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Dead
So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...
And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.
This is player error.
If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?
Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.
Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?
Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.
What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?
Of course there is
My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.
And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.
And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.
Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.
The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.
Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol
If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.
Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?
Short answer: No.
1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.
The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.
They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.
Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.
It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...
Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.
If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.
But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.
Lastly, silence is already in game.
It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.
Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.
If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.
Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.
On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.
But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.
Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.
Not once did I put words in your mouth.
I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."
You Said:Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.
The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k
Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.
You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats
Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)
If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam
- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs
This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.
Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.
Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?
Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.
If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.
Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.
Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.
OK, let's look at blocking as an option:
Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Fear
Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced
Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Still Feared
Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Dead
So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...
And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.
This is player error.
If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?
Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.
Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?
Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.
What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?
Of course there is
My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.
And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.
And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.
Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.
The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.
Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol
If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.
Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?
Short answer: No.
1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.
The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.
They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.
Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.
I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.
Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.
You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.brandonv516 wrote: »
Insults are a sign of intelligence....Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.
The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k
Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.
You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats
Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)
If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam
- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs
This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.
Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.
Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?
Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.
If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.
Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.
Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.
OK, let's look at blocking as an option:
Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Fear
Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced
Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Still Feared
Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Dead
So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...
And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.
This is player error.
If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?
Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.
Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?
Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.
What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?
Of course there is
My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.
And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.
And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.
Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.
The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.
Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol
If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.
Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?
Short answer: No.
1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.
The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.
They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.
Yes, cause talking about skills in a vacuum is how you balance them. You have to talk about all of those things, because they are all going to land on you and you are going to have zero counterplay to them as a result of the Silence.
It's funny, because when everyone wanted to nerf Rune Cage, they all kept saying that sorcs have a ton of burst potential and meteor could land alongside all of the other skills, and people would die without counterplay. But, when we get to this ridiculous silence on Incap, we can't talk about the skills interaction with rest of the nightblade toolkit for some reason. But Mag Sorc's were getting discussed as OP with Rune Cage based off of Meteor, a non class ultimate...
Now not only are you making up scenarios, you just pulled a completely seperate topic that I played no role in out of a hat.
If youre not discussing whats been said, fine. Youre free to do as you choose.
But if youre responding to me dont invent your own ideas to respond to.
Lastly, silence is already in game.
It doesn't really matter if you were a part of that convo and I don't really care if you were or not. What matters is that was the context of that change a year ago, and we are discussing a similar change that needs context to discuss properly. You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok. You are wrong. And no-one is inventing ideas, we just aren't ignoring the overpowered situations an incap with silence provides. Like everyone defending it is doing.
Youre now putting words in my mouth. Quote me. Dont speak for me.
If you dont care that I wasnt part then, no need to care now. Taking thing out of context to slant towards a biased is whats being pointed out.
Every single Aoe, stamina drain, roll dodge scenario you came up with can be applied to silence in general.
On live I can rending slash, spin to win while having a fellow mag dk cc AND immobilize meanwhile landing a negate.
But none of that makes negate OP. But according to your stance it does.
Bottom line is you can block and roll dodge while silenced. Aoes ignoring roll dodge do NOT change that.
Not once did I put words in your mouth.
I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok."
You Said:Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »@Tommy_The_Gun you haven't considered BGs.
The base cost of roll dodge is approx 3500 Stam. With 5 well fitted that goes to approx 2.6k
Your base Stam is 9k. You can get to 11k without sacrificing too much. CC break is approx 5.5k.
You can CC break 1 time and dodge roll twice if you invest x5 well fitted (meaning impreg or you're insane) and food + a few tri- stats
Now you're outta Stam - this is NOT including Stam cost increase poisons (btw Well fitted has 0 effect on)
If Stam cost increase poisons are in play (and in BGs they are) - because poisons do not include well-fitted - one roll dodge costs 3.7k Stam for your first roll. If you have to CC break because of say fear - you're outta Stam
- this is after building for it on a mag toon - giving up an armor set, food, and glyphs
This is not a viable plan in No CP BGs; I've already done all the tests for such a thing.
Edit: this is also assuming 1v1, any - and I mean any additional damage prior to the incap will mean absolute death as a few seconds of non-counters means any AoE etc kills you.
Who decided we are limiting our response to back to back roll dodges?
Blocking is also an option. Its 3 seconds.
If they use a gcd for fear, they have even less time than 3 seconds to do damage.
Unless we are refering to glass canon magic builds, surviving 1 roll dodge/break free and blocking 1 maybe 2 attacks is quite feasible.
Roll dodging 3 times back to back would be a player error imo.
OK, let's look at blocking as an option:
Nightblade: Incap 10K crit damage or higher after cloak
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Power Extraction + damage after incap ~ 1k-2k damage through block (Now the nightblade has major brutality)
Mag Char: Block
Nightblade: Fear
Mag Char: Out of Stamina for Break Free, but hey, no longer silenced
Nightblade: Power Extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Still Feared
Nightblade: Power extraction ~5K-7K (probably higher if it crits)
Mag Char: Dead
So, in 6 seconds, the Nightblade gets off 5 skills, that do, at minimum, 24K damage and are able to stun through block, while the Mag Char gets off zero skills in that time. Blocking is such a great counterplay...
And if you swap the first power extraction for an immediate fear, you are doing even more damage up front. You may lose a second on the back end of the burst, but you may not need it.
This is player error.
If you get hit with a 10k incap, then block, get hit with power extraction followed by a fear, break free, why are you out of stamina?
Thats particular to your build. Not some rule.
Secondly, how are you still feared if you break free?
Your scenario is faultworthy. The silence is 3 seconds. You invented a 6 second scenario with other abilities amd factors to over embellish what silence does.
What happens if you get CCd in a negate? Is there no counterplay?
Of course there is
My scenario says you are out of stamina after blocking and are unable to break free. Which is the most likely scenario if you are attempting to block a stamblade burst followed by a stun on a mag character. Especially in noCP.
And if the stun is delayed with the 3 seconds of silence, you are taking 2 power extractions into your block. You are not going to have stam to break free. And if two people are attacking you, you are taking even more damage into your block and losing even more stamina. 3 seconds of silence followed by a stun that you now have no way to break out of is a death sentence for light armor builds, period.
And with Power Extraction doing nearly as much damage as surprise attack, or just using whirlwind, dodge rolling is just going to be a stamina burn and do nothing to mitigate damage on competent stamblades. So blocking and dying is the only option with a silence on a stamblade.
Youre complaining about CC and stamina as a resource. Youre complaing about AoEs ignoring dodge rolls.
The topic at hand is a 3 second silence.
Youve now added in power extraction, spin2win and a second opponent. Which ability are we discussing? lol
If you get negated and CC'd and attacked by a second player, your same build is out of stamina. If you dodge roll your same build is countered by spin2win.
Is negate now overpowered because you ran out of stamina and dodgerolled in an aoe while being attacked by a second player?
Short answer: No.
1 silences an area for 12 seconds. Creates group wipes.
The other silences 1 person for 3 seconds. Can create a single kill.
They both have counterplay. But this zerg campaign for nerfs is gonna mess around and get negate nerfed sadly.
Not once have I misrepresented your stance on this.
I brought other stamblade skills into this because a stamblade isn't going to just hit you with incap and then stand there and wait for the silence to end before hitting you again. They aren't going to not stun you through block and dodge roll and wait for the silence to end before hitting. Silence on a ground based skill that can be moved out of or avoided altogether is not an issue. Silence on a skill that can be delivered without being able to avoid it, that completely shuts down every single skill on a build, that comes from a build that can then stun you through block and deliver an undodgeable AOE spammable that does comparable damage to a single target spammable, is a problem. You have to address the skill with the rest of the toolkit in mind, period. That doesn't mean that I am saying AOE spam skills are overtuned, just that a class that has one that does that much damage should not also have a skill that completely shuts down counterplay to that damage.
Hence bringing the rune cage changes to this discussion. Rune cage was completely too strong. But not because of it standing on its own. Because it could be combined with other class skills to provide completely unavoidable burst damage. You know, the exact same situation that Silence will provide a stamblade.
You can dig your head into the sand and ignore the comparison, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow more knowledgable on the situation at hand.
Yet again youre going in the same circle.
"Not once did I put words in your mouth.
I said "You are trying to say that talking about incap within the context of other class skills is somehow not ok.""
Your first statement is "I said." YOU said. Not me. lol
Lastly, no class just sits there during silence. Not sorcs nor will nbs. That does nothing for your point.
Vs incap on a mag class, I can block for 3 seconds and go back to shields.
Vs a negate I actually have to dodge roll, especially if immobilized.
The interesting thing is how you apply every other skill to make it seem impossible to respond to incap while completely ignoring the fact that aoes, immobilizations, CC's can be used during a negate.
Ill ignore the fact the teammates can still heal, shield and attack if I get hit with incap. In group vs group if we get hit with negate, theyre in trouble too.
Bottom line is incap with silence will be strong vs skills. Builds that can block (back bar ice staff/Snb) will be fine. If your build is 100 to 0 in health and stamina within 3 seconds, thats your builds issue.
Oh, so now all mag builds need to run SnB or Frost staff to counter this. lol. Do you even hear yourself.
And again, it isn't just 3 seconds from a stamblade. It is 3 seconds, plus the added time from a fear. Fear goes through block. So you aren't even going to be able to block. Incap also gives a damage increase to every skill. Power Extraction also gives Major Brutality. No mag build is surviving the burst from a stamblade running Incap with Silence on it, unless that mag build is actually a tank.
This has to be a joke.
Youve been going on and on and on about how incap to fear to power extraction/spin2win leaves no counter... As if every nb blade runs it. Are you forcing them to run this?
Now because theres something that speaks against your belief that theres zero counter play, you claim its a suggestion to force builds on people..... Lol
Stop saying no mag build will survive. I wont argue that yours wont.
Incap will be strong against mag builds for 3 seconds.
But there are ways to respond better than dodgerolling 3 times if thats not what youre built for.
If years of in game evidence of people shifting towards to meta isn't enough to convince you that stamblades are going to be running the most optimized setup in PVP, then what are you even doing bothering with this argument.
Why do players run Dawnbreaker, Shalks, and Spin2Win on stamdens? because it is one of the strongest combos on live right now. Why did sorcs run Meteor, Rune Cage, Curse and Fury? Because it was one of the strongest combos and people gravitate to the optimal setups.
Why do I think stamblades would run that skill combo if this change goes live? Because they would be stupid not to.
I mean, you even see it on live right now with Pet Sorcs. Why is everyone and their mother's running it? Because it is strong and they would be stupid not to.
Ive never cared what other people do. I play what I enjoy regardless. In fact, if its ugly, i wont care how good it is. lol
But you said I claimed all builds need to run something.
Yet here you are calling people who dont use what you call meta, stupid...
Let that sink in.
I don't run meta builds, and I am stupid for it. And other than the Rune Cage sorc, Current meta builds have counterplay.
The counterplay you suggest in this thread is that mag players running specific tank oriented weapons will be fine. Great, that sounds like it is forcing all mag players to run specific setups to survive. Sounds like a great and healthy change for this game.
Ive said silence counters mag skills. It is formidable. When used at specific times itll be deadly.
But 3 seconds doesnt require tank oriented weapons. I suggested them because you said your build would be out of stam.
Simply giving options as opposed to buying into all mag builds being helpless.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have it from a very reputable source that you simply need to run 20k+ stamina on your mag build to dodgeroll the entire silence duration and be able to break free of the following fear, this of course is a very achievable solution for every mag build and you will not loose too much damage, healing or main stat for this.
(Said very reputable source is a stamblade with a vendetta against magsorcs for being evil and does not believe that your main resource being disabled for 3 seconds is a problem)Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭i think the change could be good. devs are nerfing nb burst via removal of fracture, berserk, and major defile.
not sure this will really gimp the front load 1shot potential of nb's but it certainly doesn't hurt that cause.
In structured pvp, nb's have been pretty non-existent at the higher end of organized play. with the prevalence of AOE, healbots, and more efficient brawler damage specs from other classes, the nb has been largely relegated to an irrelevant role of back-line sniper.
some manage ok, but nb in large part is considered at the bottom of the pecking order for structured play.
This silence introduces a new niche for the nb that could be extremely useful in small-scale structured pvp. namely - the ability to backline silence and coordinate an ult dump kill on enemy team healers or sorcs.
Others argue that it will kill the 1vX'er that likes to tank zergs in cyrodiil. i can see how this ability would hurt that endeavor. I also see alot of other abilities that also hurt that endeavor so i find the point somewhat moot.
imo - i could endorse this change but i do think the front load burst of nb does need a good nerf to justify such a powerful ability that now allows the nb to be a stategic and tactical assassin (instead of just a 1shot ganker).
if the change doesn't go live - w/e. nb hasn't been relevant in bg's for awhile now. even with this proposed change it may not vault the class into relevant status. i'd be interested to see.3 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NB has more presence than Templars.
I'm thinking about poor Templars here.
Sorc can actually use conversion and even build to nullify silence (say curse eater backbar + conversion, add some mobility, dealt with)
But Templar is sitting there.immobile AF going.... GG3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »NB has more presence than Templars.
I'm thinking about poor Templars here.
Sorc can actually use conversion and even build to nullify silence (say curse eater backbar + conversion, add some mobility, dealt with)
But Templar is sitting there.immobile AF going.... GG
It might be Sorcs are least affected. I don’t buy Conversion will save your butt though because the NB is already on top of you and Conversion can be interrupted. You’re not going to Streak away to create some distance or LoS for a safe cast.
Still, you’re correct about the rest. Templars, Warden and ironically NB are going to be sitting ducks if this goes live.
Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
HEBREWHAMMERRR✭✭✭✭✭i think the change could be good. devs are nerfing nb burst via removal of fracture, berserk, and major defile.
not sure this will really gimp the front load 1shot potential of nb's but it certainly doesn't hurt that cause.
In structured pvp, nb's have been pretty non-existent at the higher end of organized play. with the prevalence of AOE, healbots, and more efficient brawler damage specs from other classes, the nb has been largely relegated to an irrelevant role of back-line sniper.
some manage ok, but nb in large part is considered at the bottom of the pecking order for structured play.
This silence introduces a new niche for the nb that could be extremely useful in small-scale structured pvp. namely - the ability to backline silence and coordinate an ult dump kill on enemy team healers or sorcs.
Others argue that it will kill the 1vX'er that likes to tank zergs in cyrodiil. i can see how this ability would hurt that endeavor. I also see alot of other abilities that also hurt that endeavor so i find the point somewhat moot.
imo - i could endorse this change but i do think the front load burst of nb does need a good nerf to justify such a powerful ability that now allows the nb to be a stategic and tactical assassin (instead of just a 1shot ganker).
if the change doesn't go live - w/e. nb hasn't been relevant in bg's for awhile now. even with this proposed change it may not vault the class into relevant status. i'd be interested to see.
Been saying this in all threads almost verbatim. It’s not a big deal. Lol there is counterplay in shields/hots and the nightblade burst is going to be softer with the other nerfs. People are just whining for no real reason. This gives a good niche role for nightblade on back lines and switch focusing a healer which tbh heals are running rampant in group play.1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »Been saying this in all threads almost verbatim. It’s not a big deal. Lol there is counterplay in shields/hots and the nightblade burst is going to be softer with the other nerfs. People are just whining for no real reason. This gives a good niche role for nightblade on back lines and switch focusing a healer which tbh heals are running rampant in group play.
Which precast shield or hot is strong enough to survive 3 seconds of stamblade pressure again? Barrier? Resto ult? Remembrance? I find precasting ultimates just because there could be a stamblade anywhere close to where you are not that good counterplay, not too sure about you tho.
Lets go through some shields you can precast to apparently negate 3 seconds of stamblade pressure:
Igneous: Very good joke but not much more
Sun Shield: See above
Harness: Yeah I wish
Sorc shields: See above
Healing ward/Ward ally: way too short of a duration, shields for about nothing when precast on full health.
Shimmering: Doesnt work like that
Bone shield: Nice meme
Brawler Shield: See above
Magma Shell Shield: Would work I guess, its a 200 ult tho that requires a dk with enough health to stand next to you and cast it whenever either of you suspects a nightblade to be nearby.
Barrier: Could work I guess, its a 200 cost ult tho and not a spammable shield that you can simply precast if you suspect someone in stealth might be nearby.
Lets do the same for hots on a mag build:
Mutagen: Yeah nah, dont see that outhealing rending bleed, twin blade and blunt bleed, 2h bleed, and stamblade burst all of which gets increased by 20%, might purge the silence if it can get purged, but will in reality never do so because any non potato blade will put debuffs on you.
Precast healing springs: Yeah nah, wont outheal nightblades either.
Templar ritual: See above, no you cannot use the synergy while silenced by the way.
Power surge: See above, also good luck critting with only light attacks and nothing else because you cannot cast abilities.
siphoning strikes: See above.
Vigor: Good joke but not much more.
Rally: Very good joke but not much more.
Forward Momentum: Even better joke but not much more.
Remembrance: Might work assuming it doesnt get cancelled by a silence, its also an ultimate that you cant just precast whenever you suspect someone in stealth being nearby.
Resto ult: See above.
Nightblade lost barely any damage if you dont gank but aim to actually participate in fights and if you gank you can simply use expert hunter/slimecrawl to get the minor berserk with expert hunter you even get major savagery and fighters guild passives for free, there next to no damage lost no need to thank me.
If you think its no big deal go on the live server with a mag build and fight a stamblade while standing in a negate and dont leave the negate, then you can come back and tell us how this is no big deal.
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭would be nice if ultimates would be cast while silenced, they are basically not magicka abilities. This way you can use resto staff ult or Leap or whatever you want to use defensively.
but this would also hurt Negate ultimate. Maybe cleanse potions in the future when they may add or overhaul the alchemy ingredients?
-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭i think the change could be good. devs are nerfing nb burst via removal of fracture, berserk, and major defile.
not sure this will really gimp the front load 1shot potential of nb's but it certainly doesn't hurt that cause.
In structured pvp, nb's have been pretty non-existent at the higher end of organized play. with the prevalence of AOE, healbots, and more efficient brawler damage specs from other classes, the nb has been largely relegated to an irrelevant role of back-line sniper.
some manage ok, but nb in large part is considered at the bottom of the pecking order for structured play.
This silence introduces a new niche for the nb that could be extremely useful in small-scale structured pvp. namely - the ability to backline silence and coordinate an ult dump kill on enemy team healers or sorcs.
Others argue that it will kill the 1vX'er that likes to tank zergs in cyrodiil. i can see how this ability would hurt that endeavor. I also see alot of other abilities that also hurt that endeavor so i find the point somewhat moot.
imo - i could endorse this change but i do think the front load burst of nb does need a good nerf to justify such a powerful ability that now allows the nb to be a stategic and tactical assassin (instead of just a 1shot ganker).
if the change doesn't go live - w/e. nb hasn't been relevant in bg's for awhile now. even with this proposed change it may not vault the class into relevant status. i'd be interested to see.
Battlegrounds are very niche. And no nightblade is not a team based class, it never has been.1 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I actually run a Torug's Frost staff with that glyph on my back bar as another layer of Troll King proc security.@Waffennacht What about infused staff like resto with an absorb health glyph. Maybe with like a 5 piece Torugs.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you can't survive for those 3 seconds then you dont belong in pvp.
That's just silly.
Sure I can make a build that can easily survive silence for 3 seconds; that's not the point.
The point is, such an ability kills game diversity. If I need to have a reliable means of dealing with silence every BG, then why not simply run a Stam build? It incentives homogenization of PvP and that's just boring.
It's not about survivability, it's about a healthy environment5 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you can't survive for those 3 seconds then you dont belong in pvp.
Go ahead and survive on a stamina build without being allowed to use your stamina at all. You still can block with an ice staff and heal yourself with resto staff abilities afterall. You cant use the resto ult tho since ultimates are also silenced. Piece of cake right?
Its also not about just surviving those 3 seconds because if you actually do so you wont magically get your health and stamina completely restored and the stamblade wont just dissapear from the face of nirn either.
So how well can you survive in a regular mag build while fighting inside a negate for 3 seconds and if you do survive after 3 seconds in negate how well can you survive after that because dodging or blocking for 3 seconds straight is gonna cost a lot of stamina especially in a no cp enviroment since a regular mag build runs impen and no sturdy/well fitted or stam cost reduction glyphs.
2 dodgerolls with a following break free cost about 14.5k stam in no cp btw. If you make that 3 dodgerolls you can kiss your entire stam pool goodbye. If you just permablock you will still get damaged and still loose 1760 stam per blocked damage up to every 0.25 seconds or around 1k for each blocked damage up to every 0.25 seconds if you run a gold sturdy shield with all passives of the sword and shield skill line.
So if you are in a 1v1 situation and your opponent can weave and place dots you will get the full damage from dots, reduced damage from direct damage and light attacks but loose 1760/1000 stam for each direct damage instance blocked which can stack up to 4 times in a single second.
If you are so good at PvP that you can decide who belongs into PvP and who doesnt then you should know that the most effective way to deal with mag builds is to apply constant pressure and try and drain their stam if you cannot kill them in one burst.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭grannas211 wrote: »i think the change could be good. devs are nerfing nb burst via removal of fracture, berserk, and major defile.
not sure this will really gimp the front load 1shot potential of nb's but it certainly doesn't hurt that cause.
In structured pvp, nb's have been pretty non-existent at the higher end of organized play. with the prevalence of AOE, healbots, and more efficient brawler damage specs from other classes, the nb has been largely relegated to an irrelevant role of back-line sniper.
some manage ok, but nb in large part is considered at the bottom of the pecking order for structured play.
This silence introduces a new niche for the nb that could be extremely useful in small-scale structured pvp. namely - the ability to backline silence and coordinate an ult dump kill on enemy team healers or sorcs.
Others argue that it will kill the 1vX'er that likes to tank zergs in cyrodiil. i can see how this ability would hurt that endeavor. I also see alot of other abilities that also hurt that endeavor so i find the point somewhat moot.
imo - i could endorse this change but i do think the front load burst of nb does need a good nerf to justify such a powerful ability that now allows the nb to be a stategic and tactical assassin (instead of just a 1shot ganker).
if the change doesn't go live - w/e. nb hasn't been relevant in bg's for awhile now. even with this proposed change it may not vault the class into relevant status. i'd be interested to see.
Battlegrounds are very niche. And no nightblade is not a team based class, it never has been.
BGs are where, uh, large scalers (zergers and ball group members) say solos and small scalers should go. In some ways that should be accurate. But BGs are kind of a mess soooWaffennacht wrote: »If you can't survive for those 3 seconds then you dont belong in pvp.
That's just silly.
Sure I can make a build that can easily survive silence for 3 seconds; that's not the point.
The point is, such an ability kills game diversity. If I need to have a reliable means of dealing with silence every BG, then why not simply run a Stam build? It incentives homogenization of PvP and that's just boring.
It's not about survivability, it's about a healthy environment
What would be even more warping is that we know some stamblades would only hunt down mag chars in Cyrodiil. The experienced number of Silencing Incaps would be disproportionate for mag chars. Until there were too few mag chars to justify slotting it and still people would swap over with an addon like Dressing Room etc to really wreck each mag char they saw. In BGs it would maybe be more interesting for pre-made groups. Are you sure your opponents will bring mag healers over stamden healers? For solo queuing it would basically mean the only healers would be repeatedly silenced or stamdens. A lot of BGs nightblades would be swapping ultis because there were no mag chars etc.
Don't get me wrong I love Dressing Room. However, something that could make PvP more meta based would be locking in gear sets for periods of time where you were committed to your set up. Especially thinking of the inglorious days of Shieldbreaker and other set based hard counters. Kind of like registering a Magic deck for a tournament. Ultimately that wouldn't be interesting long term and it wouldn't be particularly interesting for large organized already set groups. However it would mean if a ganker wanted to really gank mag chars they could decided to stick with Incap. Then eventually they'd be stuck with the no magicka builds to prey on and a bad ultimate on their bar for some period of time.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just fyi changing gear on console is an absolute nightmare in BGs.
You get 1 or 2 switched then get in combat (even in spawn spot) and gotta wait2 -
Seenoevil✭✭✭Oh my bleed build stam nb is going to have some fun,la rend(hopefully poisons proc) barswap la incap, wait 3 seconds and fear followed by execute... potential 6 seconds taking a maximum of 3 devastating bleeds and double dot poisons ... with 0 counterplay....oh my2
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Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh my bleed build stam nb is going to have some fun,la rend(hopefully poisons proc) barswap la incap, wait 3 seconds and fear followed by execute... potential 6 seconds taking a maximum of 3 devastating bleeds and double dot poisons ... with 0 counterplay....oh my
But the forumblades said that I have counterplay, I just need to precast sun shield or mutagen because those are totally gonna save me from your damage combo, do you think they might have been dishonest?
(I know, I know but I really had to Im sorry) Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Oh my bleed build stam nb is going to have some fun,la rend(hopefully poisons proc) barswap la incap, wait 3 seconds and fear followed by execute... potential 6 seconds taking a maximum of 3 devastating bleeds and double dot poisons ... with 0 counterplay....oh my
But the forumblades said that I have counterplay, I just need to precast sun shield or mutagen because those are totally gonna save me from your damage combo, do you think they might have been dishonest? (I know, I know but I really had to Im sorry)
Forumblades?
Tbh, although some might not main nb in-game. On the forums those same players live in every. single. nb. post... Such dedication.
Those are the real forumblades.
As for countering the combo discussion, here in particular,
He starts with la>rend. Thats when shields, heals, dodgeroll or even a counter cc works.
Silence is strong vs mag skills. But in this combo, incap isnt immune to dodgeroll or blocking.Edited by Royalthought on May 10, 2019 10:10AM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »Oh my bleed build stam nb is going to have some fun,la rend(hopefully poisons proc) barswap la incap, wait 3 seconds and fear followed by execute... potential 6 seconds taking a maximum of 3 devastating bleeds and double dot poisons ... with 0 counterplay....oh my
But the forumblades said that I have counterplay, I just need to precast sun shield or mutagen because those are totally gonna save me from your damage combo, do you think they might have been dishonest? (I know, I know but I really had to Im sorry)
Forumblades?
Tbh, although some might not main nb in-game. On the forums those same players live in every. single. nb. post... Such dedication.
Those are the real forumblades.
As for countering the combo discussion, here in particular,
He starts with la>rend. Thats when shields, heals, dodgeroll or even a counter cc works.
Silence is strong vs mag skills. But in this combo, incap isnt immune to dodgeroll or blocking.
It can be if you want it to be, you can cast it from stealth with no way of predicting when it will happen unless you reveal the nightblade or you can use fear but then you wont have the fear immidiately after but you secured incap landing after you placed all your dots regardless.
This would be a different combo then the one mentioned tho. With the particular combo mentioned you can dodge but if you dont you are dead with no way to recover. No other ability has such pressure outside of a 1shot gank build and said oneshot gank builds sacrifice a lot of survivability and regen to get the kind of pressure they can inflict. With the new incap you sacrifice nothing.
Also whoever gave you the idea that the silence will not be applied when you block it? Thats not how blocking works, every negative effect that is not a stun will go through block. So it really doesnt matter if you block the incap or not. Its pressure will be applied regardless. You might survive a little bit longer if you dont take the full damage from incap but it wont save you if the stamblade is actually decent in this game.
And even after you have countered the dots with shields or whatever, as long as you are no mag templar you will still have them on you once silenced since they dont magically dissapear once you are hit by incap.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »Oh my bleed build stam nb is going to have some fun,la rend(hopefully poisons proc) barswap la incap, wait 3 seconds and fear followed by execute... potential 6 seconds taking a maximum of 3 devastating bleeds and double dot poisons ... with 0 counterplay....oh my
But the forumblades said that I have counterplay, I just need to precast sun shield or mutagen because those are totally gonna save me from your damage combo, do you think they might have been dishonest? (I know, I know but I really had to Im sorry)
Forumblades?
Tbh, although some might not main nb in-game. On the forums those same players live in every. single. nb. post... Such dedication.
Those are the real forumblades.
As for countering the combo discussion, here in particular,
He starts with la>rend. Thats when shields, heals, dodgeroll or even a counter cc works.
Silence is strong vs mag skills. But in this combo, incap isnt immune to dodgeroll or blocking.
It can be if you want it to be, you can cast it from stealth with no way of predicting when it will happen unless you reveal the nightblade or you can use fear but then you wont have the fear immidiately after but you secured incap landing after you placed all your dots regardless.
This would be a different combo then the one mentioned tho. With the particular combo mentioned you can dodge but if you dont you are dead with no way to recover. No other ability has such pressure outside of a 1shot gank build and said oneshot gank builds sacrifice a lot of survivability and regen to get the kind of pressure they can inflict. With the new incap you sacrifice nothing.
Also whoever gave you the idea that the silence will not be applied when you block it? Thats not how blocking works, every negative effect that is not a stun will go through block. So it really doesnt matter if you block the incap or not. Its pressure will be applied regardless. You might survive a little bit longer if you dont take the full damage from incap but it wont save you if the stamblade is actually decent in this game.
And even after you have countered the dots with shields or whatever, as long as you are no mag templar you will still have them on you once silenced since they dont magically dissapear once you are hit by incap.
Didnt imply block did anything but reduce spike damage. Not sure where that came from. Roll vs block is situational.
As for dots, they are what they are.
Ive always said, silence is strong vs mag skills.
But the one recurring theme "you are dead with no way to recover" is overly dramatic.
If out of stam, silenced and low health, yea Im probably about to respawn. But if I have health and stamina, I can definitely survive 3 seconds.
I wont say how many times ive been out of magic and dancing until that potion is ready.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »
Didnt imply block did anything but reduce spike damage. Not sure where that came from. Roll vs block is situational.
As for dots, they are what they are.
Ive always said, silence is strong vs mag skills.
But the one recurring theme "you are dead with no way to recover" is overly dramatic.
If out of stam, silenced and low health, yea Im probably about to respawn. But if I have health and stamina, I can definitely survive 3 seconds.
I wont say how many times ive been out of magic and dancing until that potion is ready.
Then I missunderstood what you wanted to say with blocking to counter incap, I was assuming with countering you meant avoiding the silence aswell as the damage, but yes blocking still reduces the damage of incap, which however is not the problem.
Dots are indeed what they are but we do have to think of them when talking about what the incap changes will do to mag builds because dots get applied by nearly every build. Silence disables mag skills. This is not just strong, haunting curse or soul assault on medium armor or dawnbreaker or the pre silence incap is strong, but this disables your main resource and abilities this is so much more than strong.
This one recurring theme also takes into account that after surviving said incap for 3 seconds, while only being able to rely on your limited offstat pool, your enemy wont just magically dissapear and your resources wont just restore because the game wishes to congratulate you for surviving 3 seconds on only your offstat.
This leaves you at a severe disadvantage with absolutely undue pressure which no single ability in this game comes even close to. And its rather cheap and avaiable to only one class. It doesnt even count as CC towards CC immunity in order to leave you your 6 seconds of respite.
It doesnt even apply to either very few builds or all builds but "only" to every magicka build in this game. Where is our even ground if we dont get counterplay? Give mag something that locks stam from using stam for the same duration as the silence and then we are on an even ground. It would still be a stupid change because it sets the precedent that having abilities which alone can decide a fight rather than player skill or utilization of mistakes is healthy, which by the way is not the case. Because why does it stop at a magicka silence? What are you gonna say when we get a silence implemented that stops people from using both stamina and magicka? Sound healthy? To me it doesnt and I am sure many people will agree.
See yet why this is problematic to say the least and why so many people are against this?
Edited by Sanguinor2 on May 10, 2019 3:01PMPoliteness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »
Didnt imply block did anything but reduce spike damage. Not sure where that came from. Roll vs block is situational.
As for dots, they are what they are.
Ive always said, silence is strong vs mag skills.
But the one recurring theme "you are dead with no way to recover" is overly dramatic.
If out of stam, silenced and low health, yea Im probably about to respawn. But if I have health and stamina, I can definitely survive 3 seconds.
I wont say how many times ive been out of magic and dancing until that potion is ready.
Then I missunderstood what you wanted to say with blocking to counter incap, I was assuming with countering you meant avoiding the silence aswell as the damage, but yes blocking still reduces the damage of incap, which however is not the problem.
Dots are indeed what they are but we do have to think of them when talking about what the incap changes will do to mag builds because dots get applied by nearly every build. Silence disables mag skills. This is not just strong, haunting curse or soul assault on medium armor or dawnbreaker or the pre silence incap is strong, but this disables your main resource and abilities this is so much more than strong.
This one recurring theme also takes into account that after surviving said incap for 3 seconds, while only being able to rely on your limited offstat pool, your enemy wont just magically dissapear and your resources wont just restore because the game wishes to congratulate you for surviving 3 seconds on only your offstat.
This leaves you at a severe disadvantage with absolutely undue pressure which no single ability in this game comes even close to. And its rather cheap and avaiable to only one class. It doesnt even count as CC towards CC immunity in order to leave you your 6 seconds of respite.
It doesnt even apply to either very few builds or all builds but "only" to every magicka build in this game. Where is our even ground if we dont get counterplay? Give mag something that locks stam from using stam for the same duration as the silence and then we are on an even ground. It would still be a stupid change because it sets the precedent that having abilities which alone can decide a fight rather than player skill or utilization of mistakes is healthy, which by the way is not the case. Because why does it stop at a magicka silence? What are you gonna say when we get a silence implemented that stops people from using both stamina and magicka? Sound healthy? To me it doesnt and I am sure many people will agree.
See yet why this is problematic to say the least and why so many people are against this?
Disadvantages are what counters create.
No one enjoys them being used against them. So that's understandable. Defile had counterplay yet that wasnt celebrated either.
AoE Silence is already in the game with sorcs but now we are introduced to a new angle on it. Single target - 3 second duration.
Tbh Im of two different minds on it. In organized GROUP play, nbs were never top. However the ability to silence key targets can make them a valuable asset.
A coordinated negate with CC>immobilization can create the same effect but on a group.
My other mind is that it creates lethal windows of opportunity on mag targets with their gaurd down in 1v1.
Again, its strong vs mag skills. I just dont go so far as to say it has no counters because stam oriented builds wont be bothered.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »
Disadvantages are what counters create.
No one enjoys them being used against them. So that's understandable. Defile had counterplay yet that wasnt celebrated either.
AoE Silence is already in the game with sorcs but now we are introduced to a new angle on it. Single target - 3 second duration.
Tbh Im of two different minds on it. In organized GROUP play, nbs were never top. However the ability to silence key targets can make them a valuable asset.
A coordinated negate with CC>immobilization can create the same effect but on a group.
My other mind is that it creates lethal windows of opportunity on mag targets with their gaurd down in 1v1.
Again, its strong vs mag skills. I just dont go so far as to say it has no counters because stam oriented builds wont be bothered.
Bolded is exactly the point. Defile has counterplay even after it is applied. You can cleanse it or outheal it.
AoE silence is in the game but has counterplay aswell, you can leave it and rather quick at that. There is a reason mag builds dont stay inside it while dodgerolling but use it to get out.
Stam oriented builds will likely be bothered but thats exactly the extend towards incap will go against them, they might miss some utility skills or buffs for 3 seconds but they are not missing their crucial heals, cc and damage.
I dont go as far to say that it has no counterplay in general either. What I and others said is that mag builds do not have counter play against it, or rather very inefficient counterplay which you cannot pull of multiple times because of off stat limitations and even if you survive you will still get pressured more than by any other ability in the game.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭the game is unfortunately fundamentally flawed. You are pigeoned holed into the need to 64 point into either stamina or magicka. Yet - only stamina is key for defensive maneuvers of dodge roll, sprint, break free, bash, and for the most part block.
As a result, stamina based players have a plentiful pool that allows them to strategically choose when to play offense or play defense and ample enough resources in that pool to fluidly work between both ends of that spectrum. This in turn makes the stamina based player's magicka bar fully utilized for 1 thing - utility. and that utility is extremely important for maneuvers such as cloak, streak, shimmering shield, wings, or ritual. Keys for defensive survival built on a bar that is entirely utility based and can be consumed without repercussion.
Conversely, the magicka toon can not use its plentiful magicka pool for both offensive and defensive mechanisms.. the inherent nature of block, dodge, sprint, and break free are all definitively stamina based and therefore must use that resource. As a result, the stamina bar for a magicka player is not like the magicka bar for a stamina player. it is not solely for utility, but rather for survival.
compound this issue with the fact that no true stamina utility abilities really exist (a small case could be made for blade cloak) and the reality is that magicka toons can not function and spec the way a stamina toon does.
the only fair proposal - silence must truly work on all abilities. stamina abilities included. otherwise it is definitely to one-sided against magicka toons.
the disparity is already born out in open world cyrodiil. the predominant flavor of ball group today is stam wardens running perma / spin / sub into heaps of players that are negated by a token sorc in the group.
while i think the effect could introduce some new flavor for the nb in structured play, at the heart of it - it's just broken because of it's biased lopsidedness against magicka. As a result, I don't think it can be embraced to go live.
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Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »
Disadvantages are what counters create.
No one enjoys them being used against them. So that's understandable. Defile had counterplay yet that wasnt celebrated either.
AoE Silence is already in the game with sorcs but now we are introduced to a new angle on it. Single target - 3 second duration.
Tbh Im of two different minds on it. In organized GROUP play, nbs were never top. However the ability to silence key targets can make them a valuable asset.
A coordinated negate with CC>immobilization can create the same effect but on a group.
My other mind is that it creates lethal windows of opportunity on mag targets with their gaurd down in 1v1.
Again, its strong vs mag skills. I just dont go so far as to say it has no counters because stam oriented builds wont be bothered.
Bolded is exactly the point. Defile has counterplay even after it is applied. You can cleanse it or outheal it.
AoE silence is in the game but has counterplay aswell, you can leave it and rather quick at that. There is a reason mag builds dont stay inside it while dodgerolling but use it to get out.
Stam oriented builds will likely be bothered but thats exactly the extend towards incap will go against them, they might miss some utility skills or buffs for 3 seconds but they are not missing their crucial heals, cc and damage.
I dont go as far to say that it has no counterplay in general either. What I and others said is that mag builds do not have counter play against it, or rather very inefficient counterplay which you cannot pull of multiple times because of off stat limitations and even if you survive you will still get pressured more than by any other ability in the game.
I guess the bolded and the response is how we got here.
Even tho counterplay already existed, people still campaigned for nerfs. So, here we are.
Thats why its hard to believe, now, its because they want counterplay. The nerf crowd doesnt seem to want balance. They want what they like improved and what they fight against weakened.
They may take a look at silence. But having an aoe and a single target version makes sense.
Hopefully they both come out as quality skills0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Quickslot addon smart switch to invis pot when silenced. Get incaped, roll dodge into invis pot.
This is assuming you arent marked before hand lol.
Otherwise the only solution i can think of is an imov pot and a roll dodge, 3 seconds isnt THAT long.0 -
mursie✭✭✭✭✭counter to incap: cry on forums for nerf before it goes live.
seems counter works quite well.
carry on0 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭This game needs more silences. I suggested a visual telegraph when NB reaches 120 ultimate that makes the opponent aware this guy is about to silence me. Considering how powerful silence is I think that’s fair. I really hope it goes live.
From what I understand it can be dodged. And maybe if they made it blockable with a telegraph it’d lessen the “outrage”.
Group play it’s not going to be an issue. One on one it can be kinda hairy if you don’t make any changes to your build.Edited by khajiitNPC on May 13, 2019 7:06PM0 -
kpittsniperb14_ESO✭✭✭✭the game is unfortunately fundamentally flawed. You are pigeoned holed into the need to 64 point into either stamina or magicka. Yet - only stamina is key for defensive maneuvers of dodge roll, sprint, break free, bash, and for the most part block.
As a result, stamina based players have a plentiful pool that allows them to strategically choose when to play offense or play defense and ample enough resources in that pool to fluidly work between both ends of that spectrum. This in turn makes the stamina based player's magicka bar fully utilized for 1 thing - utility. and that utility is extremely important for maneuvers such as cloak, streak, shimmering shield, wings, or ritual. Keys for defensive survival built on a bar that is entirely utility based and can be consumed without repercussion.
Conversely, the magicka toon can not use its plentiful magicka pool for both offensive and defensive mechanisms.. the inherent nature of block, dodge, sprint, and break free are all definitively stamina based and therefore must use that resource. As a result, the stamina bar for a magicka player is not like the magicka bar for a stamina player. it is not solely for utility, but rather for survival.
compound this issue with the fact that no true stamina utility abilities really exist (a small case could be made for blade cloak) and the reality is that magicka toons can not function and spec the way a stamina toon does.
the only fair proposal - silence must truly work on all abilities. stamina abilities included. otherwise it is definitely to one-sided against magicka toons.
the disparity is already born out in open world cyrodiil. the predominant flavor of ball group today is stam wardens running perma / spin / sub into heaps of players that are negated by a token sorc in the group.
while i think the effect could introduce some new flavor for the nb in structured play, at the heart of it - it's just broken because of it's biased lopsidedness against magicka. As a result, I don't think it can be embraced to go live.
Would be interesting to see Incap and Negate affect stam as well as mag with exception of dodge rolling. Wouldn't be well received though based on the amount of bros in pvp right now.Magicka DK-Rowsdowerr
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