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Transmutation Crystals needs management improvement
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Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nublet Question. When you Transmute, is it bound to that character or to account?
Account.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with OP that when we open a geode we should get 100% of the crystals. It should be fairly simple that if we are at the cap we cannot open the geode. If we are close to the cap a new geode should put us over the cap by the total amount of crystals remaining after hitting the cap.
As for the rest, it is no different than having to manage inventory when we horde stuff and I learned long ago that if I do not need to transmute something that I should not sweat it. I have a collection of geodes from 30 day PvP rewards which are not an issue to store and do fine by that.1 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭
chance to get nirncrux is not 100%. I think it's around 80-90% according to my tests on PTS (deconed 10 nirn items). Risky.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »the best being make a weapon, transmute to nirnhoned, decon, sell nirnhoned trait. pure profit
Still, if 70% of your inventory are geodes lol... on several characters lol, then hell with it and start making transmuted nirn items!1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
chance to get nirncrux is not 100%. I think it's around 80-90% according to my tests on PTS (deconed 10 nirn items). Risky.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »the best being make a weapon, transmute to nirnhoned, decon, sell nirnhoned trait. pure profit
Still, if 70% of your inventory are geodes lol... on several characters lol, then hell with it and start making transmuted nirn items!
if you would have continued to read and kept the full quote, here is the sentence after that, that addresses what you are saying.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »yes, you don't get a trait stone every time but it is better then losing them or letting them pile up right? are you that worried that zos will take that ability away or something?
the decon rate is like 50% but what else are those stones doing for you (the royal "you", not you particularly, @mocap).
for the record, i have never been at cap, closest i have been is like 92 out of 100, as i am not a ESO+ sub. and i still have things i want to transmute all the time.
0 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Dot you have anything to back that up?
Actually, yes. I looked it up the last time someone asked me to cite sources.
Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Transmutation
Developer Comments:The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.
Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.
As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.
I'd argue that intent hasn't changed much, even with jewelry crafting, which actually serves as an excellent sink for using up excess transmute stones acquired by trial runners and PVPers.
Thank a lot for digging it up
But what I don't understand, and would love if you or any other defender of the current system could explain, is how this statement contradicts a better way to manage the crystals. That statement, and all other arguments I hear, is about how to gain them and use them, not manage them. Which the whole point of this discussion is. Management. Storage.
I must have said umpteen times that the problem isn't how to gain them. You could do one or two runs in a new dungeon and transmute all the gear directly as it is now. What you guys are afraid of is already happening.
Here's the argument in a gist:
ZOS doesn't want transmute crystals to be the primary way to change traits on gear. But transmute stones are easy to gain, so ZOS wants to make sure that players don't hoard a whole bunch to trait change all their new gear without having to run the content enough. They do this a couple of ways.
A. Capping the amount you can hold.
B. Use them or Lose them. Either use your stones, or lose the new ones you get.
C. Want to hoard your Geodes anyway? Welcome to inventory management problems! (As an aside, ZOS deliberately creates inventory management issues for a variety of reasons, but most obviously to sell for ESO+ crafting bags.)
D. Want the new Jewelry Crafting traits on dropped gear? You've got to spend your transmute crystals to get them.
And yes, all those are pain points for players who want: access to lots of stones, hoarding without inventory management problems, and no more "use 'em or lose 'em".
So the crux of the argument is that those pain points are working as ZOS intended. They are a feature, not a bug. The pain points don't always stop players from accumulating a vast horde of geodes or transmute stones, but they do make it much more annoying to manage such a horde, encouraging players to use their stones instead of hoarding them to use on the gear from new content.
Now, ZOS isn't ever going to come out and say "We deliberately made it annoying for you all to hold your crystals." But that's effectively what they did and are still doing, and its not that hard to see why when I look at it from the perspective of the game developers rather than as an annoyed player.
No I totally understand that as well, and I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to have such an approach. Because you can still work around it, it just takes a little more time, and in the process the pile of arguments of quitting the game just increases a little more each day. Nobody wants to be annoyed. And ZOS sure isn't winning with this kind of attitude in the long run. But as long as new players are buying the game and the crown store is selling, they'll ignore this kind of feedback I guess.Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
I'm almost amused that you still refuse to understand that there's a LOT of players that can buy loads of overland sets in different traits, or do just one dungeon run and get all the required pieces, and then transmute the whole shebang and still have piles of crystals left.
Of course there are lots of players who can do that. ("Lots" being subjective...I don't have access to the data on how many players over the whole player base hoard crystals, but ZOS does)
The last time I recorded my gear runs for armor, it worked out like this. Warning: not statistically significant.
Using 1 transmute geode took 30 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed in the correct trait.
Using 4 transmute geodes took 5 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed.
Now obviously that's heavily reliant on luck and RNG. So I wouldnt put too much weight on the exact numbers. Still, its indicative that the more transmute geodes you have to use, the less you have to grind for what you want simply because trait doesnt matter any more.
Isn't that a good thing, that you can complete your sets faster from content you really don't want to do, so you can get the stuff you want, and move on to the content you want to do? Isn't it the content that's fun that keep us here in the game?
You must have been around long enough to remember the Maelstrom Arena grind, and the pure hate people had for it. And a lot of people actually quit because of it, because without the staff or the bow you weren't as competitive in trials and dungeons (which of course you can argue about, but people thought that nonetheless), which led to people mindlessly grinding it, not getting what they wanted, got tired of the game and quit. Extremely bad game design.
It seems like I'm repeating myself all the time in this discussion. I know WHY ZOS has this crappy system. I know HOW to work around it. But it sucks. It really does. And I find it so strange that there still are players here willing to defend something that isn't well designed, nor fun, just because "ZOS wants it to be this way". Or do you really think that the system is good? That ZOS is doing right by keeping it this way? And I don't want the answer I hear all the time, the "ZOS makes people run the same content and by so they are keeping players in the game". I want the personal opinion. Because a lot of you seems like nice and smart guys, so why would you personally defend something that's so badly designed?EU PC0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Dot you have anything to back that up?
Actually, yes. I looked it up the last time someone asked me to cite sources.
Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Transmutation
Developer Comments:The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.
Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.
As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.
I'd argue that intent hasn't changed much, even with jewelry crafting, which actually serves as an excellent sink for using up excess transmute stones acquired by trial runners and PVPers.
Thank a lot for digging it up
But what I don't understand, and would love if you or any other defender of the current system could explain, is how this statement contradicts a better way to manage the crystals. That statement, and all other arguments I hear, is about how to gain them and use them, not manage them. Which the whole point of this discussion is. Management. Storage.
I must have said umpteen times that the problem isn't how to gain them. You could do one or two runs in a new dungeon and transmute all the gear directly as it is now. What you guys are afraid of is already happening.
Here's the argument in a gist:
ZOS doesn't want transmute crystals to be the primary way to change traits on gear. But transmute stones are easy to gain, so ZOS wants to make sure that players don't hoard a whole bunch to trait change all their new gear without having to run the content enough. They do this a couple of ways.
A. Capping the amount you can hold.
B. Use them or Lose them. Either use your stones, or lose the new ones you get.
C. Want to hoard your Geodes anyway? Welcome to inventory management problems! (As an aside, ZOS deliberately creates inventory management issues for a variety of reasons, but most obviously to sell for ESO+ crafting bags.)
D. Want the new Jewelry Crafting traits on dropped gear? You've got to spend your transmute crystals to get them.
And yes, all those are pain points for players who want: access to lots of stones, hoarding without inventory management problems, and no more "use 'em or lose 'em".
So the crux of the argument is that those pain points are working as ZOS intended. They are a feature, not a bug. The pain points don't always stop players from accumulating a vast horde of geodes or transmute stones, but they do make it much more annoying to manage such a horde, encouraging players to use their stones instead of hoarding them to use on the gear from new content.
Now, ZOS isn't ever going to come out and say "We deliberately made it annoying for you all to hold your crystals." But that's effectively what they did and are still doing, and its not that hard to see why when I look at it from the perspective of the game developers rather than as an annoyed player.
No I totally understand that as well, and I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to have such an approach. Because you can still work around it, it just takes a little more time, and in the process the pile of arguments of quitting the game just increases a little more each day. Nobody wants to be annoyed. And ZOS sure isn't winning with this kind of attitude in the long run. But as long as new players are buying the game and the crown store is selling, they'll ignore this kind of feedback I guess.Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
I'm almost amused that you still refuse to understand that there's a LOT of players that can buy loads of overland sets in different traits, or do just one dungeon run and get all the required pieces, and then transmute the whole shebang and still have piles of crystals left.
Of course there are lots of players who can do that. ("Lots" being subjective...I don't have access to the data on how many players over the whole player base hoard crystals, but ZOS does)
The last time I recorded my gear runs for armor, it worked out like this. Warning: not statistically significant.
Using 1 transmute geode took 30 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed in the correct trait.
Using 4 transmute geodes took 5 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed.
Now obviously that's heavily reliant on luck and RNG. So I wouldnt put too much weight on the exact numbers. Still, its indicative that the more transmute geodes you have to use, the less you have to grind for what you want simply because trait doesnt matter any more.
Isn't that a good thing, that you can complete your sets faster from content you really don't want to do, so you can get the stuff you want, and move on to the content you want to do? Isn't it the content that's fun that keep us here in the game?
You must have been around long enough to remember the Maelstrom Arena grind, and the pure hate people had for it. And a lot of people actually quit because of it, because without the staff or the bow you weren't as competitive in trials and dungeons (which of course you can argue about, but people thought that nonetheless), which led to people mindlessly grinding it, not getting what they wanted, got tired of the game and quit. Extremely bad game design.
It seems like I'm repeating myself all the time in this discussion. I know WHY ZOS has this crappy system. I know HOW to work around it. But it sucks. It really does. And I find it so strange that there still are players here willing to defend something that isn't well designed, nor fun, just because "ZOS wants it to be this way". Or do you really think that the system is good? That ZOS is doing right by keeping it this way? And I don't want the answer I hear all the time, the "ZOS makes people run the same content and by so they are keeping players in the game". I want the personal opinion. Because a lot of you seems like nice and smart guys, so why would you personally defend something that's so badly designed?
Its good for me to change my gear with less runs.
Its not great for ZOS if a lot of players hoard crystals and thus are able to regularly skip most of the gear grind.
From ZOS' perspective, crystal storage is very well designed to get them the result they want across the whole player base.
My personal opinion: Its pointless for me to defend or dislike the transmute storage system. Its working exactly as ZOS intends and is very unlikely to change. I might as well argue with the weather.
Also, it doesnt impact me very much because of that.
I PVP regularly. I dont chase the meta. I don't retrait my gear or refarm the new meta gear every update.
So I've got a bunch of geodes with nothing to use them on. I don't subscribe, so I've got the base 100 crystal storage.
I keep around 10 geodes on hand and do the nirnhoned transmute trick on the extras. There's really no reason for me to hoard beyond that.
I'm curious now. How many transmute crystals /geodes are other people here hoarding?1 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Dot you have anything to back that up?
Actually, yes. I looked it up the last time someone asked me to cite sources.
Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Transmutation
Developer Comments:The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.
Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.
As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.
I'd argue that intent hasn't changed much, even with jewelry crafting, which actually serves as an excellent sink for using up excess transmute stones acquired by trial runners and PVPers.
Thank a lot for digging it up
But what I don't understand, and would love if you or any other defender of the current system could explain, is how this statement contradicts a better way to manage the crystals. That statement, and all other arguments I hear, is about how to gain them and use them, not manage them. Which the whole point of this discussion is. Management. Storage.
I must have said umpteen times that the problem isn't how to gain them. You could do one or two runs in a new dungeon and transmute all the gear directly as it is now. What you guys are afraid of is already happening.
Here's the argument in a gist:
ZOS doesn't want transmute crystals to be the primary way to change traits on gear. But transmute stones are easy to gain, so ZOS wants to make sure that players don't hoard a whole bunch to trait change all their new gear without having to run the content enough. They do this a couple of ways.
A. Capping the amount you can hold.
B. Use them or Lose them. Either use your stones, or lose the new ones you get.
C. Want to hoard your Geodes anyway? Welcome to inventory management problems! (As an aside, ZOS deliberately creates inventory management issues for a variety of reasons, but most obviously to sell for ESO+ crafting bags.)
D. Want the new Jewelry Crafting traits on dropped gear? You've got to spend your transmute crystals to get them.
And yes, all those are pain points for players who want: access to lots of stones, hoarding without inventory management problems, and no more "use 'em or lose 'em".
So the crux of the argument is that those pain points are working as ZOS intended. They are a feature, not a bug. The pain points don't always stop players from accumulating a vast horde of geodes or transmute stones, but they do make it much more annoying to manage such a horde, encouraging players to use their stones instead of hoarding them to use on the gear from new content.
Now, ZOS isn't ever going to come out and say "We deliberately made it annoying for you all to hold your crystals." But that's effectively what they did and are still doing, and its not that hard to see why when I look at it from the perspective of the game developers rather than as an annoyed player.
No I totally understand that as well, and I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to have such an approach. Because you can still work around it, it just takes a little more time, and in the process the pile of arguments of quitting the game just increases a little more each day. Nobody wants to be annoyed. And ZOS sure isn't winning with this kind of attitude in the long run. But as long as new players are buying the game and the crown store is selling, they'll ignore this kind of feedback I guess.Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
I'm almost amused that you still refuse to understand that there's a LOT of players that can buy loads of overland sets in different traits, or do just one dungeon run and get all the required pieces, and then transmute the whole shebang and still have piles of crystals left.
Of course there are lots of players who can do that. ("Lots" being subjective...I don't have access to the data on how many players over the whole player base hoard crystals, but ZOS does)
The last time I recorded my gear runs for armor, it worked out like this. Warning: not statistically significant.
Using 1 transmute geode took 30 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed in the correct trait.
Using 4 transmute geodes took 5 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed.
Now obviously that's heavily reliant on luck and RNG. So I wouldnt put too much weight on the exact numbers. Still, its indicative that the more transmute geodes you have to use, the less you have to grind for what you want simply because trait doesnt matter any more.
Isn't that a good thing, that you can complete your sets faster from content you really don't want to do, so you can get the stuff you want, and move on to the content you want to do? Isn't it the content that's fun that keep us here in the game?
You must have been around long enough to remember the Maelstrom Arena grind, and the pure hate people had for it. And a lot of people actually quit because of it, because without the staff or the bow you weren't as competitive in trials and dungeons (which of course you can argue about, but people thought that nonetheless), which led to people mindlessly grinding it, not getting what they wanted, got tired of the game and quit. Extremely bad game design.
It seems like I'm repeating myself all the time in this discussion. I know WHY ZOS has this crappy system. I know HOW to work around it. But it sucks. It really does. And I find it so strange that there still are players here willing to defend something that isn't well designed, nor fun, just because "ZOS wants it to be this way". Or do you really think that the system is good? That ZOS is doing right by keeping it this way? And I don't want the answer I hear all the time, the "ZOS makes people run the same content and by so they are keeping players in the game". I want the personal opinion. Because a lot of you seems like nice and smart guys, so why would you personally defend something that's so badly designed?
Its good for me to change my gear with less runs.
Its not great for ZOS if a lot of players hoard crystals and thus are able to regularly skip most of the gear grind.
From ZOS' perspective, crystal storage is very well designed to get them the result they want across the whole player base.
My personal opinion: Its pointless for me to defend or dislike the transmute storage system. Its working exactly as ZOS intends and is very unlikely to change. I might as well argue with the weather.
Also, it doesnt impact me very much because of that.
I PVP regularly. I dont chase the meta. I don't retrait my gear or refarm the new meta gear every update.
So I've got a bunch of geodes with nothing to use them on. I don't subscribe, so I've got the base 100 crystal storage.
I keep around 10 geodes on hand and do the nirnhoned transmute trick on the extras. There's really no reason for me to hoard beyond that.
I'm curious now. How many transmute crystals /geodes are other people here hoarding?
That's a sad approach if you ask me. Of course you can change stuff if you put your mind to it. Why settle with bad stuff? And I still only hear "ZOS thinks, ZOS perspective etc.". But I guess I'll just have to settle with that some people just follow.EU PC0 -
Daedric_NB_187✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
Ummmmm...... I could do that right now as we speak 🤷🏾♂️. So what's the next excuse?0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Dot you have anything to back that up?
Actually, yes. I looked it up the last time someone asked me to cite sources.
Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Transmutation
Developer Comments:The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.
Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.
As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.
I'd argue that intent hasn't changed much, even with jewelry crafting, which actually serves as an excellent sink for using up excess transmute stones acquired by trial runners and PVPers.
Thank a lot for digging it up
But what I don't understand, and would love if you or any other defender of the current system could explain, is how this statement contradicts a better way to manage the crystals. That statement, and all other arguments I hear, is about how to gain them and use them, not manage them. Which the whole point of this discussion is. Management. Storage.
I must have said umpteen times that the problem isn't how to gain them. You could do one or two runs in a new dungeon and transmute all the gear directly as it is now. What you guys are afraid of is already happening.
Here's the argument in a gist:
ZOS doesn't want transmute crystals to be the primary way to change traits on gear. But transmute stones are easy to gain, so ZOS wants to make sure that players don't hoard a whole bunch to trait change all their new gear without having to run the content enough. They do this a couple of ways.
A. Capping the amount you can hold.
B. Use them or Lose them. Either use your stones, or lose the new ones you get.
C. Want to hoard your Geodes anyway? Welcome to inventory management problems! (As an aside, ZOS deliberately creates inventory management issues for a variety of reasons, but most obviously to sell for ESO+ crafting bags.)
D. Want the new Jewelry Crafting traits on dropped gear? You've got to spend your transmute crystals to get them.
And yes, all those are pain points for players who want: access to lots of stones, hoarding without inventory management problems, and no more "use 'em or lose 'em".
So the crux of the argument is that those pain points are working as ZOS intended. They are a feature, not a bug. The pain points don't always stop players from accumulating a vast horde of geodes or transmute stones, but they do make it much more annoying to manage such a horde, encouraging players to use their stones instead of hoarding them to use on the gear from new content.
Now, ZOS isn't ever going to come out and say "We deliberately made it annoying for you all to hold your crystals." But that's effectively what they did and are still doing, and its not that hard to see why when I look at it from the perspective of the game developers rather than as an annoyed player.
No I totally understand that as well, and I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to have such an approach. Because you can still work around it, it just takes a little more time, and in the process the pile of arguments of quitting the game just increases a little more each day. Nobody wants to be annoyed. And ZOS sure isn't winning with this kind of attitude in the long run. But as long as new players are buying the game and the crown store is selling, they'll ignore this kind of feedback I guess.Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
I'm almost amused that you still refuse to understand that there's a LOT of players that can buy loads of overland sets in different traits, or do just one dungeon run and get all the required pieces, and then transmute the whole shebang and still have piles of crystals left.
Of course there are lots of players who can do that. ("Lots" being subjective...I don't have access to the data on how many players over the whole player base hoard crystals, but ZOS does)
The last time I recorded my gear runs for armor, it worked out like this. Warning: not statistically significant.
Using 1 transmute geode took 30 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed in the correct trait.
Using 4 transmute geodes took 5 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed.
Now obviously that's heavily reliant on luck and RNG. So I wouldnt put too much weight on the exact numbers. Still, its indicative that the more transmute geodes you have to use, the less you have to grind for what you want simply because trait doesnt matter any more.
Isn't that a good thing, that you can complete your sets faster from content you really don't want to do, so you can get the stuff you want, and move on to the content you want to do? Isn't it the content that's fun that keep us here in the game?
You must have been around long enough to remember the Maelstrom Arena grind, and the pure hate people had for it. And a lot of people actually quit because of it, because without the staff or the bow you weren't as competitive in trials and dungeons (which of course you can argue about, but people thought that nonetheless), which led to people mindlessly grinding it, not getting what they wanted, got tired of the game and quit. Extremely bad game design.
It seems like I'm repeating myself all the time in this discussion. I know WHY ZOS has this crappy system. I know HOW to work around it. But it sucks. It really does. And I find it so strange that there still are players here willing to defend something that isn't well designed, nor fun, just because "ZOS wants it to be this way". Or do you really think that the system is good? That ZOS is doing right by keeping it this way? And I don't want the answer I hear all the time, the "ZOS makes people run the same content and by so they are keeping players in the game". I want the personal opinion. Because a lot of you seems like nice and smart guys, so why would you personally defend something that's so badly designed?
Its good for me to change my gear with less runs.
Its not great for ZOS if a lot of players hoard crystals and thus are able to regularly skip most of the gear grind.
From ZOS' perspective, crystal storage is very well designed to get them the result they want across the whole player base.
My personal opinion: Its pointless for me to defend or dislike the transmute storage system. Its working exactly as ZOS intends and is very unlikely to change. I might as well argue with the weather.
Also, it doesnt impact me very much because of that.
I PVP regularly. I dont chase the meta. I don't retrait my gear or refarm the new meta gear every update.
So I've got a bunch of geodes with nothing to use them on. I don't subscribe, so I've got the base 100 crystal storage.
I keep around 10 geodes on hand and do the nirnhoned transmute trick on the extras. There's really no reason for me to hoard beyond that.
I'm curious now. How many transmute crystals /geodes are other people here hoarding?
That's a sad approach if you ask me. Of course you can change stuff if you put your mind to it. Why settle with bad stuff? And I still only hear "ZOS thinks, ZOS perspective etc.". But I guess I'll just have to settle with that some people just follow.
Really? You asked what I thought. There's no need to be dismissive or imply that I haven't thought about it.
Its not about "following". Its about being realistic about how to persuade a major company to make a proposed change to their game.
To be perfectly blunt, I think about why ZOS runs ESO the way they do because I want to understand their decision making. That way I can better argue for the changes I want, because if the changes I want don't benefit ZOS in some way, they are much less likely to happen.
ESO is a business, being run by ZOS like a business for ZOS' benefit. Sometimes that means ZOS introduces inconveniences because that benefit ZOS.
ZOS benefits from the current inventory management system, as has been detailed above. ZOS benefits from that a lot more than they do by changing it to make some players happier. Because of those pain points, they prevent players from hoarding huge amounts, they get players to run content more times, and they get more ESO+ sales from the inventory management issues over the whole game population.
And therefore, nothing will change.
If I want it to change, I would have to convince ZOS that they benefit monetarily from changing how crystal storage works over and above the way they benefit from it now.
And I see no way of convincing ZOS of that. I haven't heard one player offer any reason more convincing than "It would make me happier." Sorry, there's no comparing the intangible happiness increase of some hoarders with the quite tangible benefits ZOS gets from the status quo discouraging hoarding.
So unless you've got a better reason than that, nothing will change. Realistically.
And if you don't think about why ZOS runs ESO the way they do, or you don't consider how to persuade ZOS that they benefit from your proposed changes to the system, you are going to have a very hard time persuading anyone at ZOS to put actual money into making your proposed change.
That's just being realistic. Unless a company benefits from changing the status quo, over and above where they are with status quo, nothing's going to change.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
Ummmmm...... I could do that right now as we speak 🤷🏾♂️. So what's the next excuse?
It seems odd to call Tale's solid logic an excuse. Clearly you are not in need of crystals or you would not have an issue banking them.1 -
Vildebill✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Dot you have anything to back that up?
Actually, yes. I looked it up the last time someone asked me to cite sources.
Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Transmutation
Developer Comments:The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.
Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.
As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.
I'd argue that intent hasn't changed much, even with jewelry crafting, which actually serves as an excellent sink for using up excess transmute stones acquired by trial runners and PVPers.
Thank a lot for digging it up
But what I don't understand, and would love if you or any other defender of the current system could explain, is how this statement contradicts a better way to manage the crystals. That statement, and all other arguments I hear, is about how to gain them and use them, not manage them. Which the whole point of this discussion is. Management. Storage.
I must have said umpteen times that the problem isn't how to gain them. You could do one or two runs in a new dungeon and transmute all the gear directly as it is now. What you guys are afraid of is already happening.
Here's the argument in a gist:
ZOS doesn't want transmute crystals to be the primary way to change traits on gear. But transmute stones are easy to gain, so ZOS wants to make sure that players don't hoard a whole bunch to trait change all their new gear without having to run the content enough. They do this a couple of ways.
A. Capping the amount you can hold.
B. Use them or Lose them. Either use your stones, or lose the new ones you get.
C. Want to hoard your Geodes anyway? Welcome to inventory management problems! (As an aside, ZOS deliberately creates inventory management issues for a variety of reasons, but most obviously to sell for ESO+ crafting bags.)
D. Want the new Jewelry Crafting traits on dropped gear? You've got to spend your transmute crystals to get them.
And yes, all those are pain points for players who want: access to lots of stones, hoarding without inventory management problems, and no more "use 'em or lose 'em".
So the crux of the argument is that those pain points are working as ZOS intended. They are a feature, not a bug. The pain points don't always stop players from accumulating a vast horde of geodes or transmute stones, but they do make it much more annoying to manage such a horde, encouraging players to use their stones instead of hoarding them to use on the gear from new content.
Now, ZOS isn't ever going to come out and say "We deliberately made it annoying for you all to hold your crystals." But that's effectively what they did and are still doing, and its not that hard to see why when I look at it from the perspective of the game developers rather than as an annoyed player.
No I totally understand that as well, and I'm trying to point out how stupid it is to have such an approach. Because you can still work around it, it just takes a little more time, and in the process the pile of arguments of quitting the game just increases a little more each day. Nobody wants to be annoyed. And ZOS sure isn't winning with this kind of attitude in the long run. But as long as new players are buying the game and the crown store is selling, they'll ignore this kind of feedback I guess.Taleof2Cities wrote: »It’s not “annoyance” in the purest form.
It’s making sure you’re doing the content to get the gear you need.
To put it another way, it’s making sure players don’t buy two overland 5-piece sets from the guild traders ... and immediately change the trait on all 10 pieces of said sets.
I'm almost amused that you still refuse to understand that there's a LOT of players that can buy loads of overland sets in different traits, or do just one dungeon run and get all the required pieces, and then transmute the whole shebang and still have piles of crystals left.
Of course there are lots of players who can do that. ("Lots" being subjective...I don't have access to the data on how many players over the whole player base hoard crystals, but ZOS does)
The last time I recorded my gear runs for armor, it worked out like this. Warning: not statistically significant.
Using 1 transmute geode took 30 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed in the correct trait.
Using 4 transmute geodes took 5 runs to get the 5 armor pieces I needed.
Now obviously that's heavily reliant on luck and RNG. So I wouldnt put too much weight on the exact numbers. Still, its indicative that the more transmute geodes you have to use, the less you have to grind for what you want simply because trait doesnt matter any more.
Isn't that a good thing, that you can complete your sets faster from content you really don't want to do, so you can get the stuff you want, and move on to the content you want to do? Isn't it the content that's fun that keep us here in the game?
You must have been around long enough to remember the Maelstrom Arena grind, and the pure hate people had for it. And a lot of people actually quit because of it, because without the staff or the bow you weren't as competitive in trials and dungeons (which of course you can argue about, but people thought that nonetheless), which led to people mindlessly grinding it, not getting what they wanted, got tired of the game and quit. Extremely bad game design.
It seems like I'm repeating myself all the time in this discussion. I know WHY ZOS has this crappy system. I know HOW to work around it. But it sucks. It really does. And I find it so strange that there still are players here willing to defend something that isn't well designed, nor fun, just because "ZOS wants it to be this way". Or do you really think that the system is good? That ZOS is doing right by keeping it this way? And I don't want the answer I hear all the time, the "ZOS makes people run the same content and by so they are keeping players in the game". I want the personal opinion. Because a lot of you seems like nice and smart guys, so why would you personally defend something that's so badly designed?
Its good for me to change my gear with less runs.
Its not great for ZOS if a lot of players hoard crystals and thus are able to regularly skip most of the gear grind.
From ZOS' perspective, crystal storage is very well designed to get them the result they want across the whole player base.
My personal opinion: Its pointless for me to defend or dislike the transmute storage system. Its working exactly as ZOS intends and is very unlikely to change. I might as well argue with the weather.
Also, it doesnt impact me very much because of that.
I PVP regularly. I dont chase the meta. I don't retrait my gear or refarm the new meta gear every update.
So I've got a bunch of geodes with nothing to use them on. I don't subscribe, so I've got the base 100 crystal storage.
I keep around 10 geodes on hand and do the nirnhoned transmute trick on the extras. There's really no reason for me to hoard beyond that.
I'm curious now. How many transmute crystals /geodes are other people here hoarding?
That's a sad approach if you ask me. Of course you can change stuff if you put your mind to it. Why settle with bad stuff? And I still only hear "ZOS thinks, ZOS perspective etc.". But I guess I'll just have to settle with that some people just follow.
Really? You asked what I thought. There's no need to be dismissive or imply that I haven't thought about it.
Its not about "following". Its about being realistic about how to persuade a major company to make a proposed change to their game.
To be perfectly blunt, I think about why ZOS runs ESO the way they do because I want to understand their decision making. That way I can better argue for the changes I want, because if the changes I want don't benefit ZOS in some way, they are much less likely to happen.
ESO is a business, being run by ZOS like a business for ZOS' benefit. Sometimes that means ZOS introduces inconveniences because that benefit ZOS.
ZOS benefits from the current inventory management system, as has been detailed above. ZOS benefits from that a lot more than they do by changing it to make some players happier. Because of those pain points, they prevent players from hoarding huge amounts, they get players to run content more times, and they get more ESO+ sales from the inventory management issues over the whole game population.
And therefore, nothing will change.
If I want it to change, I would have to convince ZOS that they benefit monetarily from changing how crystal storage works over and above the way they benefit from it now.
And I see no way of convincing ZOS of that. I haven't heard one player offer any reason more convincing than "It would make me happier." Sorry, there's no comparing the intangible happiness increase of some hoarders with the quite tangible benefits ZOS gets from the status quo discouraging hoarding.
So unless you've got a better reason than that, nothing will change. Realistically.
And if you don't think about why ZOS runs ESO the way they do, or you don't consider how to persuade ZOS that they benefit from your proposed changes to the system, you are going to have a very hard time persuading anyone at ZOS to put actual money into making your proposed change.
That's just being realistic. Unless a company benefits from changing the status quo, over and above where they are with status quo, nothing's going to change.
I think I have given a lot of arguments that's worth taking into consideration. Like how many players left on the Maelstrom Arena grind. A lot of decisions ZOS makes are short term ones that will be monetarily advantageous at the moment, but will in the end lead to long term and devoted players leaving. Right now they are mostly catering new players and whales, the game is full of game breaking bugs, the forums is drowning in threads about the bugs, but yet ZOS keep adding new content and stuff in the store.
So in short term, yeah, I guess ZOS and you are right, but in the long term, not really.EU PC0
