Transmutation Crystals needs management improvement

jaws343

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

VaranisArano

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

jaws343

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

Not quite sure how players transmuting gear means they aren't playing the game. Are they just transmuting this new gear and then quitting? They are transmuting gear for a reason, to play the game. The players you are talking about already have millions upon millions of gold. If you think they are wasting their time farming for perfect traits when they can get those gear pieces at 10K each from a trader, you are mistaken.

jaws343

Plus, what is the difference between Player A spending 10 hours in game grinding transmute stones and Player B spending 10 hours in game grinding the perfect gear pieces? More often than not, player A is actually doing something they enjoy while grinding the stones, like PVP. And Player B, they are just doing senseless farming. I'd imagine Player A sticks around the game for a lot longer than Player B who eventually gets frustrated with RNG and grinding overworld.

VaranisArano

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

Not quite sure how players transmuting gear means they aren't playing the game. Are they just transmuting this new gear and then quitting? They are transmuting gear for a reason, to play the game. The players you are talking about already have millions upon millions of gold. If you think they are wasting their time farming for perfect traits when they can get those gear pieces at 10K each from a trader, you are mistaken.

I'm not talking about overland gear - though making players grind to transmute overland jewelry is kind of brilliant, from ZOS' perspective. Used to be players could just buy what they want. Now, they have to play the game longer to get the crystals to get what they want. Brilliant!

Think about the type of gear most players grind for in the perfect trait.
PVE dungeon gear - ZOS really wants players playing those dungeons, especially if its the brand new DLC gear that, lets be honest, plenty of players would love to get their items in any trait, transmute, and be done running it. That's pretty bad for the longevity of your dungeon pack.

Trials are a bit different, since trials give transmute stones for completing them, and they aren't monetized in quite the same way as DLC dungeons.

So its more a problem of "Players transmute the new gear and then quit playing the new content we're trying to sell." in favor of doing whatever they were doing. Whereas ZOS would really like it to be "Players take a break from playing their favored content to go grind for new gear, get the new gear after running the new content a bunch of times or playing something else to get transmute stones, and then go back to playing their favored content." Its about how much time you can squeeze out of players.


For me, I see a very clear trend in the way ZOS wants players playing the game. They want Quantity of time over Quality. If you think about the way they've steadily increased the grinding aspects of this game in everything from jewelry crafting, dailies, the implementation of the Welkynar motif, and even the festivals for the indriik, ZOS wants us playing the game by grinding. If you have fun while doing that, that's secondary to their main goal, which is to increase the number of hours players are in ESO doing things that may or may not be fun or meaningful. For many players, more time in game means more money spent on the game, which is why ZOS is doing it. (This is also why the meta changes with every update. Horizontal Progression = time spent grinding to get back on top of the meta.)

No, that's not especially fun for most players. Yes, eventually players get tired and quit. But in the meantime, ZOS soaked a bunch more hours (and probably more money) out of those players than otherwise.


I may have an overly jaded opinion of why ZOS does some of these things. For me, it seems like a simply matter of money.

ZOS wants you and me to spend as much time as possible playing ESO, the idea being that the more time we spend, the healthier the overall game population is, and the more money most players will spend.

Changing transmute stones to make it easier and quicker for us to get the gear we want doesn't make sense from that perspective.

majulook

kringled_1 wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

The rewards Transmute stone rewards for PVE while usually low in number add up quick during events like this

I have 200 stones in inventory and over 300 in reward containers on various characters.

Once this event is over my crafters gonna make some low level gear and transmute it to Nirn and then I will research them for another character. If only transmuted gear was not account bound...

You can't do quite that, at least the last time I checked. Transmuted items can't be used for research.

Did not know you could not research transmuted items. So now I'm gonna transmute to Nirn and decon the items, then use what ever Nirn trait stones I get to make Nirn items that I can use for research on other characters.

Vildebill

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

Not quite sure how players transmuting gear means they aren't playing the game. Are they just transmuting this new gear and then quitting? They are transmuting gear for a reason, to play the game. The players you are talking about already have millions upon millions of gold. If you think they are wasting their time farming for perfect traits when they can get those gear pieces at 10K each from a trader, you are mistaken.

I'm not talking about overland gear - though making players grind to transmute overland jewelry is kind of brilliant, from ZOS' perspective. Used to be players could just buy what they want. Now, they have to play the game longer to get the crystals to get what they want. Brilliant!

Think about the type of gear most players grind for in the perfect trait.
PVE dungeon gear - ZOS really wants players playing those dungeons, especially if its the brand new DLC gear that, lets be honest, plenty of players would love to get their items in any trait, transmute, and be done running it. That's pretty bad for the longevity of your dungeon pack.

Trials are a bit different, since trials give transmute stones for completing them, and they aren't monetized in quite the same way as DLC dungeons.

So its more a problem of "Players transmute the new gear and then quit playing the new content we're trying to sell." in favor of doing whatever they were doing. Whereas ZOS would really like it to be "Players take a break from playing their favored content to go grind for new gear, get the new gear after running the new content a bunch of times or playing something else to get transmute stones, and then go back to playing their favored content." Its about how much time you can squeeze out of players.


For me, I see a very clear trend in the way ZOS wants players playing the game. They want Quantity of time over Quality. If you think about the way they've steadily increased the grinding aspects of this game in everything from jewelry crafting, dailies, the implementation of the Welkynar motif, and even the festivals for the indriik, ZOS wants us playing the game by grinding. If you have fun while doing that, that's secondary to their main goal, which is to increase the number of hours players are in ESO doing things that may or may not be fun or meaningful. For many players, more time in game means more money spent on the game, which is why ZOS is doing it. (This is also why the meta changes with every update. Horizontal Progression = time spent grinding to get back on top of the meta.)

No, that's not especially fun for most players. Yes, eventually players get tired and quit. But in the meantime, ZOS soaked a bunch more hours (and probably more money) out of those players than otherwise.


I may have an overly jaded opinion of why ZOS does some of these things. For me, it seems like a simply matter of money.

ZOS wants you and me to spend as much time as possible playing ESO, the idea being that the more time we spend, the healthier the overall game population is, and the more money most players will spend.

Changing transmute stones to make it easier and quicker for us to get the gear we want doesn't make sense from that perspective.

Obviously, a lot of this makes sense from ZOS's perspective, being able to milk time and money from players. Is it lucrative for them? Of course. Is it fun for us? Not really.

But what I don't understand is that you are going these lengths do defend the system, which is obviously created to keep players in the hamster wheel rather than creating a good gaming experience. The whole purpose of this thread is to point out that the management and storage situation of transmutation crystals is unsatisfactory for us, the players, and for some reason you stand on the other side and defend the system for, what I can read out, a single argument; that it makes sense that ZOS wants to make money.

If it was only an explanation of why the system is what it is, I would understand your point, but defending something that makes the game less attractive to play baffles me.

mjharper

Honestly, given that the only person that can use an item I've transmuted is me, I don't see why there should be a limit on crystals at all. Whether I grind for gear or crystals is irrelevant. Whether they're 'intended' to be a last resort is irrelevant (where's the evidence for that claim, anyway). Let me use my stuff in the way I want to use my stuff. Having unlimited crystals would literally hurt no-one.

richo262

50 Crystals + 25 Rekuta or 1 Kuta should craft a Retrait Stone.
Retrait stones can be sold on Guild Stores / Traded, or stored, and should stack.

That would solve it. If you want to store, it'll cost you.

VaranisArano

Vildebill wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

Not quite sure how players transmuting gear means they aren't playing the game. Are they just transmuting this new gear and then quitting? They are transmuting gear for a reason, to play the game. The players you are talking about already have millions upon millions of gold. If you think they are wasting their time farming for perfect traits when they can get those gear pieces at 10K each from a trader, you are mistaken.

I'm not talking about overland gear - though making players grind to transmute overland jewelry is kind of brilliant, from ZOS' perspective. Used to be players could just buy what they want. Now, they have to play the game longer to get the crystals to get what they want. Brilliant!

Think about the type of gear most players grind for in the perfect trait.
PVE dungeon gear - ZOS really wants players playing those dungeons, especially if its the brand new DLC gear that, lets be honest, plenty of players would love to get their items in any trait, transmute, and be done running it. That's pretty bad for the longevity of your dungeon pack.

Trials are a bit different, since trials give transmute stones for completing them, and they aren't monetized in quite the same way as DLC dungeons.

So its more a problem of "Players transmute the new gear and then quit playing the new content we're trying to sell." in favor of doing whatever they were doing. Whereas ZOS would really like it to be "Players take a break from playing their favored content to go grind for new gear, get the new gear after running the new content a bunch of times or playing something else to get transmute stones, and then go back to playing their favored content." Its about how much time you can squeeze out of players.


For me, I see a very clear trend in the way ZOS wants players playing the game. They want Quantity of time over Quality. If you think about the way they've steadily increased the grinding aspects of this game in everything from jewelry crafting, dailies, the implementation of the Welkynar motif, and even the festivals for the indriik, ZOS wants us playing the game by grinding. If you have fun while doing that, that's secondary to their main goal, which is to increase the number of hours players are in ESO doing things that may or may not be fun or meaningful. For many players, more time in game means more money spent on the game, which is why ZOS is doing it. (This is also why the meta changes with every update. Horizontal Progression = time spent grinding to get back on top of the meta.)

No, that's not especially fun for most players. Yes, eventually players get tired and quit. But in the meantime, ZOS soaked a bunch more hours (and probably more money) out of those players than otherwise.


I may have an overly jaded opinion of why ZOS does some of these things. For me, it seems like a simply matter of money.

ZOS wants you and me to spend as much time as possible playing ESO, the idea being that the more time we spend, the healthier the overall game population is, and the more money most players will spend.

Changing transmute stones to make it easier and quicker for us to get the gear we want doesn't make sense from that perspective.

Obviously, a lot of this makes sense from ZOS's perspective, being able to milk time and money from players. Is it lucrative for them? Of course. Is it fun for us? Not really.

But what I don't understand is that you are going these lengths do defend the system, which is obviously created to keep players in the hamster wheel rather than creating a good gaming experience. The whole purpose of this thread is to point out that the management and storage situation of transmutation crystals is unsatisfactory for us, the players, and for some reason you stand on the other side and defend the system for, what I can read out, a single argument; that it makes sense that ZOS wants to make money.

If it was only an explanation of why the system is what it is, I would understand your point, but defending something that makes the game less attractive to play baffles me.

I suppose I'm aiming more for an explanation...

Except that I do think that transmute stones function pretty well as they are for an average player who farms for gear and who uses them as a last resort to change trait, or sometimes make new jewelry. So for how ZOS intends them to be used, I think the system works fine.

I see most of the complaints coming from people who don't want to use the transmute stones as a last resort but make them more convenient to get or use, or who want to skip playing content to get them, or who want to hoard them to quickly change new gear with no downsides to hoarding. And I look at that and just think "Why would ZOS want to let you do that?"

Hence my explanations. My defense, as it is, is simply that Transmutation works pretty well as a part of the game if you use it as ZOS intended. If you want it to do more (like every other game system where people want more), you'll probably think it sucks.

If you want Transmutation extended, I think you'll have to persuade ZOS that the changes benefit the whole game, not just the players who want to use transmutation for more than ZOS intended. And personally, I don't think the proposed changes in this, or the other threads for that matter, actually benefit ZOS' vision for the entire game, as I've explained. Benefits the players who want convenient gear changes and less farming? Yes. Benefits ZOS' intent for how we play the game? No.

Vildebill

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

The thing is, this may have been true when transmute crystals were initially introduced. But an important thing has happened since then, Jewelry crafting. As far as I know, it is impossible to just go and farm for an infused necklace of Necropotence, or a protective necklace of whatever. You are forced to use transmute stones to gain these jewelry traits. Forced. There is no other way to obtain them on normal sets. It isn't about changing that sturdy chest to impen. It's about changing jewelry to actually utilize a crafting feature. The Transmute cap should have been removed with Summerset.

And you'll notice that ZOS didn't change the Transmute cap with jewelry crafting, yeah?

That's because, jewelry crafting or no, it suits their purposes for transmute stones to be rare or annoying to store.

What ZOS does not want:

*New Update drops with brand new sets*
*Everyone runs out, farms one of each item they need to be meta, transmutes it, and goes on with their regular gameplay*

Its okay if some players can do that. Mostly those are the PVP players who have tons and tons of geodes stacked up, because those are the players who (A.) probably weren't going to play the new content much anyway, and (B.) put time into the other parts of the game to acquire that many transmute stones in the first place.

But all this "Can I buy transmute stones from other players?" or "Transmute stones should be tradeable!" or "Why can't we stack/store more of them?" leads straight to the situation that ZOS wants to avoid. ZOS wants the majority of players to play the content to get the gear they want.


But what about Jewelry Crafting?

Its a really handy sink for transmute stones that impacts everyone, not just the meta chasers. It especially impacts the people who get the most transmute stones - PVPers and trial-running PVEers - because they are the most likely to need to transmute jewelry for their role.

Yeah, that sucks for people who want to transmute jewelry. But unfortunately for them, the cost of making that better as mentioned above, means making it easier for other players to skip playing the game. Which one do you think ZOS likes more, people playing the game as they grind for gear/transmute stones OR making players happy?

I'm betting on their pocketbook. They want players playing the game. Even if that means jewelry crafters complaining about having no other way to get the trait they want.

(The better solution, IMO, would be to change how jewelry crafting works so that transmutation isn't the only option. Honestly, if I had my way, Jewelry Crafting would get a complete overhaul. But the Devs designed it the way they did for a reason, there too.)


See, its not really about what the Players want. Players ultimately want a cheap, easy method to get the gear they want. The Devs want you to play the game as much as possible without being ever quite so grindy that you give up and quit the game. So until the Devs change their vision of transmute stones being a last resort to grinding for gear, I don't expect changes, not even because of jewelry crafting.

Not quite sure how players transmuting gear means they aren't playing the game. Are they just transmuting this new gear and then quitting? They are transmuting gear for a reason, to play the game. The players you are talking about already have millions upon millions of gold. If you think they are wasting their time farming for perfect traits when they can get those gear pieces at 10K each from a trader, you are mistaken.

I'm not talking about overland gear - though making players grind to transmute overland jewelry is kind of brilliant, from ZOS' perspective. Used to be players could just buy what they want. Now, they have to play the game longer to get the crystals to get what they want. Brilliant!

Think about the type of gear most players grind for in the perfect trait.
PVE dungeon gear - ZOS really wants players playing those dungeons, especially if its the brand new DLC gear that, lets be honest, plenty of players would love to get their items in any trait, transmute, and be done running it. That's pretty bad for the longevity of your dungeon pack.

Trials are a bit different, since trials give transmute stones for completing them, and they aren't monetized in quite the same way as DLC dungeons.

So its more a problem of "Players transmute the new gear and then quit playing the new content we're trying to sell." in favor of doing whatever they were doing. Whereas ZOS would really like it to be "Players take a break from playing their favored content to go grind for new gear, get the new gear after running the new content a bunch of times or playing something else to get transmute stones, and then go back to playing their favored content." Its about how much time you can squeeze out of players.


For me, I see a very clear trend in the way ZOS wants players playing the game. They want Quantity of time over Quality. If you think about the way they've steadily increased the grinding aspects of this game in everything from jewelry crafting, dailies, the implementation of the Welkynar motif, and even the festivals for the indriik, ZOS wants us playing the game by grinding. If you have fun while doing that, that's secondary to their main goal, which is to increase the number of hours players are in ESO doing things that may or may not be fun or meaningful. For many players, more time in game means more money spent on the game, which is why ZOS is doing it. (This is also why the meta changes with every update. Horizontal Progression = time spent grinding to get back on top of the meta.)

No, that's not especially fun for most players. Yes, eventually players get tired and quit. But in the meantime, ZOS soaked a bunch more hours (and probably more money) out of those players than otherwise.


I may have an overly jaded opinion of why ZOS does some of these things. For me, it seems like a simply matter of money.

ZOS wants you and me to spend as much time as possible playing ESO, the idea being that the more time we spend, the healthier the overall game population is, and the more money most players will spend.

Changing transmute stones to make it easier and quicker for us to get the gear we want doesn't make sense from that perspective.

Obviously, a lot of this makes sense from ZOS's perspective, being able to milk time and money from players. Is it lucrative for them? Of course. Is it fun for us? Not really.

But what I don't understand is that you are going these lengths do defend the system, which is obviously created to keep players in the hamster wheel rather than creating a good gaming experience. The whole purpose of this thread is to point out that the management and storage situation of transmutation crystals is unsatisfactory for us, the players, and for some reason you stand on the other side and defend the system for, what I can read out, a single argument; that it makes sense that ZOS wants to make money.

If it was only an explanation of why the system is what it is, I would understand your point, but defending something that makes the game less attractive to play baffles me.

I suppose I'm aiming more for an explanation...

Except that I do think that transmute stones function pretty well as they are for an average player who farms for gear and who uses them as a last resort to change trait, or sometimes make new jewelry. So for how ZOS intends them to be used, I think the system works fine.

I see most of the complaints coming from people who don't want to use the transmute stones as a last resort but make them more convenient to get or use, or who want to skip playing content to get them, or who want to hoard them to quickly change new gear with no downsides to hoarding. And I look at that and just think "Why would ZOS want to let you do that?"

Hence my explanations. My defense, as it is, is simply that Transmutation works pretty well as a part of the game if you use it as ZOS intended. If you want it to do more (like every other game system where people want more), you'll probably think it sucks.

If you want Transmutation extended, I think you'll have to persuade ZOS that the changes benefit the whole game, not just the players who want to use transmutation for more than ZOS intended. And personally, I don't think the proposed changes in this, or the other threads for that matter, actually benefit ZOS' vision for the entire game, as I've explained. Benefits the players who want convenient gear changes and less farming? Yes. Benefits ZOS' intent for how we play the game? No.

Well, if ZOS intended transmutation to be a last resort thing, like only be able to re-trait that last set piece that don't drop in a preferred trait, that system has already crashed. Like I've stated many times before, it's not hard to get crystals, it's not hard to re-trait a whole set after one dungeon run if you've been saving up on crystals. It's only annoying to manage them. They're still there on your account, just in a ridiculous way as it is now, stored in multiple geodes, since there's a cap. Like no other currency we have, except for event tickets (and those can not be saved/stored in containers).

So, this whole last resort argument is not even valid anyway. It does not work like that. The only thing that suffers now is the player's patience to keep managing storage. Because that is what this problem boils down to. Just like it is now with bank and backpack storage, which both hasn't been extended since launch except for ESO+ some years back.

For me, that argument makes sense, it would benefit the whole game if players could stop caring about boring stuff as managing storage, currencies and items, and be able to focus on playing the fantastic game we have instead.

Jameliel

VaranisArano wrote: »

Annoyance is the point.

Transmute crystals are supposed to be a last resort to get an item you've been griding for, not a replacement for farming, nor a hoard of crystals that lets you theorycraft as much as you want or transmute new set gear almost as soon as new content drops.

So ZOS makes it annoying to hoard up crystals. Limited currency space, filling up inventory, and restrictions on storing geodes are working as intended. Sure, players can store more if they want, but ZOS makes it annoying to do so.

Most players want transmute stones to be an easily available convenience that saves them from having to farm for gear. That's not what ZOS wants - ZOS wants you playing the game a lot to get your gear, with transmute crystals only added as a last resort.

I could are less what zos wants. They primarily want our money, and obviously they have gotten and continue to get tons of it. Transmutation crystal limits need to be removed. Period point blank. Its idiotic, and people parroting for the limit are robotic.

redlink1979

Were you around when there weren't transmute crystals at all? That was annoying.

Prof_Bawbag

siddique wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

About the nirn, don't you need the nirn in your inv in the first place as to transmute the weapon?

You just need to have researched the trait.

If that's the case, I'll soon assert market dominance with my 2 monthly (taking into account not every decon will grant the nirn back) potent nirns. True p2w right there. I'm still pondering what I can do with that extra 30k per month, though.

Vildebill

redlink1979 wrote: »

Were you around when there weren't transmute crystals at all? That was annoying.

Been around since beta. So yeah. And your argument is because it was worse before it can't be better now?

sudaki_eso

Its fine as it is, if you have nothing to transmute anymore why do you want to hoard more crystals? With 200 you can transmute 4 parts of any upcoming gear you need/want and you would only have to farm one piece in the trait you want. If you keep 50 unopend in your inventory you can even transmute all the pieces if needed...

mjharper

sudaki_eso wrote: »

Its fine as it is, if you have nothing to transmute anymore why do you want to hoard more crystals? With 200 you can transmute 4 parts of any upcoming gear you need/want and you would only have to farm one piece in the trait you want. If you keep 50 unopend in your inventory you can even transmute all the pieces if needed...

Right, because most gear sets in the game consist of 4 parts, and I just love having unopened boxes lying around in my inventory, or clogging up my email.

sudaki_eso

mjharper wrote: »

Right, because most gear sets in the game consist of 4 parts, and I just love having unopened boxes lying around in my inventory, or clogging up my email.

The ability to read a post til the end helps...i said: With 200 you can transmute 4 parts of any upcoming gear you need/want and you would only have to farm one piece in the trait you want.

So farming one piece in the right trait is a huge problem or inconvienice for you?
You dont want them in your inventory, destroy them or as i said transmute gear for your toons. I dont get this hoarding mentality....

jaws343

sudaki_eso wrote: »

mjharper wrote: »

Right, because most gear sets in the game consist of 4 parts, and I just love having unopened boxes lying around in my inventory, or clogging up my email.

The ability to read a post til the end helps...i said: With 200 you can transmute 4 parts of any upcoming gear you need/want and you would only have to farm one piece in the trait you want.

So farming one piece in the right trait is a huge problem or inconvienice for you?
You dont want them in your inventory, destroy them or as i said transmute gear for your toons. I dont get this hoarding mentality....

Some people have 15 toons that serve different PVE and PVP purposes. It isn't a hoarding mentality.

Starlock

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want Transmutation extended, I think you'll have to persuade ZOS that the changes benefit the whole game, not just the players who want to use transmutation for more than ZOS intended. And personally, I don't think the proposed changes in this, or the other threads for that matter, actually benefit ZOS' vision for the entire game, as I've explained. Benefits the players who want convenient gear changes and less farming? Yes. Benefits ZOS' intent for how we play the game? No.

I don't for one moment believe that Zenimax is blind to the fact that grind game discourages many players from playing their game. The story being told here is that "they want us playing the game, therefore grind game." That works, except when it doesn't. There are many of us who simply do not bother with various content because of it. In these cases, reducing grind game encourages us to play more, not less.

mongoLC

The players want more transmutation crystal storage and are paying customers.
ZOS should just stop pissing people off and take the cap off. I also do like the idea of them being trade/sold as well.

zaria

Starlock wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want Transmutation extended, I think you'll have to persuade ZOS that the changes benefit the whole game, not just the players who want to use transmutation for more than ZOS intended. And personally, I don't think the proposed changes in this, or the other threads for that matter, actually benefit ZOS' vision for the entire game, as I've explained. Benefits the players who want convenient gear changes and less farming? Yes. Benefits ZOS' intent for how we play the game? No.

I don't for one moment believe that Zenimax is blind to the fact that grind game discourages many players from playing their game. The story being told here is that "they want us playing the game, therefore grind game." That works, except when it doesn't. There are many of us who simply do not bother with various content because of it. In these cases, reducing grind game encourages us to play more, not less.

As its now its pretty easy to get 50 crystal geodes, do non cp 30 day campaign and set it as main, get 25K AP for level 1, its almost as causal as dolmen groups, way more than normal craglorn trials.
do this on lots of alts.

Any changes is likely to be nerfs.
Current system has two benefits it make it easy for PvP players to get gear and it get more players to get into PvP who plenty end up enjoying.

And the transmute system was probably an response to the sharpened meta who was before it. Anything expect crafted or overland weapons if rich was pure fantasy, as drop chances was less than apex mounts from crown crates.
Yes you have some who did vMA more than 500 times for one drop, Khajiit hide in an corner.

bulbousb16_ESO

redlink1979 wrote: »

Were you around when there weren't transmute crystals at all? That was annoying.

I just came back after an absence, and transmutation is new to me. If I understand correctly, transmutation lets you change the TRAIT on an item but not the motif? Doesn't that miss the mark entirely?

Taleof2Cities

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

Were you around when there weren't transmute crystals at all? That was annoying.

I just came back after an absence, and transmutation is new to me. If I understand correctly, transmutation lets you change the TRAIT on an item but not the motif? Doesn't that miss the mark entirely?

That's right @bulbousb16_ESO.

It changes the trait on any weapons, armor, or jewelry.

You can use the Transmute Station in Clockwork City, or, find a friend or guildie that has a station at their house or guild hall.

Note that the character performing the trait change must know the transmuted trait.

In addition, transmuting jewelry is currently gated behind the Summerset chapter's jewelry crafting (might change in June, but that's the way it's set up now).

Faulgor

The transmutation cap is silly because it doesn't prevent hoarding, it just makes it more of a hassle for your inventory space. Over my 15 chars I have ~100 golden geodes and ~300 RotW boxes.

If they don't remove the cap, the next best thing would be to make geodes stackable. Or any container for that matter.

richo262

Faulgor wrote: »

The transmutation cap is silly because it doesn't prevent hoarding, it just makes it more of a hassle for your inventory space. Over my 15 chars I have ~100 golden geodes and ~300 RotW boxes.

If they don't remove the cap, the next best thing would be to make geodes stackable. Or any container for that matter.

I had a similar problem too then I went on a transmute spree, still have about 150+ crystals in their boxes.

They should just make it infinite but ESO+ members get 10% more crystals rounded up. So a green drops 1.1 (2) crystals, if they get 5, it should be 5.5 (rounded to 6).

After you have 200 crystals stored (300 for ESO+), what you get in the box and what gets deposited is halved. This can be because your cache of crystals is becoming 'unstable'. If you get a drop of 10 crystals you can either store them to claim them later when you are under 200 crystals or claim them if you are over 200, but you only 5 get deposited, 5 get destroyed. This encourages people to spend before they hit 200, but also allows people to redeem them if they either don't care or just want their inventory back.

I still think that you should be able to craft a retrait stone at a transmute / enchanting table using 50 Crystals and 25 Rekuta. Or perhaps 60 crystals and 25 Rekuta, as a cost of storing them. Retrait stones are stackable, and possibly tradeable.

f047ys3v3n

Whatever the intention of their system, the result of it for me is that I have ~250 inventory slots across many characters filled with nothing but un-cracked transmute geodes. 50 of these are on just one toon and they are all 50x geodes and the other 200 are 4-25x geodes.

The net result of the rules of transmute stones is just another poorly planned system that needlessly soaks up inventory space in a game that has major inventory management problems. Simply put, it is more efficient for me to stockpile geodes than to stockpile right traited gear that might become a good set in the next update with the understanding that I can quickly farm any set provided I have the stones to transmute to the correct trait on hand. With that in mind I have the stones on hand to transmute 50+ items at any given time. It's no like I need the gold from selling nirncrux and I don't have any more stuff that I want to transmute now so it is pretty much just a cast of the stones pile up being worth more than anything else that might occupy that inventory space in their place.

Obviously I would prefer to be able to sell stones to other players or to craft bag an unlimited amount over the current system.

bulbousb16_ESO

Why don't transmutation stations allow you to change the style of a piece instead of/in addition to a trait? I thought that was the whole point.

VaranisArano

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Why don't transmutation stations allow you to change the style of a piece instead of/in addition to a trait? I thought that was the whole point.

That would be the point of the Oufit Station, which doesn't allow you to change the style of the item itself, but does allow you to change the appearance of all your equipped items through your outfit.

crowfl56

WOW what a bunch of whinners

Grow up and L2P

sheeesh complain complain complain

There are much worse problems in this game other than how to get or even manage Trans crystals

Its easy if you use your brain