Reflective Plate still no 4 seconds of immunity after Patch 5.0.2

Xvorg

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Fm: 4s immunity, major brutality (extremely easy buff to get access to)
- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion (difficult and strong buff to get)
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force. Kinda a broken skill atm with its super duper low cost (I would definitely suggest to increase its cost post psijic passive reduction by at least 1k), but it has a relatively rare buff to get (minor force) and a relatively easy one to get (major expedition)
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion
- Wings: 2s expedition, 50% damage reduction from range attacks. An extremely strong buff, unique, and literally a game changer.

You seriously, seriously think a buff like wings should just get randomly buffed because...reasons? Compare it to:
- Fm: why would someone use fm? A skill that is linked to a skill line and gives u a buff that even pots can provide you?
- Doubld take: it has double the immunity but also half the damage mitigation from less skills. Relatively balanced compared to wings. Less passive defense, more mobility, makes sense.
- Shuffle: wings are already stronger now, if you buff them there's not even a comparison to be made anymore. Shuffle giving 4s immunity will make it equal to the new double take, bringing us back to the point above.

Ranged attacks?

Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.

It says projectiles. It doesn't save you from AoE or channels (like JB, Bow ulti or Soul assault).

Please, try to be accurate when referring to a what a skill will do.

Crushing Shock is not a projectile as well. It falls under category: beam type attacks just as soul assault or jesus beam. But Shimmering Shield is catching Crushing Shock which is strange.

He even mentioned 2s expedition on wings which is also incorrect. Trying to condradict a consistency request without even studying what the skill does. Very well.

Yup, but according to some people "you can't kill Dks with force shock"...

Sheuib

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

RAT is way to cheap. One of the Core mechanics in Eso were that defencive abilitys cost more than the offensive ones (besides some exceptions) But rat is just overbuffed, snare removal, speed, sprint reduction, crit dmg.. there is no reason to play another snare removal

Sprint reduction is being removed for snare removal. RAT is the ability that finally puts magicka builds on an equal mobility as Stam builds and all the Stam players are freaking out about it.

Maybe it's not just about stam being more mobile than mag, maybe it's also about what side effects this causes? If you'd bothered to read former comments you'd seen that heavy stam is now just as mobile, strong and able to heal as medium stam. RAT allows you to use Rally & SnB in heavy and still have on demand maj Exp, snare immunity, burst heal etc. without any drawbacks. So why choose medium in the first place?

You are totally ignoring my point. RAT is the only real source of snare immunity for a magicka build and don’t bring up mist form because that is crap. And, the only good source of major expedition for some magicka builds, ie templars. Forward momentum has 3 benefits, weapon damage, snare immunity, and a heal over time. So why shouldn’t RAT have 3 benefits. This is very much a stam vs magicka issue. Anyone that thinks it isn’t obviously doesn’t play magicka builds. Stop trying to keep the gap between builds in favor of stam.

With the tiny difference that mag can stand its ground a fuckton better on average than stam. Without a snare removal on my magnb I don't have many issues surviving until some chimp spamming aoe snares comes in, if I do the same on my stamnb I'm dead in 0.2s. Same thing on my templars, actually with them it's even more emphasized. Stamsorc & magsorc same thing.

That’s the whole point. You have to stand your ground with a magicka build because you can’t get away. Which means you have to build more defense vs offense and ultimately be weaker than a stam build.

Sheuib

Xvorg wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Fm: 4s immunity, major brutality (extremely easy buff to get access to)
- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion (difficult and strong buff to get)
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force. Kinda a broken skill atm with its super duper low cost (I would definitely suggest to increase its cost post psijic passive reduction by at least 1k), but it has a relatively rare buff to get (minor force) and a relatively easy one to get (major expedition)
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion
- Wings: 2s expedition, 50% damage reduction from range attacks. An extremely strong buff, unique, and literally a game changer.

You seriously, seriously think a buff like wings should just get randomly buffed because...reasons? Compare it to:
- Fm: why would someone use fm? A skill that is linked to a skill line and gives u a buff that even pots can provide you?
- Doubld take: it has double the immunity but also half the damage mitigation from less skills. Relatively balanced compared to wings. Less passive defense, more mobility, makes sense.
- Shuffle: wings are already stronger now, if you buff them there's not even a comparison to be made anymore. Shuffle giving 4s immunity will make it equal to the new double take, bringing us back to the point above.

Ranged attacks?

Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.

It says projectiles. It doesn't save you from AoE or channels (like JB, Bow ulti or Soul assault).

Please, try to be accurate when referring to a what a skill will do.

Crushing Shock is not a projectile as well. It falls under category: beam type attacks just as soul assault or jesus beam. But Shimmering Shield is catching Crushing Shock which is strange.

He even mentioned 2s expedition on wings which is also incorrect. Trying to condradict a consistency request without even studying what the skill does. Very well.

Yup, but according to some people "you can't kill Dks with force shock"...

If that is all you have to shoot at them you won’t kill them.

pieratsos

Xvorg wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Fm: 4s immunity, major brutality (extremely easy buff to get access to)
- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion (difficult and strong buff to get)
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force. Kinda a broken skill atm with its super duper low cost (I would definitely suggest to increase its cost post psijic passive reduction by at least 1k), but it has a relatively rare buff to get (minor force) and a relatively easy one to get (major expedition)
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion
- Wings: 2s expedition, 50% damage reduction from range attacks. An extremely strong buff, unique, and literally a game changer.

You seriously, seriously think a buff like wings should just get randomly buffed because...reasons? Compare it to:
- Fm: why would someone use fm? A skill that is linked to a skill line and gives u a buff that even pots can provide you?
- Doubld take: it has double the immunity but also half the damage mitigation from less skills. Relatively balanced compared to wings. Less passive defense, more mobility, makes sense.
- Shuffle: wings are already stronger now, if you buff them there's not even a comparison to be made anymore. Shuffle giving 4s immunity will make it equal to the new double take, bringing us back to the point above.

Ranged attacks?

Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.

It says projectiles. It doesn't save you from AoE or channels (like JB, Bow ulti or Soul assault).

Please, try to be accurate when referring to a what a skill will do.

Crushing Shock is not a projectile as well. It falls under category: beam type attacks just as soul assault or jesus beam. But Shimmering Shield is catching Crushing Shock which is strange.

He even mentioned 2s expedition on wings which is also incorrect. Trying to condradict a consistency request without even studying what the skill does. Very well.

Yup, but according to some people "you can't kill Dks with force shock"...

By spamming force shock? Yeah you most certainly cant unless the player skill difference is that big. At which point the skill not being good enough isnt the issue but the player not being good enough is the actual issue.

Ayastigi

Sheuib wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

RAT is way to cheap. One of the Core mechanics in Eso were that defencive abilitys cost more than the offensive ones (besides some exceptions) But rat is just overbuffed, snare removal, speed, sprint reduction, crit dmg.. there is no reason to play another snare removal

Sprint reduction is being removed for snare removal. RAT is the ability that finally puts magicka builds on an equal mobility as Stam builds and all the Stam players are freaking out about it.

Maybe it's not just about stam being more mobile than mag, maybe it's also about what side effects this causes? If you'd bothered to read former comments you'd seen that heavy stam is now just as mobile, strong and able to heal as medium stam. RAT allows you to use Rally & SnB in heavy and still have on demand maj Exp, snare immunity, burst heal etc. without any drawbacks. So why choose medium in the first place?

You are totally ignoring my point. RAT is the only real source of snare immunity for a magicka build and don’t bring up mist form because that is crap. And, the only good source of major expedition for some magicka builds, ie templars. Forward momentum has 3 benefits, weapon damage, snare immunity, and a heal over time. So why shouldn’t RAT have 3 benefits. This is very much a stam vs magicka issue. Anyone that thinks it isn’t obviously doesn’t play magicka builds. Stop trying to keep the gap between builds in favor of stam.

How is mist form crap? It has three benefits too major expedition, snare removal, and damage reduction..

Sanguinor2

Ayastigi wrote: »

How is mist form crap? It has three benefits too major expedition, snare removal, and damage reduction..

Because you are forced into Vamp aka fire Damage and dawnbreaker will make you explode, you dont heal and you dont recover mag and oblivion Damage will still hit for full and you cant outheal it.

Nerftheforums

Xvorg wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Fm: 4s immunity, major brutality (extremely easy buff to get access to)
- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion (difficult and strong buff to get)
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force. Kinda a broken skill atm with its super duper low cost (I would definitely suggest to increase its cost post psijic passive reduction by at least 1k), but it has a relatively rare buff to get (minor force) and a relatively easy one to get (major expedition)
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion
- Wings: 2s expedition, 50% damage reduction from range attacks. An extremely strong buff, unique, and literally a game changer.

You seriously, seriously think a buff like wings should just get randomly buffed because...reasons? Compare it to:
- Fm: why would someone use fm? A skill that is linked to a skill line and gives u a buff that even pots can provide you?
- Doubld take: it has double the immunity but also half the damage mitigation from less skills. Relatively balanced compared to wings. Less passive defense, more mobility, makes sense.
- Shuffle: wings are already stronger now, if you buff them there's not even a comparison to be made anymore. Shuffle giving 4s immunity will make it equal to the new double take, bringing us back to the point above.

Ranged attacks?

Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.

It says projectiles. It doesn't save you from AoE or channels (like JB, Bow ulti or Soul assault).

Please, try to be accurate when referring to a what a skill will do.

You are right, it's projectiles, my lapsus.

Blinkin8r

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Olupajmibanan

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

Davadin

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Wait. When did they change shuffle? Isnt it still .5 seconds per medium armor piece equipped? So even with full medium armor you only get 3.5 seconds.

Besides that I kinda agree with OP on this one, but again it might have scary/unfun side effects such as heavy armor stamdks in crest/fury that could run rally instead of forward momentum for a burst heal with access to major mending and major vitality (through lingering health/vitality pots, usually what 1hs stamdks run for open world) and just tank for days with a burst heal added to their kit while they retain root and snare immunity through class utility.

Not really much of a matter thanks to built-in immobilize immunity we have all as of Elsweyr. Also, Race Against Time is widely available for everyone, so what you written will be true even if Reflective Plate remains unchanged.

True, forgot about race against time, elsweyr pvp is gonna be such a sh!tshow, but they might still change race against time, because the way it is now, is just upright stupid, spend a little magicka for snare/root immunity, major expedition and minor force. And that on an ability which is an instant cast rather than a channel seems way to overloaded.

oh be quiet you. stop putting spotlight. im happy with this lol

im using it now in PvP in LIVE server and its already so good......... hell i use it even to run around getting my writs done.

ArenGesus

I don't feel like plate needs an adjustment. If you're playing mag you have the resource pool and regen to spam this or slot RAT along side of it.

But shuffle could use an increase to snare immunity. Medium is brutal right now and rally seems necessary for the heal. For my stam DK, with limited mag pool and regen, that leaves me with shuffle. Interestingly, the spec for RAT seems much more suitable for a medium build than for mag - to me it almost seems like RAT and shuffle could be swapped between the two skill lines and they would make more sense that way.

Sanguinor2

ArenGesus wrote: »

I don't feel like plate needs an adjustment. If you're playing mag you have the resource pool and regen to spam this or slot RAT along side of it.

But shuffle could use an increase to snare immunity. Medium is brutal right now and rally seems necessary for the heal. For my stam DK, with limited mag pool and regen, that leaves me with shuffle. Interestingly, the spec for RAT seems much more suitable for a medium build than for mag - to me it almost seems like RAT and shuffle could be swapped between the two skill lines and they would make more sense that way.

The reason why plate could use the Adjustment is exactly what you said that you can just Slot RAT alongside the other Morph Dfs, plate will most likely be dead because the other Morph offers something alongside the ranged Mitigation, but plate is just so inferior for mobility if compared to RAT.
I agree with Shuffle tho, nightblades getting a mag Shuffle with less restrictions but longer Duration is downright insulting for medium armor Players that run Shuffle.

ArenGesus

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

I don't feel like plate needs an adjustment. If you're playing mag you have the resource pool and regen to spam this or slot RAT along side of it.

But shuffle could use an increase to snare immunity. Medium is brutal right now and rally seems necessary for the heal. For my stam DK, with limited mag pool and regen, that leaves me with shuffle. Interestingly, the spec for RAT seems much more suitable for a medium build than for mag - to me it almost seems like RAT and shuffle could be swapped between the two skill lines and they would make more sense that way.

The reason why plate could use the Adjustment is exactly what you said that you can just Slot RAT alongside the other Morph Dfs, plate will most likely be dead because the other Morph offers something alongside the ranged Mitigation, but plate is just so inferior for mobility if compared to RAT.
I agree with Shuffle tho, nightblades getting a mag Shuffle with less restrictions but longer Duration is downright insulting for medium armor Players that run Shuffle.

That could be true, with regard to plate becoming basically obsolete. I guess I haven't spent as much time thinking about my mag DK build for pts as I have for my stam (where bar space is tiiiight and the mag seems hard to come by for support skills). My thought was that if bar space is also tight on my mag, I would still spam plate just like I do today - whereas on my stam I feel really hemmed in by available options. I'll stick with shuffle regardless, because the 25% aoe reduction feels necessary to me in medium too, but major expedition is unavailable to me without pots currently so I don't quite know for sure yet.

Maybe instead of an equal duration it would be nice to remove one negative effect - I would accept that for both plate and shuffle because then at least spamming it gets you something of benefit with each reapplication. And the damage mitigation isn't nothing in both cases. Stam dk in particular has no good access to purge, so I would consider that a really nice buff.

Jeezye

Both wings and shuffle should be buffed, period. 4s to wings, 4 to shuffle + per piece armor worn. Heck, shuffle is so expensive and provides so little in direkt comparison to double take that I wouldn’t even mind to see major expedition on top, to give medium build their speed back finally

Sheuib

Ayastigi wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

RAT is way to cheap. One of the Core mechanics in Eso were that defencive abilitys cost more than the offensive ones (besides some exceptions) But rat is just overbuffed, snare removal, speed, sprint reduction, crit dmg.. there is no reason to play another snare removal

Sprint reduction is being removed for snare removal. RAT is the ability that finally puts magicka builds on an equal mobility as Stam builds and all the Stam players are freaking out about it.

Maybe it's not just about stam being more mobile than mag, maybe it's also about what side effects this causes? If you'd bothered to read former comments you'd seen that heavy stam is now just as mobile, strong and able to heal as medium stam. RAT allows you to use Rally & SnB in heavy and still have on demand maj Exp, snare immunity, burst heal etc. without any drawbacks. So why choose medium in the first place?

You are totally ignoring my point. RAT is the only real source of snare immunity for a magicka build and don’t bring up mist form because that is crap. And, the only good source of major expedition for some magicka builds, ie templars. Forward momentum has 3 benefits, weapon damage, snare immunity, and a heal over time. So why shouldn’t RAT have 3 benefits. This is very much a stam vs magicka issue. Anyone that thinks it isn’t obviously doesn’t play magicka builds. Stop trying to keep the gap between builds in favor of stam.

How is mist form crap? It has three benefits too major expedition, snare removal, and damage reduction..

You can’t use any skills while in mist form. You don’t regen resources. All the negative effects of being a vampire. And, someone sprinting actually moves faster than you so you actually can’t get away.

I love it when someone tries to get away from me using mist. I use that time to reapply my buffs and put debuffs on him. The whole time just running right next to him.

Sheuib

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Olupajmibanan

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

wheem_ESO

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

Wanna trade?

ecru

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Those other abilities don't reduce ranged damage by 50%, so that's another inconsistency.

All of these abilities have their main effects (strong HoT and Major Brutality, Major Expedition and Minor Force, Projectile Mitigation etc.) and a side effect (brief immunity to snares and immobilizes).
Main effects are completely different and skill defining. What are we asking for is to bring in line duration of the side effect on all these abilities. It's the exactly same side effect on all these abilities but with different duration. That's a huge inconsistency if you ask.

I have to at least partially disagree. The far and away #1 reason to use Race Against Time (assuming it goes live as it is now) is the snare/root immunity. On live, it's actually extremely rare to see the ability used in Battlegrounds, but I expect that to change very soon, due solely to the immunity.

Personally, I think ZOS has probably gone too far with the anti-snare/root mechanics in this patch (at least for everyone that has Summerset), and overcorrected the problem. It probably would have been better to start with a more modest approach: implement the timed root immunity after you get rooted, which I've requested before, along with perhaps some nerfs to specific abilities', plus a reduction in the drawbacks of Vampirism, then see where that leaves us.

Snares and roots both need to be in the game, and both need to be useful for PvP, but not something that was quite as spammable and easy to apply as before (especially in the case of roots). Now I think the pendulum has probably swung too far the other way. (But with BGs no longer really happening on the PTS, it's hard to say for sure)

What game are you playing where 4 seconds of immunity has somehow overcorrected crowd control that could be permanent? Have you ever played any other mmos? This isn't normal, the direction zos went by putting cc on every ability and little/no diminishing returns or immunity timers are things other games moved past a decade ago because players hated those mechanics. We need less cc, not more. They didn't do enough. Whoever it is at zos that was having a love affair with permanent crowd control needs to look at literally every other game in existence and go sit in the corner for a bit while the adults sort things out.

wheem_ESO

ecru wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Those other abilities don't reduce ranged damage by 50%, so that's another inconsistency.

All of these abilities have their main effects (strong HoT and Major Brutality, Major Expedition and Minor Force, Projectile Mitigation etc.) and a side effect (brief immunity to snares and immobilizes).
Main effects are completely different and skill defining. What are we asking for is to bring in line duration of the side effect on all these abilities. It's the exactly same side effect on all these abilities but with different duration. That's a huge inconsistency if you ask.

I have to at least partially disagree. The far and away #1 reason to use Race Against Time (assuming it goes live as it is now) is the snare/root immunity. On live, it's actually extremely rare to see the ability used in Battlegrounds, but I expect that to change very soon, due solely to the immunity.

Personally, I think ZOS has probably gone too far with the anti-snare/root mechanics in this patch (at least for everyone that has Summerset), and overcorrected the problem. It probably would have been better to start with a more modest approach: implement the timed root immunity after you get rooted, which I've requested before, along with perhaps some nerfs to specific abilities', plus a reduction in the drawbacks of Vampirism, then see where that leaves us.

Snares and roots both need to be in the game, and both need to be useful for PvP, but not something that was quite as spammable and easy to apply as before (especially in the case of roots). Now I think the pendulum has probably swung too far the other way. (But with BGs no longer really happening on the PTS, it's hard to say for sure)

What game are you playing where 4 seconds of immunity has somehow overcorrected crowd control that could be permanent? Have you ever played any other mmos? This isn't normal, the direction zos went by putting cc on every ability and little/no diminishing returns or immunity timers are things other games moved past a decade ago because players hated those mechanics. We need less cc, not more. They didn't do enough. Whoever it is at zos that was having a love affair with permanent crowd control needs to look at literally every other game in existence and go sit in the corner for a bit while the adults sort things out.

I've played multiple other MMOs, and as far as I can remember, all had at least some spammable snares without widespread, spammable immunity. That 4 seconds of immunity would be totally fine in games where abilities often have cooldowns, but the fact that it's spammable is a bit of an issue.

Sheuib

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

I agree that snare immunity should be a standard 4 seconds from all sources. I would even be ok with allowing shuffle to be a rule breaker consider mobility is a medium armor thing. Something like 1 second per piece of medium armor would be appropriate.

Aedaryl

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

Wings give you passively 12% healing recieve.

brandonv516

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force.
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion

Literally all you need to know about mobile medium armor. They should increase shuffle to 0.8s per piece or change "Athletics" to movement speed increase (and maybe readjust values, 10% in 5 medium is essentially a free Steed)

BTW what was that dev comment about "if you want good mobility, you have to heavily invest in it"? Because using 3 jewel traits, a specific potion and mundus, armor weight or weapon wasn't a good enough trade off - they just throw it all in the bin and gave everyone a far superior mobility tool with next to no trade off.

They seem dead set to push this to live. Which is why I don't want to see a cost increase "so stam can't use it".
Wasn't mobility a selling point of going stam? Why should they be pigeonholed into 2H or subpar medium + shuffle AND a standalone source of on demand major expedition (Bow, DW - pots have too long CD) while magicka get's cheap access to it all?

You are heavily investing in purchasing Summerset, so it's not like they were lying.

satanio

Aedaryl wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

Wings give you passively 12% healing recieve.

And race against time can deal dmg... what is this, contest of whose spaghett is longer?

Wings should have 4 snare second immunity or it´ll be just another dead spell in DK skillset.

Olupajmibanan

Aedaryl wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

Wings give you passively 12% healing recieve.

You are wrong. You get Burning Heart buff (+12% healing received) for having Draconic ability active, not slotted. You have (or at least should have) Spiked Armor active all the time. On top of that, as magDK, you have Coagulating Blood active. If wings add anything to your Burning Heart uptime, that means you are bad at managing your buffs.

seventyfive

The dragon fire scale morph is great. Those wings are still a good and useful ability, even after the nerf.

One could not say the same about Protective Plate unfortunately, and it's hard to justify its cost of 3510.

StamDKs unfortunately will not have access to the dragon fire scale due to the mag-only scaling.


A few simple solutions would be to:


* Make dragon fire scale with your highest offensive stats to let stamdks use it as well.

OR

* Slightly reduce the cost of the Protective plate morph (3510 -> 3000).

(NOTE: The Protective plate is already slightly cheaper (3510 vs 3780) due to the fact that its cost reduces as it ranks up but this is far from enough to make the morph competitive)

OR

* Make the immunity duration more attractive (2 -> 3/3.5/4 sec)


Regards,
seventyfive

BlackMadara

ecru wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Those other abilities don't reduce ranged damage by 50%, so that's another inconsistency.

All of these abilities have their main effects (strong HoT and Major Brutality, Major Expedition and Minor Force, Projectile Mitigation etc.) and a side effect (brief immunity to snares and immobilizes).
Main effects are completely different and skill defining. What are we asking for is to bring in line duration of the side effect on all these abilities. It's the exactly same side effect on all these abilities but with different duration. That's a huge inconsistency if you ask.

I have to at least partially disagree. The far and away #1 reason to use Race Against Time (assuming it goes live as it is now) is the snare/root immunity. On live, it's actually extremely rare to see the ability used in Battlegrounds, but I expect that to change very soon, due solely to the immunity.

Personally, I think ZOS has probably gone too far with the anti-snare/root mechanics in this patch (at least for everyone that has Summerset), and overcorrected the problem. It probably would have been better to start with a more modest approach: implement the timed root immunity after you get rooted, which I've requested before, along with perhaps some nerfs to specific abilities', plus a reduction in the drawbacks of Vampirism, then see where that leaves us.

Snares and roots both need to be in the game, and both need to be useful for PvP, but not something that was quite as spammable and easy to apply as before (especially in the case of roots). Now I think the pendulum has probably swung too far the other way. (But with BGs no longer really happening on the PTS, it's hard to say for sure)

What game are you playing where 4 seconds of immunity has somehow overcorrected crowd control that could be permanent? Have you ever played any other mmos? This isn't normal, the direction zos went by putting cc on every ability and little/no diminishing returns or immunity timers are things other games moved past a decade ago because players hated those mechanics. We need less cc, not more. They didn't do enough. Whoever it is at zos that was having a love affair with permanent crowd control needs to look at literally every other game in existence and go sit in the corner for a bit while the adults sort things out.

After this pts goes live, there won't be a possibility of permanent cc, unless you count perma snare. The root immunity means no perma roots. Cc immunity already exists. Most overperforming snares have been adjusted, and gap closer snares have been removed. The increased availability of powerful snare immunity will make the cost to benefit ratio of even efficient snares drop.

So where are you seeing permanent crowd control?

zParallaxz

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. Compare the following skills:

- Fm: 4s immunity, major brutality (extremely easy buff to get access to)
- Double take: 4s snare immunity, major evasion (difficult and strong buff to get)
- Rat: 4s immunity, 4s expedition, minor force. Kinda a broken skill atm with its super duper low cost (I would definitely suggest to increase its cost post psijic passive reduction by at least 1k), but it has a relatively rare buff to get (minor force) and a relatively easy one to get (major expedition)
- Shuffle: 2.5s immunity, major evasion
- Wings: 2s expedition, 50% damage reduction from range attacks. An extremely strong buff, unique, and literally a game changer.

You seriously, seriously think a buff like wings should just get randomly buffed because...reasons? Compare it to:
- Fm: why would someone use fm? A skill that is linked to a skill line and gives u a buff that even pots can provide you?
- Doubld take: it has double the immunity but also half the damage mitigation from less skills. Relatively balanced compared to wings. Less passive defense, more mobility, makes sense.
- Shuffle: wings are already stronger now, if you buff them there's not even a comparison to be made anymore. Shuffle giving 4s immunity will make it equal to the new double take, bringing us back to the point above.

Ranged attacks?

Reflective Scale:
Renamed this ability to Protective Scale.
Converted the reflect function into a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. This happened to all 3 versions of the ability.
Dragon Fire Scale (morph): This ability no longer increases damage of reflected attacks, since it can no longer reflect. Incoming projectiles will now cause you to launch a fiery orb at the attacker that deals Flame Damage. Effect can occur once every half second.
Reflective Plate: Renamed this ability to Protective Plate. No other changes were made to the ability’s functionality.

It says projectiles. It doesn't save you from AoE or channels (like JB, Bow ulti or Soul assault).

Please, try to be accurate when referring to a what a skill will do.

Crushing Shock is not a projectile as well. It falls under category: beam type attacks just as soul assault or jesus beam. But Shimmering Shield is catching Crushing Shock which is strange.

He even mentioned 2s expedition on wings which is also incorrect. Trying to condradict a consistency request without even studying what the skill does. Very well.

Lol and these are the people who think their opinion should be taken in consideration when it comes to Zos. He either purposely did that to fit his argument, or was making statements and claims from a ignorant viewpoint.

Zelos

Your wings are still better then shuffle.

Joy_Division

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

-

Blinkin8r wrote: »

Already an overloaded skill. No immunity needed.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

Reflective plate is sooooo overloaded.

What no passives for having plate slotted? If you’re going to throw in passives from the skill line you really should be consistent. Otherwise people will see you as being biased and ignore your comments all together.

Sorry, you are right. I forgot about that health recovery passive. Does not change the point tho, health recovery in PvP is desired stat only on very specific builds, mostly stamsorc ones.

But ok, let me correct that.

Reflective Plate (class skill)
- 3510 magicka cost
- 50% projectile mitigation for 6 seconds
- +5% health recovery for having wings slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 2 seconds

Race Against Time (skill available to anyone)
- 2984 magicka cost
- Minor Force for 12 seconds
- Major Expedition for 4 seconds
- 5k decaying shield while blocking for having RAT slotted
- snare and immobilize immunity for 4 seconds

The main point of this thread still stands. I don't seek RAT nerf. I don't seek Reflective Plate buff. I just want for snare/immobilize abilities to work consistently. Not this, one has it's duration, other one has another duration, despite it's the exactly same effect. Looking at previous patch notes, ZOS is trying to get rid of inconsistencies:
- Major expedition from skills like boundless storm, 4 seconds duration. Even RAT is adjusted to this 4 seconds standard. Why? Because consistency.
- Daedric Prey, all pets were receiving +55% damage while Attronachs only +40%. All pets now including Attronachs receive +40%. Why? Because consistency.
Why not taking a look on this one then? But I fear that instead of bringing the duration in line, ZoS will just label it as "rule breaker", just like with Falcon's swiftness.

If you are going to compare skills, then do just that: compare the actual skills.

Because passives are another argument and another discussion entirely. You're only listing the beneficial passives from one and not the other. Even after you "fixed" the mistake, you still aren't being consistent: Burning Heart's +12% healing received is an untyped bonus that stacks with everything.

And you're inconsistent in asking for consistency as you don;t have a problem with Inhale benefiting from an inconsistency.