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How much does Grim Focus mitigation actually provide?
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
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Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!
luckily the build editor does this work for you now
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual3 -
muh✭✭✭[snip]10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.75 [Resistance] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] = 4322
We end up mitigating 56.8% of damage.
[snip]
Since you all asked so nicely to make everything "look bad"10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.73 [Resistance] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] = 4206
Gaining Minor Resolve/Ward provides 1.1% effective mitigation. (total mitigation of 57.9%)10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.73 [Resistance] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 3870
Gaining Minor Protection provides 3.4% effective mitigation. (total mitigation of 61.3%)10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.73 [Resistance] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] * 0.7 [Major Protection] = 2709
Gaining Major Protection provides 11.6% effective mitigation. (total mitigation of 72.9%)
Let's say I've used Minor Ward/Resolve, Minor Protection and Major Protection as defensive baseline in my example as well... Hell let's throw in block too and the initial hit is a Spell. Let's look how much Grim Focus would provide now.Without Grim Focus: 10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.682 [Resistance] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] * 0.7 [Major Protection] * 0.5 [Blocking] = 1488 WithGrim Focus 10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.682 [Resistance] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] * 0.7 [Major Protection] * 0.5 [Blocking] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] = 1265
We're talking about 2.2% effective mitigation from 15% Grim Focus (total mitigation of 87.4%).
Now that's close to worst case for all of them (as some of you claimed I portrayed in my OP). This is pretty useless for a couple of reasons. Now we're getting into the realm of which buff was applied first (which is stupid), if I had thrown in Major Protection first in this example above it would provide a bit more than 11.6% effective mitigation, but everything after would've been lower.
In the example in the OP I've used realistic buffs you'd have on a Stamblade in PvE, all of which are provided by yourself.
You could look at dozens of configurations of gear and CP and always get slightly different results. However what I can guarantee you is that it'll never provide 15% effective mitigation.Edited by muh on April 29, 2019 9:44PM4 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
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What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel0 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
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Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!
luckily the build editor does this work for you now
Oh word? TIL0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!
luckily the build editor does this work for you now
Oh word? TIL
yup. There is a mitigation tab. Lets you see your current total mitigation with all CP/buffs added. YOu have to deselect the buffs in the buff tab first if you want to see that value change, but its worth it.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Rehdaun✭✭✭✭✭I gotta ask, strictly from a PvE standpoint, what does it matter that grim focus has mitigation or even that pitiful heal?
In the middle of a boss fight, pick any boss I don't care, who's going to say "wait, I'm not going to shoot my bow because I want the mitigation." Easy answer no one. We are all going to continue our rotations while trying to stay alive.
Wasn't it you Zos that said you wanted to make all of these skills easier to weave and be more reliable? Oh yes, here it is..
Reference
What part of adding some defensive gimmick to grim focus makes it easier on us pve players? Huh? I'm not asking you to revert anything. I'm just asking you to think. Quit polishing a turd and give us pve players something useful or don't give us anything at all. Oh that's right, looks like you aren't giving us pve'ers much of anything at all.
I have to say, Grim Focus is now one of the most awkward skills in the game. Well done Zos. Well done! SMH5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.4 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.
Now that I think about it, this is a buff to heavy armor stamblade lol. 15% grim, 25% evasion, 33% heavy armor resist, cloak dot purge, minor protection off temporal guard. Class needs a defensive nerf lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual4 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭'Grim Focus: This ability and its morphs will now reduce your damage taken by 3% for each Light or Heavy Attack you use, up to 5 times. Note that this bonus will persist even if the Grim Focus buff fades from you, as it is tethered to the amount of stacks you had while the buff was active. This effect will be consumed when you use your stacks by firing the spectral bow or when you leave combat.'
So NBs just got a skill that needs only a single slot but gives an unique 15% damage mitigation buff with basically infinite duration and therefore no upkeep cost? I assume this buff will stay active on both bars? I hope at least some understand how strong that will be in PvP. Forget about the bow proc and just use this as a defensive buff lol.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.
If you have any red cp at all, if you have any armor at all, then no it is not 15%
It will never be 15% effective mitigation.
What was calculated here is an accurate, realistic analysis of actual gains to the standard stamblade build, which is average 3% on anyone who uses the bow proc
In PvE it’s worthless, in PvP you won’t even feel the different it makes
Edit: in what world do you read “Major Protecion and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers you feel” as “ahh this is worthless!”
They are consistent, fairly long length mitigation abilities (Nova and Veil) that do no fluctuate over their durations. You can use them strategically without gimping your offensive capabilities.
What’s next, will you claim Templars have OP mitigation because Minor Protection is built into their kits?Edited by Jhalin on April 29, 2019 8:14PM2 -
ccmedaddy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Not to mention that they can now run Rally with the new Double Take. HA stamblades got so many buffs this PTS cycle, if people think stamblades will be easier to deal with next patch, they're in for an unpleasant surprise. ☠️☠️
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.
Now that I think about it, this is a buff to heavy armor stamblade lol. 15% grim, 25% evasion, 33% heavy armor resist, cloak dot purge, minor protection off temporal guard. Class needs a defensive nerf lol.0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I gotta ask, strictly from a PvE standpoint, what does it matter that grim focus has mitigation or even that pitiful heal?
In the middle of a boss fight, pick any boss I don't care, who's going to say "wait, I'm not going to shoot my bow because I want the mitigation." Easy answer no one. We are all going to continue our rotations while trying to stay alive.
Wasn't it you Zos that said you wanted to make all of these skills easier to weave and be more reliable? Oh yes, here it is..
Reference
What part of adding some defensive gimmick to grim focus makes it easier on us pve players? Huh? I'm not asking you to revert anything. I'm just asking you to think. Quit polishing a turd and give us pve players something useful or don't give us anything at all. Oh that's right, looks like you aren't giving us pve'ers much of anything at all.
I have to say, Grim Focus is now one of the most awkward skills in the game. Well done Zos. Well done! SMH
I agree with this. My perspective is mostly PVE, and I see nothing good about this at all. I do content with good healers, and I like to outsource any and all concern regarding my damage mitigation to them (other than respecting mechanics). The only thing that mattters for dps is damage output, sustain, and how well it fits in a rotation. The changes to this skill fail at all 3.
2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, in no-CP you will feel it, let's say you have real 28k average mitigation (bs uptime is 50% at best possible case), 8k of that is penetrated so only mitigation left is 30%. 70%*0.15=10.5%. That's a lot.
In PVE and CP PVP it's trash of course, if they at least increased mersiless resolve duration to 30 sec too instead of extra +17% to heal.. heal in melee range looks more like stamina thing? And when ZOS pushes magblade to be most melee class of all classes (DK has 7 meter range), while there is no melee magicka weapons in the game.. what a mess!
So you need some kind of pelinal hybrid to make it work but then you will simply use stam morph in PVP lol.. merciless resolve morph is just a t-r-a-s-h.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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What was calculated is an accurate demonstration of a biased argument.
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.
If you have any red cp at all, if you have an armor at all, then no it is not 15%
It will never be 15% effective mitigation.
What was calculated here is an accurate, realistic analysis of actual gains to the standard stamblade build, which is average 3% on anyone who uses the bow proc
In PvE it’s worthless, in PvP you won’t even feel the different it makes
Yes it will never be 15% effective mitigation. Just like minor protection wont give the stated value and just like major protection wont give the stated value either. Its all relative.
The reality is that its twice as strong as minor protection and half as effective as major protection, a buff that is so OP to the point where it makes you nearly unkillable if its active on you. Its also worth around 70-80 CP points.
If all dmg mitigations are useless to you and you wont feel them then by all means run around with just light/medium armor and no other mitigation. If CP is the reason why its so bad then by all means, change it, you now have 80 more CP points to invest elsewhere.
Edit : Nope, not gonna claim templar are OP because of minor protection. Never claimed that minor protection is OP either. Nice strawman right there but better luck next time.
Edited by pieratsos on April 29, 2019 8:25PM4 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭@muh Let me explain to you why total mitigation is not the relevant number here, since you are still sticking to that concept:
1st case: Imagine someone wearing no armor and no CP (for simplicity):
In PvE an attack that has a tooltip of 1000 would deal 1000 damage to such a target
In PvP such an attack would only deal 1000 * 0.5 = 500 damage
2nd case: Now, add the 15% damage mitigation from the proposed grim focus change:
In PvE that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 * 0.5 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 57.5%
--> By your logic: Oh, grim focus only adds 7.5% mitigation now. But duh, you could also say that battlespirit now only reduces the damage by 42.5%. Both calculations are equal, and none is more 'true' than the other. Imo, both statements are false, because the order is irrelevant in case of multiplications.
3rd case: To make things worse, imagine that the battlespirit damage debuff gets removed, and instead all the tooltips of attacks from players would get manually cut in half. Monster health would also be cut in half, so in theory this should change nothing about how the game performs.
In PvE that attack would still deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage (since it comes from a NPC) --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP the attack would deal 500 * 0.85 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
--> Even though the resulting damage of both the 2nd and the 3rd case are equal, they yield different results in the case of 'total mitigation' in the PvP scenario. This shows that this value is not of relevance. What matters is how much damage do I receive without the buff, and how much will I receive once I apply it.
Now, speaking from experience in PvP: if you really think a flat 15% damage mitigation that stacks with armor and protection buffs is 'insignificant', then I don't know what to tell you. Do you also think major protection is just barely significant then? Get real man.
Edit: Think about it this way: added damage mitigation is basically the same as a boost to your max health and healing received. If I'm not mistaken, then in practice 15% extra damage mitigation should pretty much behave the same way as 1 / 0.85 = 1.176 --> 17.6% extra health and healing received. That's far from insignificant. If you really need it on a particular build is a different question, but it is a very strong buff, no doubt about it.Edited by HankTwo on April 29, 2019 8:54PMPC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK7 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!
I'm definitely interested in hearing how you would assign your CP given this change. (before & after examples would be awesome)Member of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg1 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭@muh Let me explain to you why total mitigation is not the relevant number here, since you are still sticking to that concept:
1st case: Imagine someone wearing no armor and no CP (for simplicity):
In PvE an attack that has a tooltip of 1000 would deal 1000 damage to such a target
In PvP such an attack would only deal 1000 * 0.5 = 500 damage
2nd case: Now, add the 15% damage mitigation from the proposed grim focus change:
In PvE that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 * 0.5 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 57.5%
--> By your logic: Oh, grim focus only adds 7.5% mitigation now. But duh, you could also say that battlespirit now only reduces the damage by 42.5%. Both calculations are equal, and none is more 'true' than the other. Imo, both statements are false, because the order is irrelevant in case of multiplications.
3rd case: To make things worse, imagine that the battlespirit damage debuff gets removed, and instead all the tooltips of attacks from players would get manually cut in half. Monster health would also be cut in half, so in theory this should change nothing about how the game performs.
In PvE that attack would still deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage (since it comes from a NPC) --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP the attack would deal 500 * 0.85 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
--> Even though the resulting damage of both the 2nd and the 3rd case are equal, they yield different results in the case of 'total mitigation' in the PvP scenario. This shows that this value is not of relevance. What matters is how much damage do I receive without the buff, and how much will I receive once I apply it.
Now, speaking from experience in PvP: if you really think a flat 15% damage mitigation that stacks with armor and protection buffs is 'insignificant', then I don't know what to tell you. Do you also think major protection is just barely significant then? Get real man.
Edit: Think about it this way: added damage mitigation is basically the same as a boost to your max health and healing received. If I'm not mistaken, then in practice 15% extra damage mitigation should pretty much behave the same way as 1 / 0.85 = 1.176 --> 17.6% extra health and healing received. That's far from insignificant. If you really need it on a particular build is a different question, but it is a very strong buff, no doubt about it.
This is exactly how mitigation buffs and debuffs should be viewed. If one doesn't believe that another 15% mitigation is worth it for their build, then use another skill in that slot.
Stacking multiple sources of mitigation has always had diminishing returns, but that had never stopped people from running undo on back bar just for minor protection, alongside SnB for blocking. If anything, this just allows NB more options for mitigation.5 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Buff is powerful, no idea why people are saying it isn’t. It’s like someone saying the sky isn’t blue.
Maybe they thought Nightblade needed a survivability boost? I’m definitely happy.
Only thing I’m not happy about is trying to fit all these things on my hotbars with limited space.
This reminds me of when shields were changed and sorcs went nuts, then ended up one of the top pvp classes after you know- they actually got off the forums and started playing.Edited by Iskiab on April 29, 2019 9:14PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
muh✭✭✭@muh Let me explain to you why total mitigation is not the relevant number here, since you are still sticking to that concept:
1st case: Imagine someone wearing no armor and no CP (for simplicity):
In PvE an attack that has a tooltip of 1000 would deal 1000 damage to such a target
In PvP such an attack would only deal 1000 * 0.5 = 500 damage
2nd case: Now, add the 15% damage mitigation from the proposed grim focus change:
In PvE that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP that attack would deal 1000 * 0.85 * 0.5 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 57.5%
--> By your logic: Oh, grim focus only adds 7.5% mitigation now. But duh, you could also say that battlespirit now only reduces the damage by 42.5%. Both calculations are equal, and none is more 'true' than the other. Imo, both statements are false, because the order is irrelevant in case of multiplications.
3rd case: To make things worse, imagine that the battlespirit damage debuff gets removed, and instead all the tooltips of attacks from players would get manually cut in half. Monster health would also be cut in half, so in theory this should change nothing about how the game performs.
In PvE that attack would still deal 1000 * 0.85 = 850 damage (since it comes from a NPC) --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
In PvP the attack would deal 500 * 0.85 = 425 damage --> 'total mitigation' would be 15%
--> Even though the resulting damage of both the 2nd and the 3rd case are equal, they yield different results in the case of 'total mitigation' in the PvP scenario. This shows that this value is not of relevance. What matters is how much damage do I receive without the buff, and how much will I receive once I apply it.
Now, speaking from experience in PvP: if you really think a flat 15% damage mitigation that stacks with armor and protection buffs is 'insignificant', then I don't know what to tell you. Do you also think major protection is just barely significant then? Get real man.
Heh... and people accuse me to look at Grim Focus in a vacuum.
You always have some form of mitigation active already. You're never in a situation where tooltip damage of 1000 actually is 1000 damage you deal (except when you have more pen than they have resistance in no-cp PvP).
When I look at the value a skill provides I want to know how much I get from it with my baseline setup. The example setup I used is a self buffed Stamblade in seven medium armor.
So in my OP the comparison has been "Baseline" and "Baseline + Grim Focus". And the difference between "Baseline' and "Baseline + Grim Focus" is less than 15% compared to the initial hit. Which is pretty much the part I highlighted in your quote.
However what I consider the important part of the OP is that if you intend to use it offensively it's not even 15% mitigation. In PvE you'd want to proc it immediately after your 5th light attack, so you'd get max 12% out of it and more like 6% on average. Where calling it an average is misleading at best. You're always cycling somewhere between 0 and 12% mitigation. You're playing a mitigation slot machine where every hit lands on a different mitigation value and you never know if the big hit lands on 12% or 0% mitigation.
I can see how you'd want to sit on it for a while in PvP to use it during burst windows.
About the 50% battle spirit, I honestly view it more as "reduced initial hit" rather than increased damage mitigation. So in my mind it's always your 3rd case. It doesn't change the % mitigation of my baseline.
This is also wrong. Your "effective HP" is calculated with your "effective Mitigation" ... Which is what I'm using in my OP and throughout this thread.Edit: Think about it this way: added damage mitigation is basically the same as a boost to your max health and healing received. If I'm not mistaken, then in practice 15% extra damage mitigation should pretty much behave the same way as 1 / 0.85 = 1.176 --> 17.6% extra health and healing received. That's far from insignificant. If you really need it on a particular build is a different question, but it is a very strong buff, no doubt about it.Edited by muh on April 29, 2019 9:45PM3 -
KruwosSoul ShrivenI'd be fine with losing any buffs on Grim Focus if they just made it a slotted passive for the mini-game. That way we aren't wasting a GCD and resources up front for nothing and it would become a much less clunky skill to use and maintain. In essence it would become a burst version of crystal shards proc on Sorc.1
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Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nightblades don't have a purge nor strong healing so the fact that are now going to have high mitigation is a change that's overdue. I will say that I think that going invisible should remove the mitigation stacks though considering the potency of invisibility.4 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
What was calculated is an accurate demonstration of a biased argument.
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
6% average mitigation is not twice as good as minor protection, it’s 75% of Minor Protection for anyone who uses the proc
LA->cast 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, LA->proc back to 0
Only tanks (who already sit on max resists, who will benefit least from all extra mitigation) will be able to sit on five stacks for the full 15% for any amount of time.
Minor Protection is mediocre, so is this and this buff isn’t even consistent or easy to keep up at decent values. Major Protection and Major Maim are the only damage modifiers that you’ll feel
It can potentially give you 15% dmg mitigation and save it for as long as you like. im not gonna sit here and take an average of 0,3,6,9,12 to make the buff look bad just so it can fit ur agenda. According to you major protection is useless too because of very low uptime.
So yeah 15% is 15%.
If you have any red cp at all, if you have an armor at all, then no it is not 15%
It will never be 15% effective mitigation.
What was calculated here is an accurate, realistic analysis of actual gains to the standard stamblade build, which is average 3% on anyone who uses the bow proc
In PvE it’s worthless, in PvP you won’t even feel the different it makes
Yes it will never be 15% effective mitigation. Just like minor protection wont give the stated value and just like major protection wont give the stated value either. Its all relative.
The reality is that its twice as strong as minor protection and half as effective as major protection, a buff that is so OP to the point where it makes you nearly unkillable if its active on you. Its also worth around 70-80 CP points.
If all dmg mitigations are useless to you and you wont feel them then by all means run around with just light/medium armor and no other mitigation. If CP is the reason why its so bad then by all means, change it, you now have 80 more CP points to invest elsewhere.
Edit : Nope, not gonna claim templar are OP because of minor protection. Never claimed that minor protection is OP either. Nice strawman right there but better luck next time.
Damn where did the NB gank you?
No one is going to take it for the mitigation, when there are much better, more consistent options, which you conveniently keep ignoring
Minor Protection is in all aspects superior to Grim Focus’ buff, it will always be 8%, you are not locked out of an offensive ability to keep the 8%, it doesn’t require dropping block to spend 3 GCDs ramping up
You keep ignoring the realistic scenario of who is going to have this slotted, a medium armor build that uses it for damage0 -
muh✭✭✭
It would make it worse actually. You couldn't stack light attacks for procs on your backbar unless you're running it on your backbar as well.I'd be fine with losing any buffs on Grim Focus if they just made it a slotted passive for the mini-game. That way we aren't wasting a GCD and resources up front for nothing and it would become a much less clunky skill to use and maintain. In essence it would become a burst version of crystal shards proc on Sorc.0 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭This is a very decent buff, particularly for medium armor and light armor nightblades. The OP's beginning statement is somewhat biased. Although the math he provides contains the truth about the actual mitigation on paper, in actual gameplay this will be very useful and strong. In addition, ZOS hasn't specified based on tooltip description whether this applies to the target you were hitting, or a 15% reduction from all incoming attacks. If so, it's much better than heroic slash, essentially the equivalent of wizard's riposte, except for the fact that this is an unnamed buff which can be stacked with minor maim.
The OP's beginning post is a perfect example of how human interpretation can still be biased from unbiased mathematical results.Edited by Kronuxx on April 29, 2019 9:49PM3 -
muh✭✭✭
Alright, I guess I am biased towards PvE. That said, I'm curious in which way I've been so obviously biased. What really rubs you the wrong way about the OP? So I maybe can avoid it in the future and look at it more objectively.The OP's beginning post is a perfect example of how human interpretation can still be biased from unbiased mathematical results.
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Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!
I'm definitely interested in hearing how you would assign your CP given this change. (before & after examples would be awesome)
Obviously taking more points out of ironclad/hardy/ele is my first move. Scaling the resistances up, healing received, maybe shields. No idea what the absolute meta will look like without tinkering with it though.0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭@muh First of all, lets concentrate on the case were you use this skill purely for the 15% damage mitigation bonus. You can add as much extra mitigations in my example as you want, the outcome will be the same. Equal damage values in both case 2 and 3 but different numbers in case of the 'total mitigation'.
Your math is not wrong per se, but you are taking the wrong conclusions from it. The problem is that you are always comparing it to this 'baseline' you calculate. I'm telling you this baseline shouldn't matter to you. Why should I care how much damage a player would deal to a naked target without any CP and buffs. It doesn't make sense to make comparisons with that case. What's important is how much will I mitigate when I add this skill to my bar compared to how much damage I receive without it. And that's exactly 15%. Heck, the fact that you don't take battlespirit into the equation is pure arbitrariness.
And about the mitigation = extra health and healing received. Please calculate some example scenarios were you add 15% damage mitigation in one case and 17.647% extra health and healing received in another. You can add as many other damage reduction and healing received buffs as you like. Apart from adding oblivion damage, both cases should always end at the same relative amount of health.
General example from me: a player with max health 'm' starts at full health and gets damage by a player with constant dps 'd'. The targeted player already has 2 forms of mitigation (r1 and r2) and 2 boosts to his healing received (b1 and b2). He will heal himself with a constant stream of heals 'h'. How much time 't' will it take until the player dies?
Case 1) added damage mitigation 'r3': [ m / (d * r1 * r2 * r3 - h * b1 * b2) = t ]
Case 2) added health bonus and healing received 'b3': [ m *b3 / (d * r1 * r2 - h * b1 * b2 * b3) = t ]
Question: how large must the health and healing received bonus be to be equal to the added damage mitigation?
--> [ m / (d * r1 * r2 * r3 - h * b1 * b2) = m *b3 / (d * r1 * r2 - h * b1 * b2 * b3) ]
--> [ d * r1 * r2 - h * b1 * b2 * b3 = b3 * (d * r1 * r2 * r3 - h * b1 * b2) ]
--> [ d * r1 * r2 - h * b1 * b2 * b3 = b3 * d * r1 * r2 * r3 - b3 * h * b1 * b2 ]
--> [ d * r1 * r2 = b3 * d * r1 * r2 * r3 ]
--> [ 1 = b3 * r3 ]
--> [ b3 = 1/r3 ]
Conclusion: If you insert a resistance bonus of r3 = 0.85 you will find, that a health and healing received bonus of 1 / 0.85 = 1.17647 is equal to that in practice. The other mitigation and healing received sources are irrelevant to the outcome of this calculation.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK2 -
actosh✭✭✭✭✭It provides no mitigation............you take 15% less dmg. Did some tests on pts, kinda strong and feels like another passive.
Olms in vas normal
Almost max resistance(32800), minor protection running via cloak, heroic slashed olms, and weakening glyph applied as well.
dmg Taken without grim focus 5 stacks = 2326
dmg taken with active grim focus 5 stacks = 1939
2326 x 0.85(grim focus 15%) = 1977.1
Seems to me kinda way to strong tbh. Especially for PvP.Edited by actosh on April 29, 2019 10:29PM1 -
Nerftheforums wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
It's negative compared to the loss of minor berserker and, in scourge's case, also minor endurance...
Honestly, I'll take it though. Just grab my minor berserk from Slimecraw and be on my way. It is still RIP for minor endurance though."Courage is not a lack of fear. Rather, it is the recognition there are things more important than fear." -Sai Sahan1 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭It provides no mitigation............you take 15% less dmg. Did some tests on pts, kinda strong and feels like another passive.
So it’s not being reduced by cp like normal mitigation math?
If so that sounds like someone half assed the script and it’ll get patched accordingly.Edited by Insco851 on April 29, 2019 10:29PM0