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How much does Grim Focus mitigation actually provide?
-
Dracan_Fontom✭✭✭✭✭The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That calculation is not the best dont believe it people.
You're statement is false. Don't believe it people.
Provide better ones if you can, if not, just stay silent. Grim focus is dead anyway. Magblades is dead for so long, and nerfing its primary offensive skill won't help. Same as Piercing Mark with no cost. Let's nerf offense and defense of magblade, great idea.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.4 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.1 -
muh✭✭✭
Mkay...?
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
I guess that's one way to take something fairly neutral, explaining effective value of an effect and make it something that fits your narrative.
Why would I have been required to write it stacks with X effect, how is that relevant to how much effective mitigation Grim Focus provides? In close to its best case situation? (Stamblade w/ Major Resolve/Ward, medium armor and CP).
When I cook a dish with a set of ingredients, do I have to look at every other ingredient that's unrelated to what I cook as well now?
Anyway. Just know that it's an informational piece. If you want to believe math or not is your choice.
Edited by muh on April 29, 2019 3:57PM0 -
Dracan_Fontom✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."Edited by Dracan_Fontom on April 29, 2019 3:54PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Since patch notes and the PTS aren’t up, calculations based on nothing might not be a good idea.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."
Dude they said it on eso live on Friday. Applying game math to 2 developer's statement is all but beefy. It's simply a what if analysis, if you don't want to take the word of wheeler and Gilliam as true.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They said mitigation. Maybe the guy meant mitigation as in it’s a 3% resistance increase per stack.
We don’t know yet.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Dracan_Fontom✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."
Dude they said it on eso live on Friday. Applying game math to 2 developer's statement is all but beefy. It's simply a what if analysis, if you don't want to take the word of wheeler and Gilliam as true.
If you haven't noticed by now, ZoS doesn't exactly keep their word. This has happened on SEVERAL occasions throughout the game's history. PvP Justice System. Out the window. Orsinium sized Murkmire. Gone. To all you stamsorcs, remember your stam atro ulti?0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
The bias is in the preference for the original minor beserk while not giving the unnamed mitigation the discussion it deserves. Plus we should see the actual value on the notes and then test the change on PTS to ensure its working correctly.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
muh✭✭✭
Wait, what? I never said I want Minor Berserk back?
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
The bias is in the preference for the original minor beserk while not giving the unnamed mitigation the discussion it deserves. Plus we should see the actual value on the notes and then test the change on PTS to ensure its working correctly.0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."
Dude they said it on eso live on Friday. Applying game math to 2 developer's statement is all but beefy. It's simply a what if analysis, if you don't want to take the word of wheeler and Gilliam as true.
If you haven't noticed by now, ZoS doesn't exactly keep their word. This has happened on SEVERAL occasions throughout the game's history. PvP Justice System. Out the window. Orsinium sized Murkmire. Gone. To all you stamsorcs, remember your stam atro ulti?
Please quote when they said "on the upcoming pts patch (or the one later can't remeber) these changes will be added to the pts" regarding those changes. Because I never heard them say such things regarding the topics you mentioned.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Sure I agree we need to wait and see what the definite values will be. But lets say it is indeed 15% at 5 stacks. In that case the OP's point stands. Whether people agree or not is up to personal opinion, but I don't think the actual analysis would be biased in that case.
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
The bias is in the preference for the original minor beserk while not giving the unnamed mitigation the discussion it deserves. Plus we should see the actual value on the notes and then test the change on PTS to ensure its working correctly.0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭I think it is good that it won't help PVE dps very much. I think if it stays as is I'll appreciate how effective it will be against bleeds. Also Onslaught is ticking up in popularity and this mitigation will help there as well. I do particularly like how it decreases in value the more mitigation you already have.1 -
Dracan_Fontom✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."
Dude they said it on eso live on Friday. Applying game math to 2 developer's statement is all but beefy. It's simply a what if analysis, if you don't want to take the word of wheeler and Gilliam as true.
If you haven't noticed by now, ZoS doesn't exactly keep their word. This has happened on SEVERAL occasions throughout the game's history. PvP Justice System. Out the window. Orsinium sized Murkmire. Gone. To all you stamsorcs, remember your stam atro ulti?
Please quote when they said "on the upcoming pts patch (or the one later can't remeber) these changes will be added to the pts" regarding those changes. Because I never heard them say such things regarding the topics you mentioned.
Of course you haven't.0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭can we address that ZOS is turning a Damage skill to an hybrid/defensive skill for no reason?
just nerf it down so we forget about it and build something else for you to nerf it later.Edited by kalunte on April 29, 2019 4:20PM5 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Dracan_Fontom wrote: »The patch notes are not even out yet and there are calculations going. Idk about the rest of you, but something is fishy here.
It's basic game math. These calculations are the same for all other mitigation buffs. Nothing beefy here, only game knowledge.
We don't even know how much mitigation grim focus will get, if any. This is still ZoS, I will take the official notes over the word of an employee any day so don't give me that *** about "only game knowledge."
Dude they said it on eso live on Friday. Applying game math to 2 developer's statement is all but beefy. It's simply a what if analysis, if you don't want to take the word of wheeler and Gilliam as true.
If you haven't noticed by now, ZoS doesn't exactly keep their word. This has happened on SEVERAL occasions throughout the game's history. PvP Justice System. Out the window. Orsinium sized Murkmire. Gone. To all you stamsorcs, remember your stam atro ulti?
Please quote when they said "on the upcoming pts patch (or the one later can't remeber) these changes will be added to the pts" regarding those changes. Because I never heard them say such things regarding the topics you mentioned.
Of course you haven't.
Then quote it please 0 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, there needs to be a lot of play-test time trying to determine if I'll use assassin's will(merciless) or impale; as I can only slot one or the other.
Thoughts on value/worth comparison?Member of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg0 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭For me, there needs to be a lot of play-test time trying to determine if I'll use assassin's will(merciless) or impale; as I can only slot one or the other.
Thoughts on value/worth comparison?
Yea I’ve tried impale on live currently and it always ends up lacking in CP pvp. Also easy to get tunnel vision on a low health target and spam it a couple times too many without a kill, damaging the sustain of the build.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For me, there needs to be a lot of play-test time trying to determine if I'll use assassin's will(merciless) or impale; as I can only slot one or the other.
Thoughts on value/worth comparison?
On live impale is good, but reflectable. Merciless is a big hitter and heal, and maybe mitigation now?
Depends on your spec:
Ranged: impale for sure, it’ll be ridiculously good once reflections are gone.
Melee Skirmisher: Both, make them fit
Brawler melee: Merciless
Healer: Make them fit
It’ll be a tough decisions after the patch, add onto that RAT will definitely be mandatory.Edited by Iskiab on April 29, 2019 4:45PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardyEdited by Bladerunner1 on April 29, 2019 4:57PM0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭it'll mostly depend on what you need to do actually. since grim becomes hybrid, you can either use it as a def not using the spectral bow and maximizing 5/5 mitigation, or like a situational skill like a brawler, using the def as much as possible and use the proc only if you have a wide and clear window for it.
if you are into killing/finishing your target you have no choice but assassin's blade (and morph), since you cant rely on a proc to do the job, even more this one because of the time it takes to build it.0 -
muh✭✭✭
Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
The only difference might be, after paul/luna tests on pts, that minor protection negates minor vulnerability completely. OTherwise all mitigation is multiplicative and the more you stack and less effective they become. In pvp, battlespirit waters down ALL mitigation and outside of major protection/block, its a struggle to go past 70% total mitigation.
Ok so they work in the same way. So basically you are really asking the wrong question. The question isnt how much actual dmg mitigation you get from grim focus but how it compares to other dmg reduction sources. Of course you can use math to try and make grim focus mitigation look mediocre but then again the same applies for other mitigation sources. The reality is that grim focus reduction is double the mitigation you get from minor protection and about half the mitigation of the most OP mitigation buff in the game, major protection. So yeah, not so mediocre after all.4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I know, it was a rhetorical question just to show that if grim focus mitigation is mediocre then things like minor protection are complete garbage. Which obviously its not just like 15% mitigation from grim focus isnt mediocre either.0 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except that it isn't either CP or Grim Focus, but CP and Grim Focus.Bladerunner1 wrote: »How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus?
About 74 red champion points worth of mitigation, assuming you get 5 stacks of grim focus. That's what it takes to get both Iron Clad and Thick Skinned up to 15%.
*Edit* Or it's like having a completely topped off elemental defender + hardy
Yea but with this available- you are basically allowed to assign cp completely differently to maximize the potential mitigation. Oh boy more math!0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What is biased about the analysis? Ofc he is not saying it is always X% dmg reduction. The rule of thumbs is the more damage mitigation you have, the less useful additional dmg mitigation will be. It is just an example of how basic mitigation works. The calculations in the OP are valid and simply serve to portray this. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't see the bias here.
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.
Its biased cause its presented in a way to make the buff look useless when in fact its twice as effective as minor protection which is considered to be a strong mitigation buff and about half as effective as major protection which is considered to be the most OP mitigation buff and one of the most OP buffs in the game in general.
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