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How much does Grim Focus mitigation actually provide?
muh
✭✭✭
Heya,
so on ESO Live they announced that Grim Focus will get 3% damage mitigation per stack (up to* 15%). It's nice that they acknowledge that the initial cast of Grim Focus (and morphs) feels awkward. However, I don't think giving it mitigation will change that and the mitigation it provides is probably much lower than you expect.
How damage mitigation actually works
To explain you why, we just have to look at how damage is mitigated in ESO:
Let's put that into a real world example:
Stamina Nightblade with 810 CP with a general purpose CP setup.
Let's plug that into the equation above against an initial hit of 10,000 direct physical damage.
If we add 15% from Grim Focus into that equation now:
So we actually got just 7.6% (= [5082 - 4322] / 10,000) increased mitigation out of 15% Grim Focus mitigation. But the story doesn't end here.
Note: Going forward I'll only list the equation for Grim Focus, % differences are always compared to the same equation without [Grim Focus] in relation to the initial hit of 10,000.
*) How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus, when using it "off cooldown"?
As far as I understood it on ESO Live, we get 3% per stack of the Grim Focus "mini-game". So in PvE we never really sit on 15% for long, if at all.
Let's break down how stacking damage mitigation would look like:
So if we look at the average damage mitigation we get from Grim Focus we end up with:
Unfortunately we could take a big hit just as we procced our bow and actually get 0% mitigation from Grim Focus on it.
We could be lucky that we get hit while we're at 4 stacks and mitigate more like 6% from it. But don't expect to ever get 15% actual damage mitigation out of it.
With a light armor setup it would look fairly similar, very slightly (less than a percent) more mitigation due to it.
For a resistance capped tank (33000 Phys/Spell Resistance), with Minor Protection (8% mitigation) who just slots it for the mitigation (so actually keeps it at 15%), while blocking (50% mitigation) the fomula would look like:
TL;DR
On average you get just 6% tooltip damage mitigation from it as a DD in PvE, which in reality gives about 3% actual mitigation.
When you're holding onto the bow proc, e.g. in PvP, it provides about 7.5% of actual mitigation.
As a tank who woud want to keep it at 15% tooltip mitigation, you only get about 2% actual mitigation from it.
It obviously is stronger than Minor Protection, Minor Ward/Resolve. It's obviously weaker than Major Protection.
Specific values mentioned here specifically are for the setup used above. Using different setups will yield different results. No-CP situations vastly, in CP areas only slightly.
Conclusion
Does it actually tackle the issue it tries to solve?
I don't think so. The issue is that it costs a global cooldown + resources to "participate in a mini-game", aka no immediate gain. But the mitigation is tied to the mini-game, it still costs a global cooldown and resources to "participate in a mini-game"...
Will tanks use it? I honestly doubt it can compete with all the other abilities a tank would want to slot.
What can ZOS do to make it better?
Honestly, no idea. The removal of Minor Berserk tells us already that they don't want to increase NB damage output (which is fair). The removal of Minor Endurance from the stam morph was already addressed by increasing the duration to 30s. So removing the initial resource cost is probably out of question as well.
They could change it to be a "if slotted" type ability, but that would be a way bigger nerf than what we currently have. That would require to slot it both bars if we want to gain stacks on both bars, assuming the buff isn't removed on bar swap with a one bar setup... So a big no to this idea.
Do I mind?
Not really to be fair, compared to 5.0.0 it's more than we had. Could they do more? Probably, but I don't expect to see any interesting change to Grim Focus after this one.
Edit: Changed "Armor" into "Resistance" in equations.
Edit2: It's no longer laughable.
Edit3: heading to changed to reinforce that this part if about using bow procs as soon as they become available.
Edit4: Made the TL;DR a bit clearer to help people think not too much.
Edited by muh on April 30, 2019 12:15PM so on ESO Live they announced that Grim Focus will get 3% damage mitigation per stack (up to* 15%). It's nice that they acknowledge that the initial cast of Grim Focus (and morphs) feels awkward. However, I don't think giving it mitigation will change that and the mitigation it provides is probably much lower than you expect.
How damage mitigation actually works
To explain you why, we just have to look at how damage is mitigated in ESO:
Initial Hit * (1 - %Mitigation#1) * (1 - %Mitigation#2) * (1 - %Mitigation#N)Every %Mitigation we get, is becoming less and less useful.
Let's put that into a real world example:
Stamina Nightblade with 810 CP with a general purpose CP setup.
- Ironclad (73): 23%
- Thick Skinned (48): 18%
- Hardy (56): 12%
- Elemental Defender (56): 12%
- Phys/Spell Resistance from armor: 11199 -> 17%
- Major Resolve/Ward (Shadow Barrier passive): 5280 -> +8%
- Spell Shield (37): 3184 -> +4.8% against Spells
- Physical Damage: 25%
- Spell Damage: 29.8%
Let's plug that into the equation above against an initial hit of 10,000 direct physical damage.
10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.75 [Resistance] = 5082We mitigated 49.1% of the initial hit.
If we add 15% from Grim Focus into that equation now:
10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.75 [Resistance] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] = 4322We end up mitigating 56.8% of damage.
So we actually got just 7.6% (= [5082 - 4322] / 10,000) increased mitigation out of 15% Grim Focus mitigation. But the story doesn't end here.
Note: Going forward I'll only list the equation for Grim Focus, % differences are always compared to the same equation without [Grim Focus] in relation to the initial hit of 10,000.
*) How much mitigation can we actually expect from Grim Focus, when using it "off cooldown"?
As far as I understood it on ESO Live, we get 3% per stack of the Grim Focus "mini-game". So in PvE we never really sit on 15% for long, if at all.
Let's break down how stacking damage mitigation would look like:
1 LA + Ability (followed by 1s GCD) = 3% Mitigation 1 LA + Ability (followed by 1s GCD) = 6% Mitigation 1 LA + Ability (followed by 1s GCD) = 9% Mitigation 1 LA + Ability (followed by 1s GCD) = 12% Mitigation 1 LA + Proc (followed by 1s GCD) = 0% MitigationMkay... (yes... 15% would probably be up for at least 100ms... pretty insignificant)
So if we look at the average damage mitigation we get from Grim Focus we end up with:
(3% + 6% + 9% + 12% + 0%) / 5s = 6%If we plug that into the equation above for Grim Focus, instead of 15%:
10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.75 [Resistance] * 0.94 [Grim Focus] = 5289We only get 3% damage mitigation on average from Grim Focus.
Unfortunately we could take a big hit just as we procced our bow and actually get 0% mitigation from Grim Focus on it.
We could be lucky that we get hit while we're at 4 stacks and mitigate more like 6% from it. But don't expect to ever get 15% actual damage mitigation out of it.
With a light armor setup it would look fairly similar, very slightly (less than a percent) more mitigation due to it.
For a resistance capped tank (33000 Phys/Spell Resistance), with Minor Protection (8% mitigation) who just slots it for the mitigation (so actually keeps it at 15%), while blocking (50% mitigation) the fomula would look like:
10,000 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Resistance] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] * 0.85 [Grim Focus] = 1325That's only 2.3% increased damage mitigation from Grim Focus.
TL;DR
On average you get just 6% tooltip damage mitigation from it as a DD in PvE, which in reality gives about 3% actual mitigation.
When you're holding onto the bow proc, e.g. in PvP, it provides about 7.5% of actual mitigation.
As a tank who woud want to keep it at 15% tooltip mitigation, you only get about 2% actual mitigation from it.
It obviously is stronger than Minor Protection, Minor Ward/Resolve. It's obviously weaker than Major Protection.
Specific values mentioned here specifically are for the setup used above. Using different setups will yield different results. No-CP situations vastly, in CP areas only slightly.
Conclusion
Does it actually tackle the issue it tries to solve?
I don't think so. The issue is that it costs a global cooldown + resources to "participate in a mini-game", aka no immediate gain. But the mitigation is tied to the mini-game, it still costs a global cooldown and resources to "participate in a mini-game"...
Will tanks use it? I honestly doubt it can compete with all the other abilities a tank would want to slot.
What can ZOS do to make it better?
Honestly, no idea. The removal of Minor Berserk tells us already that they don't want to increase NB damage output (which is fair). The removal of Minor Endurance from the stam morph was already addressed by increasing the duration to 30s. So removing the initial resource cost is probably out of question as well.
They could change it to be a "if slotted" type ability, but that would be a way bigger nerf than what we currently have. That would require to slot it both bars if we want to gain stacks on both bars, assuming the buff isn't removed on bar swap with a one bar setup... So a big no to this idea.
Do I mind?
Not really to be fair, compared to 5.0.0 it's more than we had. Could they do more? Probably, but I don't expect to see any interesting change to Grim Focus after this one.
Edit: Changed "Armor" into "Resistance" in equations.
Edit2: It's no longer laughable.
Edit3: heading to changed to reinforce that this part if about using bow procs as soon as they become available.
Edit4: Made the TL;DR a bit clearer to help people think not too much.
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Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanks for this. Proves for th nth time that devs have no effing clue of what they are doing. Amazing! We are in safe hands!7 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Did they say that the Bow proc resets the mitigation stacks?@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual9 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭Did they say that the Bow proc resets the mitigation stacks?
Of course it will. Otherwise it would just be 15% reduction.
So now the game is sitting on the bow proc until you have the full combo. It doesn’t really help much unless you have some potatoes you can kill without the bow...2 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Did they say that the Bow proc resets the mitigation stacks?
Of course it will. Otherwise it would just be 15% reduction.
So now the game is sitting on the bow proc until you have the full combo. It doesn’t really help much unless you have some potatoes you can kill without the bow...
Oh wow. That is one crap skill isn't it@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade3 -
muh✭✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.Edited by muh on April 29, 2019 1:51PM4 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Nicely detailed post. Thx for running the numbers.What can ZOS do to make it better?
Honestly, no idea. The removal of Minor Berserk tells us already that they don't want to increase NB damage output (which is fair). The removal of Minor Endurance from the stam morph was already addressed by increasing the duration to 30s. So removing the initial resource cost is probably out of question as well.
This right here. They don't want to increase NB damage output. That is totally fine, and as you already stated, understandable. So they should not, and I repeat, should not give grim focus a new buff (named or unnamed) that is not already available to the class. Adding anything that isn't already in their toolkit will inherently buff the class (even if that thing is a very, very limited amount of damage mitigation).
Instead, grim focus should be given a buff that NB already have access to. Major brutality/sorcery seems like a perfect candidate. Drain power always seemed to me to be a very clunky source of these buffs, requiring the user to be within melee range of the enemy to gain the effect. No other source of brutality/sorcery works this way. All other instances are connected to either self-buffs (like rally) or ranged attacks (like entropy and hidden blade). Additionally, drain power and its morphs are already functional enough on their own, even without major brutality/sorcery. Drain power works as the NB AoE spammable, and it's morphs provide either an AoE heal that increases in power with the number of enemies it hits, or increase the damage of the ability to the level of most single target spammables (seriously, compare the tooltip of power extraction to surprise attack, its nuts). Removing major brutality/sorcery from these skills wouldn't hurt them much, and it would make room for brutality/sorcery on grim focus by eliminating potential redundancy within the class toolkit.
Giving grim focus brutality/sorcery would remove part of the "spin-up" time required for an NB to reach max damage potential after a fight begins. Right now, too many of the buffs/debuffs within the NB toolkit are dependent on an enemy being there. Right now, NB (using only their class skills) are expected to first mark the enemy (for fracture/breach), then teleport to the enemy (for minor vulnerability), then use drain power (for major brutality/sorcery), and then finally begin their burst. If brutality/sorcery were instead placed on grim focus, this process would be expedited by an entire GCD (because they could buff up for this before the fight), while the overall power of the class would remain the same because NB already have access to brutality/sorcery. It wouldn't do anything but make combat flow so much smoother.
This change would also benefit magNB (who need help the most) more than stamNB, because sources of brutality are already more available to stamina users (mainly through the 2h rally).
This change just makes so much sense.Edited by twing1_ on April 29, 2019 1:53PM6 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or minor force (pls ZoS, you can do this). If they want lower DPS on NB, I think we deserve a little easier rotation (no need to cast acceleration or trap)2 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »Or minor force (pls ZoS, you can do this). If they want lower DPS on NB, I think we deserve a little easier rotation (no need to cast acceleration or trap)
This would inherently increase the overall power of the class by giving them a new buff that is not already accessible through their class skills.
Granted, for PvE everyone already runs this so it won't make much difference, but for PvP it would definitely be more impactful.Edited by twing1_ on April 29, 2019 1:58PM0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
And btw, 15% damage reduction that stacks with armor and protection buffs from a single skill sounds incredible strong. That's half of what major protection provides and almost double the amount of minor protection. We all know how good these buffs are. I wouldn't be surprised if stamblades or magblade healers would just use this skill for the mitigation and never use the bow proc at all. Don't get me wrong, imo the proposed change to this skill doesn't fit NB at all, but that doesn't mean its weak.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK4 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Czekoludek wrote: »Or minor force (pls ZoS, you can do this). If they want lower DPS on NB, I think we deserve a little easier rotation (no need to cast acceleration or trap)
This would inherently increase the overall power of the class by giving them a new buff that is not already accessible through their class skills.
Granted, for PvE everyone already runs this so it won't make much difference, but for PvP it would definitely be more impactful.
Not really since most ppl will use RAT in pvp
1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭People go gaga over the 3% armor that protective gives you, so 3% from a skill would seem to be good to them.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on April 29, 2019 2:23PM3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’ve never understood why people consider this mitigation to be less useful when combined with other sources. For any build, with any combination of armor and other % damage received modifiers, there will be a value for the damage you take from an enemy attack. Now activate this new 15% mitigation, and the same enemy attack hits you for 15% less (85% of the original hit, exactly as advertised).
I’m not sure where the expectation that mitigation sources should stack additively came from, this would quickly become overpowered as players could hit 100% mitigation for invincibility.6 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Can you people not wait for the actual patch notes for loves sake?!
15% damage mitigation is really strong, more so for squishy players that don’t stack many defensive multipliers.6 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maimMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
It's negative compared to the loss of minor berserker and, in scourge's case, also minor endurance...5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
It's negative compared to the loss of minor berserker and, in scourge's case, also minor endurance...
yea then again they are auditing everyone. at least your main burst was compensated with a decent defensive buff, stamplar lost more than nightblade the last 2 patches lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
The only difference might be, after paul/luna tests on pts, that minor protection negates minor vulnerability completely. OTherwise all mitigation is multiplicative and the more you stack and less effective they become. In pvp, battlespirit waters down ALL mitigation and outside of major protection/block, its a struggle to go past 70% total mitigation.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
It's negative compared to the loss of minor berserker and, in scourge's case, also minor endurance...
yea then again they are auditing everyone. at least your main burst was compensated with a decent defensive buff, stamplar lost more than nightblade the last 2 patches lol.
Yes but stamplar has been a bottom tier since ages. Stamnb was the in the top 3 pvp classes forever while magnb received twice the amount of nerfs of stmaplr in the same period of time. The comparison you made isn't really an example of intellectual honesty : P0 -
muh✭✭✭@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OP’s analysis is so biased...
If you don’t like it don’t use it. Those weak things like minor/major protection suck too. Don’t use them either.
We’ll see who gets smoked in pvp.Edited by Iskiab on April 29, 2019 3:21PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten4 -
muh✭✭✭
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That's the same as saying "the sky is blue" is that negative as well?@HankTwo
Yes, but we're talking effective mitigation here, which is the total amount of damage mitigation. Not just the mitigation from one skill.This argument again? Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and I don't understand why people would assume otherwise.
If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you and then get the five stacks for the 15% damage mitigation, then the same attack would only deal 850 damage to you instead, no matter how many other types of damage mitigation you already had. This is exactly what 'reduces the damage you take by 15%' means.
To work with your example here.
With just 7 medium armor (~17% spell/physical damage mitigation) and no other forms of mitigation your initial hit must've been ~1205 damage. So the 150 damage you mitigated with Grim Focus effectively are only about 12.5% of the initial hit.
If you have, e.g. 20% from Ironclad/Thick Skinned and 10% from Hardy/Elemental Defender, your initial hit must've been ~1673 which means the 150 damage Grim Focus mitigated effectively are ~9%. Is that weak? No, but the situations in which you have 15% Grim Focus mitigation are nearly non-existent in real gameplay. For heals, this once again has to compete with every other skill they slot.
As Minno said that's "just how mitigation works". I didn't claim otherwise.Lughlongarm wrote: »What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
Whats the difference between that and minor/major protection and other dmg reductions in general. Do they work in a different way? Dont you also get a smaller dmg reduction from them as well?
They work the same way. 6% average damage reduction is a strong buff, no crazy OP, but a strong buff nevertheless. When many of the reductions options in the game are taking into effect(close to worst case scenario, like what author tried to show) mitigation bonuses are being heavily diminished. If this wasn't the case, many players would run with 100% damage immunity 100% of the time. But as you can see in game reality, mitigation bonuses like minor/major protection are considered strong and desirable. so ya, it shouldn't be the same for the 6% mitigation bonus.
I didn't know wearing armor and having CP assigned is close to worst case. Today I learned.
@Minno
Sorry, where am I saying it's a negative change?What’s the comparison to minor maim?
I don’t slot shade so in I’m losing maim from fear but gaining this additional damage reduction.
Minor Maim would reduce the initial hit by 15%. Since it's the only easily accessible reduction to damage dealt by enemies it would be pretty much identical to 15% Grim Focus. The difference is that Grim Focus is personal mitigation only, Minor Maim would also reduce damage on other people in your group.(10,000 * 0.85 [Minor Maim]) = 8500 8500 * 0.77 [Ironclad] * 0.88 [Hardy] * 0.5 [Armor] * 0.5 [Block] * 0.92 [Minor Protection] = 1325
My intention is to provide a reality check. Not everyone is aware that "this is just how mitigation works".this is just how mitigation works and that's not as negative as you are making it out to be lol.
Also, that it's on average less than 15% for everyone who intends to actually use the bow proc.
yea but you are saying its negative change, im saying its positive. its unnamed and will stack with things like major/minor protection and minor maim
"Conclusion:
The actual mitigation provided is laughable."
I give you that I could've chosen a different adjective that would've got the same message across.
The actual mitigation provided is insignificant. Better?
No you are saying "the sky is generally boring" (looking at 15% in a vaccum) while ignoring the fact you can also look at the stars+feel warmth from the sun and look at pretty sunsets (ignoring fact you can use wizard reposte/minor protection/major protection without overriding the grim focus 15%).
Because the analysis doesn't take that into effect, the OP stance is biased.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1