Bow nerf

SodanTok

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Um I think You're lost at that point. My point is that snipe change barely affects the parses at all and You helped me to prove that.

My point was that snipe is now worse than crushing weapon. And so it is.
*Edit* on a Nightblade

It's not. I mean not in the way that it would be waste of slot to use snipe and not crushing weapon. Both will be now just closer then they were previously. Just find someone on live server who'll provide You with minor fracture and run some parses with crushing weapon while having that debuff or just use lethal arrow instead of focused aim so testing wont be rigged by minor fracture. You'll see that even on live server parses with crushing weapon are close to the ones with focused aim.

If you reduce damage of ability by 25% it is big nerf. Calling it miniscule is highly ilogical. It is still expensive 1s cast time (25% snare) weapon specific ability that is currently sitting at just 20% more damage than universal cheap instant cast crushing weapon spammable.

Personally I dislike using snipe as spammable, but it always made sense it is better performing than using crushing or cutting dive. No matter what data you are looking at, snipe on live was either on par or noticeably better than instant cast spammables. Now the difference is obviously lesser, which makes no sense.

DoonerSeraph

SodanTok wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Um I think You're lost at that point. My point is that snipe change barely affects the parses at all and You helped me to prove that.

My point was that snipe is now worse than crushing weapon. And so it is.
*Edit* on a Nightblade

It's not. I mean not in the way that it would be waste of slot to use snipe and not crushing weapon. Both will be now just closer then they were previously. Just find someone on live server who'll provide You with minor fracture and run some parses with crushing weapon while having that debuff or just use lethal arrow instead of focused aim so testing wont be rigged by minor fracture. You'll see that even on live server parses with crushing weapon are close to the ones with focused aim.

If you reduce damage of ability by 25% it is big nerf. Calling it miniscule is highly ilogical. It is still expensive 1s cast time (25% snare) weapon specific ability that is currently sitting at just 20% more damage than universal cheap instant cast crushing weapon spammable.

Personally I dislike using snipe as spammable, but it always made sense it is better performing than using crushing or cutting dive. No matter what data you are looking at, snipe on live was either on par or noticeably better than instant cast spammables. Now the difference is obviously lesser, which makes no sense.

And I don't think we even factored Hawks Eye on this comparison, you need to build and keep 5 stacks of Hawk's Eye for Snipe to be barely above Crushing Weapon?

In this case why even have Snipe at all?

Change it to another DOT for all I care lol

Toc de Malsvi

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses. Snipe was 2-3k ahead of Crushing Weapon parses prior and now is relatively on par. Not only Snipe was changed the change for Relentless Focus means it does not need to be cast as often, therefore you should at least get a couple more Snipes in. This leads to inflated numbers for Snipes contribution to dps, looking only at dps totals for single skills on two parses on completely different patches leads to completely irrelevant results.

Average Snipe on live was 31.1k average Snipe on PTS is 24.7k. That is a 25.9% difference on average. Still this is a short sighted measure of changes but it is far more accurate than what you presented. The analysis presented by @Bladerunner1 at least shows the gap loss between Snipe and Crushing Weapon.

Snipe is a cast time skill that can be interrupted, snares the caster, and can be reflected. Crushing Weapon is an instant cast skill that cannot be interrupted, does not snare, and cannot be reflected. It is very obvious that Crushing Weapon should not deal nearly the same damage of Snipe, this is absurd outside of those that only want to nerf Snipe for their own personal agenda.

Many have tested and loss is somewhere between 2-3k, which heavily depends on what else changed in your class setup and how much you spam Snipe. High Snipe spam brings the loss closer to 2k, other class changes can decrease the loss further.

Garack

Nice facts toc!

So what do zos do about this?

Juhasow

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses. Snipe was 2-3k ahead of Crushing Weapon parses prior and now is relatively on par. Not only Snipe was changed the change for Relentless Focus means it does not need to be cast as often, therefore you should at least get a couple more Snipes in. This leads to inflated numbers for Snipes contribution to dps, looking only at dps totals for single skills on two parses on completely different patches leads to completely irrelevant results.

Average Snipe on live was 31.1k average Snipe on PTS is 24.7k. That is a 25.9% difference on average. Still this is a short sighted measure of changes but it is far more accurate than what you presented. The analysis presented by @Bladerunner1 at least shows the gap loss between Snipe and Crushing Weapon.

Snipe is a cast time skill that can be interrupted, snares the caster, and can be reflected. Crushing Weapon is an instant cast skill that cannot be interrupted, does not snare, and cannot be reflected. It is very obvious that Crushing Weapon should not deal nearly the same damage of Snipe, this is absurd outside of those that only want to nerf Snipe for their own personal agenda.

Many have tested and loss is somewhere between 2-3k, which heavily depends on what else changed in your class setup and how much you spam Snipe. High Snipe spam brings the loss closer to 2k, other class changes can decrease the loss further.

Do You even try to understand what You read before commenting ?

Toc de Malsvi

Juhasow wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses. Snipe was 2-3k ahead of Crushing Weapon parses prior and now is relatively on par. Not only Snipe was changed the change for Relentless Focus means it does not need to be cast as often, therefore you should at least get a couple more Snipes in. This leads to inflated numbers for Snipes contribution to dps, looking only at dps totals for single skills on two parses on completely different patches leads to completely irrelevant results.

Average Snipe on live was 31.1k average Snipe on PTS is 24.7k. That is a 25.9% difference on average. Still this is a short sighted measure of changes but it is far more accurate than what you presented. The analysis presented by @Bladerunner1 at least shows the gap loss between Snipe and Crushing Weapon.

Snipe is a cast time skill that can be interrupted, snares the caster, and can be reflected. Crushing Weapon is an instant cast skill that cannot be interrupted, does not snare, and cannot be reflected. It is very obvious that Crushing Weapon should not deal nearly the same damage of Snipe, this is absurd outside of those that only want to nerf Snipe for their own personal agenda.

Many have tested and loss is somewhere between 2-3k, which heavily depends on what else changed in your class setup and how much you spam Snipe. High Snipe spam brings the loss closer to 2k, other class changes can decrease the loss further.

Do You even try to understand what You read before commenting ?

You first suggest that Minor Berserk provided the difference which it does not appear to. You try to explain this with the crit on CW, while ignoring the change in duration of Relentless Focus and how that effects rotation.

I'll give you that CW parse from live to PTS seems off, one would expect Minor Berserk to have a greater effect. Bow has a lot of % stacking buffs with hawkeye and Longshots, so could be that the actual benefit of Minor Berserk is lower than expected.

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Moonsorrow

Aliyavana wrote: »

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

all this was made for pvp - nerf snipe cuz i cant counter it- lol
If you are getting ganked by boow builds in the first place you suck at pvp
L2P

or maybe its because most bowmen attack you when you are already fighting someone else?

"Bowmen" sounds cool, i prefer archers though.

Archer rp at Cyrodiil for me when want to fool around for some minutes before getting bored and going back to melee is imagining the Battle of the *** from GoT so as an archer i will shoot Endless hail in enemy zerg that clashes our own side zerg, then after i Snipe spam and watch them drop. Gives some giggles.

To the topic: Snipe damage nerf for pvp was needed.. wish it had not affected pve side of things. Could have put on the skill the "Does only 75% of damage against Players." so nerf would not be for pve at all.

Juhasow

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. And seriously You say that minor berserk may not be that important in self buffed parses ? I mean margin of aceptable error would be like 4% but not 0,5%. Most propable scenario is that OP parse from live server with crushing weapon is rigged.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses. Snipe was 2-3k ahead of Crushing Weapon parses prior and now is relatively on par. Not only Snipe was changed the change for Relentless Focus means it does not need to be cast as often, therefore you should at least get a couple more Snipes in. This leads to inflated numbers for Snipes contribution to dps, looking only at dps totals for single skills on two parses on completely different patches leads to completely irrelevant results.

Average Snipe on live was 31.1k average Snipe on PTS is 24.7k. That is a 25.9% difference on average. Still this is a short sighted measure of changes but it is far more accurate than what you presented. The analysis presented by @Bladerunner1 at least shows the gap loss between Snipe and Crushing Weapon.

Snipe is a cast time skill that can be interrupted, snares the caster, and can be reflected. Crushing Weapon is an instant cast skill that cannot be interrupted, does not snare, and cannot be reflected. It is very obvious that Crushing Weapon should not deal nearly the same damage of Snipe, this is absurd outside of those that only want to nerf Snipe for their own personal agenda.

Many have tested and loss is somewhere between 2-3k, which heavily depends on what else changed in your class setup and how much you spam Snipe. High Snipe spam brings the loss closer to 2k, other class changes can decrease the loss further.

Do You even try to understand what You read before commenting ?

You first suggest that Minor Berserk provided the difference which it does not appear to. You try to explain this with the crit on CW, while ignoring the change in duration of Relentless Focus and how that effects rotation.

I'll give you that CW parse from live to PTS seems off, one would expect Minor Berserk to have a greater effect. Bow has a lot of % stacking buffs with hawkeye and Longshots, so could be that the actual benefit of Minor Berserk is lower than expected.

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Actually that was retorical question so let me explain why Your logic is rigged like hell. in Your previous post.

OP made 4 parses comparing crushing weapon and focused aim rotations on live server and PTS. Results are :
1. crushing weapon on live 45,5k
2. crushing weapon on PTS (without minor berserk) 45,2k
3. focused aim on live 48,1k
4. focused aim on PTS 45,5k (no minor berserk)

Those results instantly suggest 2 variables that are distorting final results. First issue is the fact that focused aim is applying minor fracture so it's obviously increasing the DPS when compared to parses with crushing weapon. Second thing is pretty wierd fact that with and without minor berserk parses with crushing weapon were almost the same which instantly suggest that 1 of them is rigged.

So now lets answer You points one by one.

You said to me quote "You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses" and sorry but that is totally out of context comment. I stated in one of my previous posts that fact parses with crusihing weapon on PTS and live have almost the same DPS despite the fact one of them do not have minor berserk means that one of those parses is distorted by some variiables. Snipe is 2-3k ahead of crusinh weapon atm on live because OP is using focused aim so he gets additional penetration and as we can see his parse with focused aim have 2,7k more average penetration then parse with crusing weapon which on its own can already give that 2-3k DPS difference. As for change to relentless focus duration it's miniscule. Now with 20 seconds duration You'll need to cast it 3 times in 60 seconds with 30 seconds duration You'll cast it 2 times in 60 seconds so at the end You get 1 additional snipe cast every 60 seconds. That doesnt sound like a true game changer or important factor to taken under consideration and even if that argument can be taken under consideration that snipe DPS may be slightly increased when compared to live server because of that that argument is balanced because 1 additional light attack You'll get once every 10 seconds with shorter snipe cast time.

Snipe on live have average dmg 31,1k with minor berserk and on PTS 24,7k without it. So withj minor berserk that value could easily go up to 26,5k. Also that Argument is not changing anything since its not anything unexpected that when dmg of the abiliy was lowered then average hit value will be lower but You need to take under consideration that because of shorter channel time You'll have more snipes used in the same time period. Your argumentation tries to avoid that fact. If You'll compare time of fights and amount of light attacks and snipes used per second You can see that PTS parses have higher ratio of those and that is with high ping which is lowering that value. If any meassure is short sighted it's definietly Yours because You just prove what ZoS already said in patch notes that average dmg of snipe was lowered by ~25% but that doesant mean that DPS of LA+snipe was also lowered by 25%. Analysis presented by OP is rigged from mentioned by me earlier reasons. Linking the parses is far from analysing them

Well if You want to play the game of what certain ability have and what it should and should not have this is just a game of wishfull thinking not the true analysis and math. Snipe is still more bursty then crushing weapon can be lined up into burst combos with other abilities and have higher range plus applies stronger secondary effects from offensive perspective especially lethal arrow morph. Also when it comes to lethal arrow it can be buffed by sets like morag tong which is actually happening in raids that have multiple archers in it which buffs up dmg of that ability when on the other hand crushing weapon lacks enchancment like that. Also snipe does not require perfect light attack rotation thus it can be sustained easier and damage wise is still ahead of crushing weapon in fully buffed enviroment and ironically tests posted by OP proves that if You know how to properly analyse them not just to looks at numbers and compare those 1 to 1 without any context.

2-3 k DPS loss on PTS doesnt sound so high tbh. Also I really dont like that statements like "many have tested" because that is usually just escape goat for not bringing up any reliable data. First we need top assume that most of the people will always have ~1k DPS loss on PTS when compared to live simply because of the PTS lag. If that 2k DPS loss happened on new 21M dummy and somebody still pulled ~90k DPS this is barely existant DPS loss. If that 2k DPS loss happened on class like nightblade that lost minor berserk it also doesnt sound reliably enough to take it under consideration as starting point to create further arguments. It is also actually funny that You say that for rotations with high snipe spam that DPS loss is smaller when it actually should be opposite. If dps loss of snipe is that significat then the more You use it in rotation the bigger dps loss You should have notice because You spend more time in that heavily nerfed scenario. Something doesnt add up in Your theories. In reality fact that You get smaller DPS loss if You spend more time spamming snipe actually suggest that the more You use it the bigger adventage You start to get from the fact it have faster cast time so it'll start to compensate for 25% dmg loss with each additional cast of LA+snipe which will bring You closer to real DPS difference between life server and PTS version of the ability.

JobooAGS

If crushing weapon and snipe perform equally or close to equally, then why use snipe at all? Crushing weapon doesn't snare you, it is instant cast, it heals you and you get a free shield when you block.

Juhasow

JobooAGS wrote: »

If crushing weapon and snipe perform equally or close to equally, then why use snipe at all? Crushing weapon doesn't snare you, it is instant cast, it heals you and you get a free shield when you block.

Well if certain class does only 2% more DPS then other classes and requires more strict rotation to achieve that then why so many people is running that class and not class they like to play the most ? People will just always choose something that can give highest possible numbers even if those numbers are just slightly higher and there are drawbacks to achieving it.

Insco851

Good. Snipe needed a nerf, and now they need to fix that disgusting desync bs.

JobooAGS

Juhasow wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

If crushing weapon and snipe perform equally or close to equally, then why use snipe at all? Crushing weapon doesn't snare you, it is instant cast, it heals you and you get a free shield when you block.

Well if certain class does only 2% more DPS then other classes and requires more strict rotation to achieve that then why so many people is running that class and not class they like to play the most ? People will just always choose something that can give highest possible numbers even if those numbers are just slightly higher and there are drawbacks to achieving it.

That I know, even if one build does 1% more dmg than another build, people will flock to it and consider the other build to be completely useless.

My point is there is no reason to use snipe when crushing weapon not only supposedly performs equally, but has more benefits to use.

Juhasow

JobooAGS wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

If crushing weapon and snipe perform equally or close to equally, then why use snipe at all? Crushing weapon doesn't snare you, it is instant cast, it heals you and you get a free shield when you block.

Well if certain class does only 2% more DPS then other classes and requires more strict rotation to achieve that then why so many people is running that class and not class they like to play the most ? People will just always choose something that can give highest possible numbers even if those numbers are just slightly higher and there are drawbacks to achieving it.

That I know, even if one build does 1% more dmg than another build, people will flock to it and consider the other build to be completely useless.

My point is there is no reason to use snipe when crushing weapon not only supposedly performs equally, but has more benefits to use.

Snipe allows still for slightly more DPS especially in optimised teams that have archers with lethal arrow and someone with morag tong.

Toc de Malsvi

Notice that not once do you mention Crushing Weapon here. You only mention Snipe:

Juhasow wrote: »

If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf.

Nothing was taken out of context. It may not have been what you meant to say, but it is what you said.



Here you blame the difference on lucky crits on CW:

Juhasow wrote: »

Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Here I refute that:

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Juhasow wrote: »

Actually that was retorical question so let me explain why Your logic is rigged like hell. in Your previous post.

OP made 4 parses comparing crushing weapon and focused aim rotations on live server and PTS. Results are :
1. crushing weapon on live 45,5k
2. crushing weapon on PTS (without minor berserk) 45,2k
3. focused aim on live 48,1k
4. focused aim on PTS 45,5k (no minor berserk)

Those results instantly suggest 2 variables that are distorting final results. First issue is the fact that focused aim is applying minor fracture so it's obviously increasing the DPS when compared to parses with crushing weapon. Second thing is pretty wierd fact that with and without minor berserk parses with crushing weapon were almost the same which instantly suggest that 1 of them is rigged.

No it suggests that the parse was done on a different patch with variables that have been changed.

Juhasow wrote: »

So now lets answer You points one by one.

You said to me quote "You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses" and sorry but that is totally out of context comment. I stated in one of my previous posts that fact parses with crusihing weapon on PTS and live have almost the same DPS despite the fact one of them do not have minor berserk means that one of those parses is distorted by some variiables. Snipe is 2-3k ahead of crusinh weapon atm on live because OP is using focused aim so he gets additional penetration and as we can see his parse with focused aim have 2,7k more average penetration then parse with crusing weapon which on its own can already give that 2-3k DPS difference. As for change to relentless focus duration it's miniscule. Now with 20 seconds duration You'll need to cast it 3 times in 60 seconds with 30 seconds duration You'll cast it 2 times in 60 seconds so at the end You get 1 additional snipe cast every 60 seconds. That doesnt sound like a true game changer or important factor to taken under consideration and even if that argument can be taken under consideration that snipe DPS may be slightly increased when compared to live server because of that that argument is balanced because 1 additional light attack You'll get once every 10 seconds with shorter snipe cast time.

Snipe on live have average dmg 31,1k with minor berserk and on PTS 24,7k without it. So withj minor berserk that value could easily go up to 26,5k. Also that Argument is not changing anything since its not anything unexpected that when dmg of the abiliy was lowered then average hit value will be lower but You need to take under consideration that because of shorter channel time You'll have more snipes used in the same time period. Your argumentation tries to avoid that fact. If You'll compare time of fights and amount of light attacks and snipes used per second You can see that PTS parses have higher ratio of those and that is with high ping which is lowering that value. If any meassure is short sighted it's definietly Yours because You just prove what ZoS already said in patch notes that average dmg of snipe was lowered by ~25% but that doesant mean that DPS of LA+snipe was also lowered by 25%. Analysis presented by OP is rigged from mentioned by me earlier reasons. Linking the parses is far from analysing them

You can get at least two more Snipes in due to change in Relentless Buff. But that really doesn't fully reflect the change, from a 20 to a 30 second change means you will refresh Relentless at different times than you would before that may or may not be more beneficial to your overall parse. Less refresh times however means more relentless Focus proc's which is exactly what we see, the PTS parses have 2 more RF procs for both Snipe and Crushing Weapon than the live parses. The PTS gained 1k more than the live parse for CW weave from RF procs, while the Snipe only gained 0.3k more. Presumably this is due to the higher percentage of critical hits with RF on the PTS parse.

Juhasow wrote: »

Well if You want to play the game of what certain ability have and what it should and should not have this is just a game of wishfull thinking not the true analysis and math. Snipe is still more bursty then crushing weapon can be lined up into burst combos with other abilities and have higher range plus applies stronger secondary effects from offensive perspective especially lethal arrow morph. Also when it comes to lethal arrow it can be buffed by sets like morag tong which is actually happening in raids that have multiple archers in it which buffs up dmg of that ability when on the other hand crushing weapon lacks enchancment like that. Also snipe does not require perfect light attack rotation thus it can be sustained easier and damage wise is still ahead of crushing weapon in fully buffed enviroment and ironically tests posted by OP proves that if You know how to properly analyse them not just to looks at numbers and compare those 1 to 1 without any context.

2-3 k DPS loss on PTS doesnt sound so high tbh. Also I really dont like that statements like "many have tested" because that is usually just escape goat for not bringing up any reliable data. First we need top assume that most of the people will always have ~1k DPS loss on PTS when compared to live simply because of the PTS lag. If that 2k DPS loss happened on new 21M dummy and somebody still pulled ~90k DPS this is barely existant DPS loss. If that 2k DPS loss happened on class like nightblade that lost minor berserk it also doesnt sound reliably enough to take it under consideration as starting point to create further arguments. It is also actually funny that You say that for rotations with high snipe spam that DPS loss is smaller when it actually should be opposite. If dps loss of snipe is that significat then the more You use it in rotation the bigger dps loss You should have notice because You spend more time in that heavily nerfed scenario. Something doesnt add up in Your theories. In reality fact that You get smaller DPS loss if You spend more time spamming snipe actually suggest that the more You use it the bigger adventage You start to get from the fact it have faster cast time so it'll start to compensate for 25% dmg loss with each additional cast of LA+snipe which will bring You closer to real DPS difference between life server and PTS version of the ability.

Having a 2-3k dps loss at 45k means you will lose much more at 90k. No one has shown a faster cast time with Snipe, all that has been shown is the same cast time with light attack weaves. People have claimed the cast time is tied to ping but it hasn't been shown that low ping will reduce it below values already achievable on live.

Again you fail to see how this works, if I get 2 snipes in my rotation then even in a perfect world an additional 0.6 seconds is not adding a third snipe to my rotation. If I try to add a third snipe later I screw up my rotation later. The only way such a small change to cast time is realizable is if you use Snipe around 4+ times in a row to get another 1 second in your rotation. Assuming that ping time even affects it, most players wont get an additional 0.3 second per snipe cast. Which means they need to cast 5, 6, or even 7 times in a row to see a additional snipe.

Juhasow

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Notice that not once do you mention Crushing Weapon here. You only mention Snipe:

Juhasow wrote: »

If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf.

Nothing was taken out of context. It may not have been what you meant to say, but it is what you said.



Here you blame the difference on lucky crits on CW:

Juhasow wrote: »

Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Here I refute that:

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Juhasow wrote: »

Actually that was retorical question so let me explain why Your logic is rigged like hell. in Your previous post.

OP made 4 parses comparing crushing weapon and focused aim rotations on live server and PTS. Results are :
1. crushing weapon on live 45,5k
2. crushing weapon on PTS (without minor berserk) 45,2k
3. focused aim on live 48,1k
4. focused aim on PTS 45,5k (no minor berserk)

Those results instantly suggest 2 variables that are distorting final results. First issue is the fact that focused aim is applying minor fracture so it's obviously increasing the DPS when compared to parses with crushing weapon. Second thing is pretty wierd fact that with and without minor berserk parses with crushing weapon were almost the same which instantly suggest that 1 of them is rigged.

No it suggests that the parse was done on a different patch with variables that have been changed.

Juhasow wrote: »

So now lets answer You points one by one.

You said to me quote "You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses" and sorry but that is totally out of context comment. I stated in one of my previous posts that fact parses with crusihing weapon on PTS and live have almost the same DPS despite the fact one of them do not have minor berserk means that one of those parses is distorted by some variiables. Snipe is 2-3k ahead of crusinh weapon atm on live because OP is using focused aim so he gets additional penetration and as we can see his parse with focused aim have 2,7k more average penetration then parse with crusing weapon which on its own can already give that 2-3k DPS difference. As for change to relentless focus duration it's miniscule. Now with 20 seconds duration You'll need to cast it 3 times in 60 seconds with 30 seconds duration You'll cast it 2 times in 60 seconds so at the end You get 1 additional snipe cast every 60 seconds. That doesnt sound like a true game changer or important factor to taken under consideration and even if that argument can be taken under consideration that snipe DPS may be slightly increased when compared to live server because of that that argument is balanced because 1 additional light attack You'll get once every 10 seconds with shorter snipe cast time.

Snipe on live have average dmg 31,1k with minor berserk and on PTS 24,7k without it. So withj minor berserk that value could easily go up to 26,5k. Also that Argument is not changing anything since its not anything unexpected that when dmg of the abiliy was lowered then average hit value will be lower but You need to take under consideration that because of shorter channel time You'll have more snipes used in the same time period. Your argumentation tries to avoid that fact. If You'll compare time of fights and amount of light attacks and snipes used per second You can see that PTS parses have higher ratio of those and that is with high ping which is lowering that value. If any meassure is short sighted it's definietly Yours because You just prove what ZoS already said in patch notes that average dmg of snipe was lowered by ~25% but that doesant mean that DPS of LA+snipe was also lowered by 25%. Analysis presented by OP is rigged from mentioned by me earlier reasons. Linking the parses is far from analysing them

You can get at least two more Snipes in due to change in Relentless Buff. But that really doesn't fully reflect the change, from a 20 to a 30 second change means you will refresh Relentless at different times than you would before that may or may not be more beneficial to your overall parse. Less refresh times however means more relentless Focus proc's which is exactly what we see, the PTS parses have 2 more RF procs for both Snipe and Crushing Weapon than the live parses. The PTS gained 1k more than the live parse for CW weave from RF procs, while the Snipe only gained 0.3k more. Presumably this is due to the higher percentage of critical hits with RF on the PTS parse.

Juhasow wrote: »

Well if You want to play the game of what certain ability have and what it should and should not have this is just a game of wishfull thinking not the true analysis and math. Snipe is still more bursty then crushing weapon can be lined up into burst combos with other abilities and have higher range plus applies stronger secondary effects from offensive perspective especially lethal arrow morph. Also when it comes to lethal arrow it can be buffed by sets like morag tong which is actually happening in raids that have multiple archers in it which buffs up dmg of that ability when on the other hand crushing weapon lacks enchancment like that. Also snipe does not require perfect light attack rotation thus it can be sustained easier and damage wise is still ahead of crushing weapon in fully buffed enviroment and ironically tests posted by OP proves that if You know how to properly analyse them not just to looks at numbers and compare those 1 to 1 without any context.

2-3 k DPS loss on PTS doesnt sound so high tbh. Also I really dont like that statements like "many have tested" because that is usually just escape goat for not bringing up any reliable data. First we need top assume that most of the people will always have ~1k DPS loss on PTS when compared to live simply because of the PTS lag. If that 2k DPS loss happened on new 21M dummy and somebody still pulled ~90k DPS this is barely existant DPS loss. If that 2k DPS loss happened on class like nightblade that lost minor berserk it also doesnt sound reliably enough to take it under consideration as starting point to create further arguments. It is also actually funny that You say that for rotations with high snipe spam that DPS loss is smaller when it actually should be opposite. If dps loss of snipe is that significat then the more You use it in rotation the bigger dps loss You should have notice because You spend more time in that heavily nerfed scenario. Something doesnt add up in Your theories. In reality fact that You get smaller DPS loss if You spend more time spamming snipe actually suggest that the more You use it the bigger adventage You start to get from the fact it have faster cast time so it'll start to compensate for 25% dmg loss with each additional cast of LA+snipe which will bring You closer to real DPS difference between life server and PTS version of the ability.

Having a 2-3k dps loss at 45k means you will lose much more at 90k. No one has shown a faster cast time with Snipe, all that has been shown is the same cast time with light attack weaves. People have claimed the cast time is tied to ping but it hasn't been shown that low ping will reduce it below values already achievable on live.

Again you fail to see how this works, if I get 2 snipes in my rotation then even in a perfect world an additional 0.6 seconds is not adding a third snipe to my rotation. If I try to add a third snipe later I screw up my rotation later. The only way such a small change to cast time is realizable is if you use Snipe around 4+ times in a row to get another 1 second in your rotation. Assuming that ping time even affects it, most players wont get an additional 0.3 second per snipe cast. Which means they need to cast 5, 6, or even 7 times in a row to see a additional snipe.

Well thanks for proving that You in fact dont understand what You read and You're another person that should go back to ground school to repeat few math tests.

Toc de Malsvi

Juhasow wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Notice that not once do you mention Crushing Weapon here. You only mention Snipe:

Juhasow wrote: »

If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf.

Nothing was taken out of context. It may not have been what you meant to say, but it is what you said.



Here you blame the difference on lucky crits on CW:

Juhasow wrote: »

Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Here I refute that:

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Juhasow wrote: »

Actually that was retorical question so let me explain why Your logic is rigged like hell. in Your previous post.

OP made 4 parses comparing crushing weapon and focused aim rotations on live server and PTS. Results are :
1. crushing weapon on live 45,5k
2. crushing weapon on PTS (without minor berserk) 45,2k
3. focused aim on live 48,1k
4. focused aim on PTS 45,5k (no minor berserk)

Those results instantly suggest 2 variables that are distorting final results. First issue is the fact that focused aim is applying minor fracture so it's obviously increasing the DPS when compared to parses with crushing weapon. Second thing is pretty wierd fact that with and without minor berserk parses with crushing weapon were almost the same which instantly suggest that 1 of them is rigged.

No it suggests that the parse was done on a different patch with variables that have been changed.

Juhasow wrote: »

So now lets answer You points one by one.

You said to me quote "You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses" and sorry but that is totally out of context comment. I stated in one of my previous posts that fact parses with crusihing weapon on PTS and live have almost the same DPS despite the fact one of them do not have minor berserk means that one of those parses is distorted by some variiables. Snipe is 2-3k ahead of crusinh weapon atm on live because OP is using focused aim so he gets additional penetration and as we can see his parse with focused aim have 2,7k more average penetration then parse with crusing weapon which on its own can already give that 2-3k DPS difference. As for change to relentless focus duration it's miniscule. Now with 20 seconds duration You'll need to cast it 3 times in 60 seconds with 30 seconds duration You'll cast it 2 times in 60 seconds so at the end You get 1 additional snipe cast every 60 seconds. That doesnt sound like a true game changer or important factor to taken under consideration and even if that argument can be taken under consideration that snipe DPS may be slightly increased when compared to live server because of that that argument is balanced because 1 additional light attack You'll get once every 10 seconds with shorter snipe cast time.

Snipe on live have average dmg 31,1k with minor berserk and on PTS 24,7k without it. So withj minor berserk that value could easily go up to 26,5k. Also that Argument is not changing anything since its not anything unexpected that when dmg of the abiliy was lowered then average hit value will be lower but You need to take under consideration that because of shorter channel time You'll have more snipes used in the same time period. Your argumentation tries to avoid that fact. If You'll compare time of fights and amount of light attacks and snipes used per second You can see that PTS parses have higher ratio of those and that is with high ping which is lowering that value. If any meassure is short sighted it's definietly Yours because You just prove what ZoS already said in patch notes that average dmg of snipe was lowered by ~25% but that doesant mean that DPS of LA+snipe was also lowered by 25%. Analysis presented by OP is rigged from mentioned by me earlier reasons. Linking the parses is far from analysing them

You can get at least two more Snipes in due to change in Relentless Buff. But that really doesn't fully reflect the change, from a 20 to a 30 second change means you will refresh Relentless at different times than you would before that may or may not be more beneficial to your overall parse. Less refresh times however means more relentless Focus proc's which is exactly what we see, the PTS parses have 2 more RF procs for both Snipe and Crushing Weapon than the live parses. The PTS gained 1k more than the live parse for CW weave from RF procs, while the Snipe only gained 0.3k more. Presumably this is due to the higher percentage of critical hits with RF on the PTS parse.

Juhasow wrote: »

Well if You want to play the game of what certain ability have and what it should and should not have this is just a game of wishfull thinking not the true analysis and math. Snipe is still more bursty then crushing weapon can be lined up into burst combos with other abilities and have higher range plus applies stronger secondary effects from offensive perspective especially lethal arrow morph. Also when it comes to lethal arrow it can be buffed by sets like morag tong which is actually happening in raids that have multiple archers in it which buffs up dmg of that ability when on the other hand crushing weapon lacks enchancment like that. Also snipe does not require perfect light attack rotation thus it can be sustained easier and damage wise is still ahead of crushing weapon in fully buffed enviroment and ironically tests posted by OP proves that if You know how to properly analyse them not just to looks at numbers and compare those 1 to 1 without any context.

2-3 k DPS loss on PTS doesnt sound so high tbh. Also I really dont like that statements like "many have tested" because that is usually just escape goat for not bringing up any reliable data. First we need top assume that most of the people will always have ~1k DPS loss on PTS when compared to live simply because of the PTS lag. If that 2k DPS loss happened on new 21M dummy and somebody still pulled ~90k DPS this is barely existant DPS loss. If that 2k DPS loss happened on class like nightblade that lost minor berserk it also doesnt sound reliably enough to take it under consideration as starting point to create further arguments. It is also actually funny that You say that for rotations with high snipe spam that DPS loss is smaller when it actually should be opposite. If dps loss of snipe is that significat then the more You use it in rotation the bigger dps loss You should have notice because You spend more time in that heavily nerfed scenario. Something doesnt add up in Your theories. In reality fact that You get smaller DPS loss if You spend more time spamming snipe actually suggest that the more You use it the bigger adventage You start to get from the fact it have faster cast time so it'll start to compensate for 25% dmg loss with each additional cast of LA+snipe which will bring You closer to real DPS difference between life server and PTS version of the ability.

Having a 2-3k dps loss at 45k means you will lose much more at 90k. No one has shown a faster cast time with Snipe, all that has been shown is the same cast time with light attack weaves. People have claimed the cast time is tied to ping but it hasn't been shown that low ping will reduce it below values already achievable on live.

Again you fail to see how this works, if I get 2 snipes in my rotation then even in a perfect world an additional 0.6 seconds is not adding a third snipe to my rotation. If I try to add a third snipe later I screw up my rotation later. The only way such a small change to cast time is realizable is if you use Snipe around 4+ times in a row to get another 1 second in your rotation. Assuming that ping time even affects it, most players wont get an additional 0.3 second per snipe cast. Which means they need to cast 5, 6, or even 7 times in a row to see a additional snipe.

Well thanks for proving that You in fact dont understand what You read and You're another person that should go back to ground school to repeat few math tests.

You would in fact have to be marginally illiterate to write that sentence.

Juhasow

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Notice that not once do you mention Crushing Weapon here. You only mention Snipe:

Juhasow wrote: »

If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf.

Nothing was taken out of context. It may not have been what you meant to say, but it is what you said.



Here you blame the difference on lucky crits on CW:

Juhasow wrote: »

Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Here I refute that:

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You suggest CW on live must have low crit, when the parses are there to see. CW actually had a higher than expected crit on live getting 88% critical hits,with a 74% crit rating, and a lower than expected critical hits on PTS at 64%. Meaning one could expect CW to perform on par with Snipe over the average.

Juhasow wrote: »

Actually that was retorical question so let me explain why Your logic is rigged like hell. in Your previous post.

OP made 4 parses comparing crushing weapon and focused aim rotations on live server and PTS. Results are :
1. crushing weapon on live 45,5k
2. crushing weapon on PTS (without minor berserk) 45,2k
3. focused aim on live 48,1k
4. focused aim on PTS 45,5k (no minor berserk)

Those results instantly suggest 2 variables that are distorting final results. First issue is the fact that focused aim is applying minor fracture so it's obviously increasing the DPS when compared to parses with crushing weapon. Second thing is pretty wierd fact that with and without minor berserk parses with crushing weapon were almost the same which instantly suggest that 1 of them is rigged.

No it suggests that the parse was done on a different patch with variables that have been changed.

Juhasow wrote: »

So now lets answer You points one by one.

You said to me quote "You cannot say that the loss of Minor Berserk only affects Snipe parses and not Crushing Weapon parses" and sorry but that is totally out of context comment. I stated in one of my previous posts that fact parses with crusihing weapon on PTS and live have almost the same DPS despite the fact one of them do not have minor berserk means that one of those parses is distorted by some variiables. Snipe is 2-3k ahead of crusinh weapon atm on live because OP is using focused aim so he gets additional penetration and as we can see his parse with focused aim have 2,7k more average penetration then parse with crusing weapon which on its own can already give that 2-3k DPS difference. As for change to relentless focus duration it's miniscule. Now with 20 seconds duration You'll need to cast it 3 times in 60 seconds with 30 seconds duration You'll cast it 2 times in 60 seconds so at the end You get 1 additional snipe cast every 60 seconds. That doesnt sound like a true game changer or important factor to taken under consideration and even if that argument can be taken under consideration that snipe DPS may be slightly increased when compared to live server because of that that argument is balanced because 1 additional light attack You'll get once every 10 seconds with shorter snipe cast time.

Snipe on live have average dmg 31,1k with minor berserk and on PTS 24,7k without it. So withj minor berserk that value could easily go up to 26,5k. Also that Argument is not changing anything since its not anything unexpected that when dmg of the abiliy was lowered then average hit value will be lower but You need to take under consideration that because of shorter channel time You'll have more snipes used in the same time period. Your argumentation tries to avoid that fact. If You'll compare time of fights and amount of light attacks and snipes used per second You can see that PTS parses have higher ratio of those and that is with high ping which is lowering that value. If any meassure is short sighted it's definietly Yours because You just prove what ZoS already said in patch notes that average dmg of snipe was lowered by ~25% but that doesant mean that DPS of LA+snipe was also lowered by 25%. Analysis presented by OP is rigged from mentioned by me earlier reasons. Linking the parses is far from analysing them

You can get at least two more Snipes in due to change in Relentless Buff. But that really doesn't fully reflect the change, from a 20 to a 30 second change means you will refresh Relentless at different times than you would before that may or may not be more beneficial to your overall parse. Less refresh times however means more relentless Focus proc's which is exactly what we see, the PTS parses have 2 more RF procs for both Snipe and Crushing Weapon than the live parses. The PTS gained 1k more than the live parse for CW weave from RF procs, while the Snipe only gained 0.3k more. Presumably this is due to the higher percentage of critical hits with RF on the PTS parse.

Juhasow wrote: »

Well if You want to play the game of what certain ability have and what it should and should not have this is just a game of wishfull thinking not the true analysis and math. Snipe is still more bursty then crushing weapon can be lined up into burst combos with other abilities and have higher range plus applies stronger secondary effects from offensive perspective especially lethal arrow morph. Also when it comes to lethal arrow it can be buffed by sets like morag tong which is actually happening in raids that have multiple archers in it which buffs up dmg of that ability when on the other hand crushing weapon lacks enchancment like that. Also snipe does not require perfect light attack rotation thus it can be sustained easier and damage wise is still ahead of crushing weapon in fully buffed enviroment and ironically tests posted by OP proves that if You know how to properly analyse them not just to looks at numbers and compare those 1 to 1 without any context.

2-3 k DPS loss on PTS doesnt sound so high tbh. Also I really dont like that statements like "many have tested" because that is usually just escape goat for not bringing up any reliable data. First we need top assume that most of the people will always have ~1k DPS loss on PTS when compared to live simply because of the PTS lag. If that 2k DPS loss happened on new 21M dummy and somebody still pulled ~90k DPS this is barely existant DPS loss. If that 2k DPS loss happened on class like nightblade that lost minor berserk it also doesnt sound reliably enough to take it under consideration as starting point to create further arguments. It is also actually funny that You say that for rotations with high snipe spam that DPS loss is smaller when it actually should be opposite. If dps loss of snipe is that significat then the more You use it in rotation the bigger dps loss You should have notice because You spend more time in that heavily nerfed scenario. Something doesnt add up in Your theories. In reality fact that You get smaller DPS loss if You spend more time spamming snipe actually suggest that the more You use it the bigger adventage You start to get from the fact it have faster cast time so it'll start to compensate for 25% dmg loss with each additional cast of LA+snipe which will bring You closer to real DPS difference between life server and PTS version of the ability.

Having a 2-3k dps loss at 45k means you will lose much more at 90k. No one has shown a faster cast time with Snipe, all that has been shown is the same cast time with light attack weaves. People have claimed the cast time is tied to ping but it hasn't been shown that low ping will reduce it below values already achievable on live.

Again you fail to see how this works, if I get 2 snipes in my rotation then even in a perfect world an additional 0.6 seconds is not adding a third snipe to my rotation. If I try to add a third snipe later I screw up my rotation later. The only way such a small change to cast time is realizable is if you use Snipe around 4+ times in a row to get another 1 second in your rotation. Assuming that ping time even affects it, most players wont get an additional 0.3 second per snipe cast. Which means they need to cast 5, 6, or even 7 times in a row to see a additional snipe.

Well thanks for proving that You in fact dont understand what You read and You're another person that should go back to ground school to repeat few math tests.

You would in fact have to be marginally illiterate to write that sentence.

I just wanted to be terse. Well but since You insist have that instead then.

1.I've mentioned snipe as a part of larger picturewhich cleary You dont understand. My point is that snipe parses did not lost 2-3k DPS on PTS because of weaker snipe but because of minor berserk change and later on that crushing weapon parses despite that change stayed the same which suggest one of crushing weapon parses is unreliable so making further comparision of how DPS of crushing weapon vs snipe have changed from live to PTS based on that 4 parses in extremly unreliable and only thing we can be certain is that snipe parses did not changed a lot because if we would add minor berserk on top of that 45,5k it would be close to what OP got on live server.
2. I said about lucky crits on PARSE with crushing weapon as a possibility to have higher final DPS not lucky crits on crushing weapon itself.
3. Fact that variables for parses with crushing weapon have changed (loss on minor berserk on PTS)yet DPS for both parses with crushing weapon stayed the same suggest 1 of the parses have distorted result. That is why most of the people to have reliable source to test something is doing more thne 1 parse for each testing option.
4. PTS parse with snipe have 2 relentless focus procs more because now with shorther cast time on snipe You can weave more light attacks in the same time. Also since PTS parse have lower DPS then it lasts for longer so it's obvious it'll have more bow procs in longer time period. Like seriouly this is ground school level of logic. Increased duration of relentless focus barely benefits to more bow procs since like I said You just save 1 ability cast per 60 seconds.
5. Here You just completly dont understand what I said. I said that Your words that "people on PTS are getting 2-3k DPS less" is unreliable without knowing full context of that parse because if that would be 2 k out of 90k that is not big DPS loss. And fact OP lost 2k on his parses with snipe is caused only because of minor berserk change


Actually now when I look at those 2 crushing weapon parses from live server and PTS I can clearly see why despite minor berserk DPS difference wasnt that high. OP sucked at LA weaving in live server crushing weapon parse. Despite having same fight duration he have 5 less light attacks used and 7 less crushing weapon procs. 2 of those crushing weapons procs are covered by the need to use relentless focus 2 additional times because in 130 seconds You'll use relentless focus 2 times more when it have 20 seconds duration then You would do it with 30 seconds duration(with 20s it'll be 0,20,40,60,80,100,120 with 30s it'll be 0,30,60,90,120). On PTS OP was weaving way better which caused him to get more light attacks and because of that more relentless focus procs and more crushing weapon procs. Because of that despite not having minor berserk his PTS parse with crushing weapon is close to live server parse with minor berserk. Mentioned by You earlier crit ratios on both crushing weapon parses confirms that. On his live server parse with 88% crit on crushing weapon and minor berserk his DPS with it is almost the same as on PTS with 64% crit and without minor berserk. Same goes for light attacks with lower crit ratio and without minor berserk his light attacks have more DPS on PTS then on live server. He was simply sucking at light attack weaving on live server crushing weapon parse. So as I said since the beggining one parse is rigged. Case closed. You sound even more silly with Your theories right now lol.

Toc de Malsvi

@Juhasow

I'll give you this, I do agree upon reflection that the OP parses are unreliable. I also agree that I missread some portions of your posts, I don't agree that I missread all of them.

I tested the stam NB tonight and did find a fairly consistent 1.5k difference between Snipe and CW when using lover Mundus. I did 3 parses each with shadow mundus as well and they were a bit closer, but my actual crit was higher than expected.

I spent some time trying to duplicate the cast time difference. I got 1.25 sec fairly consistently on PTS and 1.2 sec rarely. On live I get 1.3 fairly consistently. My ping hovers around 90. This suggests ping is the issue with Snipe not behaving as advertised.

I am seeing a consistent 2k dps loss on my stam dk. I was hitting 49-50k, with the exact same setup. This PTS the highest I've pulled is 47.6k. This is on the 6mil robust.