Bow nerf

thedude33

Apxac wrote: »

Are you guys still going to play nightblade in this patch? .......?

I didn't even play him in pvp the last two months. I'm not a very good player so I thought it was just me when I had a hard time killing someone 1v1.

Then I started playing my magblade and stamsorc as tanky healers. I discovered NBs can't hurt me. In fact part of my fun now is baiting them to attack. So if they can't hurt me being a bad player, how about the good players? The ones who are able to dodge a snipe without knowing you are there? Then come searching for you because they know if you don't stealth and hide, they will kill you in less than 5 seconds. I see it all the time.

kypranb14_ESO

spacebandit wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

25 % less damage
10% faster cast time
20% less wait time between casts

Seems like a buff to me.

Minor Defile instead of Major. That's the nerf.

if you are weaving though that 200 ms doesn’t even matter does it? This is only going to be a buff if you spam snipe

I suppose you're right, however most bow snipers don't weave through the 200ms. The few who do won't let this change effect them, they will adapt.

I'm a PVP-Battlegrounds only Magblade, all I do is adapt. lol

Toc de Malsvi

SodanTok wrote: »

I dont know if they somehow missed the interaction with weaving or just ignored it, but the way they handled this change is just ridiculous.
You cant just cut time by 23% and nerf damage by 25%, that makes no sense.
If we followed same logic they could have decreased time by 40% instead and then damage by 40% and you know what would happen? We would have cast time ability that takes 0.8s to cast but deals exact same damage as 0 time instant cast crushing weapon.

In current PTS version this 1second cast time weapon specific ability is just 25% stronger (and much more expensive) than the universal instant cast crushing weapon.

^
yup

Toc de Malsvi

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

From PVE side it is buff, given increased projectile speed and that skill is easier to weave.
From dynamic PVP side you will able to land snipes more consistently since higher speed and lesser cast time means less chances to lose LOS and snipe will be harder to dodge, also DK wings removed so you won't receive your snipe back in your face.
From point of view of min-maxing bow and shooting unsuspecting targets, and utilizing long projectile speed to make several snipes to land within 1-2 seconds this is well-deserved nerf.

Myself and multiple others have tested it and found no buff when light weaving with it. The time between weaves is the same as before with only a nerf to the damage done.

It does appear to be more responsive as far as not lagging out and getting stuck in the cast. But overall it has been a significant nerf.

I was in that thread and made tests myself. It seems that usefulness of removal of 200 ms cooldown is related to lag/ping same way as it affects dps in PVE, higher ping, bigger time between weaves. If person has small lag, his dps won't decrease after snipe change. If person has big lag, we may say that cooldown after casting time was somewhat mitigating that lag decreasing impact of connection quality between players and now snipe spammers with big ping will be in disadvantage.
Is that a bad thing to be in disadvantage due to lag? Yes. Is removal of cooldown and reducing snipe damage while increasing projectile speed will make PVP more healthy? Yes.
So it's separate issues, no need to count them as one. Glass-cannon gank snipers were a cancer in PVP. ZOS does everything to make that playstyle ineffective, this is good, that means that current combat team understands the right way. Buff active gameplay, nerf cancerous 1 button gameplay be it spamming of snipe, wings, flares, snares or pets. Maybe they are wrong in some nuances, but overall direction is good.

I haven't seen anyone show snipe weaves less than ~1.3 seconds, which is the same as live. Only the argument that lag affects the weave time.

Further decreasing weave time by 23% if it actually works, only nets an increase if all you do is Snipe. If your rotation(PVE) could fit 2-3 snipes between dot applications you are not fitting a 3rd or 4th Snipe in due to needing to maintain your dots.

There are indeed separate PVE and PVP Issues. Snipe is only a problem in PVP in relation to glitches and cloak. The primary reason you cannot Dark Flare or Crystal Frag spam like you can with Snipe is that they rarely glitch out and you cannot use cloak to make reflects miss and disappear at will. Before the widespread exploitation of the snipe spam glitch, no one even attempted to claim that snipe was good.

As it stands Snipe is barely better than Crushing Weapon in damage but is considerably easier to counter. Crushing Weapon does not get reflected, and does not have a cast time, which means it does not snare you and cannot be interrupted. Necro Spammable peformed as well as using Snipe in my tests. I didn't test Warden to see if its spammable is better.

Garack

Nb rely on heavy install single damage in short time otherwise it's dead.zos killed the class

Juhasow

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

kitty79

(sorry for my english)

for me the real problem is not the -25%, it's the pace of the skill

snipe, snipe, cloak = 2 crit snipe, but now can't put a cloak between 2 arrow
snipe ambush light attack .... same problem cant make the combo anymore

the power of the snipe skill was his damage and his pace, they broke both, snipe is dead in pvp, to go on with a bow in pvp we will have to find another way to use it, but for the nightblade it's the end.

Garack

True bow is dead nb is dead. Zos kills more and more fun

Bladerunner1

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

TequilaFire

But what the heck you can still spam Mage's Wrath from the back of the zerg on those engaged in fighting someone else..

Blinkin8r

Improvise Adapt Overcome
Seriously if the snipe nerf really effects you that much L2P.

NyassaV

Just try not being a ganker?

Garack

ganker lol , every class can inst burst others. ganker is a term in the 2000 years when Play mmo and kill another Player over and over again.

RandomKodiak

Improvise Adapt Overcome
Seriously if the snipe nerf really effects you that much L2P.
Just try not being a ganker?

You do realize some people play PvE right? This massive nerf to bows to try to fix a PvP problem (which I agree needed fixing) will not make pvp any better but does kill bow/bow builds in PvE. Only Warden has a ranged spammable and even the bird is only slightly better than crushing weapon which is crap because of a glitchy animation. Get gud , l2p is not the problem, being forced into the same cookie cutter 2 daggers front/ bow back for all stam builds is (since they also made sure 2H is still as far behind as it is on live now). I understand there are many who play this game solely for pvp and don't give a rats butt about pve builds but if they continue to only balance this game around pvp there won't be one for long because pve players pay more subs and outnumber pvp only players at least 2 to 1. So please just because you like the changes for one aspect of the game quit trying to tell those of us that play the other aspect to just roll over and be happy that you are, it's selfish and rude.

Jagdkommando

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

pvp is not an honorable battleground where players fart rainbows - its kill and be killed - in war you dont go and say oh no the enemy in using "insert what you dont like" so its not good - nerf nerf nerf it
You adapt and thats the fun in it - i play a stam sorc - and love it when ian in a 1v1 and some bow player tries to snipe spam me - just pop a detect pot run and burst then - 9/10 they die in 5 sec
So yeah its a L2P for ppl
#stop killing the fun in pvp

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Xsorus

You actually get more burst now (discounting the bug) with the new changes.

Every time they lower the arrow flight time it makes it easier to burst with other abilities.

Juhasow

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

Bladerunner1

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

RandomKodiak

Yeah not sure where all these people that keep telling us that 2-3k dps loss is no big deal it won't matter keep showing up from. 2-3k dps loss when trying to be at all competitive is a pretty big deal and proves our point that this is a massive pve nerf, not theirs that we shouldn't be complaining.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ZoS ought to have left the damage the same on all the abilities they standardized to 1 second. Then see if it was too much.

Juhasow

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math and understand context of the parse. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability dropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

Your parses are perfectly matching testing I've made to compare DPS loss of snipe. I did way simplier test which in its simplicity allows to avoid errors. I was just spamming LA+snipe on live server and on PTS without any additional dmg buffs just pure spam with the excatly same setups with basically the same stats. On live server I was getting ~19k with that on PTS ~17k so DPS difference from both of that parses is 10-11%. That perfectly matches what You've achieved in Your parses. With basically the same crit ratios for snipe on live server Your snipe did 7,2k DPS and on PTS without berserk 6k so with berserk it would be ~6,3k making it also 10% difference. Coincidence ?

RandomKodiak

Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.

Reading is a good thing!
It is a nerf to pve dps flat out quit trying to tell us it is not. Everyone that has parsed it has come to the same conclusion that it is a nerf, just because you don't like the look of the math or don't want bow builds in game please just stop. You are wrong live with it.

Juhasow

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.

Reading is a good thing!
It is a nerf to pve dps flat out quit trying to tell us it is not. Everyone that has parsed it has come to the same conclusion that it is a nerf, just because you don't like the look of the math or don't want bow builds in game please just stop. You are wrong live with it.

I never said it's not a nerf. What I am saying is that it's miniscule nerf and I also directly respond to theory that from now on crushing wepon would suddenly come close to snipe DPS when in fact it was always close. Reading may be a good thing if You understand what You read before jumping to conclussions. Even better thing is understanding game mechanics , context of the parses and knowing some base math.

Bladerunner1

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Juhasow

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Um I think You're lost at that point. My point is that snipe change barely affects the parses at all and You helped me to prove that.

RandomKodiak

No on live Crushing is easily 3k dps less than snipe period the end. Also not sure why the animation with a bow is very glitchy and results in missed procs. Trust me I have 4 bow builds everything on live except Templar (they make horrible bows), I am no parsing god by any means and I do take that into consideration but when all of my bow builds are 2.5-3.5k higher with snipe instead of crushing when all in same gear etc, Crushing is worse, always has been. Also if after a 25% nerf snipe is still slightly better than crushing on pts your statement of "always close" is proven even more wrong. I'm not sure why you are dead set on trying to get us to ignore facts and I am done arguing but really just stop.

Bladerunner1

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Um I think You're lost at that point. My point is that snipe change barely affects the parses at all and You helped me to prove that.

My point was that snipe is now worse than crushing weapon. And so it is.
*Edit* on a Nightblade

Juhasow

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

You know things are looking bad for the bow when you consistently get better dps by slotting crushing weapon instead of the primary spammable of the bow.


Crushing Weapon - more light attacks and Assassin's Scourge procs, cleaner rotation


Focused Aim - every bit as slow to weave as it is on live

*Edit - This is with 100 ping

Someone else said Nightblade Bow/bow is the same as before, I'd really like to know what they're doing now, because all I see is a nerf.

Please go and do similar comparision of crushing weapon vs snipe on live server to give full picture.

Robust Dummy on Live:


Crushing Weapon


Focused Aim

Everything besides the dummy *and self buffed major fracture in place of dark shade* is left the same as on PTS, though I'm not sure how Penetration works on the Iron Atronach.

@Bladerunner1 problem is focused aim applies minor fracture so You end up having more penetration in parse with it so it's obvious You'll have more DPS. From that 2,5k DPS difference even over 2k may be caused simply because of penetration differences. Basically every max hit value is higher in parse with focused aim which distorts final result. That new 21M dummy on PTS is already affected by that debuff so that difference is not present on parses there. Your live server average penetration in parse with focused aim is 2,7k higher then in parse with crushing weapon which makes comparision rigged at that point. To have clear reliable view of how things have chanegd You should do parses with crushing weapon and lethal arrow on live and PTS and both comparision should be performed on 6M dummies. That way You avoid results being distorted by additional variables.

Thanks for clearing that up. Comparing the same abilities on the same dummies sans nightblade Minor Berserk, focused aim barely comes out ahead of crushing weapon on the PTS, most likely because of the minor fracture debuff.


Crushing Weapon on PTS, compared to 45587 on live



Focused Aim on PTS, compared to 48115 on live

Well that just confirms that barely anything will change for rotations with snipe which makes that 25% dmg nerf miniscule from the perspective of DPS loss. If You can get 45,5k DPS with focused aim on PTS without having minor berserk that means it would be ~48k with it which means You basically get almost the same DPS after snipe nerf. Also I would double check parses with crushing weapon on PTS vs crushing weapon on live server because that is kinda wierd You get almost the same results with and without minor berserk. I assume You got some super unlucky crits when You were performing crushing weapon parse on live server.

Bottom line is Your tests prove what I expected which is fact that differences between crushing weapon and snipe rotations are miniscule on both live server and PTS same as DPS difference between snipe on live server and PTS is also miniscule.

I dunno, guess we're just looking at different data or you're ignoring the obvious if you think 2,000 difference in DPS is miniscule. It isn't rocket science to figure out that a huge drop in skill damage causes a drop in damage over time when it takes the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks. As far as your continued criticism I'm done parsing and haven't seen any data from you.

Well I am looking at both Your snipe parses 48,1k from live server and 45,5k from PTS. It may be not rocket sciene but it's still good to know some math. It looks like You've missed very important fact that on PTS You no longer have minor berserk while using relentless focus which is isntantly lowering Your DPS. Lets assume Your base percentage increase from CPs is ~30% which makes minor berserk ~5-6% dmg increase. Now lets average it to 5,5% and add that 5,5% to 45,5k and we're getting 48k so if You would've minor berserk during that parse on PTS You would end up with excatly the same DPS as You have now on live. But You dont even need to do that math to see that that snipe nerf is miniscule since Your average DPS of that ability fropped down from 15% to 13,2% so at the end of the day with all group buffs etc snipe nerf will be causing maybe ~1% DPS loss between live server and PTS.

The loss of berserk is made up for in part by the relentless focus change, there are more assassin's scourge procs on the PTS. The other contributing factor is the lack of lag, which adds more dps to the PTS. Two parses were made on both the PTS and two on the live server since, as you mentioned earlier, the distortion of added variables needed to be accounted for. The difference shown on the PTS is 2000 less than the difference on live. That's what matters in this comparison.

Um I think You're lost at that point. My point is that snipe change barely affects the parses at all and You helped me to prove that.

My point was that snipe is now worse than crushing weapon. And so it is.
*Edit* on a Nightblade

It's not. I mean not in the way that it would be waste of slot to use snipe and not crushing weapon. Both will be now just closer then they were previously. Just find someone on live server who'll provide You with minor fracture and run some parses with crushing weapon while having that debuff or just use lethal arrow instead of focused aim so testing wont be rigged by minor fracture. You'll see that even on live server parses with crushing weapon are close to the ones with focused aim.

Juhasow

RandomKodiak wrote: »

No on live Crushing is easily 3k dps less than snipe period the end. Also not sure why the animation with a bow is very glitchy and results in missed procs. Trust me I have 4 bow builds everything on live except Templar (they make horrible bows), I am no parsing god by any means and I do take that into consideration but when all of my bow builds are 2.5-3.5k higher with snipe instead of crushing when all in same gear etc, Crushing is worse, always has been. Also if after a 25% nerf snipe is still slightly better than crushing on pts your statement of "always close" is proven even more wrong. I'm not sure why you are dead set on trying to get us to ignore facts and I am done arguing but really just stop.

Please leave math to people that still remebers it from ground school...

There is so many things that are wrong in Your short comment that explaining it would require for me to write wall of text.

Lloydmp

Garack wrote: »

Nb rely on heavy install single damage in short time otherwise it's dead.zos killed the class

I solely BG/PVP and only terrible NB’s even use snipe consistently. I mostly play stamblade these days and in all honestly the up and coming changes don’t bother me.

What the Necro will do to stamblades in PvP on the other hand .....