Master Destro staff

Maulkin

electromagnets wrote: »

L2p - it’s probably the easiest CC to avoid in pvp.

“Hey look there’s a massive flame ring moving directly toward me. I guess I’ll just roll dodge and avoid it.”

Obviously the problem with this logic is that the skill is not just CC but a damage spammable. It's cheaper than all other CCs and does more damage than all ranged spammables. People spam it because it works on CC immune targets too. So your "solution" is to basically keep dodging ad infinitum.

Based on the proposed solution, I'd say you're the one with l2p issues.

Bashev

electromagnets wrote: »

L2p - it’s probably the easiest CC to avoid in pvp.

“Hey look there’s a massive flame ring moving directly toward me. I guess I’ll just roll dodge and avoid it.”

I laughed so loud . Can we make a duel and lets see how many times you will dodge that skill when I use it as my spam attack? You will even have the advantage that it will be a duel and not a real group fight where you have so many skills effects all the time.

I will just use that skill please shields.

WrathOfInnos

Checkmath wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Master destro is too weak TBH. You have to give up a 4 pc and 5 pc set bonus to use it, and it only serves to make one skill usable. I hope to see a perfected version released soon so I can go back to using Clench/Reach without sabotaging my own build.

Its not necessarely sabotaging your build, since there are quite some sets, which only needs to be one barred. Using such sets in a build makes your sacrifice very small (one single set bonus actually) compared to what you gain by arena weapons. Sure some arena weapons arent even good, but saying master reach is balanced, because you sacrifice something for it is not really true.

ZOS logic some months ago is that ccs shoudld not be paired with high damage. Master reach would fall into that category, since its direct damage exceeds force pulse damage and also has a dot attached. Problematic is the direct damage tooltip, which can be very high, above single target spammable standards, which in the vision of ZOS shouldnt be the case. A fair change in my mind is to move the damage increase of master staves to its dot component or replace it with a debuff.

I don’t think the combined damage and CC rule applies here. Reach is a low damage, high cost skill primarily used for the CC. It’s the Master Destruction staff set bonus that adds 2k to the initial hit, giving it decent initial damage and reducing the cast cost to a level that can be sustained as a spammable.

So basically think of it as a CC skill, and a low damage proc set with a cooldown if however often you cast Reach. You can achieve much higher burst damage by losing the Master staff and completing a 5-piece proc set like Caluurions, which hits over 6X as hard (non-crit) with a 10s cooldown. Additionally you get a 4 pc bonus if you use the 2 weapon slots for a 5 pc set, while the Master destro does not bring any 1 pc bonus.

Datthaw

Bashev wrote: »

electromagnets wrote: »

L2p - it’s probably the easiest CC to avoid in pvp.

“Hey look there’s a massive flame ring moving directly toward me. I guess I’ll just roll dodge and avoid it.”

I laughed so loud . Can we make a duel and lets see how many times you will dodge that skill when I use it as my spam attack? You will even have the advantage that it will be a duel and not a real group fight where you have so many skills effects all the time.

I will just use that skill please shields.

Pfft if you think you can kill me spamming reach I will GLADLY duel you

Juhasow

The bare minimum ZoS could do would be splitting that numeric proc component from ability tooltip which would not allow it to crit. That plus fact now 1st tick of the DoT will have a delay causing it to not proc is ability is uised as spammable would lower dmg of reach spam with master destro slightly.

Datthaw

The most ridiculous thing about this thread is this set has been in the game for years. No one has ever complained about it talk about how it being o p or any of that the only complaints have been it's hard to obtain. Now all the sudden when Wings get nerfed people start crying about it.

Datthaw

What a joke

Taleof2Cities

Datthaw wrote: »

The most ridiculous thing about this thread is this set has been in the game for years. No one has ever complained about it talk about how it being o p or any of that the only complaints have been it's hard to obtain.

Someone who gets it ...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

Yeah, and you are giving up a front bar 5 piece as a tradeoff. If anything, this could use a small buff. If you die to a destructive reach spam, you have a L2P issue. As this is a CC (cooldown) and a DOT (timer), it's not meant to be spammed anyways. It can also be dodged and reflected. It's arguably the most telegraphed skill in the game. Those fire rings are hard to miss.

Juhasow

Datthaw wrote: »

The most ridiculous thing about this thread is this set has been in the game for years. No one has ever complained about it talk about how it being o p or any of that the only complaints have been it's hard to obtain. Now all the sudden when Wings get nerfed people start crying about it.

Previous version were simply not strong enough to raise complains. There were complains about that weapon ever since it was changed to 2k proc and 30% cost reduction. There was just not enough of those since huge amount of players in PvP jumped to use that weapon and it's obvious generally people wont complain about stuff that is good for them even if it overperforms.

Juhasow

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

Yeah, and you are giving up a front bar 5 piece as a tradeoff. If anything, this could use a small buff. If you die to a destructive reach spam, you have a L2P issue. As this is a CC (cooldown) and a DOT (timer), it's not meant to be spammed anyways. It can also be dodged and reflected. It's arguably the most telegraphed skill in the game. Those fire rings are hard to miss.

Are You actually "giving up" that space ? The thing is You still have 3 piece bonus of other set active at all the time plus since 2 handed weapons were changed to count as 2 items You can easily use some 5 piece bonus set on back bar without loosing any effectiveness. Even before many builds were doing that and simply using things like willpower destro on the front bar. So at the end You loose barely anything but You gain bar space since now You have stun built into Your spammable and You also get the cheapest and the strongest hitting spammable with DoT component that is also a weapon ability which also have benefits (higher chance to proc poisons/enchantments for example). It's far better then many 5 piece set bonuses on it's own and fact that You can still slot that 5 piece bonus set on back bar just makes master destro even stronger.

Bashev

Juhasow wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

Yeah, and you are giving up a front bar 5 piece as a tradeoff. If anything, this could use a small buff. If you die to a destructive reach spam, you have a L2P issue. As this is a CC (cooldown) and a DOT (timer), it's not meant to be spammed anyways. It can also be dodged and reflected. It's arguably the most telegraphed skill in the game. Those fire rings are hard to miss.

Are You actually "giving up" that space ? The thing is You still have 3 piece bonus of other set active at all the time plus since 2 handed weapons were changed to count as 2 items You can easily use some 5 piece bonus set on back bar without loosing any effectiveness. Even before many builds were doing that and simply using things like willpower destro on the front bar. So at the end You loose barely anything but You gain bar space since now You have stun built into Your spammable and You also get the cheapest and the strongest hitting spammable with DoT component that is also a weapon ability which also have benefits (higher chance to proc poisons/enchantments for example). It's far better then many 5 piece set bonuses on it's own and fact that You can still slot that 5 piece bonus set on back bar just makes master destro even stronger.

Dont bother! They know exactly how strong is the mater staff, they just dont want to be nerfed because they enjoy using it. Do you think that if I make a topic nerf some stupid skill as soul trap people will start writing and trying to defend that the skill is not good? I bet noone will bother. Some ppl will just laugh at the topic and that is.

WrathOfInnos

Bashev wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

Yeah, and you are giving up a front bar 5 piece as a tradeoff. If anything, this could use a small buff. If you die to a destructive reach spam, you have a L2P issue. As this is a CC (cooldown) and a DOT (timer), it's not meant to be spammed anyways. It can also be dodged and reflected. It's arguably the most telegraphed skill in the game. Those fire rings are hard to miss.

Are You actually "giving up" that space ? The thing is You still have 3 piece bonus of other set active at all the time plus since 2 handed weapons were changed to count as 2 items You can easily use some 5 piece bonus set on back bar without loosing any effectiveness. Even before many builds were doing that and simply using things like willpower destro on the front bar. So at the end You loose barely anything but You gain bar space since now You have stun built into Your spammable and You also get the cheapest and the strongest hitting spammable with DoT component that is also a weapon ability which also have benefits (higher chance to proc poisons/enchantments for example). It's far better then many 5 piece set bonuses on it's own and fact that You can still slot that 5 piece bonus set on back bar just makes master destro even stronger.

Dont bother! They know exactly how strong is the mater staff, they just dont want to be nerfed because they enjoy using it. Do you think that if I make a topic nerf some stupid skill as soul trap people will start writing and trying to defend that the skill is not good? I bet noone will bother. Some ppl will just laugh at the topic and that is.

It was strong from Clockwork City patch (when it was changed to current effect) until Summerset release when we were given the ability to run 5-5-2 with a staff. There’s no way the 2k additional damage (halved in PVP) is going to outweigh any of the following set bonuses on front bar:
- Spinner’s 3450 Spell Pen + 129 Spell Dmg
- Spell Strategist 629 Spell Dmg
- Amber plasm 250 mag recovery + 250 stam recovery + 129 Spell Dmg
- Shacklebreaker 2000 Magicka + 2000 Stamina + 129 Mag Recovery + 129 Stam Recovery
- Or any proc set that deals burst damage

Alternatively you could give up a 2pc monster helm set like Slimecraw, Zaan or Earthgore, which would also be a detriment to your build.

Nobody runs their primary spammable on back bar, so slotting Master Destro there is not an option. And single bar sets completed only on back bar are significantly weaker than any of the sets I listed above (Lich is the only one I would really consider useful, and it is obviously inferior to Amber Plasm).

I used to use the Master Destro, it was fun. I’d like to use it again someday, when it catches up with game balancing. I’m definitely opposed to nerfing an already weak set, just because somebody was killed by it in PvP.

Starlight_Knight

HELL NO! this is my only CC on my mag warden...

Ramber

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

You are not including the loss of a 5 piece set when you use the masters weapon so pulse may actually be much more effective depending on the set used.

Datthaw

Juhasow wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

The most ridiculous thing about this thread is this set has been in the game for years. No one has ever complained about it talk about how it being o p or any of that the only complaints have been it's hard to obtain. Now all the sudden when Wings get nerfed people start crying about it.

Previous version were simply not strong enough to raise complains. There were complains about that weapon ever since it was changed to 2k proc and 30% cost reduction. There was just not enough of those since huge amount of players in PvP jumped to use that weapon and it's obvious generally people wont complain about stuff that is good for them even if it overperforms.

And when did this change come about? I feel like it's been that way for about 2 years now I could be wrong but it seems right. Now you're telling me in the last 2 Years everybody has thought this is overpowered but nobody has said anything until now... when Wings have been nerfed.

Destyran

Ok compare second cast of asylum staff and see what has more damage. Why do you care about this leave *** alone we need balance not more nerfs.

Kikke

Buff master destro as it is under performing, slow, and easily countered with block or dodge roll.

Galarthor

Maulkin wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Master Destro is a little too good right now.

It is not used so much b/c it is too good, it is used b/c of the lack of alternatives.

E.g. Sorcs lack a reliable class stun and a spammable, so they use Reach. Now Sorcs would prefer to use Force Pulse / Crushing Shock to prevent uncontrollable CC immunity, but without a reliable stun that is not viable. Also the lack of bar space forces makes a 2in1 ability even more attractive, despite its clumsyness, easy dodgability, and the uncontrollable CC immunity.

Errrm no.

Flame Reach is less reliable than Rune Cage. It can be blocked and reflected as well as dodged, when Rune Cage can only be dodged. And it’s not any more reliable than the recently added magWarden stun, yet magwardens also use it religiously. Reliability is not an issue at all.

The reason these classes use Reach is because it does 2 things in 1. Both spammable and stun. Therefore saves bar space for other skills. It’s only magplar than has no stun and really lacks alternatives.

You'd have to be asleep or completely out of resources to be stunned by Rune Cage. The delay is just too long. The delay also does not line up with other delayed abilities, so that you can't properly time them to use the stun to ensure your damage hits in the first place.

Also the Opportunity Cost of Rune Cage is just too high. It is the easiest to avoid stun in the entire game. And even if it hits the target, it does nothing but stun it. And since you cannot align the stun with your burst, it doesn't even ensure your damage hit. So all that skill does is cost you a global cooldown for applying it and your opponent a global cooldown for breaking it. You don't really gain anything from that. This means there is also no point in spamming it against a dodging target.

Reach has none of these short-comings or at least has them to a lesser extent. If it hits it stuns and deals damage, so that global cooldown is not completely wasted. It's not as easy to avoid as Rune Cage b/c the delay is far shorter. It thus viable to be spammed against dodging targets.

There is exactly 1 dimension in which Rune Cage outperforms Reach: it goes through block. But as I already said in the beginning, you'd have to be out of resources or asleep to be hit by it. Since it announces itself way ahead of time even a perma-blockinger can avoid it by simply dodging. And even if he doesn't CC hit, and perma-blocker breaks it, has block back up before any meaningful damage can hit.

InvictusApollo

STOP WITH THE NERFS!!! THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS!

Maulkin

Galarthor wrote: »

You'd have to be asleep or completely out of resources to be stunned by Rune Cage. The delay is just too long. The delay also does not line up with other delayed abilities, so that you can't properly time them to use the stun to ensure your damage hits in the first place.

That's enough. It's quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about and there's no need to discuss further.

Lord-Otto

Checkmath wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Master destro is too weak TBH. You have to give up a 4 pc and 5 pc set bonus to use it, and it only serves to make one skill usable. I hope to see a perfected version released soon so I can go back to using Clench/Reach without sabotaging my own build.

Its not necessarely sabotaging your build, since there are quite some sets, which only needs to be one barred. Using such sets in a build makes your sacrifice very small (one single set bonus actually) compared to what you gain by arena weapons. Sure some arena weapons arent even good, but saying master reach is balanced, because you sacrifice something for it is not really true.

ZOS logic some months ago is that ccs shoudld not be paired with high damage. Master reach would fall into that category, since its direct damage exceeds force pulse damage and also has a dot attached. Problematic is the direct damage tooltip, which can be very high, above single target spammable standards, which in the vision of ZOS shouldnt be the case. A fair change in my mind is to move the damage increase of master staves to its dot component or replace it with a debuff.

God, no!
It's being used as a spammable, and that means upfront damage. Dizzying still stuns and requires no set. Giving up two permanent five pieces (Necro+Shackle/Bright-Throat) or an additional frontbar Willpower is quite a sacrifice.
And worry not, that is exactly why ZOS' design philosophy is still intact: it's not a spammable with a CC attached - it's the gear on top. Compare that to Infernal Guardian hitting after a CC move like Streak. Same thing, two set pieces to get additional burst. Comboed with an average-damage CC skill. Cooldown as long as CC immunity, so practically spammable. No contradiction here.

Juhasow

Datthaw wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

The most ridiculous thing about this thread is this set has been in the game for years. No one has ever complained about it talk about how it being o p or any of that the only complaints have been it's hard to obtain. Now all the sudden when Wings get nerfed people start crying about it.

Previous version were simply not strong enough to raise complains. There were complains about that weapon ever since it was changed to 2k proc and 30% cost reduction. There was just not enough of those since huge amount of players in PvP jumped to use that weapon and it's obvious generally people wont complain about stuff that is good for them even if it overperforms.

And when did this change come about? I feel like it's been that way for about 2 years now I could be wrong but it seems right. Now you're telling me in the last 2 Years everybody has thought this is overpowered but nobody has said anything until now... when Wings have been nerfed.

It was like 18 months ago. The thing is it was getting also side buffs since that moment. For example for some time magsorcs were using rune cage because how broken it was but because it was nerfed pretty hard they moved to use that set. Changes to 2 handed weapons being count as 2 items also made master weapons way better since after that change You can wear 5/5/2 setup and master destro on front bar on top of that.

In clockwork city there was an increase of duration for the wings and later on there was snare removal added on top of that so for short period of time there was slightly more dks then usual since they wanted to check new changes but those numbers later on started to drop. Initial slight increase in numbers of dk was keeping master destro reach spammers in check. Wings were the only natural counter keeping that weapon from being braindead strong CC spam. Now when reflection is gone it's highly possible we'll see way more builds running with master destro simply because of how strong it is when it doesnt have counters.

Also there were people that were raising their concerns about turning reach into cheap high dmg spammable with CC ever since master destro got reworked in clockwork city. Like I said previously You wont see many people complaining about certain stuff if it's used by many of them and it's part of many builds for almost every class. Basically every magicka class can have a setup currently that can use that weapon effectively and class that fits the less to use it is dk which is the only class that can deal with it so it's no suprise not many people complain if so many people is using it. If 50% of Cyrodill would run with snipe You would also see less complains about that ability.

Juhasow

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Master destro is too weak TBH. You have to give up a 4 pc and 5 pc set bonus to use it, and it only serves to make one skill usable. I hope to see a perfected version released soon so I can go back to using Clench/Reach without sabotaging my own build.

Its not necessarely sabotaging your build, since there are quite some sets, which only needs to be one barred. Using such sets in a build makes your sacrifice very small (one single set bonus actually) compared to what you gain by arena weapons. Sure some arena weapons arent even good, but saying master reach is balanced, because you sacrifice something for it is not really true.

ZOS logic some months ago is that ccs shoudld not be paired with high damage. Master reach would fall into that category, since its direct damage exceeds force pulse damage and also has a dot attached. Problematic is the direct damage tooltip, which can be very high, above single target spammable standards, which in the vision of ZOS shouldnt be the case. A fair change in my mind is to move the damage increase of master staves to its dot component or replace it with a debuff.

God, no!
It's being used as a spammable, and that means upfront damage. Dizzying still stuns and requires no set. Giving up two permanent five pieces (Necro+Shackle/Bright-Throat) or an additional frontbar Willpower is quite a sacrifice.
And worry not, that is exactly why ZOS' design philosophy is still intact: it's not a spammable with a CC attached - it's the gear on top. Compare that to Infernal Guardian hitting after a CC move like Streak. Same thing, two set pieces to get additional burst. Comboed with an average-damage CC skill. Cooldown as long as CC immunity, so practically spammable. No contradiction here.

Dizzying is an expensive 1 second cast time meele ability with just upfront damage so there is huge difference between that and instant cast , cheap range ability with DoT on top of it.

Philospphy may not be bad but implementation of it and current numbers are overtuned.

Infernal guardian is not hitting after a CC. It requires shield to cast. It's a proc set that cant crit while master destro proc component can crit. Infernal guardian have cooldown and cannot be targeted at anyone You want when master destro have no cooldown and You can target anyone You want with it. There is many more differences like that making sets like infernal guardian inferior when compared to master destro.

Juhasow

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Right now the modification of this skill is too strong. My proposal is the damage should be increased to 2.5k (which is added to the skill so it can crit) and 30% cost reduction but the CC effect should be removed. Otherwise the skill should be considered as an exception as it does CC and it is a spamable instant cast attack at the same time. Back in the time wrecking blow lost the stun, now snipe is losing the major defile and these skills are with cast time. I think that the master staff should keep the damage and the cost reduction but it should lose the CC part.

Now some maths:
Stats:
3k spell damage 30k magicka
Force Pulse:

• damage: 1893*3 = 5679
• cost: 2700

Destructive Reach:

• damage: 3690 + 2000 = 5690 (+ 4916 DoT)
• cost: 3802 * 0.7 = 2661

At the end Destructive Reach is same cost, same damage if we dont count the dot but we have the CC.

Now if you have more cost reduction the Destructive Reach is getting way cheaper than Force Pulse

Lets check the cost for 5 light armor breton character. That is 10% + 7% extra cost reduction.
Force Pulse cost will be: 2700*0.83 = 2241
Destructive Reach cost will be: 3802*0.53 = 2015

The more % cost reduction you stack the cheaper the skill will be.

Yeah, and you are giving up a front bar 5 piece as a tradeoff. If anything, this could use a small buff. If you die to a destructive reach spam, you have a L2P issue. As this is a CC (cooldown) and a DOT (timer), it's not meant to be spammed anyways. It can also be dodged and reflected. It's arguably the most telegraphed skill in the game. Those fire rings are hard to miss.

Are You actually "giving up" that space ? The thing is You still have 3 piece bonus of other set active at all the time plus since 2 handed weapons were changed to count as 2 items You can easily use some 5 piece bonus set on back bar without loosing any effectiveness. Even before many builds were doing that and simply using things like willpower destro on the front bar. So at the end You loose barely anything but You gain bar space since now You have stun built into Your spammable and You also get the cheapest and the strongest hitting spammable with DoT component that is also a weapon ability which also have benefits (higher chance to proc poisons/enchantments for example). It's far better then many 5 piece set bonuses on it's own and fact that You can still slot that 5 piece bonus set on back bar just makes master destro even stronger.

Dont bother! They know exactly how strong is the mater staff, they just dont want to be nerfed because they enjoy using it. Do you think that if I make a topic nerf some stupid skill as soul trap people will start writing and trying to defend that the skill is not good? I bet noone will bother. Some ppl will just laugh at the topic and that is.

It was strong from Clockwork City patch (when it was changed to current effect) until Summerset release when we were given the ability to run 5-5-2 with a staff. There’s no way the 2k additional damage (halved in PVP) is going to outweigh any of the following set bonuses on front bar:
- Spinner’s 3450 Spell Pen + 129 Spell Dmg
- Spell Strategist 629 Spell Dmg
- Amber plasm 250 mag recovery + 250 stam recovery + 129 Spell Dmg
- Shacklebreaker 2000 Magicka + 2000 Stamina + 129 Mag Recovery + 129 Stam Recovery
- Or any proc set that deals burst damage

Alternatively you could give up a 2pc monster helm set like Slimecraw, Zaan or Earthgore, which would also be a detriment to your build.

Nobody runs their primary spammable on back bar, so slotting Master Destro there is not an option. And single bar sets completed only on back bar are significantly weaker than any of the sets I listed above (Lich is the only one I would really consider useful, and it is obviously inferior to Amber Plasm).

I used to use the Master Destro, it was fun. I’d like to use it again someday, when it catches up with game balancing. I’m definitely opposed to nerfing an already weak set, just because somebody was killed by it in PvP.

I would like to remind You that all damage is cut in half in Cyrodill so most of the sets You've mentioned is also being halved In Cyrodill because whatever damage boost those sets will give You outside of Cyrodill it'll be halved inside it which is basically the same as with master destro.

Still I could agree that just 2k proc wouldnt outweight those mentioned by You sets.But it's not just "2k additional dmg". It's one of the few proc sets with numeric components that can crit because it's part of ability tooltip not separate proc so it's getting all damage increases that destructive reach underlies including 10% spell penetration from destruction stuff tree. Second of all it turns reach into Your spammable making it one of the cheapest spammabels in the game while also having one of the better tooptips if we consider 1st tick of DoT as a part of spamming it and whole DoT when You let it tick. It also have CC within it so You are not forced to slot CC anymore on Your bars which saves You 1 additional skill slot. Fact that You dont have to use any CC also saves You additional amount of magicka since usually CCs are more expensive then spammable abilities and when CC is avoided You would normally have to cast it second time casuing even higher loss of magicka when in case of master destro You'll simply land that stun sooner or later and You doont have to bother with draining Your magicka for that.

As for wasting that 4 piece bonuses from other sets it's not that big of a deal to be honest. You can either use willpower jewelery which is basically almost compensating for that 4 piece bonus or You can use 4 and 5 piece bonus of some set on 2nd bar. basically we can compare master destro to just 5th piece bonuses of some sets.

So lets summarize it. Master destro is 2k crittable proc that can be affected by all percentage bonuses with 10% penetration that frees up 1 skill slot which improves sustain of the user and provides him with way easier way to stun enemies. It doesnt look like "2k additional dmg" anymore isnt it ? It sounds like having 3x average or 2x good 5 piece bonus set on 1 item.

TheYKcid

So to summarize, despite:

• Sacrificing two frontbar gear slots
• Heavily restricting the choice of your 2nd 5pc set
• Incurring significantly lower tooltips on all the other skills on your bar aside from your spammable
• Losing the capacity to dictate your opponent's immunity windows as soon as you begin applying pressure

...we are not allowed to have a spammable that hits as hard as Force Pulse. Nice.

Bashev

TheYKcid wrote: »

So to summarize, despite:

• Sacrificing two frontbar gear slots
• Heavily restricting the choice of your 2nd 5pc set
• Incurring significantly lower tooltips on all the other skills on your bar aside from your spammable
• Losing the capacity to dictate your opponent's immunity windows as soon as you begin applying pressure

...we are not allowed to have a spammable that hits as hard as Force Pulse. Nice.

@TheYKcid Based on your summery you conclude that it is not worth it to slot master staff on your "Kalaron Caemor — Altmer non-pet Magsorc"? Can you share your build if it is not secret?

Based on your previous post:

TheYKcid wrote: »

PvP-wise, since Wrathstone:

Nonpet Sorc is strong again imo, and in a very competitive spot (except vs. Wings, forever hardcountered).

Petsorc was already OP pre-patch, and is now OP AF.

I can conclude that you are not using crushing as spamable? Otherwise you just have only one sorc skill that is reflectable.

TheYKcid

A little stalk-y there, mate, but I can overlook that.

You are right, though. I do run Master Destro in my build. It frees up a barslot—which enables me to run Surge instead of relying on pots for Major Sorcery, and I value the utility of that, in spite of the downsides I listed in my first post.

Given my current build, Force Pulse has a higher tooltip than Destro Reach. That is assuming no changes to the gear setup whatsoever. In a practical, real-world build comparison however, the Pulse build is able to frontbar a 2nd 5pc set (eg. Spinners), and this also compounds with the fact that it enjoys a surplus of one 1-4pc set bonus equivalent over the Destro Reach setup. This would easily give it upwards of a 5% advantage not only on the Pulse tooltip, but on every other skill in the rotation as well.

Basically, it's a choice between raw damage and utility (call be crazy but this seems like a healthy tradeoff), and I chose the latter. I'm not sure what relevance my personal choice has to an objective balance debate, though, so your persistent questioning is a little odd.

Your damage comparison in the OP was a little misleading, by the way. You gave a scenario where Pulse & Destro Reach tied for damage, but didn't mention that it was the inflection point of the relationship. For Pulse, having a combined Spell Damage Equivalent of more than 6067 means it will out-damage Destro Reach.

Proof:

(0.31982*3)x = (0.62984)x + 2000
x = 6067

where the coefficients of x are the spell damage-scaling coefficients of Pulse & Reach respectively

This works out to 2.5k SD and 36.7k mag. Or 3k SD and 31.6k mag. Or any other combination of the two at a ratio of 10.29.
These are pretty easy stats to achieve, and at anything higher than this, the Pulse tooltip will increasingly outpace Destro Reach's, so it's a little unreasonable to say that Reach builds beat or even tie with Pulse in terms of damage.

And this is even before accounting for the fact that, ceteris paribus, the Destro Reach build will always have lower stats due to the itemisation limitations I mentioned above.

Bashev

TheYKcid wrote: »

A little stalk-y there, mate, but I can overlook that.

You are right, though. I do run Master Destro in my build. It frees up a barslot—which enables me to run Surge instead of relying on pots for Major Sorcery, and I value the utility of that, in spite of the downsides I listed in my first post.

Given my current build, Force Pulse has a higher tooltip than Destro Reach. That is assuming no changes to the gear setup whatsoever. In a practical, real-world build comparison however, the Pulse build is able to frontbar a 2nd 5pc set (eg. Spinners), and this also compounds with the fact that it enjoys a surplus of one 1-4pc set bonus equivalent over the Destro Reach setup. This would easily give it upwards of a 5% advantage not only on the Pulse tooltip, but on every other skill in the rotation as well.

Basically, it's a choice between raw damage and utility (call be crazy but this seems like a healthy tradeoff), and I chose the latter. I'm not sure what relevance my personal choice has to an objective balance debate, though, so your persistent questioning is a little odd.

Your damage comparison in the OP was a little misleading, by the way. You gave a scenario where Pulse & Destro Reach tied for damage, but didn't mention that it was the inflection point of the relationship. For Pulse, having a combined Spell Damage Equivalent of more than 6067 means it will out-damage Destro Reach.

Proof:

(0.31982*3)x = (0.62984)x + 2000
x = 6067

where the coefficients of x are the spell damage-scaling coefficients of Pulse & Reach respectively

This works out to 2.5k SD and 36.7k mag. Or 3k SD and 31.6k mag. Or any other combination of the two at a ratio of 10.29.
These are pretty easy stats to achieve, and at anything higher than this, the Pulse tooltip will increasingly outpace Destro Reach's, so it's a little unreasonable to say that Reach builds beat or even tie with Pulse in terms of damage.

And this is even before accounting for the fact that, ceteris paribus, the Destro Reach build will always have lower stats due to the itemisation limitations I mentioned above.

Thanks for your thoughts. As you play in NA i had no idea how you play that is why I checked your posts cause you sound as a reasonable guy.

I tried to compare the stats with same value as most of the builds that use master staff use a second set that is very suitable for a back bar set (ex. lich, warlock, etc)

Brrrofski

You also lose a 5 piece to all your other skills just to buff one to a good spammable. Ok, you can back bar something, but you could still slot a will power staff to buff everything else