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Akaviri...not snake folk :/
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 3, 2019 12:47AM7 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2019 4:50AMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.1 -
storm105✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.5 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Personally, I'd say jury is still out on that.RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »After playing through the Elsweyr chapter I felt that they had completely killed the dream regarding the Tsaesci being snake people...
There is conflicting lore here... but there Also is the possibility of the truth changing over time.
Thing is... the ones in elsweyr? EVERY one in elsweyr?? They all came with the first akaviri invasion, back in the first era, centuries before ESO. And like often mentioned, there is that whole "snakefolk ate the akaviri men" thing... but without any date to as to when it happened.
It would be logical to assume that this "first invasion" was the last akaviri humans fleeing being eaten, possibly with some allied snakefolk (since there are usually some who side with those the rest of their people are trying to murder) and coming to tamriel to be a part of the formation of the empire...
...and that by now, all the "tsaesci" left in akavir are -truly- snakefolk, having finished "eating" all the men, and maybe even taking their culture and name for their own?
Truth, that. And I did mention they have conflicting stories, did I not?MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
Agreed. However... that comparison lacks somewhat when talking about a fictional universe without any -actual- factual truth that might be uncovered.MLGProPlayer wrote: »They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
It might be better to say, "Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Norse myths at face value in the marvel universe. - yes, the marvel universe is based on characters from norse myth, but their writers put their own spin on it.
Just like ZOS can (and possibly will) put their own spin on any of the older TES lore...
So in the end... they can pretty much do whatever they like.I was not happy when I saw that Tsaesci are just asian humans and not snake people but now I am happy with this new lore...
It would be possible within the lore.
Go with the "first era tsaesci were asian humans, fled to tamriel as they started getting eaten by snakefolk, second (ESO) era descendants of those asian humans live on tamriel while over in akavir its all snakefolk... to be discovered in a future expansion!" thing?
But... I guess that's up to ZOS, they might go there, or not.
Me, I'd love to see it done this way... personally, when I think of "Tsaesci Snakefolk", I most often am reminded of an old, old fantasy movie, "The Archer, Fugitive from the Empire" that I saw as a kid... which had some cool (for that time) snakefolk baddies:
...but hey, that's me.4 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2019 4:43PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?
starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
Edited by Drachenfier on September 3, 2019 5:39PM0 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Abnur Tharn born 2E 418. Savirien-Chorak dies 2E 430. There's every chance that Tharn would have seen Savirien-Chorak with his own eyes. I think it's a pity we can't just ask him about it.
PC EU0 -
So I understand the whole unreliable narrator concept. I get that whatever lorebook quote we throw here won't mean it's the absolute truth. Still, here goes one more:
"No one in the crowd, aside from a few scattered Akaviri counselors and the Potentate himself wanted Savirien-Chorak to win, but there was a collective intake of breath at the sight of his graceful movements. His swords seemed to be a part of him, a tail coming from his arms to match the one behind him." - From '2920, The Last Year of the First Era' (a book you can find in ESO).
I've always found fascinating that people would not be able to tell if 2 of their emperors had tails. I mean, in ESO, we're not that far from the period when they rule. Forget about magical devices that record moving images with sounds. You're telling me no one has ever painted them? In our world, we know how rulers of previous centuries more or less looked like (even if their paintings were supposed to be flattering). But in Tamriel no one knows?
The unreliable narrator concept is very hard to justify sometimes.3 -
storm105✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2019 6:53PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
The description of the Tsaesci you wrote is simply your own headcanon, and is thus biased. A more truthful comparison (based on the things we know might be true about the Tsaesci and the Akaviri humans) would be:
- Possibly vampiric and/or immortal snake-people who enslaved the humans of Akavir, and
- A human race inspired by East Asian cultures with a "serpentine twist" that makes their culture heavily based on snakes and snake symbolism.
Your "theory" just makes me think of Mind Flayers, and while I do enjoy a good Illithid, I don't think creatures such as that would "fit" into TES Lore. Now, that isn't to say that snake-people don't exist: I'd say it's highly likely that the snake-like Tsaesci inhabit their part of Akavir together with the Akaviri humans (either peacefully or through enslavement, most likely the latter), which act as the bulk of their war forces and such (and also make up pretty much all of the Akaviri "immigrants" who came to Tamriel). Just because one exists doesn't mean that the other can't exist. It's also likely that the Akaviri humans outnumber the snake-like Tsaesci, since if they are immortal (or at least very long-lived), they wouldn't need to reproduce as much when compared to a race of men (like the difference between men and mer, think the Night of Tears).
There are very few actual records of snake-like Tsaesci (many of which have been linked into this thread already), and many more that refer to Akaviri humans, but it is still possible for both of them to coexist. However, snake-like Tsaesci on Tamriel are gone at this point, and it would make little sense as to why a "colony" of them would live in Elsweyr, especially since we know that Akaviri humans exist and have interbred with the Imperials of Cyrodiil, the descendants of which include the inhabitants of Hakoshae, for example.Edited by Benzux on September 3, 2019 7:28PMBenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
The description of the Tsaesci you wrote is simply your own headcanon, and is thus biased. A more truthful comparison (based on the things we know might be true about the Tsaesci and the Akaviri humans) would be:
- Possibly vampiric and/or immortal snake-people who enslaved the humans of Akavir, and
- A human race inspired by East Asian cultures with a "serpentine twist" that makes their culture heavily based on snakes and snake symbolism.
Your "theory" just makes me think of Mind Flayers, and while I do enjoy a good Illithid, I don't think creatures such as that would "fit" into TES Lore. Now, that isn't to say that snake-people don't exist: I'd say it's highly likely that the snake-like Tsaesci inhabit their part of Akavir together with the Akaviri humans (either peacefully or through enslavement, most likely the latter), which act as the bulk of their war forces and such (and also make up pretty much all of the Akaviri "immigrants" who came to Tamriel). Just because one exists doesn't mean that the other can't exist. It's also likely that the Akaviri humans outnumber the snake-like Tsaesci, since if they are immortal (or at least very long-lived), they wouldn't need to reproduce as much when compared to a race of men (like the difference between men and mer, think the Night of Tears).
There are very few actual records of snake-like Tsaesci (many of which have been linked into this thread already), and many more that refer to Akaviri humans, but it is still possible for both of them to coexist. However, snake-like Tsaesci on Tamriel are gone at this point, and it would make little sense as to why a "colony" of them would live in Elsweyr, especially since we know that Akaviri humans exist and have interbred with the Imperials of Cyrodiil, the descendants of which include the inhabitants of Hakoshae, for example.
That theory, as I said, is just one of many. My point was that Bethesda / Zenimax had a ton of potential that they squandered. Thats why I didnt just leave it at "vampire snakes" like you suggested I should have. I was simply showcasing one direction they could've taken, and how they've now limited themselves.
Also what are Ilithid from? Now you got me curious.Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2019 7:33PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
storm105✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2019 11:29PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
storm105✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't2 -
Chaos2088✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not going to lie when we get a full blown expansion...I hope its to Akavir.....I will make a squealing noise and record it and put it on here for all of you to laugh at.
@Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't
Jesus dude I do not understand why you have to be so rude. Are just mad because of the ayleid discussion? I noticed you stopped responding to that one after we disputed your claim and started fighting with me here. Let it go. I'm gonna stop before this turns into a flame war.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
storm105✭✭✭
I actually just didn't care enough to check any of the recect post on that thread. I'll go do that now I just don't think making them human makes them mundane and I feel like your idea doesn't work for anything but a sci-fi.if anything I find it less interesting then if they were just liamaspsychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't
Jesus dude I do not understand why you have to be so rude. Are just mad because of the ayleid discussion? I noticed you stopped responding to that one after we disputed your claim and started fighting with me here. Let it go. I'm gonna stop before this turns into a flame war.Edited by storm105 on September 4, 2019 12:38AM1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Actually Akavir is too big for expansion size. its a continent in the range of "whole tamriel"!Not going to lie when we get a full blown expansion...I hope its to Akavir...
(Not official maps, but... peoples estimates.)
But...
...we know from the lore about the empires attempted invasion into akavir in the third era (about 600 years in the future of ESO) that there -are- three islands between the continents of Tamriel and Akavir, Esroniet, Yneslea and Cathnoquey, which would obviously be in akaviri hands at this time in the second era, and almost certainly have been the staging areas for the akaviri invasion that gave borth to the Ebonheart Pact ten years before ESO...
...and thus would make a -perfect- zones for a shiny new expansion someday, following our characters there to find out the story behind that invasion, meet the akaviri races and culture (and on occasion, kill them), do loads of questing (there is much that could be stole... uhm... "borrowed" from eastern myth and tales to make some quests with an entirely new feel I reckon), and resolve whatever was behind it before another (which might already be in preperation - it would be nice to have an expansion with a purely -mundane- mainquest plot sometime) kicks off...
Moreso as we have no lore-fixed locations for those islands yet, so they could plausibly be widely different. Start with meeting some friendly Tang Mo traders who might serve as your guides and transportation, visiting the less friendly Ka Po'Tun on the lush tropical southern isle, proceed to meet the Tsaesci on the arid, mountainous middle one, end up dealing with the Kamal preparing for a new invasion on the snowy northern one?
I could totally see that happening as a superb expansion to ESO! Maybe adding some more stuff, like new weapon skill lines... (I really want to see polearms for Tang Mo and "magical martial arts" for an asien fantasy feel!)
Like: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii/p1
Additionally, such an expansion could set the stage for them allowing akaviri races to be unlocked in the crown store too if they choose to... tho I reckon they might want to test the waters before that with a few others...
Like: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1 2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not going to lie when we get a full blown expansion...I hope its to Akavir.....I will make a squealing noise and record it and put it on here for all of you to laugh at.
It's too big for an expansion. Maybe we'll get a spinoff TES game one day set in Akavir (extremely unlikely, but one can hope).Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 4, 2019 1:59AM0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
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I actually just didn't care enough to check any of the recect post on that thread. I'll go do that now I just don't think making them human makes them mundane and I feel like your idea doesn't work for anything but a sci-fi.if anything I find it less interesting then if they were just liamaspsychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't
Jesus dude I do not understand why you have to be so rude. Are just mad because of the ayleid discussion? I noticed you stopped responding to that one after we disputed your claim and started fighting with me here. Let it go. I'm gonna stop before this turns into a flame war.
Just for the record I don't care about "my" idea. It wasnt even my own theory. I was just using it as an example of how they could have used the snake references instead of throwing them out.
At the end of the day, we really just have drastically different tastes in fantasy it seems, which is fine. I enjoy humans based on lesser used cultures, elves that feel exotic and strange, and mysterious races that feel truly bizarre. Thats what seperated the elder scrolls from other fantasy for me.
I dont really see how its a sci fi idea for the tsaesci to be snakes though. Especially when we have things like the dwemer and the numidium stomping around.Edited by psychotrip on September 4, 2019 2:33AMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
storm105✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »
I actually just didn't care enough to check any of the recect post on that thread. I'll go do that now I just don't think making them human makes them mundane and I feel like your idea doesn't work for anything but a sci-fi.if anything I find it less interesting then if they were just liamaspsychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't
Jesus dude I do not understand why you have to be so rude. Are just mad because of the ayleid discussion? I noticed you stopped responding to that one after we disputed your claim and started fighting with me here. Let it go. I'm gonna stop before this turns into a flame war.
Just for the record I don't care about "my" idea. It wasnt even my own theory. I was just using it as an example of how they could have used the snake references instead of throwing them out.
At the end of the day, we really just have drastically different tastes in fantasy it seems, which is fine. I enjoy humans based on lesser used cultures, elves that feel exotic and strange, and mysterious races that feel truly bizarre. Thats what seperated the elder scrolls from other fantasy for me.
I dont really see how its a sci fi idea for the tsaesci to be snakes though. Especially when we have things like the dwemer and the numidium stomping around.
None of the elves feel exotic at all except for the dunmer and that's partially a result of their religion and their environment being so radically different than every other Providence. They are the only race that feels alien to mem The altmer have more in common with bretons and imperials than the Redguards do and the bosmer have a lot of typical wood elf troops if we are being honest. Redguards are one of the most exotic races and they are humans. Also I apologize if I came off as rude earlier I was not in the best mood and I am so tired of the humans are automatically less interesting debate that I hear so often.Edited by storm105 on September 4, 2019 2:45AM0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »
I actually just didn't care enough to check any of the recect post on that thread. I'll go do that now I just don't think making them human makes them mundane and I feel like your idea doesn't work for anything but a sci-fi.if anything I find it less interesting then if they were just liamaspsychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
What I'm hear is humans vs not humans. This one of the arguments I hate the most in elder scrolls. Because something is human that instantly makes it less interesting than walking cartoon snakes? Come on I hate the argument of human=normal without looking at anything else. Like is said them being human does not matter at all. If you think it does you are wrong what matters is how their lore and culture is addressed. What if argonians or dunmer suddenly became humans but kept their lore and culture. Would that make them less interesting. If you think so then you aren't really a real fan them. Humans=normal is one of the worst arguments I've heard and even attempting to use it makes you lose all credibility to me.Drachenfier wrote: »The only Akaviri I found in Elsweyr is the sword master WB. She was wearing full armor so you can't tell her looks, but she certainly does not have a snake lower body or snake tail
quite a bummer, also I didn't find any interactable Akaviri in Rimmen or other places （That being said, the palace of rimmen don't have any NPC, so when ZOS fill it up we might see some Akaviri）
A picture tells it all
Akavir is a continent like Tamriel. It has probably many races and subraces, like Tamriel has.
I probably wont live long enought to see all of Nirn. Can we get 2 game updates a year please ?starkerealm wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
So, much like your posts?
Sarcasm aside, information on the races of Akavir can be accepted with some reservations. Encounters with Akavir occured within living memory of the events of ESO. When multiple writers intersect with similar information (without one drawing on the other as their source), you can hesitantly start to accept some of that information as having some kind of basis.
While The Elder Scrolls does make use of unreliable narrators, simply ignoring everything that hasn't been personally witnessed is a bit excessive. So long as you remember the phrase, "contents subject to change," you should be fine.
The existence of a race of Akaviri snake people seems likely. The existence of other Akaviri races seems equally likely.
Nobody in recent years has seen. Tscasei. The recent Akiviri invasion was made up of Kamal which is a different race and none of the Invaders were described as snake like. The idea that the tscascei are just humans with lots of snake imagery seems more likely
They must have been described that way at some point, because I don't really follow the lore and just skim through lorebooks, however I do listen to and read all the quests and I was under the distinct impression all this time (since launch - and my first EP playthrough) that the Akaviri invasion was perpetrated by snake men.
It wasn't every source days that the recent akaviri invasion was headed by Kamal. If they were any tscascei then they were probably mercaneries but the Kamal made up and lead the invasion. I can understand your confusion as the tscaseci are the more represented of the akaviri races in terms of lore
If all you "heard" from my post is humans vs non-humans, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. You're reducing my argument to a single, easily dismissed sentence that doesn't even reflect what I think at all. This has less to do with what race the tsaesci are then it has to do with Zenimax throwing out an idea with a ton of potential in favor of going with a more "normal" interpretation.
The problem is I don't find your suggestion any more or less interesting. I don't find it a waste of potential either because the culture of each race matters far more than anything else. Like I said it's just people whining because they find humans boring
Can you stop putting words in my mouth and insinuating that I'm whining? I'm trying to have an actual discussion here. You realize that my profile pic is the redguard symbol right? I have no problem with humans in fantasy.
What you don't seem to understand about my viewpoint is that physiology and anatomy can have a massive impact on a society's culture. Thats the missed opportunity here.
I always liked the idea that Akavir was somehow fundamentally alien to Tamriel, and this was one way bethesda could've accomplished that.
They could've gone in any direction they wanted, and done SOMETHING with all the conflicting descriptions, and yet they decided to do nothing. It ultimately has nothing to do with their species. If the tsaesci were speculated from the beginning to be Japanese inspired HUMANS, with some OTHER bizarre trait, and zenimax decided to say "transcription error" and CHIM it away, i'd be making the exact same argument.
My other issue is that this is yet another example of Zenimax taking the less grounded, more fantastical elements of their lore and "toning it down". I'm just tired of it is all. Again, I understand that maybe you enjoy more realiatic, grounded fantasy. But thats not why a lot of us got into this series.
So no, I dont hate this simply because they're human. That's such a reductive take on what I'm saying here.
I'm starting to think we can't have this argument in good faith. You seem more concerned with putting words in my mouth, reducing my arguments into soundbytes, and insulting me by saying I'm "whining". So I'm done.
Lol your whole argument was about how mumans are mundane compared to your fan theory. It isn't and other people have even pointed this out. Zenimax seems to be taken the approach hinted at in older games. Like I said a book in Morrowind just calls them humans and I really don't see how parasites can develop a culture that can't be achieved if they weren't. I'm dismissing your arguments because you haven't made a good one and still haven't
Jesus dude I do not understand why you have to be so rude. Are just mad because of the ayleid discussion? I noticed you stopped responding to that one after we disputed your claim and started fighting with me here. Let it go. I'm gonna stop before this turns into a flame war.
Just for the record I don't care about "my" idea. It wasnt even my own theory. I was just using it as an example of how they could have used the snake references instead of throwing them out.
At the end of the day, we really just have drastically different tastes in fantasy it seems, which is fine. I enjoy humans based on lesser used cultures, elves that feel exotic and strange, and mysterious races that feel truly bizarre. Thats what seperated the elder scrolls from other fantasy for me.
I dont really see how its a sci fi idea for the tsaesci to be snakes though. Especially when we have things like the dwemer and the numidium stomping around.
None of the elves feel exotic at all except for the dunmer and that's partially a result of their religion and their environment being so radically different than every other Providence. They are the only race that feels alien to mem The altmer have more in common with bretons and imperials than the Redguards do and the bosmer have a lot of typical wood elf troops if we are being honest. Redguards are one of the most exotic races and they are humans. Also I apologize if I came off as rude earlier I was not in the best mood and I am so tired of the humans are automatically less interesting debate that I hear so often.
I understand, and I agree with what you're saying here about the other races. It's kind of my overarching point in fact. Overtime Zenimax / Bethesda have toned down and "normalized" the more fantastical aspects of the lore, especially when it comes to non-dunmer elves, and now it seems the tsaesci.
I want to emphasize, if tsaesci were ALWAYS AND ONLY EVER described as humans, but had some other bizarre trait, I'd still be here making the same arguments if zenimax threw that trait into the garbage instead of doing something creative with it. Thats what this comes down to: the choice between embracing the less grounded aspects of the lore, or tossing them out as transcription errors. Zenimax seems to do the latter whenever they can get away with it.
No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.0 -
Kalik_Gold✭✭✭✭✭
✭So an Imperial with the Argonian or Maormer skin can RP as one....Main: (PvP & PvE)PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige
PvP:
Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer
PvP: (Specialty)
Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade
Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
PvE:
Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight
Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight
Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar
Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden
Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade
Leveling...
Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer
======
Passives of another race used. (RP)
*Breton
**Imperial
__________________________Backstories:_________________________
Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.
Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.
Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...
Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.
Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.
The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.
The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.
Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.
Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)
And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.
After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.
After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...
Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.
Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.
{time moves forward through the hour-glass}0 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »psychotrip wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong. In this era at any rate.Nemesis7884 wrote: »Akaviri are mostly normal - asian - looking humans... but there are demi human races tigers, monkeys, snakes and yetis there as well
Once things over there were that way. Until the akaviri humans got driven out, or eaten... those driven out were part of the mix that became imperials, those eaten... became snakemen poo, presumably.
Exactly, "akaviri" are four races - snakepeople Tsaesci, monkeypeople Tang Mo, tigerpeople Ka Po'tun, and "snow demons" Kamal (which noone is really sure what that actually means, so the developers could do whatever. From yeti to bearmen to reptiles that hibernate in the cold...)1. The term Akaviri is a general term that refers to anyone from Akavir.
Anyhow, more into on akaviri there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422285/new-player-race-possibilities/p1
IS confirmed.2. The Tsaesci being snake like beings is not confirmed anywhere...
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/why-tsaesci-may-or-may-not-have-legs-facts
...gives a good rundown of all the sources.
However, as that one points out... the sources about -how- snakey they might be are conflicting!
Of course, it could very well be that there are different flavors of snakeyness for the tsaesci, just like there are different flavors of cat-ness with the Khajiit... could be they have some "humanoid with legs and snakeskin" caste, and some "serpent-body" caste... (just like the D&D Yuan-ti!) right? Up to ZOS I reckon.
...until the akaviri invasion a decade before ESO, which may or may not have had some along.3. Even if there were actual Tsaesci snake people there were none left in Tamriel by the end of the first era.
...but by the Kamal.4. The 2nd era Akaviri invasion that was the impetus for the Ebonheart Pact was not lead by the Tsaesci.
But since noone can really tell from what little lore we have on that if they came all alone, or brought mercenary troops or slaves from the other races, well... ZOS can decide on whatever there.
There is info the potentates were. or at the very least... some of them.I said snake people, there is no actual evidence that the Akaviri Potentates were snake people.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mysterious-akavir
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-morning-star-book-1
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-first-seed-book-3
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/2920-evening-star-book-12
Doesn't say they -all- were snake people tho. And the akaviri who came to cyrodil to eventually help lay the groundwork of the reman empire -were- at least in a large part akaviri humans, so... lore is fuzzy enough that ZOS can once again decide whatever suits their needs!
Nothing is confirmed in TES lore. All lorebooks from the past were written by unreliable narrators.
They would embellish historical facts to make them seem more incredible (as story tellers do in real life too). Taking lorebooks at face value would be like taking Greek myths at face value in our world.
*Sigh* I said it before and I'll say it again:
To chalk it all up to, yet again, "bias and transcription errors" and say they're human almost feels like self-parody at this point. That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity as opposed to a tool to make the world feel deeper.
How many times have we been through this? How much longer will we defend it with this tired argument? An unreliable narrator is not a cure-all for bland, inconsistent worldbuilding.
The only reality in the TES universe is what appears in the games. The lorebooks are just mythical embellishments.
Even Kirkbride envisioned the Tsaesci as an Asian-inspired human race.
Just like the Ayleids were once described as "bird men" with feathers and beaks, likely because of the style of armour they wore, so too is the likely reason why the Tsaesci were called "snake men" in some stories.
Saying that you're disappointed with how things are portrayed in TES games is like saying you're disappointed that ancient Greece didn't look like it was described in the Iliad.
We're arguing two completely different things.
I'm not saying lore books are more valid than what we see in game. This has nothing to do with in-universe validity. I'm saying a group of writers chose a more mundane explaination when they had several to choose from.
This isn't mythology written thousands of years ago based on mythological pseudo-history. Why are we even comparing the two? This is a game series designed in an office building. Zenimax gets to pick which interpretations they want to use, and which are the result of the unreliable narrator. They chose the path of least resistence as they so ofren do. Nothing is forcing them to do this. They're not working off ancient, scattered legends with bronze-age technology. They're making creative choices, and we're allowed to have opinions on them.
I never once said the akaviri weren't an asian inspired race, so I don't know what you're even talking about. I was saying that they squandered one potential way of taking them beyond JUST that. My earlier post was just one of many theories on how the tsaesci could have worked, that would've tied all the seeming inconsistencies about them together. Is it perfect? No. Are there other theories just as interesting? Dozens. Would any of those be more interesting than yet another "transcription error"? I think so. Apparently you disagree. That's fine.
But I stand by my point: That excuse has become a crutch to justify mundanity.
What exactly is more mundane about it. One thing that confused me is that people act like a race being beastfolk makes them more interesting than if they were human. It doesn't it just makes them look strange. It's the culture and history of the races that make each race interesting. Nobody should like a race soley because it's not human. There are way to many people who like khajiits and argonians for no other reason than their appearance. Whether the tsacsei are humans or not doesn't matter because it doesn't make them any more or less interesting.
What exactly makes it more mundane? Look at it this way. Lets use the theory on tsaesci I used as an example earlier. On one hand we have:
-Parasitic vampire-snakes that bore into the skulls of human corpses, posessing their bodies and slowly mutating them into more snake-like appearances, with a culture inspired by east asian cultures but going beyond that by showing how culturally alien a race that functioned this way would have to be.
Or.
-Asian people.
I'm not saying you cant do anything with the latter concept. I'm saying Zenimax effectively threw out a ton of OTHER interesting stuff they could've done as well. Its wasted potential, and ultimately far more mundane and "normal".
Maybe you like more realistic fantasy? Nothing wrong with that. But I don't. I much prefer when fantasy feels fantastical and alien, while remaining emotionally relatable and internally consistent. I would have loved to see Zenimax / Bethesda "humanize" these strange beings, without literally just making them human. Instead we got neither. A shallow character that's ultimately just a bland human.
The description of the Tsaesci you wrote is simply your own headcanon, and is thus biased. A more truthful comparison (based on the things we know might be true about the Tsaesci and the Akaviri humans) would be:
- Possibly vampiric and/or immortal snake-people who enslaved the humans of Akavir, and
- A human race inspired by East Asian cultures with a "serpentine twist" that makes their culture heavily based on snakes and snake symbolism.
Your "theory" just makes me think of Mind Flayers, and while I do enjoy a good Illithid, I don't think creatures such as that would "fit" into TES Lore. Now, that isn't to say that snake-people don't exist: I'd say it's highly likely that the snake-like Tsaesci inhabit their part of Akavir together with the Akaviri humans (either peacefully or through enslavement, most likely the latter), which act as the bulk of their war forces and such (and also make up pretty much all of the Akaviri "immigrants" who came to Tamriel). Just because one exists doesn't mean that the other can't exist. It's also likely that the Akaviri humans outnumber the snake-like Tsaesci, since if they are immortal (or at least very long-lived), they wouldn't need to reproduce as much when compared to a race of men (like the difference between men and mer, think the Night of Tears).
There are very few actual records of snake-like Tsaesci (many of which have been linked into this thread already), and many more that refer to Akaviri humans, but it is still possible for both of them to coexist. However, snake-like Tsaesci on Tamriel are gone at this point, and it would make little sense as to why a "colony" of them would live in Elsweyr, especially since we know that Akaviri humans exist and have interbred with the Imperials of Cyrodiil, the descendants of which include the inhabitants of Hakoshae, for example.
That theory, as I said, is just one of many. My point was that Bethesda / Zenimax had a ton of potential that they squandered. Thats why I didnt just leave it at "vampire snakes" like you suggested I should have. I was simply showcasing one direction they could've taken, and how they've now limited themselves.
Also what are Ilithid from? Now you got me curious.
I do kind of understand your point, but - at least to me - the races of Akavir are not "mundane", as you've put it. Sure, they could be more fantastical, as your theory went, but it would feel a little "too much" at that point, and would almost sound like something from Kirkbride's drug-induced fanfictions. And, I was simply pointing out that the presence of Tsaesci on Tamriel in the 2nd Era is nearly impossible, so we won't unfortunately see any snake-people any time soon (unless the expansion idea mentioned above by @TheShadowScout comes to fruition, which I would love to see, and would take over a full-blown Akavir Expansion - I would leave that in the hands of Bethesda, or then leave it as a mystery).
As for the Illithids/Mind Flayers, they are from Dungeons & Dragons. They resemble humanoids with tentacled bodies and heads that live in hivemind colonies, feasting on the brains of intelligent beings to sustain themselves and their Psionic powers. The reason I thought of them was because of their parasitic way of "reproduction", where an adult Mind Flayer would lay eggs once or twice in their lifetime that hatched into tadpoles, which, after 10 years of maturation, would be implanted into humanoid hosts, where the matured tadpole would devour the victim's brain, taking its place and merging with the host to become a new Illithid. Pretty gross, but cool, fitting for the utterly alien and eldritch race that are the Mind Flayers.BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
...which obviously were created following a general set of ideas brought into being by a certain Howard Phillips Lovecraft, so... that shtick fits -perfectly- with the theme!...Pretty gross, but cool, fitting for the utterly alien and eldritch race that are the Mind Flayers.
1 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
...which obviously were created following a general set of ideas brought into being by a certain Howard Phillips Lovecraft, so... that shtick fits -perfectly- with the theme!...Pretty gross, but cool, fitting for the utterly alien and eldritch race that are the Mind Flayers.
I love me some Lovecraft (pun entirely unintended), which is why I think Mind Flayers are really cool as well. Pretty much all of the aberrations from D&D are awesome, since they're the most "Eldritch" creatures there are, with maybe a few Demons coming close.BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP0 -
vilio11✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »...we know from the lore about the empires attempted invasion into akavir in the third era (about 600 years in the future of ESO) that there -are- three islands between the continents of Tamriel and Akavir, Esroniet, Yneslea and Cathnoquey, which would obviously be in akaviri hands at this time in the second era, and almost certainly have been the staging areas for the akaviri invasion that gave borth to the Ebonheart Pact ten years before ESO...
Great but most of this island are inhabitit by tamrielic people. Not people from Akaviri
Edited by vilio11 on September 5, 2019 11:38PM0
