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Food change is unnecessary and pointless

  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Elong wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    If health recovery is not a stat players value is on their end, but 300 health recovery is quite useful in pvp fron what I hear.

    No it's not. You could remove health recovery from gold food completely, and no one would notice or care. We ran gold food because it had more max stats than Witch Mother's/Dubious. With that gap between those foods and drinks closed most people won't find it worth the price.

    I think you might have quite a few players disagreeing with that. Especially with the race against time change you might have less players being vampire and thus getting more out of the health recovery. It is free health every 2 seconds after all that isnt affected by battle spirit. Whether you value it or not, the stat health recovery is there and has to be factored into the balancing done to these foods.

    I'm sorry but if you think 300 health recovery is a big deal in pvp then you are out of touch with who you are representing.

    Lol, that's why Alessian set became so popular after rebalance at U21.
    https://eu.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/SearchResult?ItemID=2711&SearchType=Sell&ItemNamePattern=Alessian+Cuirass&ItemTraitID=9

    You may then tell then that 129 stam/mag recovery means nothing in PVP. Come on, it's only ~1000 more stamina or magicka in 10 seconds, trash, nothing :D

    It's incorrect to compare stam recovery and health recovery directly. It'd only be correct if we didn't have healing abilities - which effectively convert stamina/magicka into health with far more efficiency. Rapid Regen can give you 15-20 points of health per every point of magicka you spend, and at the rate that corresponds to ~3.2k health recovery tooltip (and I didn't even count critical healing ticks here - they're certainly going to be there). Feel the difference.
    Ok, I don't have PVP healer so I don't know tooltip on mutagen in no-CP PVP. But my vigor tooltip is ~18k with major mending active. Now let's add bonus for average crit +20% on non-crit build, and fact that healing is halved we'll have ~2-2.5k healing per second for 3160 stamina for 5 seconds. Conversion rate is 1 to 5 at best case, i.e. with major mending and healing received bonuses.
    And it takes slot, and requires action to be casted, so you are not cc'd and you will also miss one offensive GCD to cast it. 350 health recovery with modifiers ends up in 500 recovery, which means 250 per second without any additional expenses, simply from golden food active. So it's ~10% of buffed vigor for free. Vigor cost per second is ~625, which is equivalent of 1250 stamina recovery.
    Conclusion 350 health recovery converts to at least 125 stamina recovery, doesn't require slot, works always no matter what. Now if you are in heavy armor vigor will cost more and heal less. If you don't have major mending healing will be less etc..
    ^Tl;DR - at the smallest possible case 350 base health recovery converts to 1 set bonus.

    So golden food even after nerf will be:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery and 1 set bonus for health recovery =10. Now on live 10.5+.
    DCT/Witchbrew:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery = 9. Now on live 9.5+
    Now blue food: 5 set bonuses for resource, 4.5 set bonuses for health and in PVE gives you more health then you actually need especially on rase with HP bonus, or if you use Skoria etc... anyway it's 9.5 set bonuses and in PVE more like 9.

    So ZOS evens out "normal" food, and gold food still have nice bonus to health recovery in VMA, BG, small-scale PVP etc. If you run with pocket healer who can't kill anybody, then yes it's rather pointless to run gold food you may save your money.

    edit: adjusted numbers

    Selling it short there. I have seen Vigor tooltips of more than 30k (in Cyro with Mending active), and that's not even the most efficient resource conversion tool. Rally can have total tooltip of 24k for 2796 stamina, pushes it to ~9 health/stamina ratio from your 5 (so equivalent health regen drops to ~70). If you're in a group, it's even more hairy because your Vigor will give healing to everyone else as well, resulting in more efficient conversion; in a group you will also likely have healer, and RR (also an AoE heal) will have ~27k tooltip for less than 1.5k magicka. And keep in mind that even on non-crit build, you won't have less than 30% crit in any normal scenario.

    I also don't see a point in bringing the necessity of using a GCD and skill slot. In a combat encounter where you're counting GCDs, you sure will not find 0.25k health gain per second any kind of useful, unlike 2.5k from an active HoT. I mean, since you do want to bring actual combat (in addition to pure efficiency of conversion), then you have to take that into consideration - health recovery is a HoT ticking at least 10 times weaker than Vigor, and it doesn't help you that it also ticks when you're riding around Cyrodiil for an hour. It will do nothing when you're under pressure.

    Rally need to be "gathered" for long to be that high. Fact that somebody min-maxed 30k vigor tooltip means nothing, there are tons of way to cheese that. We may min-max health recovery to the extreme too, i'm talking about real tooltip in balanced build.
    And even in PVE where healing is not halved, this extra recovery is noticeable if you don't have healer spamming healing rotation in your direction. I use only DCT and ATB, and never blue food even on sustain races. On live DCT is superior to blue food, and ATB superior to DCT. With this nerf DCT will be comparable to blue food and ATB will be slightly better. And those ticks means a lot. Over 10 seconds it's +3k health. How many time you survived on 3k HP both in PVP and PVE? Countless times.
    To summarize - if you are not a healer and need to heal yourself, health recovery matters. It doesn't replace healing when healing burst is needed, it allows to use healing slightly less and so improves overall sustain.

    Normal, viable (and published during last few months if I remember correctly) PvP build. You very well know that Vigor scales off the same stats as regular damaging abilities. Higher healing ticks, higher damage ticks. And what do min-maxed health recovery builds do to increase recovery tooltip? Nope, not build up weapon damage and max stat. They drop combat stats for recovery (including the sacrifice of offensive monster set for Troll King). And even so you need an external source of healing to get Troll King going. Difference. Outside of those niche builds, health recovery is moot.

    I'm not sure how do you measure "noticeable" and "means a lot" - sounds like placebo effect to me. You use Vigor because you need 2.5k health next second instead of 3k health in ten seconds when you're dead on the ground. And that's not to mention that while you're at 3k health, your're remaining in execute range, susceptible to Impale, Tornado, bloodthirsty jewelry and what have you. There are no use cases for health recovery. You need your health back right after you lost it, not after a minute, because in no situation you can guarantee you won't get a damage spike inside that minute. So you go and overheal right away, and for that - you guessed right - you need to invest into stamina/magicka recovery instead.

    No, health recovery does not matter. At all.

    Stats required for 30k vigor tooltip with major mending and 40 CP to blessed:
    vinezyvt99hn.jpg

    It's achievable in something like 7th legion+bone pirate+kena, all possible procs active, major/minor brutality, medium armor, orc, weapon mundus, 2-3 infused WD jewelry, DK or warden, 3-5 seconds of 30k vigor after spending 4k resource for major mending activation - on DK and usage of grove on warden. Health and resists will be low, so healer support recommended.

    So my points stands - if you are travelling without personal healer, health recovery matters. Anyway, everyone has right for their opinion so thanks for the insight, but I'll stick to gold food and will continue to use it in PVP/VMA even after nerf.


  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Elong wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    If health recovery is not a stat players value is on their end, but 300 health recovery is quite useful in pvp fron what I hear.

    No it's not. You could remove health recovery from gold food completely, and no one would notice or care. We ran gold food because it had more max stats than Witch Mother's/Dubious. With that gap between those foods and drinks closed most people won't find it worth the price.

    I think you might have quite a few players disagreeing with that. Especially with the race against time change you might have less players being vampire and thus getting more out of the health recovery. It is free health every 2 seconds after all that isnt affected by battle spirit. Whether you value it or not, the stat health recovery is there and has to be factored into the balancing done to these foods.

    I'm sorry but if you think 300 health recovery is a big deal in pvp then you are out of touch with who you are representing.

    Lol, that's why Alessian set became so popular after rebalance at U21.
    https://eu.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/SearchResult?ItemID=2711&SearchType=Sell&ItemNamePattern=Alessian+Cuirass&ItemTraitID=9

    You may then tell then that 129 stam/mag recovery means nothing in PVP. Come on, it's only ~1000 more stamina or magicka in 10 seconds, trash, nothing :D

    It's incorrect to compare stam recovery and health recovery directly. It'd only be correct if we didn't have healing abilities - which effectively convert stamina/magicka into health with far more efficiency. Rapid Regen can give you 15-20 points of health per every point of magicka you spend, and at the rate that corresponds to ~3.2k health recovery tooltip (and I didn't even count critical healing ticks here - they're certainly going to be there). Feel the difference.
    Ok, I don't have PVP healer so I don't know tooltip on mutagen in no-CP PVP. But my vigor tooltip is ~18k with major mending active. Now let's add bonus for average crit +20% on non-crit build, and fact that healing is halved we'll have ~2-2.5k healing per second for 3160 stamina for 5 seconds. Conversion rate is 1 to 5 at best case, i.e. with major mending and healing received bonuses.
    And it takes slot, and requires action to be casted, so you are not cc'd and you will also miss one offensive GCD to cast it. 350 health recovery with modifiers ends up in 500 recovery, which means 250 per second without any additional expenses, simply from golden food active. So it's ~10% of buffed vigor for free. Vigor cost per second is ~625, which is equivalent of 1250 stamina recovery.
    Conclusion 350 health recovery converts to at least 125 stamina recovery, doesn't require slot, works always no matter what. Now if you are in heavy armor vigor will cost more and heal less. If you don't have major mending healing will be less etc..
    ^Tl;DR - at the smallest possible case 350 base health recovery converts to 1 set bonus.

    So golden food even after nerf will be:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery and 1 set bonus for health recovery =10. Now on live 10.5+.
    DCT/Witchbrew:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery = 9. Now on live 9.5+
    Now blue food: 5 set bonuses for resource, 4.5 set bonuses for health and in PVE gives you more health then you actually need especially on rase with HP bonus, or if you use Skoria etc... anyway it's 9.5 set bonuses and in PVE more like 9.

    So ZOS evens out "normal" food, and gold food still have nice bonus to health recovery in VMA, BG, small-scale PVP etc. If you run with pocket healer who can't kill anybody, then yes it's rather pointless to run gold food you may save your money.

    edit: adjusted numbers

    So I have 10.5 food that costs 3k per piece (perfect roe PC EU ~12K) and blue food that costs 30g per piece (some trash ingredients) with 9.5? Guess what will be new meta and the only reasonable choice?
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.

    Mael Nightshadow - that's all you need to know.
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    It's time to kill the game. Too much nerfs.

    Excuse you.
    CP1,200+ Master Explorer - AvA Praetorian - Console Peasant
  • CurvedSwords123
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    mcagatayg wrote: »
    Why the change in purple and gold food? It's already expensive to use gold food and now in next patch gold food is gonna be as good as current purple? I don't understand the change and i find it unnecessary. Already most of the players are not using gold food due to money issues, and now its nerfed to purple level. I guess casual players don't deserve good food.

    Agreed. If u'r gonna nerf Artaeum, atleast be decent enough to nerf it's COST in tandem ZoS.
  • DoonerSeraph
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    @Masel ,

    While I understand that there are a need to balance stat density on food, I think the main issue people are feeling is that gold food is not justifying the costs anymore compared to blue food.

    You said there was feedback saying that these foods were too stat dense, and while that may be true, if the problem is with the health regen stacked with Orc in PvP for example, maybe it's the time to tackle the issue of health regen on PvP? Like adding a health regen cut of 50% to battle spirit to put it on line with healing?

    I really don't believe that nerfing the food is a good solution if the excessive health regen is the problem, I also think that while this stat must be factored in, we must be aware that this stat is way more important on PvP than PvE so it's less valued for DPS and healer players on PvE (I don't believe many PvE tanks use those), so that should be accounted for.

    Blue, purple and gold food had their places on PvE, Blue for sustain races (breton, redguard, bosmer), and Purple/Gold for "stat" races (Altmer, Dunmer, Orc), and gold as a slightly better and much expensive version of purple. Now it looks everyone will either change a gliph and adapt to only use blue food since purple and gold are not justifiable anymore, can you please take a look at this? Thanks!
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Elong wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    If health recovery is not a stat players value is on their end, but 300 health recovery is quite useful in pvp fron what I hear.

    No it's not. You could remove health recovery from gold food completely, and no one would notice or care. We ran gold food because it had more max stats than Witch Mother's/Dubious. With that gap between those foods and drinks closed most people won't find it worth the price.

    I think you might have quite a few players disagreeing with that. Especially with the race against time change you might have less players being vampire and thus getting more out of the health recovery. It is free health every 2 seconds after all that isnt affected by battle spirit. Whether you value it or not, the stat health recovery is there and has to be factored into the balancing done to these foods.

    I'm sorry but if you think 300 health recovery is a big deal in pvp then you are out of touch with who you are representing.

    Lol, that's why Alessian set became so popular after rebalance at U21.
    https://eu.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/SearchResult?ItemID=2711&SearchType=Sell&ItemNamePattern=Alessian+Cuirass&ItemTraitID=9

    You may then tell then that 129 stam/mag recovery means nothing in PVP. Come on, it's only ~1000 more stamina or magicka in 10 seconds, trash, nothing :D

    It's incorrect to compare stam recovery and health recovery directly. It'd only be correct if we didn't have healing abilities - which effectively convert stamina/magicka into health with far more efficiency. Rapid Regen can give you 15-20 points of health per every point of magicka you spend, and at the rate that corresponds to ~3.2k health recovery tooltip (and I didn't even count critical healing ticks here - they're certainly going to be there). Feel the difference.
    Ok, I don't have PVP healer so I don't know tooltip on mutagen in no-CP PVP. But my vigor tooltip is ~18k with major mending active. Now let's add bonus for average crit +20% on non-crit build, and fact that healing is halved we'll have ~2-2.5k healing per second for 3160 stamina for 5 seconds. Conversion rate is 1 to 5 at best case, i.e. with major mending and healing received bonuses.
    And it takes slot, and requires action to be casted, so you are not cc'd and you will also miss one offensive GCD to cast it. 350 health recovery with modifiers ends up in 500 recovery, which means 250 per second without any additional expenses, simply from golden food active. So it's ~10% of buffed vigor for free. Vigor cost per second is ~625, which is equivalent of 1250 stamina recovery.
    Conclusion 350 health recovery converts to at least 125 stamina recovery, doesn't require slot, works always no matter what. Now if you are in heavy armor vigor will cost more and heal less. If you don't have major mending healing will be less etc..
    ^Tl;DR - at the smallest possible case 350 base health recovery converts to 1 set bonus.

    So golden food even after nerf will be:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery and 1 set bonus for health recovery =10. Now on live 10.5+.
    DCT/Witchbrew:
    3 set bonuses for resource, 3 set bonuses for health, 3 set bonuses for resource recovery = 9. Now on live 9.5+
    Now blue food: 5 set bonuses for resource, 4.5 set bonuses for health and in PVE gives you more health then you actually need especially on rase with HP bonus, or if you use Skoria etc... anyway it's 9.5 set bonuses and in PVE more like 9.

    So ZOS evens out "normal" food, and gold food still have nice bonus to health recovery in VMA, BG, small-scale PVP etc. If you run with pocket healer who can't kill anybody, then yes it's rather pointless to run gold food you may save your money.

    edit: adjusted numbers

    Selling it short there. I have seen Vigor tooltips of more than 30k (in Cyro with Mending active), and that's not even the most efficient resource conversion tool. Rally can have total tooltip of 24k for 2796 stamina, pushes it to ~9 health/stamina ratio from your 5 (so equivalent health regen drops to ~70). If you're in a group, it's even more hairy because your Vigor will give healing to everyone else as well, resulting in more efficient conversion; in a group you will also likely have healer, and RR (also an AoE heal) will have ~27k tooltip for less than 1.5k magicka. And keep in mind that even on non-crit build, you won't have less than 30% crit in any normal scenario.

    I also don't see a point in bringing the necessity of using a GCD and skill slot. In a combat encounter where you're counting GCDs, you sure will not find 0.25k health gain per second any kind of useful, unlike 2.5k from an active HoT. I mean, since you do want to bring actual combat (in addition to pure efficiency of conversion), then you have to take that into consideration - health recovery is a HoT ticking at least 10 times weaker than Vigor, and it doesn't help you that it also ticks when you're riding around Cyrodiil for an hour. It will do nothing when you're under pressure.

    Rally need to be "gathered" for long to be that high. Fact that somebody min-maxed 30k vigor tooltip means nothing, there are tons of way to cheese that. We may min-max health recovery to the extreme too, i'm talking about real tooltip in balanced build.
    And even in PVE where healing is not halved, this extra recovery is noticeable if you don't have healer spamming healing rotation in your direction. I use only DCT and ATB, and never blue food even on sustain races. On live DCT is superior to blue food, and ATB superior to DCT. With this nerf DCT will be comparable to blue food and ATB will be slightly better. And those ticks means a lot. Over 10 seconds it's +3k health. How many time you survived on 3k HP both in PVP and PVE? Countless times.
    To summarize - if you are not a healer and need to heal yourself, health recovery matters. It doesn't replace healing when healing burst is needed, it allows to use healing slightly less and so improves overall sustain.

    Normal, viable (and published during last few months if I remember correctly) PvP build. You very well know that Vigor scales off the same stats as regular damaging abilities. Higher healing ticks, higher damage ticks. And what do min-maxed health recovery builds do to increase recovery tooltip? Nope, not build up weapon damage and max stat. They drop combat stats for recovery (including the sacrifice of offensive monster set for Troll King). And even so you need an external source of healing to get Troll King going. Difference. Outside of those niche builds, health recovery is moot.

    I'm not sure how do you measure "noticeable" and "means a lot" - sounds like placebo effect to me. You use Vigor because you need 2.5k health next second instead of 3k health in ten seconds when you're dead on the ground. And that's not to mention that while you're at 3k health, your're remaining in execute range, susceptible to Impale, Tornado, bloodthirsty jewelry and what have you. There are no use cases for health recovery. You need your health back right after you lost it, not after a minute, because in no situation you can guarantee you won't get a damage spike inside that minute. So you go and overheal right away, and for that - you guessed right - you need to invest into stamina/magicka recovery instead.

    No, health recovery does not matter. At all.

    Stats required for 30k vigor tooltip with major mending and 40 CP to blessed:
    vinezyvt99hn.jpg

    It's achievable in something like 7th legion+bone pirate+kena, all possible procs active, major/minor brutality, medium armor, orc, weapon mundus, 2-3 infused WD jewelry, DK or warden, 3-5 seconds of 30k vigor after spending 4k resource for major mending activation - on DK and usage of grove on warden. Health and resists will be low, so healer support recommended.

    So my points stands - if you are travelling without personal healer, health recovery matters. Anyway, everyone has right for their opinion so thanks for the insight, but I'll stick to gold food and will continue to use it in PVP/VMA even after nerf.


    ft47z43s98sp.png

    wxgvz81o5tbt.png

    Perfectly viable Wrathstone DK build (and not mine either), and no Kena. Bone Pirate, Powerful Assault (I think Vigor tooltip is with the proc, at ~6.2k WD), Blood Spawn. I'm also not sure what's wrong with the build you're quoting, because, again, Vigor scales off the same stats as damage (and damage is the thing you're supposed to be doing, and procs are supposed to be active at the time you need healing). Perfectly viable other stats too, good recovery, good resistances, good health and resource pools. (And you don't only get Mending for activating Igneous / Fragmented, you also get a shield). I think it just proves the point.

    Sure, opinion is opinion, but I think that, using gold food, you'll feel way more difference due to larger stats (thanks to the nerf you'll likely have to run more health in enchantments anyway) than due to health recovery bonus. And cost in terms of gold is two orders of magnitude higher.
  • Gray_Raven
    Gray_Raven
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    My Bosmer Stamblade(Dubious Camoran) PVE. Great dps, well enough versed to not die is most fights. Still yet, I get flack for my health being this low in vtrials/dungeons. All undaunted passives, heavy monster pieces, all big body(Gold+Relequen/Advancing Yokeda) pieces are infused just to get decent RSS pools. Meanwhile my magdk/magblade/etc can run all divines pieces with witchmother's and have 18k plus health before group buffs. I came to terms with how things are, but this is defintely gonna make things worse for me. sghcp20w05li.jpg

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