race against time (psijic skill) best skill in the game?

hesobad

Wing wrote: »

major expedition 4s
snare and immobilize immunity 4s
minor force 12s

cheap, spammable

is this going to be obligatory on everyone's bar in pvp now? this is every mobility problem in the game solved by one skill, available to all classes.

Absolutely.. Every class in the gave should run this ability now

HankTwo

StarOfElyon wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very concerned about this skill. Reason being it will be one of the best mobility skills in the game, but at the same time it will be available to anyone, no matter the class, weapons, or armor type used. This removes any room for the devs to use mobility as a class balancing factor.

After the reveal of the necromancer I thought that class looks super strong and might be op, but the lack of mobility seemed like one way it could still be balanced. Now that possibility is gone. In the past mag DK was the class with the worst overall mobility. To improve that they introduced a 2 second snare and immobilization immunity to wings. Now all classes get a simply better mobility skill.

So yeah, imo its the complete wrong way to tackle the snare and root problem. They should have added snare removal (maybe even short immunity) to classes that need them specifically and reduced the movement speed reduction of the most oppressive snares. Root immunity was also a good change. But I can't say that I'm looking forward to the new race against time, it will be a non class skill used by almost anybody. Thats not a good thing, imo.

I think "by almost anybody" is overexaggerating. Why would person running in 24 man pug group use it? Why would guy in ballgroup use it when there are already purgebots there? Proper movement and los is most important thing for solo/smallscale. Why would u kill idea of giving such thing for mag and eventually stam ppl who prefer this kind of gameplay? They buffed the charge snares on top of it, so ppl are gonna be snared to hell anyway.

I don't think any single skill should give major expedition and a snare + root immunity without any downsides. Race against time will give minor force, concentrated barrier shield and spell orb proc damage on top of that. Just seems overloaded to me. Who will use mistform when this change goes live? Who will use shuffle? I bet that even many 2h stam players will drop forward momentum for rally + race against time.

Furthermore, roots overall will become much less useful with this change. I know people like you want big mobility buffs and run around resource towers all day, but in BGs its already super annoying when facing someone who has major expedition and can't be rooted or snared (especially in places like up the portals in arcane university). New race against time will give all of this and more in one package.

As I said, some classes should have gotten more tools to counter control playstyle but I simply disagree that such a powerful mobility tool should be available to any build (class, armor, weapon and set combination) while at the same time being behind a paywall (granted, doesn't affect me and most other players but I still dislike the fact).

Since I don't have any roots or hard CC in my class, and I have been on the receiving end of these things for so long, I just can't sympathize.

I know all 3 sides, since I play stamina DK with snare/root immunity, magden control build with master's ice staff and magplar without any hard ccs (total dark doesn't count).

Personally I think an overall snare nerf (like they did to wall of frost and sleet storm) + a root cooldown/passive immunity (they introduced a 3 second immunity in the PTS) + maybe some carefully implemented class specific counters would be the way to go.

Imo, perma rooting and huge snares (>50%) shouldn't be in the game, but that doesn't mean that all builds should have access to a skill that gives immunity against all roots and snares in general (+ major expedition on top).

Rikumaru

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very concerned about this skill. Reason being it will be one of the best mobility skills in the game, but at the same time it will be available to anyone, no matter the class, weapons, or armor type used. This removes any room for the devs to use mobility as a class balancing factor.

After the reveal of the necromancer I thought that class looks super strong and might be op, but the lack of mobility seemed like one way it could still be balanced. Now that possibility is gone. In the past mag DK was the class with the worst overall mobility. To improve that they introduced a 2 second snare and immobilization immunity to wings. Now all classes get a simply better mobility skill.

So yeah, imo its the complete wrong way to tackle the snare and root problem. They should have added snare removal (maybe even short immunity) to classes that need them specifically and reduced the movement speed reduction of the most oppressive snares. Root immunity was also a good change. But I can't say that I'm looking forward to the new race against time, it will be a non class skill used by almost anybody. Thats not a good thing, imo.

I think "by almost anybody" is overexaggerating. Why would person running in 24 man pug group use it? Why would guy in ballgroup use it when there are already purgebots there? Proper movement and los is most important thing for solo/smallscale. Why would u kill idea of giving such thing for mag and eventually stam ppl who prefer this kind of gameplay? They buffed the charge snares on top of it, so ppl are gonna be snared to hell anyway.

I don't think any single skill should give major expedition and a snare + root immunity without any downsides. Race against time will give minor force, concentrated barrier shield and spell orb proc damage on top of that. Just seems overloaded to me. Who will use mistform when this change goes live? Who will use shuffle? I bet that even many 2h stam players will drop forward momentum for rally + race against time.

Furthermore, roots overall will become much less useful with this change. I know people like you want big mobility buffs and run around resource towers all day, but in BGs its already super annoying when facing someone who has major expedition and can't be rooted or snared (especially in places like up the portals in arcane university). New race against time will give all of this and more in one package.

As I said, some classes should have gotten more tools to counter control playstyle but I simply disagree that such a powerful mobility tool should be available to any build (class, armor, weapon and set combination) while at the same time being behind a paywall (granted, doesn't affect me and most other players but I still dislike the fact).

Stam players who drop FM for rally + race against time is build diversity. Not everyone will do it, only those who can afford to drop 1 bar slot will do it. What's wrong with diversity?

Second of all, yeah you bet that magicka players will be running this (mag sorc prob won't though). What's wrong with that? If you wanna pull that card what about all stam players basically being forced to run rally / FM? Should rally / FM get nerfed because 99% of stam players are running it? No. No it should not. This skill seems focused towards solo / small scale players and it's gonna be great to use.

Also talking about the classes which don't have any snare immunity on live at the moment, guess which classes are weakest in solo open world? Yeah.

Toc de Malsvi

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think this is a case of Race Against Time seems good because Shuffle is inadequate and foward momentum is overnerfed.

Sort of, Shuffle is restricted to Medium, Forward Momentum is restricted to 2H, Wings are restricted to DK.

RAT is not restricted, any class any weapon set, and gives two Buffs which everyone in PVP wants together. Major Expedition and Snare/Immobilize immunity. It also gives several nice small perks in the absorb, Minor Force, and orb procs.

Yiko

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Totally screws up the identity of med armor builds with a bow, there's no reason to play such a build now. What they said is that they nerf Legion and Fury but instead they can now play with Rally and use this skill as anti snare tool and have major exp on demand. Makes so much sense that brawlers and tanks can be as fast as someone who actively builds around mobility. I thought speed pots were nerfed for that reason...

Exactly my thoughts on this. Really don't understand what direction ZOS intends to go with the game considering previous snare/root nerfs, previous mobility nerfs, these current snare/root nerfs, gap closer snare buffs, ubiquitous major expedition access w/ snare/root removal, widespread major defile removal, befoul CP decrease, etc. etc. I'm definitely not looking forward to a stronger Tank meta.
The loss of identity on medium armor and bow builds is just sad coupled with NB changes. I thought NBs would be nerfed while perhaps medium armor armor would be buffed to compensate, but I did not expect this absurdity.

Noobslayer3255

Rikumaru wrote: »

Second of all, yeah you bet that magicka players will be running this (mag sorc prob won't though). What's wrong with that? If you wanna pull that card what about all stam players basically being forced to run rally / FM? Should rally / FM get nerfed because 99% of stam players are running it? No. No it should not. This skill seems focused towards solo / small scale players and it's gonna be great to use.

You're comparing an ability that requires you to use a certain weapon to be able to use it to an ability any class using any weapon wearing any weight of armor can use. They aren't comparable.


But just on a fundamental level you're right, "everyone uses it so it should be nerfed" is a foolish argument to make.


In the case of FM/shuffle, every stam player uses one of them because you simply need a snare cleanse, not because the abilities are overperforming or providing too many buffs. Everyone will use race against time for the same reason: you need a snare cleanse, but everyone will also run RAT over other forms of snare cleanse (namely, stamina classes will drop the two stamina snare cleanses in favor of the vastly superior magicka cleanse) because it is overloaded.


So,

An ability (or type of ability, ie snare cleanse) that everyone uses because of game mechanics is not inherently overpowered.

An ability that everyone uses because of game mechanics that is drastically superior to other abilities used to counter the same game mechanics is overpowered.

WillhelmBlack

All the Magblades still crying... but thanks for getting DK reflective scales nerfed.

Bergzorn

If the gap closer snare (back at 60%) is as bad as it was before it got reduced, we need a skill like this. And an additional skill slot to put it in.

Xvorg

Wing wrote: »

major expedition 4s
snare and immobilize immunity 4s
minor force 12s

cheap, spammable

is this going to be obligatory on everyone's bar in pvp now? this is every mobility problem in the game solved by one skill, available to all classes.

Channeled acceleration is better. 1.3 secs major protection while channeling and all those buffs tripled

Pevey

Minno wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

major expedition 4s
snare and immobilize immunity 4s
minor force 12s

cheap, spammable

is this going to be obligatory on everyone's bar in pvp now? this is every mobility problem in the game solved by one skill, available to all classes.

mistform 2.0.

And that is a good thing.

Totally agree, it removes the absolute necessity of being a vamp to play mag in pvp.

Steelshiv

This is great for magsorc d/t not having class snare immunity. I suspect it will have a cost increase though.

DeadlyRecluse

Xvorg wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

major expedition 4s
snare and immobilize immunity 4s
minor force 12s

cheap, spammable

is this going to be obligatory on everyone's bar in pvp now? this is every mobility problem in the game solved by one skill, available to all classes.

Channeled acceleration is better. 1.3 secs major protection while channeling and all those buffs tripled

Channeled acceleration doesn't have the buff people are most excited about...

IronWooshu

Greatest skill ever.. Thank you ZOS

BlackMadara

No matter what anybody says, RAT is the most powerful snare immunity in this form. It makes all others seem completely inferior. Pairing major expo and snare immunity, alongside minor force, is too much imo.

Alucardo

God damn it. And just when I thought I would never bother grinding psijic again

Rikumaru

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Second of all, yeah you bet that magicka players will be running this (mag sorc prob won't though). What's wrong with that? If you wanna pull that card what about all stam players basically being forced to run rally / FM? Should rally / FM get nerfed because 99% of stam players are running it? No. No it should not. This skill seems focused towards solo / small scale players and it's gonna be great to use.

You're comparing an ability that requires you to use a certain weapon to be able to use it to an ability any class using any weapon wearing any weight of armor can use. They aren't comparable.


But just on a fundamental level you're right, "everyone uses it so it should be nerfed" is a foolish argument to make.


In the case of FM/shuffle, every stam player uses one of them because you simply need a snare cleanse, not because the abilities are overperforming or providing too many buffs. Everyone will use race against time for the same reason: you need a snare cleanse, but everyone will also run RAT over other forms of snare cleanse (namely, stamina classes will drop the two stamina snare cleanses in favor of the vastly superior magicka cleanse) because it is overloaded.


So,

An ability (or type of ability, ie snare cleanse) that everyone uses because of game mechanics is not inherently overpowered.

An ability that everyone uses because of game mechanics that is drastically superior to other abilities used to counter the same game mechanics is overpowered.

People aren't gonna drop momentum off their bar, it's too strong not to. You are correct in that some people will run rally and race against time but those people are giving up an entire bar slot to do this. I would say a good portion of stam players cannot give up a bar slot on their builds without giving up something substantial.For those players running FM is probably still a better idea. This just opens up new avenues for stam builds which is great. As for shuffle, it's literally a garbage skill.

As for magicka builds, you betcha every magicka build (other than magicka sorc) will be running this, it's been years overdue for magicka to get snare immunity outside of mist form.

It's gonna be real sad come a few patch notes when they nerf this skill into the ground because of some perma snaring zergers who complain they can't lock down some solo / small scale players anymore. The only nerf which this skill could use would be a small cost increase.

Chelo

Wing wrote: »

major expedition 4s
snare and immobilize immunity 4s
minor force 12s

cheap, spammable

is this going to be obligatory on everyone's bar in pvp now? this is every mobility problem in the game solved by one skill, available to all classes.

I thought exactly the same, this is basically an obligatory skill for Magicka PvP builds now...

Chelo

Zophix wrote: »

Maybe race against time should not get minor force or major expedition and only the snare immunity.

It shouldn't get Minor Force. Channeled Acceleration should be the offensive morph, and Race Against Time should be defensive.

Channeled Acceleration should be Minor Force and Major Expedition, Race Against Time should be Snare Immunity and Major Expedition.

Mayrael

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Totally screws up the identity of med armor builds with a bow, there's no reason to play such a build now. What they said is that they nerf Legion and Fury but instead they can now play with Rally and use this skill as anti snare tool and have major exp on demand. Makes so much sense that brawlers and tanks can be as fast as someone who actively builds around mobility. I thought speed pots were nerfed for that reason...

Translation - do not buff others, it's not fair that they will be able to do the same what only we could.

Magicka builds was suffering because of lacking that kind of a skill. Finally it had been balanced.

Mayrael

Also this.
Everyone: snares are problem! We need to nerf them.
Magicka gets snare immunity just like stamina had long ago.
Stamina players: we are loosing identity! Do not do this. What we meant was BUFF US not them.

OwnerOfSuccuby

All if fine. I like more old version becouse of infinity running. But now the same like wings or momentum does so i can remove them and put this.
Do not think that it is op. You have only 10 slots remember?
If you protect against something you lose something. There can be stun , charge, caltrops or anyhard strike skill remember? Or wings, damage shield, pet, and etc.

You are very limited in slots, do not see any problem at all. It do not give you infinit running like it does earlier. So i do not think that it is so good.

Hotdog_23

Alucardo wrote: »

God damn it. And just when I thought I would never bother grinding psijic again

lol, that was my first thought when I read about this!

psychotic13

Best skill in the game is a bit of an exaggeration.

In comparison to FM, you have a HoT instead of a minor buff, and your major buff lasts substantially longer?

Wings immunity should be brought up to 4 seconds to be on par.

DisgracefulMind

HankTwo wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very concerned about this skill. Reason being it will be one of the best mobility skills in the game, but at the same time it will be available to anyone, no matter the class, weapons, or armor type used. This removes any room for the devs to use mobility as a class balancing factor.

After the reveal of the necromancer I thought that class looks super strong and might be op, but the lack of mobility seemed like one way it could still be balanced. Now that possibility is gone. In the past mag DK was the class with the worst overall mobility. To improve that they introduced a 2 second snare and immobilization immunity to wings. Now all classes get a simply better mobility skill.

So yeah, imo its the complete wrong way to tackle the snare and root problem. They should have added snare removal (maybe even short immunity) to classes that need them specifically and reduced the movement speed reduction of the most oppressive snares. Root immunity was also a good change. But I can't say that I'm looking forward to the new race against time, it will be a non class skill used by almost anybody. Thats not a good thing, imo.

I think "by almost anybody" is overexaggerating. Why would person running in 24 man pug group use it? Why would guy in ballgroup use it when there are already purgebots there? Proper movement and los is most important thing for solo/smallscale. Why would u kill idea of giving such thing for mag and eventually stam ppl who prefer this kind of gameplay? They buffed the charge snares on top of it, so ppl are gonna be snared to hell anyway.

I don't think any single skill should give major expedition and a snare + root immunity without any downsides. Race against time will give minor force, concentrated barrier shield and spell orb proc damage on top of that. Just seems overloaded to me. Who will use mistform when this change goes live? Who will use shuffle? I bet that even many 2h stam players will drop forward momentum for rally + race against time.

Furthermore, roots overall will become much less useful with this change. I know people like you want big mobility buffs and run around resource towers all day, but in BGs its already super annoying when facing someone who has major expedition and can't be rooted or snared (especially in places like up the portals in arcane university). New race against time will give all of this and more in one package.

As I said, some classes should have gotten more tools to counter control playstyle but I simply disagree that such a powerful mobility tool should be available to any build (class, armor, weapon and set combination) while at the same time being behind a paywall (granted, doesn't affect me and most other players but I still dislike the fact).

Since I don't have any roots or hard CC in my class, and I have been on the receiving end of these things for so long, I just can't sympathize.

I know all 3 sides, since I play stamina DK with snare/root immunity, magden control build with master's ice staff and magplar without any hard ccs (total dark doesn't count).

Personally I think an overall snare nerf (like they did to wall of frost and sleet storm) + a root cooldown/passive immunity (they introduced a 3 second immunity in the PTS) + maybe some carefully implemented class specific counters would be the way to go.

Imo, perma rooting and huge snares (>50%) shouldn't be in the game, but that doesn't mean that all builds should have access to a skill that gives immunity against all roots and snares in general (+ major expedition on top).

Why not though? What is the valid reasoning behind forcing some players and builds to be tortured by snares and roots and some not? What is the reason in forcing some specs to be vampires, therefore forcing them take more damage just to handle what the game has turned into? I haven't seen any valid reasoning for making players miserable in the snare/root age.

Tommy_The_Gun

Idk if this is bad. I just have some concerns. You see we have classes that rely on mobilty in order to survive. On the other hand we have classes that rely on beeing tanky af in oreder to survive. Giving acces to such a mobilty to all classes can be potenially game breaking.

Mayrael

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Idk if this is bad. I just have some concerns. You see we have classes that rely on mobilty in order to survive. On the other hand we have classes that rely on beeing tanky af in oreder to survive. Giving acces to such a mobilty to all classes can be potenially game breaking.

Just like we don't have it already. Any stamina toon can slot forward momentum and use vigor for heals. On tanky character lingering health pot, FM and vigor is more than enough to not get killed especially when you can't be rooted. You can also use it with shuffle. Both skills are heavily stamina restricted. Why magicka builds especially the ones in Light Armor should be punished when their stamina pool is so limited? Yes it is a game changer, yes magicka builds are going to be strong option for 1vX again, yes this is good for game balance because it doesn't make magicka builds better than stamina, it makes them more equal.

Ariades_swe

Lots of salty stamplayers in this thread.
And yes I know stamplayers will use it as well but they're just bitter the best anti snare ability will cost magicka and be great for magplayers as well. Suck it up and slot it like magusers had to slot stambased fm for years.
Stam will still have access to the best hot while also having an easier time using the best 1vX defensive mechanic in the game if there's any kind of tree or rock around.

JobooAGS

looks like shuffle is getting 100% replaced and forgotten about

ToRelax

This isn't going to make everyone super mobile all of a sudden. It just overshadows other speed buffs, that's all.

HankTwo

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very concerned about this skill. Reason being it will be one of the best mobility skills in the game, but at the same time it will be available to anyone, no matter the class, weapons, or armor type used. This removes any room for the devs to use mobility as a class balancing factor.

After the reveal of the necromancer I thought that class looks super strong and might be op, but the lack of mobility seemed like one way it could still be balanced. Now that possibility is gone. In the past mag DK was the class with the worst overall mobility. To improve that they introduced a 2 second snare and immobilization immunity to wings. Now all classes get a simply better mobility skill.

So yeah, imo its the complete wrong way to tackle the snare and root problem. They should have added snare removal (maybe even short immunity) to classes that need them specifically and reduced the movement speed reduction of the most oppressive snares. Root immunity was also a good change. But I can't say that I'm looking forward to the new race against time, it will be a non class skill used by almost anybody. Thats not a good thing, imo.

I think "by almost anybody" is overexaggerating. Why would person running in 24 man pug group use it? Why would guy in ballgroup use it when there are already purgebots there? Proper movement and los is most important thing for solo/smallscale. Why would u kill idea of giving such thing for mag and eventually stam ppl who prefer this kind of gameplay? They buffed the charge snares on top of it, so ppl are gonna be snared to hell anyway.

I don't think any single skill should give major expedition and a snare + root immunity without any downsides. Race against time will give minor force, concentrated barrier shield and spell orb proc damage on top of that. Just seems overloaded to me. Who will use mistform when this change goes live? Who will use shuffle? I bet that even many 2h stam players will drop forward momentum for rally + race against time.

Furthermore, roots overall will become much less useful with this change. I know people like you want big mobility buffs and run around resource towers all day, but in BGs its already super annoying when facing someone who has major expedition and can't be rooted or snared (especially in places like up the portals in arcane university). New race against time will give all of this and more in one package.

As I said, some classes should have gotten more tools to counter control playstyle but I simply disagree that such a powerful mobility tool should be available to any build (class, armor, weapon and set combination) while at the same time being behind a paywall (granted, doesn't affect me and most other players but I still dislike the fact).

Since I don't have any roots or hard CC in my class, and I have been on the receiving end of these things for so long, I just can't sympathize.

I know all 3 sides, since I play stamina DK with snare/root immunity, magden control build with master's ice staff and magplar without any hard ccs (total dark doesn't count).

Personally I think an overall snare nerf (like they did to wall of frost and sleet storm) + a root cooldown/passive immunity (they introduced a 3 second immunity in the PTS) + maybe some carefully implemented class specific counters would be the way to go.

Imo, perma rooting and huge snares (>50%) shouldn't be in the game, but that doesn't mean that all builds should have access to a skill that gives immunity against all roots and snares in general (+ major expedition on top).

Why not though? What is the valid reasoning behind forcing some players and builds to be tortured by snares and roots and some not? What is the reason in forcing some specs to be vampires, therefore forcing them take more damage just to handle what the game has turned into? I haven't seen any valid reasoning for making players miserable in the snare/root age.

Because most classes will already have enough mobility with the root cooldown and the snare nerfs. Here's my long answer:

Stamina (in general):
Past forward momentum nerf was justified, imo, now the skill is balanced.
Shuffle is still underperforming for the cost. The skill should get a ~1.5 second base immunity + 0.5 for each piece of medium armor equipped.

Magplar:
At the moment a bit forced to play as vampire, but even the current race against time can be used as an alternative to mistform. In theory extended ritual is a good root counter, but in practice doesn't work well enough because roots can instantly be reapplied and some AOE snares are far too oppressive.
--> Currently lacks mobility, but root cooldown and snare nerfs will help this class immensely. Only thing I might change on top would be a class source of major expedition, but it is not really required because current race against time already exists.

Magblade:
Might be the class at the moment that is most vulnerable to root spam and AOE snares like wall of frost. Shade can be used to counter this a bit but needs to be set up wisely and is too situational.
--> Imo, they should definitely get a class snare and root removal with a short ~2s immunity, but it shouldn't be on cloak. On top of that they need a good and reliable self heal to be viable. The suggested PTS changes are pretty troubling for the class.

MagDK:
They already have access to a snare/root removal + immunity tool with wings.
--> Similar to magplar, the only thing I might change is to give them a better class source of major expedition, since chains is a bit of a weird place for that buff. It shouldn't be on wings, though, to not overload the skill. However, since current race against time already exist this is not a mandatory change.

Magwarden:
With natures embrace they already have one of the strongest mobility skills in the game, even if it requires an ally to use. On top of that they have a spammable albeit weak self purge and with the proposed buff to bird of prey a very strong source of major expedition.
--> Personally I don't think they need any mobility buffs, but you could argue that they are a bit lacking when playing solo open world. The only change that I could imagine is removing the purge from blue betty and instead giving it a snare + root removal (but no immunity). This might be too strong, though, because the skill has no cost.

Magsorc:
With streak/ball of lightning they have arguably the strongest mobility skill in the game and boundless storm is a reliable source of major expedition. Furthermore, their entire kit is specialized on ranged attacks. From my experience they don't have any real mobility problems to speak of.
--> Only thing I would change is letting sorcs always streak in the direction they look when rooted. I consider it a bug that you have to stop pressing any movement keys to do this in the current version of the game.

Conclusion: the proposed root immunity and snare nerfs are definitely a step in the right direction, and will to a degree fix the mobility issues of some classes. Maybe they are still not enough value-wise, but I'm really looking forward to them. However, handing out a mobility skill that blows all other mobility buffs out of the water while at the same time being available to all classes, even the ones that already have strong mobility, is neither needed nor wise. Maybe they can give race against time a snare and root removal, but it shouldn't have the immunity coupled with major expedition as well as all the other boons of that skill.

Edited for clarification.