DragonKnight upcoming /Rant

MaxwellC

@Onefrkncrzypope
The middle ground is to slightly appease the whiners by making certain skills un-reflect-able like they did before (and IMO rightfully so) with force pulse since I did not even see that as a projectile that should be reflected as it's more so a beam.

So far from what I've gathered the most complaints come from NBs in the combat section who complain about crippling grasp being reflected... well make that un-reflect-able. I find it funny they haven't complained about their passive projectile being reflected but that's fine with me.

I also gathered those who used snipe are complaining about it because thanks to the lag it insta kills them even though they take advantage of snipe being a distance travel skill which gives that lag feel that also kills players immediately from stealth while making it look like a health desync.

That is the only middle ground I'd be willing to accept because it's not a over-arching nerf that further dwindles critical thinking skills in this game which have pretty much been reduced to button mashing.

Edwin

MaxwellC wrote: »

@NotEdwin
I didnt know what your build is/was but you exaggerated stating you had or could achieve an infinite uptime for wings & suggested you could remain combative I.e a threat while doing so.

I’d love to see a video of that honestly because that’s a god build right there.

So you admit your short sightedness by clearly stating this is all about one aspect of a class that generally supports both aspects I.e Mag/Stam; thanks for making this clear that you hold no leg in this argument any further.

Lastly you have the audacity to suggest this is a buff to Stam DKs because now we don’t have to flap wings constantly?

Lol what the hell, you really have to be trolling or are a devout believer in Wrobelanity; you must’ve cheered when he stated we don’t need an execute because we should wait for allies to execute our opponent.

Wings reflect again helps this class engage more offensively & making it so you just take less damage when I can dodge roll to take no damage is no buff at all. Reflect is what made this skill worth slotting from the start.

I never once said I could have an infinite uptime for wings, I can have a long uptime for it due to Breton cost reduction and good recovery, even with heavy attacks since I do run a destruction staff.

Yes this is a buff to StamDKs, do you seriously have enough magicka sustain to keep flapping wings? If so, let me know how.

Don't act like you won't be slotting it even after the change, I know I will be, I could have 100% uptime on it on my mag and stam DKs. I don't even currently have it slotted on my stamDK.

I like how you keep using dodge roll as an argument, how many times can you dodge roll on a magDK? How do you remain offensive while dodge rolling on a stamDK?

Iskiab

NotEdwin wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@NotEdwin
I didnt know what your build is/was but you exaggerated stating you had or could achieve an infinite uptime for wings & suggested you could remain combative I.e a threat while doing so.

I’d love to see a video of that honestly because that’s a god build right there.

So you admit your short sightedness by clearly stating this is all about one aspect of a class that generally supports both aspects I.e Mag/Stam; thanks for making this clear that you hold no leg in this argument any further.

Lastly you have the audacity to suggest this is a buff to Stam DKs because now we don’t have to flap wings constantly?

Lol what the hell, you really have to be trolling or are a devout believer in Wrobelanity; you must’ve cheered when he stated we don’t need an execute because we should wait for allies to execute our opponent.

Wings reflect again helps this class engage more offensively & making it so you just take less damage when I can dodge roll to take no damage is no buff at all. Reflect is what made this skill worth slotting from the start.

Yes this is a buff to StamDKs, do you seriously have enough magicka sustain to keep flapping wings? If so, let me know how.

Harness magicka if you’re a magdk.

Ysbriel

I play a character of every class and i approve this message

Onefrkncrzypope

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Onefrkncrzypope
The middle ground is to slightly appease the whiners by making certain skills un-reflect-able like they did before (and IMO rightfully so) with force pulse since I did not even see that as a projectile that should be reflected as it's more so a beam.

So far from what I've gathered the most complaints come from NBs in the combat section who complain about crippling grasp being reflected... well make that un-reflect-able. I find it funny they haven't complained about their passive projectile being reflected but that's fine with me.

I also gathered those who used snipe are complaining about it because thanks to the lag it insta kills them even though they take advantage of snipe being a distance travel skill which gives that lag feel that also kills players immediately from stealth while making it look like a health desync.

That is the only middle ground I'd be willing to accept because it's not a over-arching nerf that further dwindles critical thinking skills in this game which have pretty much been reduced to button mashing.

What about a minimum range where wings stop reflecting. Basically forcing melee engagement? Maybe with a gap closer or cc?

Xsorus

They should of never removed the counter play of Reflect by removing the ability to Reflect a reflected attack.

Betty_Booms

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Let's say something HAS to change with wings. What would be the middle ground?

Wings reflecting on range but no longer reflecting in a certain range that is either melee or close to melee, dks Keep one off their last class identity skills and ranged People have counterplay without having to swap skills.

So the comprimise is for ranged.. who stay at range due to the risk of being a ranged toon, have to get in close to damage the dk, right where the dk wants them. The goal os for ranged to kite melee...this just sounds idiotic.

As for counterplay... a mag sorc may build mines and pulse/blockade etc but doing so then leaves them vulnerable to other ranged... so they are always comprimising to build around the dk regardless so long as a winged dk is present.

Ive heard justifications such as just dont focus the dk....hide... dont attack... its a farse... an absolute joke...

Oh and sayig a dk cant keep up wings is like saying a mag sorc cant keep up shields...

I have dueled other mag dks for great lengths of time and its near 100% uptime.

Because the cost is worth 2 gcds of skills before they come down...meaning the spend to produce 4 projectiles is greater then the cost to apply wings.

All whilst taking that damage back in the face. Couple that with fossilize..effectively forcing a BF and a roll dodge. Zapping stamina. What balance? Where..

The skill may be iconic but its brokenly strong. It needs changing and it gives groups very distinct advantages. Oh and if your rabbling on about nerfing iconic skills just see the mag sorc....

Oh and I cant for the life of me understand how you think this affects gap closing.

Siohwenoeht

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Let's say something HAS to change with wings. What would be the middle ground?

Wings reflecting on range but no longer reflecting in a certain range that is either melee or close to melee, dks Keep one off their last class identity skills and ranged People have counterplay without having to swap skills.

So the comprimise is for ranged.. who stay at range due to the risk of being a ranged toon, have to get in close to damage the dk, right where the dk wants them. The goal os for ranged to kite melee...this just sounds idiotic.

As for counterplay... a mag sorc may build mines and pulse/blockade etc but doing so then leaves them vulnerable to other ranged... so they are always comprimising to build around the dk regardless so long as a winged dk is present.

Ive heard justifications such as just dont focus the dk....hide... dont attack... its a farse... an absolute joke...

Oh and sayig a dk cant keep up wings is like saying a mag sorc cant keep up shields...

I have dueled other mag dks for great lengths of time and its near 100% uptime.

Because the cost is worth 2 gcds of skills before they come down...meaning the spend to produce 4 projectiles is greater then the cost to apply wings.

All whilst taking that damage back in the face. Couple that with fossilize..effectively forcing a BF and a roll dodge. Zapping stamina. What balance? Where..

The skill may be iconic but its brokenly strong. It needs changing and it gives groups very distinct advantages. Oh and if your rabbling on about nerfing iconic skills just see the mag sorc....

Oh and I cant for the life of me understand how you think this affects gap closing.

My first ESO toon is a dk, he's been hanging around since 2015/console release. He hasn't gotten as much play time until just recently, in fact he hadn't even been levelled all the way to 50 yet. He sat for so long due to the many many nerfs to his class that have happened already.

I can live with the rumored changes just fine but I think some really have bad memories/tastes left in the mouth from the previous treatments of the class.

That said, one of the reasons I'm ambivalent about the wings change is that night blade is finally being looked at.

Sanguinor2

Betty_Booms wrote: »

So the comprimise is for ranged.. who stay at range due to the risk of being a ranged toon, have to get in close to damage the dk, right where the dk wants them. The goal os for ranged to kite melee...this just sounds idiotic.

As for counterplay... a mag sorc may build mines and pulse/blockade etc but doing so then leaves them vulnerable to other ranged... so they are always comprimising to build around the dk regardless so long as a winged dk is present.

Ive heard justifications such as just dont focus the dk....hide... dont attack... its a farse... an absolute joke...

Oh and sayig a dk cant keep up wings is like saying a mag sorc cant keep up shields...

I have dueled other mag dks for great lengths of time and its near 100% uptime.

Because the cost is worth 2 gcds of skills before they come down...meaning the spend to produce 4 projectiles is greater then the cost to apply wings.

All whilst taking that damage back in the face. Couple that with fossilize..effectively forcing a BF and a roll dodge. Zapping stamina. What balance? Where..

The skill may be iconic but its brokenly strong. It needs changing and it gives groups very distinct advantages. Oh and if your rabbling on about nerfing iconic skills just see the mag sorc....

Oh and I cant for the life of me understand how you think this affects gap closing.

So your comprimise for melee vs ranged is that dk is just supposed to run after a ranged Player that is kiting while being snared, the ranged Player has Major Expedition and repositioning Tools, with the dk wondering why chains wont fire since chains max range and ranged max range is quite a bit apart (and chains is bugged to hell and back and wont fire 50% off the time even when you are in range) so the dk just becomes a slightly tankier target dummy for kiting ranged builds, yeah sounds just fine.

Oh and Im not "rabbling" About class iconic skills getting nerfed, what I am on About is class iconic skills getting tossed into the trash can and being replaced with a skill that Shares its Name but Little else (sometimes not even sharing the Name).

MaxwellC

@NotEdwin

NotEdwin wrote: »

I never once said I could have an infinite uptime for wings, I can have a long uptime for it due to Breton cost reduction and good recovery, even with heavy attacks since I do run a destruction staff.

Yes this is a buff to StamDKs, do you seriously have enough magicka sustain to keep flapping wings? If so, let me know how.

Don't act like you won't be slotting it even after the change, I know I will be, I could have 100% uptime on it on my mag and stam DKs. I don't even currently have it slotted on my stamDK.

I like how you keep using dodge roll as an argument, how many times can you dodge roll on a magDK? How do you remain offensive while dodge rolling on a stamDK?

So stating that this skill completely negates projectiles, having an high uptime (vague AF) isn't akin to suggesting it has a near infinite uptime even after you stated you could keep spamming it. So which is it, is there a significant gap between the time it is up or is it infinite; You can't play both ways but it's cute to use innuendos to play the "I didn't actually say the word but simply implied it" card

Goodness you truly believe this is a buff because the core argument is since it no longer reflects therefore I won’t use it as often...
Do you understand how asinine you sound right now like you really typed it out & thought “HA! Nailed it”.

Nope if they changed this, I won't slot this anymore like I don't slot Igneous shield anymore after they nerfed our passive to give back 900 stam for something that costs nearly 4k magicka out of my near 10k magicka pool. I won't even detail the nerfs to the skill the proceeded after the goal post moved.

Lastly that last sentence is amazing. You literally took my argument and tried using it against me after you literally dismissed that refute regarding dodge roll being better at mitigating damage. As I stated to another player that you can't dodge roll consistently just like you can't spam wings consistently.

Dodge roll compared to that change is better because I don't get snared, don't have to worry about any damage limiting my maximum health, no debuffs/poisons, and am able to react better because nothing is impeding my character. This change just says "Hello DK, you be Wall, be good wall and die, Thanks".
As someone just said now I gotta take it to the face while trying to get in range as I fight snares... nice going to be fun but all in all just stop, again suggesting you could be competent building for high magicka recovery on a Stam DK is just asinine and you just defeated yourself.

MaxwellC

@Onefrkncrzypope
Nope making it so there's a threshold would make the skill clunky, add another calculation to the server, and pretty much make it useless since this is not only about getting you to the fight but also standing your ground which was the core argument for this class.
We don't burst damage at all unless you wanna count Whip/leap but the trade-off is that we stand our ground and keep the battlefield in our favor when we are in range. It amazes me how the other classes pretty much keep there core but we just get to hand out our skills/lose our core because no one wants to deal with an inherent tank class that they can't 1 click own.

thankyourat

The reason wings have become so strong is that DK damage and sustain has become very strong putting wings over the top. A couple years ago you could play around wings because mag dks ran heavy armor and double S&B or similar builds. So if you stayed in the fight eventually you would be able to run a mag dk low on resources and have burst opportunities. Mag dk still had a slight advantage in the 1v1 matchup but if you out played them you had a chance to win making it balanced.

Today you will never run a mag dk out of resources as a magblade because of the addition of elemental drain as well as most dks currently use light armor, equip a staff for their back bar weapon, and slot harness magicka. Mag dk also had the hardest hitting single target spammable and the hardest hitting ultimate in the game. This combination of sustain, wings, and damage make it impossible to fight a mag dk as a magblade

MaxwellC

@Betty_Booms
Stam DKs can't keep up wings so lets not follow the small minded crowd and remember that each class has a Stamina variant and a Magicka variant; Suggesting that they equally can have a near 100% up-time (which is a BLATANT LIE) is hyperbole at best.

DK wings cost nearly 3.8k magicka and last 4 seconds. A min max Stam DK spec'd for stamina damage has roughly 10k-11k magicka max. In PvP Stam DKs generally have 3 other Magicka related skills i.e Fossilize, Igneous shield & Wings, or Fossilize, Volatile armor, & wings. Suggesting that we would forego our entire pool to spam wings in a fight is simply framing an argument to suit your narrative.

As a Stam DK I engage by first buffing up so there goes volatile armor then hard CCing and there goes fossilize. Since my burst consists of an ultimate and animation cancelling I have to wither my opponent down through sustaining damage (volatile armor) and burning resources (Fossilize); Please tell me how I am spamming wings. I only spam wings when I'm trying to run away from a fight that is no longer one I can handle.

The skill is iconic sure but let's keep this in mind. There was virtually less than what 5% of the complaints all 2018 and even less in 2017 and that's because the skill isn't a problem. If the skill was so broken then we would've been hearing about it non-stop but the truth of the matter is people who complained were focused on other things DKs had like its passives and they kept moving the goal post to now wings.

Dueling isn't in any shape or form an accurate way to assess a skill from any standpoint whatsoever so you can throw that opinion in the garbage.

Universe

Elsweyr Update PTS not released yet and all this "rant" about upcoming changes discussions going on.
You will change nothing by posting such discussions, PTS will go as planned with all major changes included.
When the patch notes will be available to all to see, then it will be a better time to submit your feedback.

MaxwellC

@thankyourat
Again I don't understand how someone can call for removing reflect because they solely focus on one aspect of the class i.e Magicka.
Balancing shouldn't be orientated around one version of the class but both so to even suggest removing reflect completely because you can't fight as a Magblade is asinine.

As I stated before since I've only seen Magblades complaining about this because they can't get off crippling grasp, then simply make that un-reflect-able and to suggest resources are somehow the reason is ridiculous because that isn't the case.
Resources have been significantly gimped from what they used to be way back then.

Mag DKs ran heavy armor way back then because the passives battle-roar allowed for more freedom to focus heavily on sustaining damage to build ultimate and throwing everything into spell power but eons of nerfs later; that is no longer possible.
You would have to build around that to do so and again it's building around it i.e using armor to focus the usage of that skill which suggests that ZOS doesn't really focus on balancing around classes but around armor/CP which is something I have stated is terrible for the game.

MaxwellC

@Universe
Mate this is a rant thread like if I thought my feedback mattered I'd wasted posting on the PTS but as of what pre thieves guild, clearly and compounded data that I gathered way back then to stop them from nerfing our passives was thrown out the window.
Funny thing is, now they're talking about the resource issues we have... hmm if only someone warned them about that a couple years back
Following that ideology I did the same for a few PTS updates after it and found that there was no correlation with what anyone complained about the DK lacking in PTS other than when they asked a few streamers opinions for Mag DKs (when we got Mag DK buffs).

Addition: The threads disclaimer literally states that I'm aware that the changes aren't even out/set in stone yet so I don't get the point of your post other than not reading it.

Betty_Booms

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Betty_Booms
Stam DKs can't keep up wings so lets not follow the small minded crowd and remember that each class has a Stamina variant and a Magicka variant; Suggesting that they equally can have a near 100% up-time (which is a BLATANT LIE) is hyperbole at best.

DK wings cost nearly 3.8k magicka and last 4 seconds. A min max Stam DK spec'd for stamina damage has roughly 10k-11k magicka max. In PvP Stam DKs generally have 3 other Magicka related skills i.e Fossilize, Igneous shield & Wings, or Fossilize, Volatile armor, & wings. Suggesting that we would forego our entire pool to spam wings in a fight is simply framing an argument to suit your narrative.

As a Stam DK I engage by first buffing up so there goes volatile armor then hard CCing and there goes fossilize. Since my burst consists of an ultimate and animation cancelling I have to wither my opponent down through sustaining damage (volatile armor) and burning resources (Fossilize); Please tell me how I am spamming wings. I only spam wings when I'm trying to run away from a fight that is no longer one I can handle.

The skill is iconic sure but let's keep this in mind. There was virtually less than what 5% of the complaints all 2018 and even less in 2017 and that's because the skill isn't a problem. If the skill was so broken then we would've been hearing about it non-stop but the truth of the matter is people who complained were focused on other things DKs had like its passives and they kept moving the goal post to now wings.

Dueling isn't in any shape or form an accurate way to assess a skill from any standpoint whatsoever so you can throw that opinion in the garbage.

Now you are talking about stam dks not keeping up wings... rightfully so! they are a stam class with access to other powerful skills such as vigor etc.. and a stam sorc cant streak or shield very often either...Wings is magicka…..MA GI CKA.... you never could keep them up so why would any change to wings even bother you.....Just stop... please... STOP. We HAVE been hearing about it.. for years!!! SEARCH the forums...Your wings will be changed and rightfully so.. now l2adapt like the rest of us have had too around nerfs. no offense but a mag sorc literally has no reliable CC against a Derp K....cause of wings.. yay keep wishing you can hit your one button wonder bro.....So iconic

Sanguinor2

Betty_Booms wrote: »

no offense but a mag sorc literally has no reliable CC against a Derp K....cause of wings.. yay keep wishing you can hit your one button wonder bro.....So iconic

There is that Thing called rune Cage, might want to look at sorc abilities before claiming that sorc has no cc against wings. Atronarch, scamp and streak also cc through wings but yeah no class cc at all. So do mines and encase (soft cc tho) once 2 seconds are over. Sorc as no cc class exposed.

Edit: Actually a sorc has more cc through wings than a dk does, dk Needs cc buffs confirmed?

Zer0_CooL

Just make inhale an execute dealing up to 200% additional damage to enemies below 25% HP and i dont mind the wing nerf.

Sleep724

So what’s gonna happen to the other morph of wings, since it returns extra damage to the attacker?

MaxwellC

@Betty_Booms
Mate you literally ignored the premise of my argument which is to counter that stupid claim that you had about 100% on a Mag DK and you even stated that DKs can keep wings up. To counter that claim with "iTs BeCuZ tHeYrE sTaMiNa" is stupid when you suggested we could keep it up and I literally laid out why we can't like lol wtf

Wow! Stamina DKs have access to a skill that all other classes has and so that's your argument to why wings on Stam DK shouldn't matter? I really can't follow your argument flow because you just don't have one. Stam DK has vigor which every class has so that's not a powerful argument if that's your reasoning why we should be further gimped when engaging on close range combat.

Lastly yeah every class has had nerfs but guess which class is the top dog in getting nerfed... It's Dragon Knights. You're right please check the forums because it's again the vocal minority who complained less than 10 threads across 2018 and even less 2017.
People like you who may have joined recently complain about this skill because you lack any form of combat strategy and just want a one click fest in hopes you can kill your target with ease; It's the same crowd who moans like children at animation cancelling.

The_Lex

The forum PvP is strong in this thread.

LittlePinkDot

Can somebody link to where you read about these changes?

hope0burns

ANet used to have the same philosophy for their game GW2.

Colin Johanson: "It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards."

However that changed, just like in ESO, just like in so many other games that have had similar philosophies at the start.

The philosophy behind how a game is designed and the philosophy behind how it continues to be updated and changed can, and often will be, two completely different things.

It's not cool or fun to see things change in such obviously blandardized ways that really do remove the unique aspects of various classes, yet it seems to just be the way things go these days, generally in the name of "balance," and even then it's usually in the name of "PvP balance."

Other than things looking different there really can't be any differences in ability to perform in terms of "good" PvP balance, so if there was a class that was naturally better at resource rationing than the others then balance would dictate that it be brought more in line with the other classes.

The biggest problem with balancing is that it's from a very narrow perspective of developers that may not even play their own game and from people who actually care enough to complain about aspects they find unfair but, in reality, may be just fine except they don't know how to fight around it.

So you get what a majority seem to agree is an issue remaining for years and years while things that only a select few ever considered an issue being changed constantly.

It may be possible to balance unique and interesting, yet if it is it seems beyond the capability of most game developers, probably due to their own biases. So the only way most know how to balance is by taking away unique and interesting and working to just bring each class as close to all the other classes as possible.

grannas211

Skimming through this thread is comical. One man said use encase?

Tonnopesce

ssorgatem wrote: »

wait, what? did I miss something?
Where have they said they are nerfing DK wings?

Somewhere i dont remember i believe it was in one of the video of the people who went to zos to test the necro and catland.
No more reflect but instead 50% less damage from range attaks for the entire duration of the skill without cap.

I don't like it... i love to reflect "in-the-face" frags to sorcerers and snipe "in-the-face" to one button smashers

Sanguinor2

grannas211 wrote: »

Skimming through this thread is comical. One man said use encase?

@grannas211
Reading comprehension is a Thing.
I simply listed cc Options, hard and soft, that a sorc has (also probably missed some) because someone told me with a straight face that sorc "literally has no cc that goes through wings". What I did was to state that this is in fact wrong and listed what cc Options there are in the sorc kit that go through dk wings as proof of this.
Really before making comments I recommend actually reading what you are going to be Talking About, it helps.

grannas211

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Skimming through this thread is comical. One man said use encase?

@grannas211
Reading comprehension is a Thing.
I simply listed cc Options, hard and soft, that a sorc has (also probably missed some) because someone told me with a straight face that sorc "literally has no cc that goes through wings". What I did was to state that this is in fact wrong and listed what cc Options there are in the sorc kit that go through dk wings as proof of this.
Really before making comments I recommend actually reading what you are going to be Talking About, it helps.

Ok well Rune cage is trash. No one is using the scamp. Atro is an ultimate. Encase is a meme. Mines is a high cost ability that you can simply avoid or just break. There is no room on your bar for any of those skills.

Streak yes. You cant rely on that is your main stun though do to how the camera works after you streak.

Main burst skill is still reflectable. Youre not killing someone without a frag. Main spammable (master reach is your spammable) also reflectable

But good news for you though since sorc has all those things you listed now youll just take 50% damage all the time.

Sanguinor2

grannas211 wrote: »

Ok well Rune cage is trash. No one is using the scamp. Atro is an ultimate. Encase is a meme. Mines is a high cost ability that you can simply avoid or just break. There is no room on your bar for any of those skills.

Streak yes. You cant rely on that is your main stun though do to how the camera works after you streak.

Main burst skill is still reflectable. Youre not killing someone without a frag. Main spammable (master reach is your spammable) also reflectable

But good news for you though since sorc has all those things you listed now youll just take 50% damage all the time.

Again the list was only made to Dispute the Claim that sorc has no cc that does not get reflected, nowhere did I say that encase or mine spam is a good idea or even remotely efficient.
Also there is quite a few full petsorc that are indeed using the scamp since you can just hide in pets and deal a lot of Damage while just Channeling Lightning heavies and casting daedric Prey once in a while (mostly found in bgs tho).
But the strength, weakness or viability of each of These Options listed was not the Point, the Point was simply that Options are there, thus the Claim that there is no unreflectable cc is false.

ZOS_RogerJ

Just a friendly reminder to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil.