Argonian Racial Passives, Mathematical Balance, why Healing Done is a Crap Stat, and Alternatives

twing1_

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

Silver_Strider

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Narthalion

zaria wrote: »

However the potion passive is also more powerful than an flat recovery on tanks and in pvp as it unaffected by blocking.

Only for the blocking stat though, obviously.

And personally I would much prefer flat recovery. The math for the potion passive is always presented with the best-case scenario. That 178 tri-recovery number is going to drop for every second off cooldown that you wait before popping the next pot. And you might wait if any of your stats need less than 12k to fill back up, because the rest of that value is lost to overflow. Overflow further erodes your actual recovery from this passive. This will still happen with flat recovery too, but burst effects are more prone to overflow loss.

It's a good passive, but it's overrated.

Also, the Healing Done passive is junk, and this post hits the reason spot-on: Healing Done is over-valued by ZOS as a set bonus. It should be re-evaluated not just for Argonians, but for all gear in-game as well.

What I would want instead of Healing Done:

"Adds 258 spell damage to your damage over time and healing over time abilities."

ZOS said of Argonians that "their focus is now on their natural healing capabilities, as well as their ability to prolong and stay in a fight." So make them masters of DoTs and HoTs. Nothing says "prolong" like over-time abilities, right?

twing1_

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

kathandira

Narthalion wrote: »

What I would want instead of Healing Done:

"Adds 258 spell damage to your damage over time and healing over time abilities."

ZOS said of Argonians that "their focus is now on their natural healing capabilities, as well as their ability to prolong and stay in a fight." So make them masters of DoTs and HoTs. Nothing says "prolong" like over-time abilities, right?

Doesn't seem worth it. We already have 2 Races with +258 Spell Damage, which applies to all Spell Damage, direct or over time. It wouldn't really make them better healers than those races.

But in the same vein as what you are getting at, how about something like 'Extend the duration off all Heal Over Time Effects by 2 seconds'

Silver_Strider

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Narthalion

kathandira wrote: »

Doesn't seem worth it. We already have 2 Races with +258 Spell Damage, which applies to all Spell Damage, direct or over time. It wouldn't really make them better healers than those races.

But in the same vein as what you are getting at, how about something like 'Extend the duration off all Heal Over Time Effects by 2 seconds'

True, but neither of those races have a recovery passive, while Argonians do (edit: Spell Recharge returning the off-stat for a healer doesn't count as a recovery passive, as far as I'm concerned). Resourceful may be overrated but it's still a good passive.

And I'd say 2 extra seconds and only for HoTs...would not win me over. Balance-wise, that's at once too small for long duration abilities, and potentially too powerful for abilities that are high value but short duration.

Maybe make it a hybrid bonus to open up Argonian stam builds a little?
"Adds 129 weapon and spell damage to your damage over time and healing over time abilities, and reduces the cost of these abilities by 5%".

So your DoTs and HoTs are cheaper, better, and are so regardless of whether they're magicka or stamina abilities. Does that seem better? Or still not "healer race" enough for peoples' expectations?

More edit: I'm with @Browiseth -- the "healer race" identity isn't something I'm particularly committed to anyway. It's the "prolong and stay in a fight" bit that I find interesting. If Argonians do get another pass, I hope ZOS adjusts their thinking away from just "healer".

Browiseth

kathandira wrote: »

Narthalion wrote: »

What I would want instead of Healing Done:

"Adds 258 spell damage to your damage over time and healing over time abilities."

ZOS said of Argonians that "their focus is now on their natural healing capabilities, as well as their ability to prolong and stay in a fight." So make them masters of DoTs and HoTs. Nothing says "prolong" like over-time abilities, right?

Doesn't seem worth it. We already have 2 Races with +258 Spell Damage, which applies to all Spell Damage, direct or over time. It wouldn't really make them better healers than those races.

But in the same vein as what you are getting at, how about something like 'Extend the duration off all Heal Over Time Effects by 2 seconds'

we've already established that +healing is just a garbage thing to invest in, though.

quite frankly, this obsession with "argonians do da healing" needs to stop in my opinion. it's such a literal interpretation of the idea that "they're good at surviving in a swamp" it's just clumsy and embarassing. Argonians really need to gain some stats to give them some dps capabilities, like +stamina or +weapon and spell damage after drinking a potion, if we're so dedicated to this damned potion passive

kathandira

Narthalion wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Doesn't seem worth it. We already have 2 Races with +258 Spell Damage, which applies to all Spell Damage, direct or over time. It wouldn't really make them better healers than those races.

But in the same vein as what you are getting at, how about something like 'Extend the duration off all Heal Over Time Effects by 2 seconds'

True, but neither of those races have a recovery passive, while Argonians do. Resourceful may be overrated but it's still a good passive.

And I'd say 2 extra seconds and only for HoTs...would not win me over. Balance-wise, that's at once too small for long duration abilities, and potentially too powerful for abilities that are high value but short duration.

Maybe make it a hybrid bonus to open up Argonian stam builds a little?
"Adds 129 weapon and spell damage to your damage over time and healing over time abilities, and reduces the cost of these abilities by 5%".

So your DoTs and HoTs are cheaper, better, and are so regardless of whether they're magicka or stamina abilities. Does that seem better? Or still not "healer race" enough for peoples' expectations?

I can dig it. Cost reduction is always welcome to me for a healer.

twing1_

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

I agree, it isn't the cleanest fit. But argonians unquestionably have a higher disease resistance than bosmers (bosmers too fall victim of the knahaten flu whereas argonians don't), so giving bosmer disease resist (and removing it from argonians) would be to me even more alarming.

MartiniDaniels

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

I agree, it isn't the cleanest fit. But argonians unquestionably have a higher disease resistance than bosmers (bosmers too fall victim of the knahaten flu whereas argonians don't), so giving bosmer disease resist (and removing it from argonians) would be to me even more alarming.

I think resistance and immunity are too different things. IMO both argonian and bosmer resistances were ok before U21 and given that both races are on the weak side of the roster ZOS could keep them as before. But probably somebody from combat team was tired of being wrecked by woodelfs and lizards in PVP so here we are.

macsmooth

I like the idea of extending any of the buffs/healing by like 2 seconds not sure I want to see other races take a hit just because they are good for a couple of roles it needs to be buff a race to the others not nerf every race down to one (deja vu)

HatchetHaro

macsmooth wrote: »

I like the idea of extending any of the buffs/healing by like 2 seconds not sure I want to see other races take a hit just because they are good for a couple of roles it needs to be buff a race to the others not nerf every race down to one (deja vu)

The thing with this mindset is that if we continue this trend of buffing things to the level of OP things, power creep occurs. At this point racial passives on the BiS races are way too powerful for their own good, and the standard honestly should be set lower.

I understand why people don't want Bretons to be nerfed to the way I was talking about, but right now their sustain is still way too powerful. The only thing Magicka-based that Bretons aren't BiS in at this point is Magblade DPS; the rest they are hands-down the best in every way.

I talked about bringing them down to about Bosmer levels of sustain, but thinking about it a bit more, Bosmer and Redguards are actually on par with Orcs on resource-heavy classes like Stamsorc, but otherwise, on classes like Stamblades, they have too much sustain, or they have too little if they switch to bi-stat food. Another way we can do this is to buff them to Breton levels of sustain instead, but then they'd be too powerful for those resource-heavy Stamina classes as well as PvP.

I think a middle ground would be best; somewhere along the lines of 290 base Stamina/Magicka recovery or whatever the equivalent is for Bretons, Redguards, and Bosmer would balance things out a bit and make them more viable than their raw damage counterparts (Altmer, Dunmer, and Orcs) on certain classes, and less so on others.

Drako_Ei

Thank you for making this thread

BlackMadara

Imo, keep the potion passive, switch the resistance passives of argonian and bosmer, give argonian some stamina, and buff healing done passive and set bonuses to the point that they outclass flat spell damage for heals at moderate amounts of spell damage.

This way, Argonians are a bit more lore friendly, become more hybrid-like for tanking, and can lean on their healing done passive to build for other stats as healers.

Cundu_Ertur

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Agreed.
The points against disease resistance in Bosmer (Thrassian plague and Knahten flu) are actually fairly weak. Every race, even Argonians and Bosmer with 100% disease resistance (via buffs) can catch diseases of Daedric/Aedric origin (Corprus in Morrowind, Vampirism from siding with the vampires in Dawnguard, Lycanthropy from the Companions and in Bloodmoon). As far as I have found, there was no Argonian resistance to the Thrassian plague. If the Knahaten flu was, as is popularly believed, derived from the Hist then that is a source of power comparable to the Aedra and Daedra, and thus easily able to defeat any non-magical and even most magical forms of resistance.

I have one Argonian (around level 10), and three Bosmer (one CP300+, two level 35 -- they are my 3 highest level toons), so I am not speaking out to get some advantage. I just think the lore favors Argonians having the passive of strong poison resistance, some disease resistance (about 1/2 strength of the poison resistance), and immunity to the poisoned effect; while Bosmer should have strong disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect. Again, I think this despite my preference for Bosmer, and despite feeling that poison resistance is the better of the two in a gameplay sense.

Seraphayel

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

MartiniDaniels

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

Blacksmoke

Glad the argonians are out..

Koronach

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Agreed.
The points against disease resistance in Bosmer (Thrassian plague and Knahten flu) are actually fairly weak. Every race, even Argonians and Bosmer with 100% disease resistance (via buffs) can catch diseases of Daedric/Aedric origin (Corprus in Morrowind, Vampirism from siding with the vampires in Dawnguard, Lycanthropy from the Companions and in Bloodmoon). As far as I have found, there was no Argonian resistance to the Thrassian plague. If the Knahaten flu was, as is popularly believed, derived from the Hist then that is a source of power comparable to the Aedra and Daedra, and thus easily able to defeat any non-magical and even most magical forms of resistance.

I have one Argonian (around level 10), and three Bosmer (one CP300+, two level 35 -- they are my 3 highest level toons), so I am not speaking out to get some advantage. I just think the lore favors Argonians having the passive of strong poison resistance, some disease resistance (about 1/2 strength of the poison resistance), and immunity to the poisoned effect; while Bosmer should have strong disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect. Again, I think this despite my preference for Bosmer, and despite feeling that poison resistance is the better of the two in a gameplay sense.

They either messed up or didn't review the lore like they said. They literally molded Argonian lore in ESO around having Poison and Disease resistance. We have multiple sources stating it IN GAME. You can't just remove something you ingrained into the games lore. Diseases made by the Daedric princes aren't resistant to anybody. Corprus made by Dagoth Ur, only the
Nerevarine was resistant. Those are special diseases, don't forget the Llodos plague in Deshaan.

The Maulborn cure was actually the plague they didn't give it to Argonians because they knew they were immune. They played it off as being racist and didn't want to give them the so called cure.

Cundu_Ertur

Koronach wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Agreed.
The points against disease resistance in Bosmer (Thrassian plague and Knahten flu) are actually fairly weak. Every race, even Argonians and Bosmer with 100% disease resistance (via buffs) can catch diseases of Daedric/Aedric origin (Corprus in Morrowind, Vampirism from siding with the vampires in Dawnguard, Lycanthropy from the Companions and in Bloodmoon). As far as I have found, there was no Argonian resistance to the Thrassian plague. If the Knahaten flu was, as is popularly believed, derived from the Hist then that is a source of power comparable to the Aedra and Daedra, and thus easily able to defeat any non-magical and even most magical forms of resistance.

I have one Argonian (around level 10), and three Bosmer (one CP300+, two level 35 -- they are my 3 highest level toons), so I am not speaking out to get some advantage. I just think the lore favors Argonians having the passive of strong poison resistance, some disease resistance (about 1/2 strength of the poison resistance), and immunity to the poisoned effect; while Bosmer should have strong disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect. Again, I think this despite my preference for Bosmer, and despite feeling that poison resistance is the better of the two in a gameplay sense.

They either messed up or didn't review the lore like they said. They literally molded Argonian lore in ESO around having Poison and Disease resistance. We have multiple sources stating it IN GAME. You can't just remove something you ingrained into the games lore. Diseases made by the Daedric princes aren't resistant to anybody. Corprus made by Dagoth Ur, only the
Nerevarine was resistant. Those are special diseases, don't forget the Llodos plague in Deshaan.

The Maulborn cure was actually the plague they didn't give it to Argonians because they knew they were immune. They played it off as being racist and didn't want to give them the so called cure.

Not to nit-pick, but there Nerevarine does catch Corprus, and 100% disease resistance doesn't stop it. Only completing the questline allows it to be cured, but one of the side effects is an innate 100% disease resistance. Which doesn't stop the Nerevarine from catching lycanthropy in Bloodmoon if you do that later.

In 3E 427 the Nerevarine became infected with corprus, and Divayth Fyr provided a "cure" for the disease. This "cure" did not actually cure the disease but rather removed the negative effects, such as crippling physical deformities and insanity, while retaining the positive effects, including immunity to all diseases, increased strength and endurance, and possibly also immortality.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Corprus

That the insanity was cured for my several incarnations is debatable.

OolongSnakeTea

My trial healer is an argo argonian, and I feel this thread in my core. Am I going to race swap her? Probs not, but I know I could be doing better if I did.

But Arognians were my main in Morrowind, in Oblivion, and my first forays in to Skyrim. I don't think its going to change anytime soon in ESO.

But the meta....

Koronach

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

SpringEternal wrote: »

Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad."

Wow thanks for the timely source info. Idk how you are finding those, but those are much appreciated.

Doesn't the chef avoiding the dish and the author dying from it evidence that argonians have stronger resistances to disease than poison?

No race is truly immune to poison in regards to ES lore. Some races just have a higher tolerance to it, such as Argonian and Bosmer. However, Argonian are the only documented race that actually build up their tolerance thru ingesting poisonous foods and plants so it makes it even stranger that they lost poison resistance at all.

Granted. They should have both.

But given the "pick one and only one" nature of ZOS's balancing scheme, I think argonians recieveing disease resistance on account of their natural immunity to the knahaten flu is the right choice over giving them poison resist on account of their practice of mithridatism. Theoretically, any race could build up poison resistances by ingesting small doses. Only argonians are naturally immune to the knahaten flu.

They should have resistances to both, but as long as they are forced to have either one or the other, disease resistance is the way to go.

Still, Bosmer tolerance for poison is much less than that of Argonian, even naturally. There's a quest in Greenshade of a group of Bosmer that poisoned themselves to kill another tribe as they partook of the Green Pact to eat their fallen foes, resulting in the invading tribe dying due to food poisoning.

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Agreed.
The points against disease resistance in Bosmer (Thrassian plague and Knahten flu) are actually fairly weak. Every race, even Argonians and Bosmer with 100% disease resistance (via buffs) can catch diseases of Daedric/Aedric origin (Corprus in Morrowind, Vampirism from siding with the vampires in Dawnguard, Lycanthropy from the Companions and in Bloodmoon). As far as I have found, there was no Argonian resistance to the Thrassian plague. If the Knahaten flu was, as is popularly believed, derived from the Hist then that is a source of power comparable to the Aedra and Daedra, and thus easily able to defeat any non-magical and even most magical forms of resistance.

I have one Argonian (around level 10), and three Bosmer (one CP300+, two level 35 -- they are my 3 highest level toons), so I am not speaking out to get some advantage. I just think the lore favors Argonians having the passive of strong poison resistance, some disease resistance (about 1/2 strength of the poison resistance), and immunity to the poisoned effect; while Bosmer should have strong disease resistance and immunity to the diseased effect. Again, I think this despite my preference for Bosmer, and despite feeling that poison resistance is the better of the two in a gameplay sense.

They either messed up or didn't review the lore like they said. They literally molded Argonian lore in ESO around having Poison and Disease resistance. We have multiple sources stating it IN GAME. You can't just remove something you ingrained into the games lore. Diseases made by the Daedric princes aren't resistant to anybody. Corprus made by Dagoth Ur, only the
Nerevarine was resistant. Those are special diseases, don't forget the Llodos plague in Deshaan.

The Maulborn cure was actually the plague they didn't give it to Argonians because they knew they were immune. They played it off as being racist and didn't want to give them the so called cure.

Not to nit-pick, but there Nerevarine does catch Corprus, and 100% disease resistance doesn't stop it. Only completing the questline allows it to be cured, but one of the side effects is an innate 100% disease resistance. Which doesn't stop the Nerevarine from catching lycanthropy in Bloodmoon if you do that later.

In 3E 427 the Nerevarine became infected with corprus, and Divayth Fyr provided a "cure" for the disease. This "cure" did not actually cure the disease but rather removed the negative effects, such as crippling physical deformities and insanity, while retaining the positive effects, including immunity to all diseases, increased strength and endurance, and possibly also immortality.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Corprus

That the insanity was cured for my several incarnations is debatable.

Haven't played Morrowind in forever the 100% disease resistance you gain is what I was thinking about. Thanks for the reminder.

Seraphayel

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

I can accept when nerfs are reasonable and make sense. In this case they were ok. Argonians are still great in what they were great before. Just because somebody expected them to get DPS racials when there was absolutely no indication for it it's not really ZOS fault when those players are angry or disappointed now.

Silver_Strider

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

They're a troll. Ignore them.

HatchetHaro

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

I can accept when nerfs are reasonable and make sense. In this case they were ok. Argonians are still great in what they were great before. Just because somebody expected them to get DPS racials when there was absolutely no indication for it it's not really ZOS fault when those players are angry or disappointed now.

"Hey your race is still good just as long as you ignore the massive buffs all the other races got to surpass your race in terms of everything."

It's like saying "relax, they're meant to be a slave race so it makes sense they are the weakest amongst all the races now".

Completely and utterly ridiculous.

xaraan

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

I can accept when nerfs are reasonable and make sense. In this case they were ok. Argonians are still great in what they were great before. Just because somebody expected them to get DPS racials when there was absolutely no indication for it it's not really ZOS fault when those players are angry or disappointed now.

"Hey your race is still good just as long as you ignore the massive buffs all the other races got to surpass your race in terms of everything."

It's like saying "relax, they're meant to be a slave race so it makes sense they are the weakest amongst all the races now".

Completely and utterly ridiculous.

Indeed. That post as the epitome of "your stats are good enough not to complain" that we've been seeing on the forums in response to this.

In reality, they aren't balanced. Anyone choosing races for meta or just the best choice when making a new class has no reason to consider Argonian in the running anymore outside of an acceptable rating for tanking. I think the folks playing Argonians now will only be those of us that love playing as the race, or those that just don't care to change what they already have.

wedgebert

xaraan wrote: »

I think the folks playing Argonians now will only be those of us that love playing as the race, or those that just don't care to change what they already have.

I was going to call this Bosmer Town, but since Argonian's live there now too, I guess we'll need a better name.

Narthalion

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

No more than I am for liking Spell Recharge on my Altmer mDK. (shh, don't tell anybody)

On the other hand...be honest. Have you ever actually noticed the 6% Healing Done? When Major Mending offers 25%...even Minor offers 8%...

I've been healing in MMOs for almost 17 years now, and I don't give a skeever's arse about 6%. It's not enough to open up a cooldown for a non-heal spell that you wouldn't have gotten anyway. It's too small to rely on as a life-saver in circumstances when a lesser heal might not have been enough to live through that next hit. Whatever efficiency you might hope for is going to mostly be lost to over-healing.

It stinks. It does next to nothing to make Argonians better healers, and yet Healing Done is given so much value in bonus calculations that it drags the whole race down with it.

None of which is to say that you're wrong to enjoy the race/class combo. I bet the 20 ultimate you get from Catalyst combined with Resourceful stats is pretty great. But that doesn't make us wrong to call out the race's shortcomings.

Koronach

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm an Argonian Nightblade (Healer) and I like the Argonian racials. Am I an outcast now?

But you were directly nerfed by U21, while other healer race (Bretons) was notably buffed, what to be happy about from your point of view? o_0

I can accept when nerfs are reasonable and make sense. In this case they were ok. Argonians are still great in what they were great before. Just because somebody expected them to get DPS racials when there was absolutely no indication for it it's not really ZOS fault when those players are angry or disappointed now.

Ok so where is our poison resistance that has been baked into ESO's lore for the past 5 years? Yeah that's what I thought you can't argue that because it's actually in ESO's lore not Skryim or any other game, ESO.