Dragon invasion breaks the lore, we should all be dead or dying soon

Aedrion

Well, I didn't see this lore-debacle coming in the ESO Zone-trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlBBUmWFDkU

I was sure they'd treat this part of the lore with some respect but it seems we've devolved into just another nonsensical MMO that'll *** its own lore on the altar of money.
Three dragons? Nay, let's have a whole army of them!

So here's how it goes, right?

Dragons were around in the 1st Era and before. In that time, they ruled over Tamriel, uncontested by mortals, who had no voice. Under the rule of Alduin and the dragon priests, mortals suffered and Kynareth took pity. She granted mortals a voice too and shared the Thu'um with many of them. In the great dragon war, mortals created Dragonrend, a shout able to make even the mightiest dragons vulnerable. Dragons were hunted to near extinction and the few that remained went into seclusion or hiding, biding their time until Alduin, the World Eater, would return to wake his kin and retake Nirn.

In the 4th Era, Alduin leaves the Tiid-Ahraan, the time-wound and finds his kin dead. He brings them back to life so they might again follow he whose Thu'um is mightiest. None could have challenged him or his Dovah but then there was one who could. Dovahkiin, the last Dragonborn. A single mortal with a Thu'um strong enough to rival and beat Alduin. After that, the Dov likely stopped their invasion of Tamriel, while perhaps not their attacks on mortals. A balanced peace, for now.

What do both victories over dragons have in common? Mortals with mastery of the Thu'um. First the Ancient Nords and then the dragonborn.
What do we have currently in game? No sign of the Greybeards, voiceless nords and multiple dragons seemingly able to bring their own back to life, given how many there suddenly are.

If it was three dragons, aight. You can win that one. Beat them with an army - even IF you have no Thu'um -, bury them, barricade the tombs, make sure they can't bring eachother back.
But now we've seen it's multiple dragons all over! This can't end with a clean victory, we have no dragonborn! We have no masters of the Thu'um - at least none involved. We can't kill them or keep them dead if there's a bunch of them. And even if somehow, miraculously through the power of plot, champion points and Vestige-ness we win... why wouldn't there be a record of this? Hilarious!

The 2nd dragon war wouldn't be a footnote.

Nah man, f*ck this. This is a cashgrab on the back of their own lore. ESO is turning into WoW. They'll do whatever it takes to make fans *** their pants or soak their panties and ride the lulz-train all the way to the bank.

Does anyone have an elder scroll, teleport me forward in time please so I don't need to live through this shlock.

Robo_Hobo

You skipped the part where the Akaviri came over to Tamriel to wipe out Dragons because they hate them for some reason. They didn't rely on the Thu'um to kill Dragons because the Thu'um by then because that was after Jurgen Windcaller's time. It wasn't the Nords who brought them to near extinction in the Dragon War - many died, surely, but many lived on into historical times, only to be brought to near extinction by the Dragonguard throughout the ages since.

There's nothing saying that the Dragonguard aren't still doing that to this day, the only timeframe we have on them is a book from Skyrim dated to 2E 373, 209 years before the time ESO takes place, and even in that book (Atlas of Dragons) it says "Unfortunately, only a few of the dragons slain by our Akaviri predecessors during the Crusade were recorded and thus this list is sadly incomplete."

Beyond that, there's the Annals of the Dragonguard that was transcripted by Brother Annulus of the Dragonguard, during the year 2E 568, which is only 14 years prior to the events of ESO. The actual contents of that were written long before, but the fact is that it shows the Dragonguard is still around even up to 14 years prior to the events of ESO, possibly still out hunting dragons. In ESO's time Dragons may be in hiding and hard to find at this point, but there's nothing actually saying when exactly the Dragonguard finished their crusade of hunting down dragons, this could be one of the final pushes that brings them out of hiding, so that they can be killed off (almost) once and for all. Until Skyrim anyway.

Aedrion

Claudman

Another "I don't know about the lore, but I'm going to say that this is lore-breaking" thread.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/atlas-dragons
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/there-be-dragons
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/dragon-war


"The last known sighting of a dragon in Tamriel was in the time of Tiber Septim."

I highly doubt that literally every person in the Dragonguard was a Dragonborn or a Thu'um user. Dragons can die, but they can be resurrected if they were to die if there is no Dragonborn because the Dragonborn doesn't just kill the body, they steal the soul as well.

I mean, it was explicitly stated that the Dragonborn was the only one who can permanently kill them, meaning that they can be temporarily killed at the cost of them being resurrected by another dragon later. I highly doubt this is a "large scale dragon war" especially since the Dragonguard has slain many nameless dragons long after the Dragon War.

ChunkyCat

Nerd.

Mojmir

dont care, dragons have arrived. IMO you cant have a fantasy game without them.

Tensar

Mojmir wrote: »

dont care, dragons have arrived. IMO you cant have a fantasy game without them.

Then how was elder scrolls serie before skyrim?

Ankael07

Tensar wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

dont care, dragons have arrived. IMO you cant have a fantasy game without them.

Then how was elder scrolls serie before skyrim?

There was one in Battlespire (Papré), Redguard (Nafaalilargus) and Oblivion (Akatosh)

ArchMikem

OP sounds like all of his lore understanding about Dragons stems from Skyrim alone. The entire history of the Dragons dont revolve around the Nords, like you said Dragons spanned all across Tamriel. There's even a Dragon grave over in Grahtwood you can walk up to and chat with a dead Dragon.

In Elsweyr an ancient group of Khajiit, an Elf, and a Nord (theres your bit of Skyrim for you) through some means imprisoned a sect a Dragons away probably because like you said, they couldnt be defeated otherwise. This isnt an Army of Dragons, like half a dozen at most, and i bet the main Questline is going to be about imprisoning them again with a new seal.

Browiseth

will copy and paste my response to a similar thread

Browiseth wrote: »

"dragons were never gone, they were just hiding...and very very sneaky"

elder scrolls lore operates on an unreliable narrator principle. most players think dragons were extinct or extremely rare because all the nords in tes:v say so. but most people by the time of skyrim don't know anything about dragons or real history, and nords are well known for embellishing or over romanticising their own history to begin with.

just apply it to the real world for context; would you really believe some backwater, overly patriotic normal person on his country's history? because that's what many nords are in the context of tes:v skyrim, people who don't really understand history, but really want to pretend their race and country is better than it is. it makes sense they would twist history to make it seem like the ancient nords wiped out 99% of all dragons in a place of a lack of information

bit of a long ramble i could have structured better, but hopefully you get my meaning

this idea that dragon's were gone until the time of Skyrim has never been true as far as i know. Beth have always been good for covering their backsides in situations like this, so the "unreliable narrator" excuse has always been legit

basically, the next chapter won't break lore, stop pretending that it will guys

RealWhiteGuar

Prior to the events of Skyrim, there are loads of dragons knocking around. Skakmat, Paarthurnax, Nafaalilargus, Ahbiilok, to name a few.

Not to mention I'd hardly call seven dragons (yes I counted them as they left the Halls of Colossus) an army. If Abnur Tharn's plan to contain them in Elsweyr succeeds, then other provinces may be entirely unaware of it. Heck, people in 4th Era Skyrim thought they were extinct! Clearly they're not, ESO notwithstanding.

There is nothing about this dragon conflict that breaks lore continuity.

luizhd

Forgive me if I`m wring, but doesn`t ESO happen almost a millennia before Skyrim? werent Dragons resurected in the 5th game? Doesn`t that mean that dead dragons that still had their souls intact up to the point in which we control a Dragonborn could still be revived at any point in time?

As far as I can see, Dragons coming back to life in ESO are very much Lore friendly if you follow the logic and rules set by the past games.

RebornV3x

OP is right this expansion is definitely lore breaking and I'm fine with 1 or 2 Dragon bosses in a dungeon or trial but having them fly around is BS hopefully well meet The Blades or some type of Akaviri that hunt dragons or this whole story line there making is dumb

At the end of the day as long as the game makes more money, brings and retains more players and the game becomes more successful than lore be damn

but its still a shame and I think it will hurt the series in the long run when the dev team just pushes aside established lore so blatantly.

Let me guess next years chapter will be the return of the long lost Dwemer this time you will have to get 3 yes 3 stone tablets that unlocks some vault under Red Mountain and boom just like that there back only to never be seen or heard of again tell TES 3: Morrowind. also this new chapter comes with a new playable race the Dwemer cause why not.

luizhd

What lore is it that everyone keeps saying they are breaking but never specify in the comments? Everything I see, while solid, still doesn`t cover 100% of the holes they could use to bring dragons back. And even if it was, the whole premise of having 3 pacts in the second age already breaks a few important lore aspects, so why is LORE such an important and sacred thing now? Lore is supposed to serve the game and make it better, not the other way around.

Just enjoy the game, jee.

Also, as far as I`m aware, Daggerfall introduced the concept of multiple timelines as being canon. If it bothers you so much that they are bringing a bunch of dragons into the mix, just consider ESO one of those different timelines. I highly doubt they`ll use many story arcs from ESO in TES6 anyways.

Aristocles22

Lore is still important, even in a series with a large number of cop-outs and loopholes built into it like TES (dragon breaks, transcription errors, etc). Breaking lore breaks immersion, and while lore has to serve the gameplay, the gameplay has to serve lore by not breaking it. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Now, does this break lore? Sort of. It is a return of dragons before Alduin's return, but there were already dragons in the world before he came back from being banished by the ancient Nordic heroes. I suppose its not so much a lore break as it is underwhelming. Alduin was supposed to herald the long-prophesied return of the dragons... who already returned once before he did. If Alduin's return was like Christopher Columbus, this wave of dragons is like Leif Erikson. It happened, but it didn't really make that big of a difference. Plus, dragons were always a part of Nordic lore in TES, associated with the frozen north. Throwing them into a desert, the exact opposite of Skyrim's climate, just seems off.

FleetwoodSmack

Claudman wrote: »

Another "I don't know about the lore, but I'm going to say that this is lore-breaking" thread.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/atlas-dragons
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/there-be-dragons
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/dragon-war


"The last known sighting of a dragon in Tamriel was in the time of Tiber Septim."

I highly doubt that literally every person in the Dragonguard was a Dragonborn or a Thu'um user. Dragons can die, but they can be resurrected if they were to die if there is no Dragonborn because the Dragonborn doesn't just kill the body, they steal the soul as well.

I mean, it was explicitly stated that the Dragonborn was the only one who can permanently kill them, meaning that they can be temporarily killed at the cost of them being resurrected by another dragon later. I highly doubt this is a "large scale dragon war" especially since the Dragonguard has slain many nameless dragons long after the Dragon War.

Quoting this so people start reading the links again. Because obviously they need to.

Ysbriel

In a Story that has multiple timelines (The Psjic Order and Dragon Breaks proves this) nothing can really be considered lorebreaking. Even the events of the interregnum might not be part of the same timeline of the events of TES4 and TES5.
Even Bethesda or ZOS can make a TES game where the Dwemer are still populating their cities.

Korah_Eaglecry

The only thing that needs to be explained, and can easily be done in Elder Scrolls VI is why information on the Dragons was so scarce through out the 3rd and 4th Eras. And that events like the Season of the Dragon was somehow not even a footnote in Tamriels history books during those time periods. The obvious answer is the interregnum, but some nuance and details on this would be nice. Maybe some scholars and treasure hunters uncover a treasure trove of previously lost writings on the 2nd Era.

Nothing in the lore strictly states that things like the Season of the Dragon could not or did not occur. Especially since we know that Dragons arent completely wiped out by the Nords during the Dragon War. Prior to Schick leaving, something he said often was that he wasnt there to say no, but rather to find ways to say yes. Introducing Dragons in this manner respects the current lore but gives ZOS the opportunity to tell a new story very much in line with what could possibly happen in Tamriel during this time period.

One way or another, the Vestige will go down in ES history as being a hero tied to some of the most epic events to occur in short order in Tamriel.

Wa2p

Re: Not even a footnote (barring time shenanigans.):

Molag Bal recently tried to take over Nirn. Vvardenfell almost exploded. The Crystal Tower almost sent out pure darkness to the world. Not to mention all the other zone specific bits and bobs that could be world impacting. But you know what there is a huge war going on, and even though we don't see much of it in the cities outside Cyrodiil. That's huge. Do you think Emeric really believes that three Daedric princes worked together to try to take the Crystal tower? Do you think Ayrenn really care Vvardenfell almost went boom? Hell, they couldn't even really get on to stop Molag, something that affected them all. now dragons, might be released but are only in Elsweyr?

Ayrenn may care, but no one will believer her, and considering this war goes on and on. Until history can be written by the victor. There were rumors of things, but no one but some cats saw it while they were took over by a powerful mage. Probably just imagined it, or they were illusions, or an other series of excuses.

I'm sure there are huge events in one culture that happened thousands of years ago, that were major at the time and people thought it would live in infamy that just aren't footnote in our actual history. History in certain ways is a very unreliable view of history. because somethings can't be corroborated -- or no one "important" cared enough to write it down. Or it never ventured out of the relatively small effected zone.

SantieClaws

Ah - this one will have what you have all been drinking please!

There is no such thing as dragons.

Khajiit has been to Elsweyr herself and all she saw was a really big Argonian. Yes she admits she was running quite fast at the time to avoid the threat of having to do work. (see recent article on the subject)

All these stories made up to frighten the little kittens - and you grown warriors, traders, bards, pocket engineers and mages all believe them?!

All is well in Elsweyr and this one is such all will still be well in a few months when we get there. It's not as if there are a bunch of these dragon things hidden away somewhere just waiting to get out.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

VaranisArano

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Lore is still important, even in a series with a large number of cop-outs and loopholes built into it like TES (dragon breaks, transcription errors, etc). Breaking lore breaks immersion, and while lore has to serve the gameplay, the gameplay has to serve lore by not breaking it. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Now, does this break lore? Sort of. It is a return of dragons before Alduin's return, but there were already dragons in the world before he came back from being banished by the ancient Nordic heroes. I suppose its not so much a lore break as it is underwhelming. Alduin was supposed to herald the long-prophesied return of the dragons... who already returned once before he did. If Alduin's return was like Christopher Columbus, this wave of dragons is like Leif Erikson. It happened, but it didn't really make that big of a difference. Plus, dragons were always a part of Nordic lore in TES, associated with the frozen north. Throwing them into a desert, the exact opposite of Skyrim's climate, just seems off.

The full measure of the extinction of the Dragons won't happen until the resurgence of the Akaviri Dragonguard under Tiber Septim, some 300 years in the future of ESO.

After that, there are very, very few dragons who are driven deep into hiding. That's the event that truly makes Alduin's return herald the return of the rest of the dragons...and it hasn't happened yet.

Besides, these guys were just locked up like the one you can fight in Blackreach. Alduin's going to be raising his dragons (except for Mirmulnir who was in hiding) from the dead.

IIISYNIII

LickingHistSap

Dragon's didn't go extinct until the 3rd Era, man. A direct quote from a Skyrim Lorebook:

"The last known sighting of a dragon in Tamriel was in the time of Tiber Septim… It seems the last few vanished all at once.", meaning dragons were still around until the early Third Era.

Even then there were exceptions. Skyrim itself gives us one, with a Dunmer having met with and recorded a conversation with a living dragon who was on Vvardenfell just after the Red Year, and there was at least one other Dragon alive and allied with the city of Daggerfall in the Third Era during the war of Betony. And now thanks to Blades, there are even more survivors.

The last Dragonguard Dragon hunt we have on record is from 2e300, just 200 years prior to ESO. There is no lore contradiction with 7 dragons being active right now in the mid Second Era.

OtarTheMad

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Dragon's didn't go extinct until the 3rd Era, man. A direct quote from a Skyrim Lorebook:

"The last known sighting of a dragon in Tamriel was in the time of Tiber Septim… It seems the last few vanished all at once.", meaning dragons were still around until the early Third Era.

Even then there were exceptions. Skyrim itself gives us one, with a Dunmer having met with and recorded a conversation with a living dragon who was on Vvardenfell just after the Red Year, and there was at least one other Dragon alive and allied with the city of Daggerfall in the Third Era during the war of Betony. And now thanks to Blades, there are even more survivors.

The last Dragonguard Dragon hunt we have on record is from 2e300, just 200 years prior to ESO. There is no lore contradiction with 7 dragons being active right now in the mid Second Era.

^ so much this

That Tiber Septim quote is speaking of when he gathered up a bunch of wild dragons and made a deal with them but that deal went sour and dragons went from being loners to being invisible and that was towards the end of the second era.

Dragons now are not even close to lore breaking, and neither is them being in Elsweyr because if dragons were running from the Nords during the Dragon War I am sure they would not be picky about where they chose to stay.

Katheriah

You been listening to the kitty folk? Demons!

JK_Knight

Really. If you think something is lore-breaking that's fine, but do some research about it if you're gonna make a thread about it, otherwise you're gonna look like a *** who talks about something he doesn't understand.

The last recorded Dragons (before the events of Skyrim) were during the time of Tiber Septim who was born centuries after events of ESO.
Sure Dragons were rare but they were in no way considered extinct. Abnur Tharn is not even surprised to find out that there are Dragons sealed in that vault.

I myself didn't know these things until they announced Elsweyr and Dragons. Just like you I thought that Dragons were supposed to be extinct at this time but I looked it up and found this information.

Steelshiv

Just hopped in here and am enjoying the lore citations. Nice work everyone! Carry on.

Smaxx

It all fits and just wanted to add my take, because it's in the end very plausible and doesn't even need any extra lore outside Skyrim to explain:

Aedrion wrote: »

Dragons were around in the 1st Era and before. In that time, they ruled over Tamriel, uncontested by mortals, who had no voice. Under the rule of Alduin and the dragon priests, mortals suffered and Kynareth took pity. She granted mortals a voice too and shared the Thu'um with many of them. In the great dragon war, mortals created Dragonrend, a shout able to make even the mightiest dragons vulnerable. Dragons were hunted to near extinction and the few that remained went into seclusion or hiding, biding their time until Alduin, the World Eater, would return to wake his kin and retake Nirn.

In the 4th Era, Alduin leaves the Tiid-Ahraan, the time-wound and finds his kin dead. He brings them back to life so they might again follow he whose Thu'um is mightiest. None could have challenged him or his Dovah but then there was one who could. Dovahkiin, the last Dragonborn. A single mortal with a Thu'um strong enough to rival and beat Alduin. After that, the Dov likely stopped their invasion of Tamriel, while perhaps not their attacks on mortals. A balanced peace, for now.

So we have two time frames with dragons and they were nearly unstoppable. Was it because there was no Dragonborn or was it because there was Alduin? I'd bet it's a combination of both, and that's the important thing. You don't need a Dragonborn to kill dragons, you just need one to keep them from coming back. Dragonrend is mentioned, but that isn't required for your common no-name dragon right behind Whiterun, Rift, or wherever, especially with those "mightiest dragons" gone. Even guards in Skyrim can damage dragons if I remember correctly.

But let's all forget all this, because the far easier and far more plausible explanation why nothing is recorded in history (which is largely recorded by Imperials) is plain obvious and in everyone's sight: Abnur Tharn.

In the Third or Fourth Era, have you ever read about the Planemeld? No? Have you ever read about dragons in Elsweyr? No? Have you ever read about the failings of High Chancellor Abnur Tharn of the Empire under the rule of Valen Aquilarios? No? It's as if someone in a high position very adept at screwing things up while trying to do the right thing for the Empire made these recordings getting lost during the Interregnum. It was troubled times, you know?

VaranisArano

Smaxx wrote: »

In the Third or Fourth Era, have you ever read about the Planemeld? No? Have you ever read about dragons in Elsweyr? No? Have you ever read about the failings of High Chancellor Abnur Tharn of the Empire under the rule of Valen Aquilarios? No? It's as if someone in a high position very adept at screwing things up while trying to do the right thing for the Empire made these recordings getting lost during the Interregnum. It was troubled times, you know?

There's a lot of very powerful people/daedra with incentive to hide the extremely embarrassing deeds of the Vestige.
Molag Bal
The Daedric Triad
Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil
The Psijic Order, the Sapiarchs, practically all of the Summerset Isles
Mannimarco

Abnur is going to have plenty of allies if he proposes, "Hey, maybe if we all pretend this whole "Vestige" thing never happened..."

RinaldoGandolphi

Smaxx wrote: »

In the Third or Fourth Era, have you ever read about the Planemeld? No? Have you ever read about dragons in Elsweyr? No? Have you ever read about the failings of High Chancellor Abnur Tharn of the Empire under the rule of Valen Aquilarios? No? It's as if someone in a high position very adept at screwing things up while trying to do the right thing for the Empire made these recordings getting lost during the Interregnum. It was troubled times, you know?

The reason for this is because the events of ESO don't really take place in the way we think, and they do not exist in the Time Line after Tiber Septim re-lights the Dragonfires because the events of ESO are erased from the timeline.

ESO Exists in a sort of Paradox. The game literally screams this everywhere if you pay attention to the story. The only ones not effected by this Paradox are the Daedric Princes because their planes of Oblivion exist outside of Nirn. The only ones who even remember the events of the Interegnuum are the Daedric Princes.

The reason why the Interregnum period is shrouded in mystery has nothing to do with records being lost, it has to do with the Dragonfires being unlit for centuries, and Nirn being somewhat disconnected from time due to the Dragonfires not being lit.

Dragons, Dragonborn, and Akatosh are all uniquely connected to time in ways mortals don't understand. Evidence that time is all screwed up and is not passing in a normal manner in ESO can be seen by Hermaus Mora drawing in books from the future from the 3rd and 4th era by authors who haven't been born yet such as Last King of the Ayleids Herminia Cinna and Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls by Septimus Signus. Herma Mora does NOT have the ability to influence time on his own, that is outside his sphere of influence, but if linear time is all screwed up, as it is in ESO, well then opportunity opens up for Herma Mora to pull in these future books. Simply put, the Soulburst did more than just remove the barriers between Oblivion, it messed with the passage of time itself. The wayshrines actually allow you travel forward and backward in time. You can do the events of Imperial City before finishing the main quest because the waywhines allow time travel due to the state of Nirn at this time.

Herma Mora is taking advantage of the fact time is all screwed up to bring in all these books of knowledge from the future and adding them to his library because his plane of Oblivion is uneffected by such time changes so the knowledge would be preserved in his library on his plane of Oblivion.

When Tiber Septim re-lights the Dragonfires and shouts Cyrodiil from a jungle to what it is in Oblivion and ESO it was retro-active across the timelines. This is why Cyrodiil is not a jungle at the time of ESO when it should be. Talos used the Voice and Chim to retroactivly change things, he changed the Cyrodiil of both the past and the future with the Voice and Chim with some help from White Gold.


For whatever reason, when the Dragonfires are lit up again, Akatosh decides to erase the events of ESO....this is probably done because the Vestige borrows some of Akatosh's power to fight Molag Bal, and Akatosh can't reclaim this power with the timeline of ESO existing, and if he can't reclaim this power, then he would be unable to reach back into the past and reclaim his full power in order to be strong enough to defeat Mehrunes Dagon and end the Oblivion Crisis in the 3rdera. Remember, Akatosh knows far more about the future and time passage than any other being on Nirn.

The player will remember the events of ESO, in fact the Vestige him/herself may still exist in Coldharbor as a Soul Shriven thus not being erased by Akatosh, but the timeline on Nirn is probably altered....

perhaps the only Remanent of the Soulburst will be a lone book that was given to a Mage who visited Coldharbor in the 4th by a man.woman who claims they are a hero and want their memoirs published...much like a St. Jiib the Last Dragonborn ran into in the Soul Cairn in the 4th era....

Ogou

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Smaxx wrote: »

In the Third or Fourth Era, have you ever read about the Planemeld? No? Have you ever read about dragons in Elsweyr? No? Have you ever read about the failings of High Chancellor Abnur Tharn of the Empire under the rule of Valen Aquilarios? No? It's as if someone in a high position very adept at screwing things up while trying to do the right thing for the Empire made these recordings getting lost during the Interregnum. It was troubled times, you know?

ESO Exists in a sort of Paradox. The game literally screams this everywhere if you pay attention to the story.

Uh... Where? Examples?