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The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 4.3.4 is available. You can find the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459684/
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Let's talk About the PTS v4.3.2 Racial Passive Changes (Updated with PTS v4.3.2 data)

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Relax people, about half of my new parses are done and things seem fairly balanced, well till now. Except for one certain race in the stamina DD category. I will let you guys guess that one.

    Hrm, my guess is on orc. ^^
  • Incap_is_balanced
    Incap_is_balanced
    Soul Shriven
    I think you’re too much on the side of PVE. These changes will have an impact on dps tests and what not, but u can’t only talk about pve especially when you’re giving change suggestions on races. This game is more than trials, PVP and battlegrounds are also important to balance for and with some of your suggested changes, you’re not even thinking about pvp at all.

    And another thing, this game has many races and each should have their own unique thing to them, they should be balanced to all do around the same dps, and the same healing abilities and the same tanking abilities, then there might as well be 1 race. The different races should be better at some things like a dunmer was the best at magdk dps and in pvp for a more damage side because of flame damage. They got nerfed in that aspect which I don’t mind since every mag dps was a dunmer and that’s what zoos wanted to change, (magdk main btw)-so I’m not biased in the nerf. But back to the point, races in eso have more behind them making each unique so stop trying to make it so that a race gets out of nowhere changes just so the ppl who have a race that’s not top tier for a specific play style gets buffed. Because that’s what races offer... a different play style of the class you pick it with.

    Just think about that please.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    So you would nerf dunmer compared to 4.3.0 even though in all the parses we saw they where not top dps for stamina?

    And then revert the magic back to where it was before, despite pretty much acknowledging that magicka was struggling?

    And then just add back on that health bonus because literally Noone felt like it made sense for the race?
  • Aalahk
    Aalahk
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    Just to join in with the others: fantastic post.

    This is a well-reasoned, well-written discussion that presents facts, the problems and potential solutions. It should be a lesson on how to discuss up-coming changes instead of "this is crap, my class is dead! I hate you ZoS and the developers".
  • zaria
    zaria
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    As a follow-up... Parses made -before- current changes show difference between altmer and khajiit of 1.32%. Now, last patch have landed, altmers are nerfed, khajiits slightly buffed, and what's the difference on new parses? Right, 0.46% (0.1% on normalized parses). That's the price for such small sample size - and on that ground, OP is doing their conclusions. Statistical significance of such tests is nonexistent.

    P.S.: Ah, so it's even conjecture using previous testing... Then it's moot. Let us wait for parses from PTS, because it absolutely doesn't take max stat buffs from CPs into account.
    Also templar is an special class to test khajiit on because of Piercing Spear (Increase your Critical Damage by 10%)
    Easiest way to balance this is to change Piercing Spear as its clear ZoS don't want one race- one build like Dunmer magDK.

    And no reducing the crit damage flat will not remove the Khajiit benefit from Piercing Spear only reduce it.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
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    If this was reddit, I would put a gold medal.
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • ankeor
    ankeor
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    No.
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    As far as Khajiit's go, I do not think people realize how useless crit if in PVP. They will be very strong in PVE but not in PVP.

    On the flip side, Dunmer will be strong in magic and stam in pve and pvp and no one seems to care.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    You have Khajit with more stam sustain than Bosmer and the addition of Mag+Health recovery...

    You are over-valuing recovery amps and recovery performance compared to cost reduction and resource return not tied to recovery.

    You are also assuming everyone is Vampire and not only is that not the case, but vampire benefits will affect certain racials better than others. Players can choose vampirism but not without some drawbacks.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • hakan
    hakan
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    i hope they dont listen you about dunmer thing.
  • Browiseth
    Browiseth
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    Yes please to your suggested Argonian changes. I can't understand these devs sometimes; they say they want to mitigate the fact that all races are pidgeonholed into particular playstyles and yet...

    Still, Argonians have pretty limited benefit as a DPS playsyle. Altmer are still "the mage guys dps guys", redguards are still the "sword boys"

    I really have no words for how frustrating and baffling it is how this game and these devs handle races. It should not be this huge of a decision when making a character in my eyes.
    i stream eso here
    #argonianswimspeedpride
    #myracehadaweirdpassivebeforeitwascool
    zos pls buff
    zos you have a pts pls use it
    zos pls buff pt.2
    morrowind is not a good game but the expansion will probably be okay haha it ended up being really lame go figure, summerset is p good though
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    I like the idea of Altmer getting both stamina and magicka back for casting a class ability, but reducing the spell damage in half will put the nail in the coffin for altmer. I'd rather have no resource return at all then lose the spell power as an altmer.
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    Facefister wrote: »
    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"

    I know. People are freaking out over nothing.
  • Browiseth
    Browiseth
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    Azyle1 wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"

    I know. People are freaking out over nothing.

    Frankly I think people are focusing on the wrong thing, as they always have. Most only seem to care about how the changes affect them, individually, not the game as a whole. They only care if their race has been buffed or nerfed, when really we should all be focused on how these changes don't even follow ZOS's vision they claim to have.

    It's maddening.
    i stream eso here
    #argonianswimspeedpride
    #myracehadaweirdpassivebeforeitwascool
    zos pls buff
    zos you have a pts pls use it
    zos pls buff pt.2
    morrowind is not a good game but the expansion will probably be okay haha it ended up being really lame go figure, summerset is p good though
  • The_Yellow_King
    Browiseth wrote: »
    Yes please to your suggested Argonian changes. I can't understand these devs sometimes; they say they want to mitigate the fact that all races are pidgeonholed into particular playstyles and yet...

    Still, Argonians have pretty limited benefit as a DPS playsyle. Altmer are still "the mage guys dps guys", redguards are still the "sword boys"

    I really have no words for how frustrating and baffling it is how this game and these devs handle races. It should not be this huge of a decision when making a character in my eyes.

    I dont understand at all why they are removing healing received from argonian. That passive giving both was great for a warden tank in pve. Now it is like they want the only sustain to be choking trash potions. Move around 300 restore here, 1000 who cares lol. If you choke a trash health pot you still get back 11k health and about 4k stam and mag. Who really cares if they raise or lower that by 300 on either side.

    I want the healing received back for argonians to actually being able to warden tank end game. As of now, I'm changing to imperial or maybe nord.
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    Azyle1 wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"

    I know. People are freaking out over nothing.

    His parses practically proved that the mag/stam races are balanced well, ofcourse you need fine-tuning here and there but overall all those said races are extremely close to each other... unlike now.

    People literally freak out and plan a funereal for their race just because of 500~800 dps difference.
    Edited by Facefister on February 5, 2019 3:08PM
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Azyle1 wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"

    I know. People are freaking out over nothing.

    His parses practically proved that the mag/stam races are balanced well, ofcourse you need fine-tuning here and there but overall all those said races are extremely close to each other... unlike now.

    People literally freak out and plan a funereal for their race just because of 500~800 dps difference.

    I mean do not get me wrong, I hate mag and try not to play it when I can, but even I agree that the alter nerf is strange. That said... it isn't the end of the world. I played Khajiit when they were bad and I did just fine. People will live.

    (Talking about the Mechanical Acuity era )
  • Schattenfluegel
    Schattenfluegel
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    I believe that the redguard changes are an indirect buff to stamsorcs. Maybe you should think about it, because it addresses the biggest issues of stamsorc (sustain, no classsnareremove) without an pvp Impact and other classes wont be played with a redguard. Meta could be Khajit, Dunmer, Orc - but not RG.
  • ZarkingFrued
    ZarkingFrued
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    I vote yes to your proposed Orc changes
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Facefister wrote: »
    "~500 more dps"
    "KHAJIIT IS TOO STRONG"
    Add that this is an class who is naturally strong on Khajiit because templar has bonus damage to crit damage.
    For the other classes its more balanced.

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
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    awesome work

    Some questions:
    Did you adjust the rotation, food and build depending sustain passives?

    E.g get ~17k hp and just enough sustain to sustain
    Breton do not need spell symmetry as often or could use blue food...
    Builds with purple food may need more hp and so on

    in my opinion Breton will most likely come out on top with all that and the get the insane spell resistance which is reallynice in trial
  • Anoregon
    Anoregon
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    While some people will argue that Argonians shouldn't be a DPS race, I do not believe races should be shoehorned into completely separate roles without overlap either. These changes will make sure that Argonians are in a healthy middle ground with everything they do without being overly powerful in one single thing.

    Couldn't agree more. The most disappointing thing about these racial bonus changes overall is the fact that they aren't doing nearly enough to move beyond the idea that certain races are the "correct" choice for certain roles in the game, and the wrong choice for others. Even if the difference ends up being 5% or less, it's still inherently flawed design and provides very little, if any benefit given the negative impact it has on player choice/freedom.
  • BlackMadara
    BlackMadara
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    Nice write up. I understand that you are viewing this from an end game pvp perspective, but I feel that ZoS is thinking from a bigger picture. This is why their race stat distribution is for overall stats, and not focused on a specific role for a specific portion of the game
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
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    Browiseth wrote: »
    Yes please to your suggested Argonian changes. I can't understand these devs sometimes; they say they want to mitigate the fact that all races are pidgeonholed into particular playstyles and yet...

    Still, Argonians have pretty limited benefit as a DPS playsyle. Altmer are still "the mage guys dps guys", redguards are still the "sword boys"

    I really have no words for how frustrating and baffling it is how this game and these devs handle races. It should not be this huge of a decision when making a character in my eyes.

    I dont understand at all why they are removing healing received from argonian. That passive giving both was great for a warden tank in pve. Now it is like they want the only sustain to be choking trash potions. Move around 300 restore here, 1000 who cares lol. If you choke a trash health pot you still get back 11k health and about 4k stam and mag. Who really cares if they raise or lower that by 300 on either side.

    I want the healing received back for argonians to actually being able to warden tank end game. As of now, I'm changing to imperial or maybe nord.

    I've seen some sweet suggestions on the forum for Argonian racials
    +15% Restoration Staff XP
    +50% Swimming Speed
    Immunity to the Diseased status effect
    +2310 Disease Resistance
    +0 Max Health (removed)
    +1000 Max Magicka
    +1000 Max Stamina
    +3% Healing Done
    +3% Healing Received
    +120 Spell Damage and Weapon Damage for 5 seconds after receiving direct healing.
    Restore 3600 Health/Magicka/Stamina over 40s after drinking a potion. This effect cannot occur more than once every 45s.
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Zer0oo wrote: »
    awesome work

    Some questions:
    Did you adjust the rotation, food and build depending sustain passives?

    E.g get ~17k hp and just enough sustain to sustain
    Breton do not need spell symmetry as often or could use blue food...
    Builds with purple food may need more hp and so on

    in my opinion Breton will most likely come out on top with all that and the get the insane spell resistance which is reallynice in trial

    All of my data collection methodologies can be found in my other thread here.

    And kind of; I didn't care for 17k HP; most raiders in the end-game are good enough to survive on 15k HP, and tanks typically wear Ebon Armory to bring that up to 16k anyways.

    All of the parses were done on Clockwork Citrus Filet with the exception of Bretons, which was done on blue food. The backbar enchantment was the Berserker glyph, rather than Absorb Magicka, in order to help highlight any sustain advantages. In the end, Argonian, Khajiit, and Altmer did not need to cast Spell Symmetry, Dunmer and Breton needed to cast it once, and the Nord had to cast it twice.
    You have Khajit with more stam sustain than Bosmer and the addition of Mag+Health recovery...

    You are over-valuing recovery amps and recovery performance compared to cost reduction and resource return not tied to recovery.

    You are also assuming everyone is Vampire and not only is that not the case, but vampire benefits will affect certain racials better than others. Players can choose vampirism but not without some drawbacks.

    My bad, this is not intended. I actually overlooked Khajiit when trying to change my suggestions for Bosmer after realizing that Recovery is boosted by %.

    I've edited my post to update my proposal. Appreciate the heads up.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 5, 2019 5:11PM
  • Steelshiv
    Steelshiv
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    Thank you op for providing data, an explaination, your thoughts, and potential changes. Some of your suggestions which I agree with and others i disagree with.

    I only closely read the parts of the post regarding Magicka races because all of my characters are Magicka based. I think that Bretons and Khajiit are too powerful this round. Breton gets a resistance buff, sustain buff, and resource pool buff. Khajiit get a resource pool buff, sustain buff, and a situational utility buff. Altmer get a utility buff (yes, I consider the sustain buff change a utility buff...I do not need more stamina as a magsorc.) a resource pool buff, and a damage buff (which is useless without sustain).

    In any case, I'm using one of my free race change tokens to switch from altmer to Breton if these changes go live as they are. The sustain, resource pool, and resistance for having a status magical status effect (which is more common that you might think in Cyrodiil, where many players use trials weapons) is so much better than what altmer is given.

    Thank you again OP for providing good feedback, many just rant and rave (myself included) about how much they hate the changes without saying why.
  • Dr.NRG
    Dr.NRG
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    Thank god that i dont care about pve anymore lol
    .
  • Korvadiel
    Korvadiel
    That would be so much more constructive if people were to discuss the latest changes on pre-existing threads whose authors will have backed up their claims as well as their following conclusions already with substantial datas, beginning with this particular worthy one.


    This wild wish put aside, well computed sir op.
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