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Let's talk About the PTS v4.3.2 Racial Passive Changes (Updated with PTS v4.3.2 data)

HatchetHaro
HatchetHaro
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EDIT 1 1:44am EST, 2/5/2019: @JobooAGS has pointed out that I've overlooked the Recovery % bonuses that will scale all the flat Recovery values up by a significant amount. From that, I've rebalanced the numbers a little.
EDIT 2 12:11pm EST, 2/5/2019: Forgot to tweak Khajiiti numbers in EDIT 1. Now fixed. Also clarified that the numbers above come from data collected during PTS 4.3.1.
UPDATE 1 2/10/2019: I have completed the exact same Magplar parsing regimen on PTS v4.3.2, and have updated all of the numbers according to my findings. The alleged new CP scaling was also non-existent on the PTS, so I am not able to comment on what the changes would actually be like. None of my suggestions and opinions have changed; my testing data only reinforced them.

Intro

Just earlier today, ZOS released the patch notes for the upcoming 4.3.2 Wrathstone patch on the PTS. Unfortunately, the PTS is currently still offline, so I am unable to collect real data as of this hour. However, I believe I am still qualified to offer a reliable opinion based on my experience as an end-game raider and also from the loads of data from all of my testing done on previous PTS patches.

UPDATE 1: I have the 4.3.2 parsing DATAAAAAA.

As a disclaimer, I am going to cover these changes from the perspective of a Magicka DPS and Tank main; my experience with Healing is limited, and it has been a long time since I've used my Stamina DPS in trials, so my opinions on those roles should be taken with a grain of salt.

Previous Testing

Before I start, I am going to post these charts here of my testing done on PTS 4.3.2.
Done on the exact same rotations (with a script) save for a cast of Spell Symmetry or two on Magicka Templars on the 6mil Target Skeleton, as well as normalizing all the lucky and unlucky Critical Hits to the proper Critical Chance those builds should have, these are currently the most accurate numbers I have on the performance that Magicka DPS have.
y2yEmNi.png

I understand that Magicka Templars have 10% extra Critical Damage. For your consideration, here I have calculated the parses with 10% lower Critical Damage.
31u2fMq.png

The rest of the relevant data can be found in my PTS testing documentation thread that I've linked above.

Onwards.

Opinions, Rants, and Suggested Changes

Real quick, let's talk about the Shadow Mundus.
Mundus Stones
  • Shadow Mundus: Increased the Critical Hit Damage bonus to 13% from 9%. Note that this still will not affect critical healing.
The Shadow Mundus should not be buffed, at least, either not this much, or not until Khajiits get a nerf in their Crit.

Let's take the numbers up top. I've taken those parses and converted the numbers to use the Shadow Stone rather than the Thief stone. With 3 Infused body pieces, the Critical Chance is lowered by 9.1% and the Critical Damage is increased by 16.9%.

Here are the parses for Shadow Mundus change.
6M0qEWk.png
Just to clarify, these are purely calculated as if I had the exact same parsing gear on; the numbers would evidently be a bit more different if I had put on different gear, such as Mother's Sorrow.

However, I am confident that the buff to the Shadow Mundus tips the balance too far in favor of Khajiiti.

Altmer
  • High Elf
    • Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.
First of all, Altmer are already really powerful on live when it comes to Magicka DPS, and probably deserve a nerf. However, I feel that Spell Recharge was a really good passive for what it does; it was essentially 75 Magicka per second in all of my testing, and works really well for their Magicka kit without being overbearingly sustainable like Bretons are.

This change does not make sense. Not only is a restoration to your lowest maximum resource counter-intuitive to what, well, everything is supposed to be in here, it is also entirely useless. If something is draining their Magicka, they don't want Stamina regen, and if you actually do want the Stamina regen, you're probably playing the Altmer on Stamina and you'd get the Magicka regen instead. The only situation I think this passive could be useful in any stretch of the imagination is for tanking, where you want high Stamina pools and high Magicka regen, and even then that is a stretch.

How I would change Altmer at this point:
  • Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or and Stamina , based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
  • Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
  • Elemental Talent: Increases your Spell Damage by 258 129.

Altmer are already too powerful; this should bring that down a little. However, they would still be among the top for Magicka DPS. The slight buff to their utility in terms of dual stat restoration should still be a healthy amount to assist in utility roles without being overbearingly powerful.

Argonian
  • Argonian
    • Life Mender: Increased the Healing Done bonus to 6% from 4%.
    • Resourceful: Increased the Health, Magicka, and Stamina restore from drinking a potion to 4000 from 3620. 
Argonians have had a ton of utility before the PTS, and that was nerfed down by quite a lot. Personally, I feel those nerfs were justified; Argonian sustain at that point felt fair, and they still feel good to play without being overly powerful in terms of utility. Honestly, I felt they were close enough for the utility roles and PvP, so yes, the nerfs to Argonians were great. What I did not like, however, was the lack of buffs to them, especially in terms of their damage-dealing ability. They are close to rock-bottom when it comes to Magicka DPS, and is actually at the bottom for Stamina DPS. With the new changes as well, they are overshadowed by other races not only in terms of damage, but in other roles as well; Nords and Imperials become better at Tanking, and Breton sustain makes them far superior to Argonians for Healing.

Here is the issue: Argonians do not need more utility; they have enough to keep them decent at utility roles. Not only is the Healing Done bonus actually useless, because one really does not need extra healing especially in raids, it is also a passive that shoehorns Argonians into a Healing role without giving them anything for other types of utility.

How I would change Argonians at this point:
  • Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 1000. Restore 4000 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
  • Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
  • Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done and Received by 6% 2.5%. Upon receiving Healing, gain 129 Weapon and Spell Damage for 5 seconds.

While some people will argue that Argonians shouldn't be a DPS race, I do not believe races should be shoehorned into completely separate roles without overlap either. These changes will make sure that Argonians are in a healthy middle ground with everything they do without being overly powerful in one single thing.
I've nerfed the Healing Done and given them a tiny bit of Healing Received back, because in reality, any Healer has more than enough healing for any group and are more focused on giving their groups damage and utility buffs, but Tanks also need something for themselves. Besides, and loss in Healing Done can be made back up with their additional Spell Damage.
There's also the part where they have to receive healing in order to gain the Weapon and Spell Damage; this way, they have to ensure that they are continuously receiving healing in order to get that damage buff. In the end, even with these damage-based buffs, their damage will still be lower than Dunmer, and their sustain will still pale in comparison to Bretons. Their overall utility would still be nerfed compared to Live, but a decent amount of it would still be there to make them feel good to play on.

Bosmer
  • Wood Elf
    • Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration. 
I don't feel I am qualified enough on Stamina now to make an educated opinion on this; however, based on what I know from my past experience as an end-game Stamina DPS main, I think Bosmer are close to being in a healthy place right now in terms of Stamina DPS, though are very much lacking in other roles. I think the Physical and Spell Penetration for 3 seconds after using Roll Dodge is interesting, but it is too situational and the duration is too low to be useful in PvE. Rather, I think Bosmer deserve a bit more love when it comes to their effectiveness in other roles, especially when they are already overshadowed by Dunmer, Orcs, Khajiit, and Redguards when it comes to Stamina DPS.

EDIT 1: It has been brought to my attention that the Stamina Recovery Bosmer have is much more than it seems; typical Stamina Recovery % increases range between 72% (stamDK setup) up to even 92% (stamSorc setup) and perhaps higher. Taking that same stamSorc setup, they have about 87 Stamina per second recovered at the top-end on Live, and now on the PTS they can have up to 248 Stamina restored per second. That's actually kinda insane.

How I would change Bosmer at this point:
  • Y’ffre’s Endurance: Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258 129.
  • Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
  • Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Weapon and Spell Critical with Ranged Abilities by 3%. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 3 seconds , and increases Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for the duration.

I don't believe the Physical and Spell Penetration is useful at all. It's far too situational for PvE, and could prove to be too powerful in PvP (though I don't have enough experience in PvP to have much of a say here). Rather, I've decided to capitalize on the Bosmer's legacy of legendary marksmanship with the increase to Weapon and Spell Crit on Ranged Abilities, which can also include healing abilities.

Honestly, really, I don't know. I don't know enough about the current state of Stamina DPS to make proper judgement; you guys decide.

EDIT 1: Just to update with newer numbers, I've also nerfed their Stamina Recovery down; this will still keep them at among the top in terms of Sustain for all Stamina DDs.

Breton
  • Breton
    • Spell Attunement: The Spell Resistance granted by this effect will now be doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. 
This change is interesting, though I would need to see it in practice to give a proper opinion. However, I do have a very, very strong opinion about their sustain.

Right now, on PTS 4.3.2, the Magicka Mastery passive on Bretons means that they can replace a Clockwork Citrus Filet with a blue bi-stat Health+Magicka food in order to have the exact same sustain as Dunmer, which any and all Breton Magicka DPS would definitely do. After all, just replacing that food means a whopping additional 1.5k extra Magicka (before buffs) to play with, so in total 1.75 times as much Magicka as an Altmer. That, however, is not inherently an issue; with that much sustain, they become the ultimate Healers, because let's be real here, in proper play, Healers already have more than enough Healing to cover the group; it is being able to sustain that Healing that already make Bretons ever-so-slightly more desirable than Argonians for that role on Live, and so much more desireable than Argonians for that role with these changes.

How I would change Bretons at this point:
  • Gift of Magnus: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000 2250.
  • Spell Resistance: Gain 2310 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.
  • Magicka Mastery: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7% 3%.

They already have 100 Magicka Recovery (EDIT: really 164 - 179, depending on the class). They don't need an additional 320 from that 7% Magicka cost reduction (and that's just on a DPS role). Bringing that 7% down to 3% would make them still more sustainable than Altmer in a DPS role but not by an insane amount (Altmer have effectively 160 Magicka Recovery with their Spell Recharge, and Bretons would have 300 with these proposed changes), and also still more sustainable than Argonians to be better for sustained Healing.

EDIT 1: Just to balance out that sustain loss, I've also given them about 250 more Max Magicka to boost their damage slightly.

Dunmer
  • Dark Elf
    • Dynamic: Increased the Max Magicka and Stamina granted to 1875 from 1250.
    • Resist Flame: Removed the Max Health bonus from this passive. 
Okay, ZOS, you need to stop.
Dunmer absolutely do not need both their Magicka and Stamina damage to be so close to the top. Pick one. Because right now, even on PTS 4.3.1, they are dealing very respectable Magicka damage, and from what I've read in other raiding Discords, Dunmer are on par with Orcs and Khajiit in terms of Stamina DPS.

UPDATE 1: Just so happens, they are now on par with Altmer with a difference of only 125 Magicka between them.

The thing is that I liked most of the Dunmer changes for 4.3.0; they nerfed their Magicka ability and gave them a buff to Stamina, which makes them a great hybrid race, good for either Stamina or Magicka, without being a master at both. However, those changes, while healthy for their Magicka Damage ability, also made them slightly too good for Stamina.

How I would change Dunmer at this point:
  • Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875. Increases your Max Stamina by 750 and your Max Magicka by 1250.
  • Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
  • Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

I'm going to be honest here, Dunmer are already really healthy in terms of damage for PTS 4.3.1, and on top of that they get a boost to their Max Health. They are already very potent damage-dealers, and they don't need to be buffed further. With these changes here, all I did compared to PTS 4.3.1 was bring down their Max Stamina a bit to bring their Stamina DPS down slightly.

Imperial
  • Imperial
    • Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of Block and Bash by 5%.
Know what? This is a great change! Numbers can be tweaked, but I believe that this is a great direction to take the Red Diamond passive in; this will also make them somewhat decent at Stamina DPS as well with the additional Stamina sustain.

How I would change Imperials at this point:
None for now. Seriously, I like the direction they are going in.

Khajiit
  • Khajiit
    • Lunar Blessings: Increased the Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina bonuses to 825 from 750. 
    • Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m. 
    • Robustness: Increased the Magicka and Stamina Recovery bonuses to 85 from 75.
The big issue here is that Khajiiti do not need additional buffs to their damage. Right now, they are at the absolute top of the Magicka DPS stack, and is the same way for Stamina DPS. Again, just like it is for Dunmer, pick one.

UPDATE 1: Yup. Their damage has been unnecessarily buffed.

Khajiiti have hands down the best Magicka DPS on PTS 4.3.2, and even more so when Major Force is provided in raids. I honestly really like the idea of Khajiiti being able to crit more, but with the many different sources of additional Critical Damage and the way it is handled differently on different classes, it makes Khajiiti too strong.

How I would change Khajiiti at this point:
  • Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 85 150 75.
  • Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 825 750.
  • Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8% 6%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

Not much to say here. They absolutely did not need the resource buff. They needed a slight nerf to their Magicka DPS capabilities enough to bring their damage-dealing capabilities down below Altmer, but still high enough to still be really potent at Magicka and Stamina DPS. I've given them some additional resource regen as well to counteract that slightly and make sure they have the Stamina sustain necessary to remain good at Stamina DPS.

EDIT 2: Forgot to tweak Khajiiti sustain numbers during my EDIT 1. I've brought it down to 75; it was actually almost on par with Argonians in terms of sustain at 85, and Argonians should definitely have more sustain than Khajiit.

Nord
  • Nords
No changes to Nords; color me surprised. Let's talk Nords, then.

The biggest thing to jump out at me about Nords is their new Ultimate regen. As a raider, you know how much I love those Warhorn damage buffs, and the raiders around me like them too. I've checked the raiding Discord servers I'm in, and the general opinion is that no race should have Ultimate regen as a thing. In fact, people have already theorized Nord healers simply because of that Ulti-gen (also says something about the Healer role; they're about keeping the team alive and buffs, not pumping out insane amounts of healing). Just checking the numbers on the current iteration of Nords, I am inclined to agree, because it is really useful for scorepushing.

Rather, I would like to see Nords have a bit more sustain to give them more of a slight edge in DPS as well as raw Tanking.

How I would change Nords at this point:
  • Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take or deal damage, you gain 5 Ultimate restore 1000 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
  • Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
  • Rugged: Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

I think Nords deserve some love, I really do, but Ultimate regeneration is probably not the best idea. Rather, here, I've decided to give them a bit more capability as a Stamina damage-dealer that can also benefit them when tanking. That is effectively 100 Stamina restored per second at the maximum, but it is not as good as Bosmer, yet still better Stamina sustain than what Argonians have.

Orc
  • Orc
    • Brawny: This passive now grants 2000 Max Stamina instead of 500 Health and 500 Stamina.
    • Unflinching Rage: This passive now grants 1000 Max Health and heals you for up to 600 when you deal damage with a weapon, with a 4 second cooldown. Previously, it granted 4% Healing Taken, and 380 Stamina and Health when dealing damage with a weapon.
Let's be real here: they really do not need the damage buff from that extra Stamina. They were already at the top, and they don't need any more of it. Besides, the Unflinching Rage passive here is basically just a weaker version of the old Red Diamond from Imperials, which, as we all know, has been the worst racial passive for a long time.

Honestly, I think Orcs were good enough for 4.3.1. They had a great amount of Weapon Damage to complement their Stamina DPS capabilities, and had a good amount of sustain to keep them on par with Dunmer for Stamina DPS.

How I would change Orcs at this point:
  • Brawny: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.
  • Unflinching: Increases your Max Health by 1000. When you deal damage with a weapon, you restore 600 Health. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds Increases your Healing Received by 4%. When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 320 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
  • Swift Warrior: Increases your Weapon Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.

All in all, no big changes compared to 4.3.1; seriously, those changes were good. I'd say Orcs were even overperforming slightly in terms of their Stamina sustain from Unflinching, so I brought that down a bit, but otherwise, it was really good before 4.3.2.

Redguard
  • Redguard
    • Martial Training: Added a bonus that reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
I'm going to say that I'm fine with this one change. It looks pretty nice for PvP and doesn't seem to be stupidly overpowered. However, I have some things to say about Redguards as a whole.

Oh boy, Redguards. Let's be honest here, they've been kings of Stamina DPS for a really long time due to their insane sustain; seriously, Adrenaline Rush on Live is equivalent to chugging a crafted Stamina potion on cooldown. Here's the issue: they absolutely do not need more sustain, but that is what ZOS did for their PTS 4.3.0 changes: give Redguards more sustain. The thing is that I'm fine with the mechanics of how that sustain was achieved; the numbers are just off, way off.
Let's just take their Adrenaline Rush passive in its PTS form: "When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds." This is basically 190 Stamina restored per second, or 380 Stamina recovery, twice what Orcs have. In comparison, the Artaeum Takeaway Broth is 319 Stamina recovery, or 159.5 Stamina every second. Even if you replace the Artaeum Takeaway Broth that most other DDs would be using for blue bi-stat food, they would still have that additional 60 Stamina restored per second compared to no racial passives, which is more than what Khajiit have, and I still haven't even factored in their 8% cost reduction on Weapon Abilities.

EDIT 1: Turns out PTS Bosmer has more sustain. 248 Stamina per second, to be exact.

How I would change Redguards at this point:
  • Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
  • Conditioning: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
  • Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 750 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

They would still be Stamina sustain kings, but at least this time it's not as insane; they'd still have more sustain than Bosmer, but in turn Bosmer would have a tiny bit more damage.

Champion System
Champion System
  • Updated the calculation with your Maximum Health, Magicka, and Stamina interacting with modifiers to better reflect the 20% increase to these stats from your first 100 points spent into each tree of the Champion Point system. Previously, this 20% only applied to your base stats, attributes, enchantments, and 2 through 4 piece bonuses on item sets. After this change, all sources of flat stat increases will be affected. Consumable food and drinks, 5 piece bonuses from item sets, and passives will now be properly affected by the 20% increase.
Not much to say here other than that it's going to increase the damage difference between races even more. I'm not going to say that this mechanic change is entirely a bad thing, though; any differences can be more easily fine-tuned through the individual racial passives.

What this also means is power creep. Not a good thing, but as long as racial passives are tuned to lower effectiveness, I'd say it balances out.

Closing Thoughts

I had high hopes for ZOS when it came to the new Racial Passive changes, and mostly they delivered; I was honestly happy with the direction ZOS was going in for their 4.3.0 changes. However, there were still some caveats to those changes, such as tipping the balance way too much with the Khajiiti buffs and not buffing Argonian damage.

The main issue I find with the 4.3.0 changes was that ZOS decided to balance them "mathematically", comparing them to set bonuses. The problem here is that the maths aren't right; the maths only apply to the overall changes regardless of roles, without regard for how they stack up when focusing on the stats for each role.

Another issue is this intense focus on shoehorning a certain race into certain roles, such as Argonians into the Healing role and Nords and Imperials into the Tanking role, without regard to the lack of overall effective ceiling both these utility-based roles have compared to the obvious effective ceilings in the Damage-Dealing role. To demonstrate this point, there are a lot of really effective end-game Tanks in non-meta races; I personally know a great Tank who runs a Bosmer, an amazing Healer who runs an Orc, and you all know Woeler, who runs a Khajiit Tank. This is because what determines a good Tank or Healer is mainly player skill, not racial passives, and in the end, an amazing player can Tank just as effectively on an Altmer as they can on an Argonian, with Alkosh and Engulfing uptimes and everything. On the contrary, there is a ceiling to Damage-Dealing that is affected by racial passives; whatever damage a player can pull off on an Argonian would always be higher if they switched to a Dunmer.

Unfortunately, it will always be this difference in damage-dealing, not utility, that ultimately affects players. I have been denied entry into groups, and even kicked out of certain progression groups, simply because I play Argonian DDs, even though I have repeatedly demonstrated my ability to pull respectable DPS despite my racial choice, and even proven myself to be extremely capable at the trial's mechanics.

Fact of the matter is that this elitism bleeds out from the end-game community, especially with respected players (you know who) making racial recommendations in their guides saying "this is the best race for this build" that would eventually seep down through to the more casual community, resulting in people who don't know better in dungeons flaming their peers for not running BiS race DDs and blaming them for the group's lacklustre DPS. And on the other end of the spectrum, I've seen end-game raiders being kicked out of groups simply because they run a Khajiit rather than a Redguard Stamplar.

To be quite honest here, these racial passives are forcing people to run something that is considered "BiS" for the tinest competitive edge rather than letting them run what they like, and ultimately it ruins the enjoyment of the game for the many of us who have built an identity on the races we love and are attached to in the Elder Scrolls franchise. I am of the opinion that racial passives actually need to be completely overhauled to provide anyone who wants them with the same bonuses, not because I want to break the Elder Scrolls lore or anything, but because the gameplay needs it. However, I do not believe such a system will be implemented any time soon in ESO.

So this is the best I can offer for now, something that will at least decrease the damage gap. Besides, ZOS has stated that one of the goals of these racial passive changes would be to "give multiple effective options for any given gameplay role" when selecting a race, and that "the combat power provided by each race should be more equalized", and while some of the changes did achieve that, there were certain shortcomings with what they had in PTS 4.3.1, and certain changes in PTS 4.3.2 completely nullify all of those goals.

I will continue to monitor future PTS changes and continue updating the data in my thread here.
Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 9:53PM
  • bardx86
    bardx86
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    Intro

    Just earlier today, ZOS released the patch notes for the upcoming 4.3.2 Wrathstone patch on the PTS. Unfortunately, the PTS is currently still offline, so I am unable to collect real data as of this hour. However, I believe I am still qualified to offer a reliable opinion based on my experience as an end-game raider and also from the loads of data from all of my testing done on previous PTS patches.

    As a disclaimer, I am going to cover these changes from the perspective of a Magicka DPS and Tank main; my experience with Healing is limited, and it has been a long time since I've used my Stamina DPS in trials, so my opinions on those roles should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Previous Testing

    Before I start, I am going to post this chart here.
    Done on the exact same rotations (with a script) save for a cast of Spell Symmetry or two on Magicka Templars on the 6mil Target Skeleton, as well as normalizing all the lucky and unlucky Critical Hits to the proper Critical Chance those builds should have, these are currently the most accurate numbers I have on the performance that Magicka DPS have.
    pjmPlke.png

    I understand that Magicka Templars have 10% extra Critical Damage. For your consideration, here I have calculated the parses with 10% lower Critical Damage.
    7iklBVx.png

    The rest of the relevant data can be found in my PTS testing documentation thread that I've linked above.

    Onwards.

    Opinions, Rants, and Suggested Changes

    Real quick, let's talk about the Shadow Mundus.
    Mundus Stones
    • Shadow Mundus: Increased the Critical Hit Damage bonus to 13% from 9%. Note that this still will not affect critical healing.
    The Shadow Mundus should not be buffed, at least, either not this much, or not until Khajiits get a nerf in their Crit.

    Let's take the numbers up top. I've taken those parses and converted the numbers to use the Shadow Stone rather than the Thief stone. With 3 Infused body pieces, the Critical Chance is lowered by 9.1% and the Critical Damage is increased by 11.7% for PTS 4.3.1 and 16.9% for PTS 4.3.2.

    Here are the parses for before the Shadow Mundus change.
    8yzMzlq.png
    And here are the ones after.
    Y10OCDP.png

    So, not only does the buff to the Shadow Mundus tip the balance too far in favor of Khajiiti, but it also doesn't really do anything for other races compared to the Thief Mundus. And keep in mind, this is using PTS 4.3.1 numbers; we haven't even gotten to the Khajiiti buffs yet.

    Altmer
    • High Elf
      • Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.
        Developer Comment:
        The main focus of High Elves are their ability to deal high amounts of damage or healing with Magicka-based abilities, and this sustain passive was helping them stand ahead of too many other races that also deal heavily with Magicka-based abilities. We've shifted this over to a utility passive, and slightly increased it.
    First of all, Altmer are already really powerful on live when it comes to Magicka DPS, and probably deserve a nerf. However, I feel that Spell Recharge was a really good passive for what it does; it was essentially 75 Magicka per second in all of my testing, and works really well for their Magicka kit without being overbearingly sustainable like Bretons are.

    This change does not make sense. Not only is a restoration to your lowest maximum resource counter-intuitive to what, well, everything is supposed to be in here, it is also entirely useless. If something is draining their Magicka, they don't want Stamina regen, and if you actually do want the Stamina regen, you're probably playing the Altmer on Stamina and you'd get the Magicka regen instead. The only situation I think this passive could be useful in any stretch of the imagination is for tanking, where you want high Stamina pools and high Magicka regen, and even then that is a stretch.

    How I would change Altmer at this point:
    • Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or and Stamina , based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
    • Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
    • Elemental Talent: Increases your Spell Damage by 258 129.

    Altmer are already too powerful; this should bring that down a little. However, they would still be among the top for Magicka DPS. The slight buff to their utility in terms of dual stat restoration should still be a healthy amount to assist in utility roles without being overbearingly powerful.

    Argonian
    • Argonian
      • Life Mender: Increased the Healing Done bonus to 6% from 4%.
      • Resourceful: Increased the Health, Magicka, and Stamina restore from drinking a potion to 4000 from 3620. 
        Developer Comment:
        After the adjustment to allow flat stats to scale better with CP, we wanted to improve some of the bonuses of Argonians so they could keep up. We targeted their Healing Done bonus to help make it feel more impactful for their identity as strong healers, and their Resourceful passive to help highlight their ability to stay in the fray.
    Argonians have had a ton of utility before the PTS, and that was nerfed down by quite a lot. Personally, I feel those nerfs were justified; Argonian sustain at that point felt fair, and they still feel good to play without being overly powerful in terms of utility. Honestly, I felt they were close enough for the utility roles and PvP, so yes, the nerfs to Argonians were great. What I did not like, however, was the lack of buffs to them, especially in terms of their damage-dealing ability. They are close to rock-bottom when it comes to Magicka DPS, and is actually at the bottom for Stamina DPS. With the new changes as well, they are overshadowed by other races not only in terms of damage, but in other roles as well; Nords and Imperials become better at Tanking, and Breton sustain makes them far superior to Argonians for Healing.

    Here is the issue: Argonians do not need more utility; they have enough to keep them decent at utility roles. Not only is the Healing Done bonus actually useless, because one really does not need extra healing especially in raids, it is also a passive that shoehorns Argonians into a Healing role without giving them anything for other types of utility.

    How I would change Argonians at this point:
    • Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 1000. Restore 4000 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
    • Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
    • Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done and Received by 6% 2.5%. Upon receiving Healing, gain 129 Weapon and Spell Damage for 5 seconds.

    While some people will argue that Argonians shouldn't be a DPS race, I do not believe races should be shoehorned into completely separate roles without overlap either. These changes will make sure that Argonians are in a healthy middle ground with everything they do without being overly powerful in one single thing.
    I've nerfed the Healing Done and given them a tiny bit of Healing Received back, because in reality, any Healer has more than enough healing for any group and are more focused on giving their groups damage and utility buffs, but Tanks also need something for themselves. Besides, and loss in Healing Done can be made back up with their additional Spell Damage.
    There's also the part where they have to receive healing in order to gain the Weapon and Spell Damage; this way, they have to ensure that they are continuously receiving healing in order to get that damage buff. In the end, even with these damage-based buffs, their damage will still be lower than Dunmer, and their sustain will still pale in comparison to Bretons. Their overall utility would still be nerfed compared to Live, but a decent amount of it would still be there to make them feel good to play on.

    Bosmer
    • Wood Elf
      • Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration. 
        Developer Comment:
        We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
    I don't feel I am qualified enough on Stamina now to make an educated opinion on this; however, based on what I know from my past experience as an end-game Stamina DPS main, I think Bosmer are close to being in a healthy place right now in terms of Stamina DPS, though are very much lacking in other roles. I think the Physical and Spell Penetration for 3 seconds after using Roll Dodge is interesting, but it is too situational and the duration is too low to be useful in PvE. Rather, I think Bosmer deserve a bit more love when it comes to their effectiveness in other roles, especially when they are already overshadowed by Dunmer, Orcs, Khajiit, and Redguards when it comes to Stamina DPS.

    How I would change Bosmer at this point:
    • Y’ffre’s Endurance: Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
    • Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
    • Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Weapon and Spell Critical with Ranged Abilities by 3%. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 3 seconds , and increases Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for the duration.

    I don't believe the Physical and Spell Penetration is useful at all. It's far too situational for PvE, and could prove to be too powerful in PvP (though I don't have enough experience in PvP to have much of a say here). Rather, I've decided to capitalize on the Bosmer's legacy of legendary marksmanship with the increase to Weapon and Spell Crit on Ranged Abilities, which can also include healing abilities.

    Honestly, really, I don't know. I don't know enough about the current state of Stamina DPS to make proper judgement; you guys decide.

    Breton
    • Breton
      • Spell Attunement: The Spell Resistance granted by this effect will now be doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. 
        Developer Comment:
        While Bretons had been brought up to speed with our other races with our first round of changes, we still felt the story or unique element to be missing. We added a small contextual flavor bonus on their Spell Attunement passive to help highlight their ability to shrug off magical attacks.
    This change is interesting, though I would need to see it in practice to give a proper opinion. However, I do have a very, very strong opinion about Bretons as they are now on PTS 4.3.1.

    Right now, on PTS 4.3.1, the Magicka Mastery passive on Bretons means that they can replace a Clockwork Citrus Filet with a blue bi-stat Health+Magicka food in order to have the exact same sustain as Dunmer, which any and all Breton Magicka DPS would definitely do. After all, just replacing that food means a whopping additional 1.5k extra Magicka (before buffs) to play with, so in total 1.75 times as much Magicka as an Altmer. That, however, is not inherently an issue; with that much sustain, they become the ultimate Healers, because let's be real here, in proper play, Healers already have more than enough Healing to cover the group; it is being able to sustain that Healing that already make Bretons ever-so-slightly more desirable than Argonians for that role on Live, and so much more desireable than Argonians for that role with these changes.

    How I would change Bretons at this point:
    • Gift of Magnus: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
    • Spell Resistance: Gain 2310 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.
    • Magicka Mastery: Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7% 3%.

    They already have 100 Magicka Recovery. They don't need an additional 320 from that 7% Magicka cost reduction (and that's just on a DPS role). Bringing that 7% down to 3% would make them still more sustainable than Altmer in a DPS role but not by an insane amount (Altmer have effectively 160 Magicka Recovery with their Spell Recharge, and Bretons would have 240 with these proposed changes), and also still more sustainable than Argonians to be better for sustained Healing.

    Dunmer
    • Dark Elf
      • Dynamic: Increased the Max Magicka and Stamina granted to 1875 from 1250.
      • Resist Flame: Removed the Max Health bonus from this passive. 
        Developer Comment:
        Previously, the adjustments to Dark Elves deviated a little too far from their original implementation and we noticed we can still highlight the race's identity of duality in blade and magic without their Max Health, so we removed it in place for returning power to their other flat stats.
    Okay, ZOS, you need to stop.
    Dunmer absolutely do not need both their Magicka and Stamina damage to be so close to the top. Pick one. Because right now, even on PTS 4.3.1, they are dealing very respectable Magicka damage, and from what I've read in other raiding Discords, Dunmer are on par with Orcs and Khajiit in terms of Stamina DPS.

    The thing is that I liked most of the Dunmer changes for 4.3.0; they nerfed their Magicka ability and gave them a buff to Stamina, which makes them a great hybrid race, good for either Stamina or Magicka, without being a master at both. However, those changes, while healthy for their Magicka Damage ability, also made them slightly too good for Stamina.

    How I would change Dunmer at this point:
    • Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875. Increases your Max Stamina by 750 and your Max Magicka by 1250.
    • Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
    • Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

    I'm going to be honest here, Dunmer are already really healthy in terms of damage for PTS 4.3.1, and on top of that they get a boost to their Max Health. They are already very potent damage-dealers, and they don't need to be buffed further. With these changes here, all I did compared to PTS 4.3.1 was bring down their Max Stamina a bit to bring their Stamina DPS down slightly.

    Imperial
    • Imperial
      • Red Diamond: Reworked this passive so when you deal Direct Damage now, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of Block and Bash by 5%.
        Developer Comment:
        Previously, Red Diamond felt far too restrictive for tanking builds as there was a % chance on offensive attacks, which tanks typically only do in short bursts. Now, we've streamlined the effect to happen around roughly the same cadence, while also adjusting the values to grant you some recovery in resources that any build can benefit from.
    Know what? This is a great change! Numbers can be tweaked, but I believe that this is a great direction to take the Red Diamond passive in; this will also make them somewhat decent at Stamina DPS as well with the additional Stamina sustain.

    How I would change Imperials at this point:
    None for now. Seriously, I like the direction they are going in.

    Khajiit
    • Khajiit
      • Lunar Blessings: Increased the Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina bonuses to 825 from 750. 
      • Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m. 
      • Robustness: Increased the Magicka and Stamina Recovery bonuses to 85 from 75.
        Developer Comment:
        With the introduction of CP scaling with the flat stats of the races, we made sure to make some minor adjustments so Khajiit wouldn't fall behind the other races. The bonus to the stealth radius was also slightly over tuned and allowed you to sneak too effectively. Now, you shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives.
    The big issue here is that Khajiiti do not need additional buffs to their damage. Right now, they are at the absolute top of the Magicka DPS stack, and is the same way for Stamina DPS. Again, just like it is for Dunmer, pick one.

    Khajiiti have hands down the best Magicka DPS on PTS 4.3.1, and even more so when Major Force is provided in raids. I honestly really like the idea of Khajiiti being able to crit more, but with the many different sources of additional Critical Damage and the way it is handled differently on different classes, it makes Khajiiti too strong.

    How I would change Khajiiti at this point:
    • Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 85 150.
    • Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 825 750.
    • Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8% 6%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

    Not much to say here. They absolutely did not need the resource buff. They needed a slight nerf to their Magicka DPS capabilities enough to bring their damage-dealing capabilities down below Altmer, but still high enough to still be really potent at Magicka and Stamina DPS. I've given them some additional resource regen as well to counteract that slightly and make sure they have the Stamina sustain necessary to remain good at Stamina DPS.

    Nord
    • Nords
    No changes to Nords; color me surprised. Let's talk Nords, then.

    The biggest thing to jump out at me about Nords is their new Ultimate regen. As a raider, you know how much I love those Warhorn damage buffs, and the raiders around me like them too. I've checked the raiding Discord servers I'm in, and the general opinion is that no race should have Ultimate regen as a thing. In fact, people have already theorized Nord healers simply because of that Ulti-gen (also says something about the Healer role; they're about keeping the team alive and buffs, not pumping out insane amounts of healing). Just checking the numbers on the current iteration of Nords, I am inclined to agree, because it is really useful for scorepushing.

    Rather, I would like to see Nords have a bit more sustain to give them more of a slight edge in DPS as well as raw Tanking.

    How I would change Nords at this point:
    • Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 2000. When you take or deal damage, you gain 5 Ultimate restore 1000 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
    • Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
    • Rugged: Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

    I think Nords deserve some love, I really do, but Ultimate regeneration is probably not the best idea. Rather, here, I've decided to give them a bit more capability as a Stamina damage-dealer that can also benefit them when tanking. That is effectively 100 Stamina restored per second at the maximum, but it is not as good as Bosmer, yet still better Stamina sustain than what Argonians have.

    Orc
    • Orc
      • Brawny: This passive now grants 2000 Max Stamina instead of 500 Health and 500 Stamina.
      • Unflinching Rage: This passive now grants 1000 Max Health and heals you for up to 600 when you deal damage with a weapon, with a 4 second cooldown. Previously, it granted 4% Healing Taken, and 380 Stamina and Health when dealing damage with a weapon.
        Developer Comment:
        Our first adjustments to Orcs still had them too spread thin when their original intent is meant to be damage focused. By reducing their sustaining abilities and healing bonuses, we've been able to bring up their base stats instead without sacrificing their identity as berserkers or shock troops.
    Let's be real here: they really do not need the damage buff from that extra Stamina. They were already at the top, and they don't need any more of it. Besides, the Unflinching Rage passive here is basically just a weaker version of the old Red Diamond from Imperials, which, as we all know, has been the worst racial passive for a long time.

    Honestly, I think Orcs were good enough for 4.3.1. They had a great amount of Weapon Damage to complement their Stamina DPS capabilities, and had a good amount of sustain to keep them on par with Dunmer for Stamina DPS.

    How I would change Orcs at this point:
    • Brawny: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.
    • Unflinching: Increases your Max Health by 1000. When you deal damage with a weapon, you restore 600 Health. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds Increases your Healing Received by 4%. When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 320 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
    • Swift Warrior: Increases your Weapon Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.

    All in all, no big changes compared to 4.3.1; seriously, those changes were good. I'd say Orcs were even overperforming slightly in terms of their Stamina sustain from Unflinching, so I brought that down a bit, but otherwise it was really good before 4.3.2.

    Redguard
    • Redguard
      • Martial Training: Added a bonus that reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
        Developer Comment:
        While we're relatively happy with the performance and identity of the Redguard race, we noticed they lacked that unique flavor or story piece in their passives that helped add a little something different. Due to their training in battle and ability to flow in combat, we decided to help them retain some of their fluidity by granting a small reduction to snare potency.
    I'm going to say that I'm fine with this one change. It looks pretty nice for PvP and doesn't seem to be stupidly overpowered. However, I have some things to say about Redguards as a whole.

    Oh boy, Redguards. Let's be honest here, they've been kings of Stamina DPS for a really long time due to their insane sustain; seriously, Adrenaline Rush on Live is equivalent to chugging a crafted Stamina potion on cooldown. Here's the issue: they absolutely do not need more sustain, but that is what ZOS did for their PTS 4.3.0 changes: give Redguards more sustain. The thing is that I'm fine with the mechanics of how that sustain was achieved; the numbers are just off, way off.
    Let's just take their Adrenaline Rush passive in its PTS form: "When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds." This is basically 190 Stamina restored per second, or 380 Stamina recovery, twice what Orcs have. In comparison, the Artaeum Takeaway Broth is 319 Stamina recovery, or 159.5 Stamina every second. Even if you replace the Artaeum Takeaway Broth that most other DDs would be using for blue bi-stat food, they would still have that additional 60 Stamina restored per second compared to no racial passives, which is more than what Khajiit have, and I still haven't even factored in their 8% cost reduction on Weapon Abilities.

    How I would change Redguards at this point:
    • Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
    • Conditioning: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
    • Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 750 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

    They would still be Stamina sustain kings, but at least this time it's not as insane; they'd still have more sustain than Bosmer, but in turn Bosmer would have a tiny bit more damage.

    Closing Thoughts

    I had high hopes for ZOS when it comes to the new Racial Passive changes, and mostly they delivered; I was honestly happy with the direction ZOS was going in for their 4.3.0 changes. However, there were still some caveats to those changes, such as tipping the balance way too much with the Khajiiti buffs and not buffing Argonian damage.

    The main issue I find with the 4.3.0 changes was that ZOS decided to balance them "mathematically", comparing them to set bonuses. The problem here is that the maths aren't right; the maths only apply to the overall changes regardless of roles, without regard for how they stack up when focusing on the stats for each role.

    Another issue is this intense focus on shoehorning a certain race into certain roles, such as Argonians into the Healing role and Nords and Imperials into the Tanking role, without regard to the lack of overall effective ceiling both these utility-based roles have compared to the obvious effective ceilings in the Damage-Dealing role. To demonstrate this point, there are a lot of really effective end-game Tanks in non-meta races; I personally know a great Tank who runs a Bosmer, an amazing Healer who runs an Orc, and you all know Woeler, who runs a Khajiit Tank. This is because what determines a good Tank or Healer is mainly player skill, not racial passives, and in the end, an amazing player can Tank just as effectively on an Altmer as they can on an Argonian, with Alkosh and Engulfing uptimes and everything. On the contrary, there is a ceiling to Damage-Dealing that is affected by racial passives; whatever damage a player can pull off on an Argonian would always be higher if they switched to a Dunmer.

    Unfortunately, it will always be this difference in damage-dealing, not utility, that ultimately affects players. I have been denied entry into groups, and even kicked out of certain progression groups, simply because I play Argonian DDs, even though I have repeatedly demonstrated my ability to pull respectable DPS despite my racial choice, and even proven myself to be extremely capable at the trial's mechanics.

    Fact of the matter is that this elitism bleeds out from the end-game community, especially with respected players [edited to remove naming and shaming] making racial recommendations in his guides saying "this is the best race for this build" that would eventually seep down through to the more casual community, resulting in people who don't know better in dungeons flaming their peers for not running BiS race DDs and blaming them for the group's lacklustre DPS. And on the other end of the spectrum, I've seen end-game raiders being kicked out of groups simply because they run a Khajiit rather than a Redguard Stamplar.

    To be quite honest here, these racial passives are forcing people to run something that is considered "BiS" for the tinest competitive edge rather than letting them run what they like, and ultimately it ruins the enjoyment of the game for the many of us who have built an identity on the races we love and are attached to in the Elder Scrolls franchise. I am of the opinion that racial passives actually need to be completely overhauled to provide anyone who wants them with the same bonuses, not because I want to break the Elder Scrolls lore or anything, but because the gameplay needs it. However, I do not believe such a system will be implemented any time soon in ESO.

    So this is the best I can offer for now, something that will at least decrease the damage gap. Besides, ZOS has stated that one of the goals of these racial passive changes would be to "give multiple effective options for any given gameplay role" when selecting a race, and that "the combat power provided by each race should be more equalized", and while some of the changes did achieve that, there were certain shortcomings with what they had in PTS 4.3.1, and certain changes in PTS 4.3.2 completely nullify all of those goals.

    I will continue to monitor future PTS changes and continue updating the data in my thread here.

    Great post man!
    Edited by ZOS_RikardD on February 5, 2019 3:37PM
    Elured Fury PC_NA
  • ExistingRug61
    One other minor change regarding races that I don't think you mentioned was that CP will now be applied to all flat stat bonuses, which should include the racial bonuses. So for dps races with larger stat bonus's (altmer, breton, redguard, orc etc) will have got an indirect (albiet minor) buff from this compared to races with lower stat bonuses (khajiit), so that will further change things from the previous testing.

    Edit: Also wanted to say great job on doing and documenting all the testing.
    Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 5, 2019 4:01AM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    One other minor change regarding races that I don't think you mentioned was that CP will now be applied to all flat stat bonuses, which should include the racial bonuses. So for dps races with larger stat bonus's (altmer, breton, redguard, orc etc) will have got an indirect (albiet minor) buff from this compared to races with lower stat bonuses (khajiit), so that will further change things from the previous testing.

    Oh yeah, I forgot to talk about that as well. I'll edit it into the post.

    Thanks!
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 5, 2019 4:06AM
  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Shadow Munuds need buff to come as par with other,

    Why always winning? After seeing patch notes i am planning to use TBS!
    Edited by Lord_Dexter on February 5, 2019 4:50AM
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    You do realize that bosmer's regen is amplified by % bonuses and redguard's adreniline rush isnt? Meaning that 258 regen is actually much more and can easily surpass adrenline rush. (Hint you need a regen modifier of 47% to surpass the current pts adrenline rush, potions are 20% cp, medium armor is 20 - 28%, your changes will make it a laughable 16% modifier required) Your redguard and bosmer proposals would make bosmer > redguard for any pve build except for maybe stamsorc, which is far from wanted in raids.

    Your changes for altmer would be an overall nerf to magicka which is already falling behind stamina in both pve and pvp. Changing the sustain passive from the last pts, however seems like an overall bad move by zos, khajiit has higher damage potential and sustain and it doesnt seem right, I say return the passive so far. Testing will tell for sure, but we will see.

    Dunmer changes seem from the most part fine from the current pts. I suspect they will fall slightly behind orc and altmer, but difference will be insignificant overall.

    I like zos's idea of making orc more of a brawler high damage race. The 2k stam and 1k hp change seems a bit off to me (3k resources and weapon damage?) I am hesitant to make the change to 1k hp and stam or simply make it 500 hp and 1.5k stam or just 2k stam, however if it did happen, I would boost the heal on hit passive or return the heal sustain passive somewhat.

    Although the speed boost nerf was needed, Bosmer's new pen passive does seem lackluster. To fit their hunter nature, they should instead get their sneak damage passive restored or have increased stealth speed like conceled weapon instead of temporary penenetration.

    Imperial got buffs in the right direction, but can still use some more help. The red diamond passive could have a slightly shorter cooldown (4 seconds) or a resource boost (400 per resource) and/or a max magicka boost. However, I am hesitant to firmly decide as to where to help imperials.

    Imo bretons and redguards should be for sustain, Orcs and altmers should be for damage, and dunmers and khajiits should be for adaptability. Bosmers should be unique from the trend and great at kiting and unconditional sustain, argonians can all resources sustain and high healing race, Imperials for a jack of all trades kind if race, and Nord for ultimate regen and toughness. For the most part (minus imperial), in the 1st pts, zos has accomplished that.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    .Let's take the numbers up top. I've taken those parses and converted the numbers to use the Shadow Stone rather than the Thief stone. With 3 Infused body pieces, the Critical Chance is lowered by 9.1% and the Critical Damage is increased by 11.7% for PTS 4.3.1 and 16.9% for PTS 4.3.2.

    The game rounds down crit hit damage, you are wasting a divines armor trait when you test like this. So you are undervaluing shadow by 3% if you don't have full divines. The shadow has been useless for a long time and you want to nerf it before we can actually use it. Sounds about right.

    The very most nerf that you can give the shadow is 1%. Any more then that it will be useless again. Going by what ZOS has said, that a five piece is 2.31* a set bonus and a mundai is 1.85 of a set bonus, using the only set bonus that gives a crit hit damage increase and that does not use minor force, archer mind, which gives up to a 15% increase, that would give shadow a value of 12%, as 15/2.31 is 6.5 and 6.5*1.85 is close to 12. This is the old value and would have a value of 18% with full divines. Seems like the most logical thing to me.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 5, 2019 4:54AM
  • Nox_Noir
    Nox_Noir
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    Great Data and write up man! Good feedback hope there will be more fine tuning to the racials, could still use some work.
    For Bosmer in Particular, I feel like they are getting pidgeon-holed into PVP cancer builds and are overshadowed by all other stam races for DPS and I really don't like it. That dodge passive is so bad.
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    What builds are you using? Your Altmer vs. Breton numbers seem off compared to other DPS tests I've seen, as well as just the simple math.

    Are you running Berserker enchant on Breton?
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 5, 2019 5:00AM
  • IronWooshu
    IronWooshu
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    Khajiit are going to completely useless in PVP, with everyone running crit resistance, their DPS is gonna be horrible.
  • Screamo
    Screamo
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    @JobooAGS I totally agree in Terms of raw stats for mag it should be(excluding Cats because Crit is hard to factor in without having the other max stat pools):
    Altmer(2kMag 258SD)
    Dunmer(1850Mag 258SD)
    Breton(2kMag)
    Argonian(1kMag)

    And for stam:
    Orc(2kStam 258WD)
    Dunmer(1850Stam 258WD)
    Redguard(2kStam)
    Bosmer(2kStam)
    Imperial(2kStam)
    Nord(1.5kStam)

    To Balance out the raw dmg of the 2 topstat class for each race have, they lack sustain which is balanced by the sustain the other races bring.
    Edited by Screamo on February 5, 2019 5:04AM
    Maintank der Gruppe Basilisk Ancaria

    ancaria.shivtr.com
  • xaraan
    xaraan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Though I'm happy it seemed like zos listened to the fact Argonian players were not happy to changes, I do wish they'd listened to some of the constructive posts like this a bit more. It's not so much utility that is horrible for the race, it's that they are only suited for non-DPS roles when the game revolves around the fact that DPS is the most popular thing in the game.

    I'd have rather they have done something like OP's changes, even nerfing the potion passive down to like 3200 instead of 3600 for the extra stam and the temp boost damage buff after heals.

    Fact is, that wouldn't make them over powered at all. And even though having more utility doens't either, it will have the appearance of doing so, which means non argonians will keep complaining they think it's OP whether they really know or not. In the end, by not giving them any love DPS wise (this goes for Nord and Imperial too) you end up having to make the support bonuses they get worth it, which to everyone else looks strong, even if it's not strong enough to give up whatever their preferred damage dealing race is. But by giving them a little bit of a bonus, enough to still be worse than any other race that gets bonuses in the corresponding DPS role mind you, then taking away that support makes sense. But the first PTS notes, all they did was take it away. Not sure what the mindset was with their design.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15):
    Xaraan - (Grand Master Crafter) - NB-Tank
    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
    Xaraan-dar - (Master Thief) - Stamina-Nightblade
    Xaraanosaurus - (Hist Shadow) - DK-Tank
    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
    Xa Raan - (Shehai Shatterer) - Stamina-DK
    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
    Xaraana - (Explorer) - Stamina-Templar
    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the point of comparing how parses would behave when Shadow is applied to all races, while races other than khajiit may have different optimal mundus that raises their damage floor and not critical damage? It's not a way to illustrate how Shadow is strong, it's a way to illustrate how it favors one race (while other stones may favor other races).

    Also, we're talking about difference of less than 1.5% from Breton way to Khajiit here, and that's on a sample size of 10.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on February 5, 2019 5:16AM
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a follow-up... Parses made -before- current changes show difference between altmer and khajiit of 1.32%. Now, last patch have landed, altmers are nerfed, khajiits slightly buffed, and what's the difference on new parses? Right, 0.46% (0.1% on normalized parses). That's the price for such small sample size - and on that ground, OP is doing their conclusions. Statistical significance of such tests is nonexistent.

    P.S.: Ah, so it's even conjecture using previous testing... Then it's moot. Let us wait for parses from PTS, because it absolutely doesn't take max stat buffs from CPs into account.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on February 5, 2019 5:33AM
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Please don’t get orcs nerfed. They were looking lack luster for PvP before kind of like a weird mix of redguard and something else. Now they get their identity back which is a hard hitting brawler race that needs to either build for sustain or use skill to play low sustain high damage like many of us enjoy doing.

    Also if I’m not wrong what put orcs near the top of PvE last PTS patch was the fact that they have the Stam sustain built in to keep going. Without that they’re going to drop. Extra health and health regen is useless in PvE for the most part so I think this makes them good in both areas which is nice.
    Edited by Vapirko on February 5, 2019 5:37AM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the point of comparing how parses would behave when Shadow is applied to all races, while races other than khajiit may have different optimal mundus that raises their damage floor and not critical damage? It's not a way to illustrate how Shadow is strong, it's a way to illustrate how it favors one race (while other stones may favor other races).

    Also, we're talking about difference of less than 1.5% from Breton way to Khajiit here, and that's on a sample size of 10.
    I'll just post these again. Here, you can just compare the numbers yourself.
    Thief Stone
    pjmPlke.png
    Shadow Stone
    Y10OCDP.png
    Also have to mention that the rightmost column is those numbers compared to Nord on Thief.

    So far, for 4.3.2, I believe the Shadow stone is best for Khajiit and the Thief stone is best for other races. Just as a disclaimer because no matter how many disclaimers I make, people will still *** about them, these are done using parses recorded on 4.3.1, so none of the 4.3.2 changes were actually factored in. Honestly, I've already said that in the original post, so stop complaining about it. I only have so *** much to work with.

    My point is that we shouldn't have one stone that is only better for one race, especially when that race is already the best of the bunch.
    As a follow-up... Parses made -before- current changes show difference between altmer and khajiit of 1.32%. Now, last patch have landed, altmers are nerfed, khajiits slightly buffed, and what's the difference on new parses? Right, 0.46% (0.1% on normalized parses). That's the price for such small sample size - and on that ground, OP is doing their conclusions. Statistical significance of such tests is nonexistent.

    P.S.: Ah, so it's even conjecture using previous testing... Then it's moot. Let us wait for parses from PTS, because it absolutely doesn't take max stat buffs from CPs into account.
    If you would like to do your own testing, be my guest. Just keep in mind that each parse takes a tiny bit over two minutes; collecting and inputting the data into a pre-made spreadsheet takes one minute; building the ulti back up before the next parse, I'd say 30 seconds; each parse has to take the exact same rotations and buffs because honestly, if you're smart enough to consider sample size, you're smart enough to know that consistency is key when testing and collecting data; each parse has take the exact same rotations and buffs so if you screw up, you gotta start over; and if you use a macro you actually gotta script the individual macros (or in my case, make a completely separate program that accepts input through a UI to script the macros for me), and the macros also stand a chance to screw up every two to three parses because there will always be ping spikes connecting to ESO; and I'm not even mentioning the time it takes to create those spreadsheets, figure out the maths, make the necessary calculations, double check the calculations to make sure they are correct, and write up the forum post.

    The attempt I made on PTS v4.3.0 had a sample size of 5 per race, and that took me about 10 hours to do just for the testing session because full 2min rotations are hard to remember and perform perfectly all the time.

    The attempt I made on PTS v4.3.1 used scripts to perform my rotations with a sample size of 10 per race, and even that took me 6 hours. I even took the time to jot down the Minor Vuln uptime and normalizing the critical values.

    So, again, if you would like to do the testing yourself if you think you can do a better job than I can, by all means, be my guest.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 5, 2019 5:49AM
  • Witar
    Witar
    ✭✭✭✭
    Nice analysis, don't agree with every change you want to implement though.
    It cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
    Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt,
    It lies behind stars and under hills,
    And empty holes it fills,
    It comes first and follows after,
    Ends life, kills laughter.
  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I like a lot of your suggestions on racial changes, however, some of what you propose for Bretons and Argonians I don't agree with.

    Breton doesn't get a damage buff, and while I understand that they can swap Citrus to blue food, and the sustain is strong, but that's what makes the choice between an Altmer/Dunmer and a Breton. You choose the sustain or you choose the damage. It's fair, to me, especially as someone who has an Altmer main and now main a Breton (my main is an Altmer Templar and I do have tons of experience with it i.e. trials and AR50). That being said it's Altmer that needs to be given its sustain back a bit with some tweaking to the value of it. I feel like Altmer is getting nerfed so that Dunmer and Altmer aren't much of a thought between magicka dps races....but why does that matter when Khajiit, for some reason, is winning. Why did Khajiit get buffed today again? What I'm trying to say is that I think Breton is in a fair place, and I would like to just see an adjustment to what they're doing to Altmer and Dunmer instead of yanking away the buff Breton has needed. Not everyone who plays a Breton is a healer, especially not in PvP.

    As for your Argonian suggestions, I don't think they should get 1k of each stat, perhaps 1k of two stats. Maybe even just 850 magicka and stam, yank the health out. The issue with Argonians in PvP is that they can use any pot they desire for sustain/damage buffs, have high health and with healing received they are innately more tankier. The three that I just listed are what makes them "broken" in a PvP environment. Take away their health, keep their pot passive at 3600 (shouldn't have been buffed today either), do not give back healing received, and keep them at 6% healing done. Argonian mains will scream about anything I just listed, but they are blatantly overpowered in PvP. I completely agree that they should be able to play multiple roles, but it's unsettling to think what could happen if they were given all these passives + a damage one too. I feel like that tips the balance a bit.

    As a side note, anyone else baffled at Orc and Khajiit? What are they thinking lol
    Bee/Karstyll
    PC/NA Server
    Fairweather Friends
    Bee~Altmer Templar~AR50 Former Empress of Trueflame
    Wyress Bee~Breton Warden~AR43
    Mini Bee~Bosmer Nightblade~AR33
    Bee Devani~Dunmer Sorcerer~AR31

    Despair~Altmer Sorcerer~AR29 Former Empress of Azura's Star
    Fairly Beeweather~Bosmer Nightblade~AR19
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @HatchetHaro , I do appreciate the work, didn't mean to belittle your attempts. But - sad but true - until the number of samples is taken to the point of being statistically significant, parses do more misleading than anything else. No matter how consistently done, parses are going to have a degree of spread simply because they're relying on randomness. Again, I appreciate of work, but just like with other parse threads, invested work doesn't automatically make results statistically sound. It's a great work, it might be among those few estimates we have (along with @susmitds , Liko, others), but it's absolutely not a definite measure of relative race performance, let alone a ground to advise any changes to racials.

    Macro for whole sequence is what I actually was thinking about to automate large number of parses, but I'm not quite sure if there's an official position on using macros (on PTS or live), and I'm not sure if I want to ask for trouble.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    I like a lot of your suggestions on racial changes, however, some of what you propose for Bretons and Argonians I don't agree with.

    Breton doesn't get a damage buff, and while I understand that they can swap Citrus to blue food, and the sustain is strong, but that's what makes the choice between an Altmer/Dunmer and a Breton. You choose the sustain or you choose the damage. It's fair, to me, especially as someone who has an Altmer main and now main a Breton (my main is an Altmer Templar and I do have tons of experience with it i.e. trials and AR50). That being said it's Altmer that needs to be given its sustain back a bit with some tweaking to the value of it. I feel like Altmer is getting nerfed so that Dunmer and Altmer aren't much of a thought between magicka dps races....but why does that matter when Khajiit, for some reason, is winning. Why did Khajiit get buffed today again? What I'm trying to say is that I think Breton is in a fair place, and I would like to just see an adjustment to what they're doing to Altmer and Dunmer instead of yanking away the buff Breton has needed. Not everyone who plays a Breton is a healer, especially not in PvP.

    As for your Argonian suggestions, I don't think they should get 1k of each stat, perhaps 1k of two stats. Maybe even just 850 magicka and stam, yank the health out. The issue with Argonians in PvP is that they can use any pot they desire for sustain/damage buffs, have high health and with healing received they are innately more tankier. The three that I just listed are what makes them "broken" in a PvP environment. Take away their health, keep their pot passive at 3600 (shouldn't have been buffed today either), do not give back healing received, and keep them at 6% healing done. Argonian mains will scream about anything I just listed, but they are blatantly overpowered in PvP. I completely agree that they should be able to play multiple roles, but it's unsettling to think what could happen if they were given all these passives + a damage one too. I feel like that tips the balance a bit.

    As a side note, anyone else baffled at Orc and Khajiit? What are they thinking lol

    For orc they’re thinking trade stamina sustain (what was putting them at the top PvE parses before) for raw stats which they were severely lacking in. Is it more than I expected? Yes. But I also need to get on PTS. People are jumping to conclusions before PTS is even up. Don’t forget that the CP modifiers are changing too so this is going to have bigger changes based on lots of things like food and build as well. The health is needed for PvP and uselsss for PvE so basically in terms of PvE orcs are getting an extra 1500 stamina in return for about 190 Stam regen which is probably not better for PvE dps.
    Edited by Vapirko on February 5, 2019 6:02AM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @HatchetHaro , I do appreciate the work, didn't mean to belittle your attempts. But - sad but true - until the number of samples is taken to the point of being statistically significant, parses do more misleading than anything else. No matter how consistently done, parses are going to have a degree of spread simply because they're relying on randomness. Again, I appreciate of work, but just like with other parse threads, invested work doesn't automatically make results statistically sound. It's a great work, it might be among those few estimates we have (along with @susmitds , Liko, others), but it's absolutely not a definite measure of relative race performance, let alone a ground to advise any changes to racials.

    Macro for whole sequence is what I actually was thinking about to automate large number of parses, but I'm not quite sure if there's an official position on using macros (on PTS or live), and I'm not sure if I want to ask for trouble.

    Unfortunately, you already have insulted my work and the insane amounts of trouble I've gone to to make these posts.

    Until you can fully eliminate the RNG, my data is the best you can go on. I have the utmost confidence that this is the most accurate data on racial differences you can find to-date, because I already have eliminated the RNG within the Critical Chance and Critical Damage in my calculations. The only stats still affected by RNG would be proc-sets and the Minor Vulnerability uptime, all of which I have documented in my other thread.

    It is as statistically sound as can be given the limited timeframe I can test in as well as my busy schedule, and until you can find data that is even more consistent than mine, I advise you deal with it.
  • Screamo
    Screamo
    ✭✭✭
    @HatchetHaro wouldn't using math with standard setups to get values be the most consistent way to compare the races, as the only thing that wouldn't be accounted for would be the onhit proc sets like the msa weapons?
    Edited by Screamo on February 5, 2019 6:19AM
    Maintank der Gruppe Basilisk Ancaria

    ancaria.shivtr.com
  • Draxys
    Draxys
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Good stuff. I hope someone can get this in the hands of class reps and expedite delivery to the devs. Excellent feedback.
    2013

    rip decibel
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Screamo wrote: »
    @HatchetHaro wouldn't using math with standard setups to get values be the most consistent way to compare the races, as the only thing that wouldn't be accounted for would be the onhit proc sets like the msa weapons?

    I was actually looking to get numbers in builds that are more representative of what people would actually use in order to compare the numbers more directly and also utilize their sustain to the full potential.

    You are correct, though; my tests so far have been in Spell Strategist, Perfected Siroria, and Zaan, and while those are definitely more representative of real parsing, the numbers would be much, much more consistent and easier to crunch when using raw stat sets such as Julianos, Mother's Sorrow, and Slimecraw.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    You do realize that bosmer's regen is amplified by % bonuses and redguard's adreniline rush isnt? Meaning that 258 regen is actually much more and can easily surpass adrenline rush. (Hint you need a regen modifier of 47% to surpass the current pts adrenline rush, potions are 20% cp, medium armor is 20 - 28%, your changes will make it a laughable 16% modifier required) Your redguard and bosmer proposals would make bosmer > redguard for any pve build except for maybe stamsorc, which is far from wanted in raids.

    Honestly, I didn't even think of the % boosts to Stamina and Magicka recovery; I've been so far gone from caring about stats since my last scorepushing days. Getting back into it was a learning process entirely its own.

    I am in the process of getting numbers from within the game and updating my proposals, which is most likely just going to be "change numbers to flat values not affected by % bonuses".

    Fun finds, by the way; Stamsorcs have 92% extra Stamina Recovery (based on numbers from Potion, Daedric Protection, 7-piece medium armor, Vampirism, 75 points into Mooncalf), so the 258 Stamina Recovery Bosmer have would translate to 248 Stamina per second; yikes!

    StamDKs have 72% extra Stamina recovery, Magblades have 79% extra Magicka recovery (armor is 5/1/1, that is), and Magplars have 64% extra Magicka recovery (5/1/1). Good numbers to have, and also means I have to rework some of my suggestions.

    Good call; thanks for the reminder.

    Now I can imagine Bosmer being the real BiS Stamina Race since they actually have more sustain than Redguards on the PTS.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 5, 2019 6:54AM
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Personally i like the changes. For all round breadth of use (lower level players, PvP, feel) not just for perfect min max 60k dps parses which the game should not be balanced around in my view.
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus - VR16 (810CP) Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-02-18 / 16-02-18
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus - Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus - Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting for : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Lunar Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | TradersOfNirn2
    Trials : Saviours

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus - L40 Dunmer Magsorc enjoying legit use of Kyne, sub 50 BG and exploring the game anew
    Heals-With-Pets - CP160+ Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
  • DisgracefulMind
    DisgracefulMind
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Vapirko wrote: »
    I like a lot of your suggestions on racial changes, however, some of what you propose for Bretons and Argonians I don't agree with.

    Breton doesn't get a damage buff, and while I understand that they can swap Citrus to blue food, and the sustain is strong, but that's what makes the choice between an Altmer/Dunmer and a Breton. You choose the sustain or you choose the damage. It's fair, to me, especially as someone who has an Altmer main and now main a Breton (my main is an Altmer Templar and I do have tons of experience with it i.e. trials and AR50). That being said it's Altmer that needs to be given its sustain back a bit with some tweaking to the value of it. I feel like Altmer is getting nerfed so that Dunmer and Altmer aren't much of a thought between magicka dps races....but why does that matter when Khajiit, for some reason, is winning. Why did Khajiit get buffed today again? What I'm trying to say is that I think Breton is in a fair place, and I would like to just see an adjustment to what they're doing to Altmer and Dunmer instead of yanking away the buff Breton has needed. Not everyone who plays a Breton is a healer, especially not in PvP.

    As for your Argonian suggestions, I don't think they should get 1k of each stat, perhaps 1k of two stats. Maybe even just 850 magicka and stam, yank the health out. The issue with Argonians in PvP is that they can use any pot they desire for sustain/damage buffs, have high health and with healing received they are innately more tankier. The three that I just listed are what makes them "broken" in a PvP environment. Take away their health, keep their pot passive at 3600 (shouldn't have been buffed today either), do not give back healing received, and keep them at 6% healing done. Argonian mains will scream about anything I just listed, but they are blatantly overpowered in PvP. I completely agree that they should be able to play multiple roles, but it's unsettling to think what could happen if they were given all these passives + a damage one too. I feel like that tips the balance a bit.

    As a side note, anyone else baffled at Orc and Khajiit? What are they thinking lol

    For orc they’re thinking trade stamina sustain (what was putting them at the top PvE parses before) for raw stats which they were severely lacking in. Is it more than I expected? Yes. But I also need to get on PTS. People are jumping to conclusions before PTS is even up. Don’t forget that the CP modifiers are changing too so this is going to have bigger changes based on lots of things like food and build as well. The health is needed for PvP and uselsss for PvE so basically in terms of PvE orcs are getting an extra 1500 stamina in return for about 190 Stam regen which is probably not better for PvE dps.

    I'm not jumping to conclusions, I just am in the opinion that they were given way too much stamina and health for this buff. I am, however, really happy in the direction of removing healing received from racial passives. This really is a good direction taking that out.
    Bee/Karstyll
    PC/NA Server
    Fairweather Friends
    Bee~Altmer Templar~AR50 Former Empress of Trueflame
    Wyress Bee~Breton Warden~AR43
    Mini Bee~Bosmer Nightblade~AR33
    Bee Devani~Dunmer Sorcerer~AR31

    Despair~Altmer Sorcerer~AR29 Former Empress of Azura's Star
    Fairly Beeweather~Bosmer Nightblade~AR19
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
    ✭✭✭✭
    So, you're asking for a nerf of the Khajiit, compared to live? Careful.
    PC - EU
    "Kiz Zennrili an Zennji siir furo jer wodro"
    May Jone and Jode's light reveal your path.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @HatchetHaro , I do appreciate the work, didn't mean to belittle your attempts. But - sad but true - until the number of samples is taken to the point of being statistically significant, parses do more misleading than anything else. No matter how consistently done, parses are going to have a degree of spread simply because they're relying on randomness. Again, I appreciate of work, but just like with other parse threads, invested work doesn't automatically make results statistically sound. It's a great work, it might be among those few estimates we have (along with @susmitds , Liko, others), but it's absolutely not a definite measure of relative race performance, let alone a ground to advise any changes to racials.

    Macro for whole sequence is what I actually was thinking about to automate large number of parses, but I'm not quite sure if there's an official position on using macros (on PTS or live), and I'm not sure if I want to ask for trouble.

    Unfortunately, you already have insulted my work and the insane amounts of trouble I've gone to to make these posts.

    Until you can fully eliminate the RNG, my data is the best you can go on. I have the utmost confidence that this is the most accurate data on racial differences you can find to-date, because I already have eliminated the RNG within the Critical Chance and Critical Damage in my calculations. The only stats still affected by RNG would be proc-sets and the Minor Vulnerability uptime, all of which I have documented in my other thread.

    It is as statistically sound as can be given the limited timeframe I can test in as well as my busy schedule, and until you can find data that is even more consistent than mine, I advise you deal with it.

    You've done that work on your own accord, didn't you? Nobody asked you to go into such trouble, you did it because you wanted to. And once again, amount of work is not a criteria of its usefulness; "most accurate data ... to-date" does not mean it's accurate enough to draw any conclusions. For the purpose of having rough estimate within several percent? It may work. As a precise measurement of relative standing of the race, suitable to make any balancing suggestions? You might as well have not bothered. Such as statistics. I advise you to deal with it.
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    ✭✭✭
    ...
    Edited by susmitds on February 5, 2019 10:19AM
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