THE NEW BOUNTY HUNTING SYSTEM: a serious debate

Algorax

idk wrote: »

OP wants to have a discussion about having a bounty system added to the game but without addressing that Zos already had plans to add a bounty system, but CHOSE to abandon that idea, and addressing the reasons Zos abandoned it the conversation in this thread is rather pointless outside of entertainment value.

Just saying since I expect the reason to have a serious debate is to convince Zos to take this path.

The fact that they provided reasons does not make them good reasons not prevents us from speaking about the topic and, through discussion, finally convinging devs about the value of this idea.
Again, what i wrote here is what transpires from other player's ideas, which were collected and given a proper, tidy and logical form, making hte whole system plausible and balanced for both sides.

Algorax

Agalloch wrote: »

Even WOW has an open PVP system and is doing fine.

Would be awesome if ZOS rethink about uncancel the other parts of the justice system.

This system is not planned to be a surrogate of world pvp, it's a separate mode, much more deep and entertaining than the mere "i found an enemy, i kill the enemy".
But yes, reconsidering is often a good sign of wisdom.

Algorax

Knightpanther wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

Could not agree with them more, keep PvP away from PVE.

Be safe

Do you.... realize that is not like than even now?
Besides, as i wrote, it would be fully optional, so puny pvers would be safe as long as they don't mess with things they can't handle!

Algorax

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

That's all but a reason: more unadequate pvpers joining the system would mean:

1) poor, easy bounties or
2) weak, uncapable bounty hunters

It would be fairly realistic, depicting a situations where not everyone can be a professionalbounty hunter of a master thief/assassin.

Algorax

idk wrote: »

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

LOL. Not the actual case at all. We all know very well this game was not advertised as an open world PvP game so turning it into one is not a very bright idea.

In other words, the real answer is there are not man hard core PvP players as is evident with the activity in this thread.

No hardcore pvper is needed to make this happen and a simple optional system restricted to only those who deliberately decides to join it won't turn this game in an oper world pvp game, that's a fact.

Tasear

Add it as a dynamic to cydrolli.

Algorax

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

That is not a reason: the system would be fully optional, therefore players who desire being safe would just need to not join the system. Since it would be a pvp based activity, you should adress unbalancement topics to the pvp section: if you belive that pvp is unbalanced than solve that problem, do not waste a good idea like this for another problem.

I think that if such a system were optional, only wanna-be bounty hunters would opt-in, while most thieves/murderers would opt-out. So the bounty hunters wouldn't have very many criminals to hunt.

Personally I'm glad ZOS nixed the pvp justice system.

Everyone's will has a price: to make this suitable for criminals is just a matter of what the rewards could be.
Greed is a powerful sin afterall

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

Not going to happen. It'll just be jerks griefing other players.

Algorax

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Not going to happen. It'll just be jerks griefing other players.

Do not expect to be a system foe everyone: sure you can try it but when confrontations with other players is involved and you abandon the safe space of pve you must know what you are about to face. That's what most players don't get and join bgs with poor gear and skill.
The price to the victor. And remember: a thief can always murder a bounty hunter

srfrogg23

Everyone thinks a pvp version of the justice system is a good idea until they realize that it really just means they'll be ganked/farmed nonstop just outside of every outlaw den in Tamriel.

Then it will just lead to tears on the forums...

idk

Algorax wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP wants to have a discussion about having a bounty system added to the game but without addressing that Zos already had plans to add a bounty system, but CHOSE to abandon that idea, and addressing the reasons Zos abandoned it the conversation in this thread is rather pointless outside of entertainment value.

Just saying since I expect the reason to have a serious debate is to convince Zos to take this path.

The fact that they provided reasons does not make them good reasons not prevents us from speaking about the topic and, through discussion, finally convinging devs about the value of this idea.
Again, what i wrote here is what transpires from other player's ideas, which were collected and given a proper, tidy and logical form, making hte whole system plausible and balanced for both sides.

It is entirely irrelevant if you agree with there reasons. I was merely pointing out that any actual serious discussion has to address their reasons.

You said you wanted this to be a serious discussion yet you are now saying you just want it to be a discussion. Should have stated that from the start.

Algorax

idk wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP wants to have a discussion about having a bounty system added to the game but without addressing that Zos already had plans to add a bounty system, but CHOSE to abandon that idea, and addressing the reasons Zos abandoned it the conversation in this thread is rather pointless outside of entertainment value.

Just saying since I expect the reason to have a serious debate is to convince Zos to take this path.

The fact that they provided reasons does not make them good reasons not prevents us from speaking about the topic and, through discussion, finally convinging devs about the value of this idea.
Again, what i wrote here is what transpires from other player's ideas, which were collected and given a proper, tidy and logical form, making hte whole system plausible and balanced for both sides.

It is entirely irrelevant if you agree with there reasons. I was merely pointing out that any actual serious discussion has to address their reasons.

You said you wanted this to be a serious discussion yet you are now saying you just want it to be a discussion. Should have stated that from the start.

A serious discussion is not bound to adress their reasons simply because the way this system was planned makes it a totally differen thing and solves many of their concerns automatically.

dodgehopper_ESO

TBois wrote: »

I didn't read everything, but did you know that the justice system was supposed to have pvp involved with players as the law and criminals. Sadly they tabled the pvp part before implementation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241386/pvp-justice-system-canceled

TBois wrote: »

I didn't read everything, but did you know that the justice system was supposed to have pvp involved with players as the law and criminals. Sadly they tabled the pvp part before implementation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241386/pvp-justice-system-canceled

The Iron Wheel (for Thieves Guild) and the Order of the Hour could have had great opportunity for alternate gameplay on different alts.

JadonSky

It would be cool I think they could add this to the current PVP zone. Say they add multiple thieve guild locations around Cyrodiil (so a single one can't be easily camped) You take a mission to steal a rare item somewhere in Cyrodiil and if you take the quest you can be killed by anyone in Cyrodiil. The reward is much higher and if someone kills you they would get a bounty award.

Could add another aspect to the world pvp zone. Just an idea i'm sure more thought would need to be put in but that's just a high level idea. But to get people interested the reward would need to be worth the struggle.

Another idea that might work in pve zones, add a bounty hunter line where you have a skill that you can see people with high bounty's when your within 5 meters (something glows around them like a node). You then can activate the bounty line when near that player and that player will get a similar options as if a guard had found them. If they don't accept to pay you then a dual starts, if they are able to get away from the dual area then they escape and you can't active it again for x amount of time. This would mean only one player could attempt to kill them, would require the skill to find and activate this dual mode with another player, and the small amount of distance to see them would really make it so you would have to go up to a player to find them, if a guard is already attacking a player you cant activate the skill and if they escape a guard they would get a timer as well (but you could follow them). Outlaw refuges would be safe zones and add to a thiefs guild/dark brotherhood passive the ability that when leaving an outlaw refuge you will not attract the attention of a bounty hunter for x minutes or make the passive so your cloaked when you leave an outlaw refuge and no player can see you for x seconds.

Smitch_59

Algorax wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

Could not agree with them more, keep PvP away from PVE.

Be safe

Do you.... realize that is not like than even now?
Besides, as i wrote, it would be fully optional, so puny pvers would be safe as long as they don't mess with things they can't handle!

The fact that you so eloquently refer to "puny pvers" speaks volumes about your motives.

LinearParadox

Will never happen, stop wasting your time. There's post after post, topic after topic about this, each with their own ideas and many of them good, but it flat out doesn't matter.
The justice system was supposed to have that to start with, but they gave into the fears of the PvE carebears and other doomsayers bringing up every way it could potentially be exploited or this or that, and they scrapped it.
It will never be introduced.
They've flat out said "PvP in PvP areas only" And everywhere else is "safe".

Tandor

Adding PvP to the Justice System isn't going to happen, ZOS made that absolutely clear. PvP and PvE need to be kept separate in their view, and I'm sure they were influenced in that decision by both the heated exchanges whenever this comes up on the forum and the total failure of the Imperial City DLC.

Imposing PvP penalties on PvE actions in PvE zones is never going to work. Making it optional wouldn't solve their main concern which is that it would be impossible to prevent the system being exploited - for example, by friends taking it in turns to be the criminal and the bounty hunter by pre-arrangement.

ceruulean

Just make it so you can only attack players with a high bounty (like over 1000 or whatever) and have the "don't harm innocents" turned off, and you can't tell who's a criminal or not unless you see them sneaking around doing criminal activities. So you can't ambush ppl coming out of fences unless they're bad at stealing and have a high bounty.

Make bounty rewards totally pitiful because ain't nobody got time to give gold for catching a petty thief, unless the criminals bounty is so high they are notorious

Algorax

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

Could not agree with them more, keep PvP away from PVE.

Be safe

Do you.... realize that is not like than even now?
Besides, as i wrote, it would be fully optional, so puny pvers would be safe as long as they don't mess with things they can't handle!

The fact that you so eloquently refer to "puny pvers" speaks volumes about your motives.

Oooor i was just taunting the likes of you and you just fell in my trap

Algorax

LinearParadox wrote: »

Will never happen, stop wasting your time. There's post after post, topic after topic about this, each with their own ideas and many of them good, but it flat out doesn't matter.
The justice system was supposed to have that to start with, but they gave into the fears of the PvE carebears and other doomsayers bringing up every way it could potentially be exploited or this or that, and they scrapped it.
It will never be introduced.
They've flat out said "PvP in PvP areas only" And everywhere else is "safe".

I've seen these motivations so many times with the necromancer topic and yet...
Not to mention that if an OPTIONAL pvp aspect is not to be allowed in a pve zone then i expect that they banish duels aswell and that they do it right now as a matter of coherence.

ceruulean

Another idea is make it so you have to have a quest active such as : "Kill a player with over 1000 bounty 0/1" and you can only attack players that satisfy the requirement.

So if you want rewards killing 100 bounty thieves, you have to pick up a lower tier quest with crap rewards. You can fulfill the slot killing a 1000 bounty criminal but the rewards won't change. So there's incentive to go for a higher quest and focus on high priority targets

If you attack someone and die the quest fails and you have to pick it up again.
If you succeed, you complete the quest and can turn it in, and cannot attack any other players.

The criminal loses all their stolen goods because they were killed by someone on a bounty quest, and all their bounty is cleared.

Quest should not be sharable and you have to land the killing blow.

Bounty will stop ticking during the duel so it doesn't fall below 1000 until combat ends

Algorax

Tandor wrote: »

Adding PvP to the Justice System isn't going to happen, ZOS made that absolutely clear. PvP and PvE need to be kept separate in their view, and I'm sure they were influenced in that decision by both the heated exchanges whenever this comes up on the forum and the total failure of the Imperial City DLC.

Imposing PvP penalties on PvE actions in PvE zones is never going to work. Making it optional wouldn't solve their main concern which is that it would be impossible to prevent the system being exploited - for example, by friends taking it in turns to be the criminal and the bounty hunter by pre-arrangement.

According to this logic, then i want no guard on cyrodyll, just players and no resouce nodes nor any other kind of npc and pve activity.
Noone would impose anything: it would be optional, a game with high risk and high reward, and making deals with friends would not be an exploit, but a faming the very same way it happens in skyreach. Not to mention that making deals with your friends do not prevent other bh to hunt you down.

Tandor

Algorax wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

Will never happen, stop wasting your time. There's post after post, topic after topic about this, each with their own ideas and many of them good, but it flat out doesn't matter.
The justice system was supposed to have that to start with, but they gave into the fears of the PvE carebears and other doomsayers bringing up every way it could potentially be exploited or this or that, and they scrapped it.
It will never be introduced.
They've flat out said "PvP in PvP areas only" And everywhere else is "safe".

I've seen these motivations so many times with the necromancer topic and yet...
Not to mention that if an OPTIONAL pvp aspect is not to be allowed in a pve zone then i expect that they banish duels aswell and that they do it right now as a matter of coherence.

There's quite a difference between two people dueling by consent by a wayshrine and bounty hunters waiting in packs outside refuges. That said, I'd personally prefer dueling to be limited to arenas and PvP zones.

There's never any such thing as an "optional" PvP aspect in these discussions, because there's always a bounty threshold proposed at which PvE actions attract PvP penalties. Those who propose genuine opt-outs (by simply allowing a PvEer to toggle the bounty hunter system off) are always miniscule in number compared to those who oppose genuine opt-outs because the last thing they want is to be bounty hunting experienced and well-geared PvPers, they're after the inexperienced and PvE-geared n00bs.

Algorax

Tandor wrote: »

Algorax wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

Will never happen, stop wasting your time. There's post after post, topic after topic about this, each with their own ideas and many of them good, but it flat out doesn't matter.
The justice system was supposed to have that to start with, but they gave into the fears of the PvE carebears and other doomsayers bringing up every way it could potentially be exploited or this or that, and they scrapped it.
It will never be introduced.
They've flat out said "PvP in PvP areas only" And everywhere else is "safe".

I've seen these motivations so many times with the necromancer topic and yet...
Not to mention that if an OPTIONAL pvp aspect is not to be allowed in a pve zone then i expect that they banish duels aswell and that they do it right now as a matter of coherence.

There's quite a difference between two people dueling by consent by a wayshrine and bounty hunters waiting in packs outside refuges. That said, I'd personally prefer dueling to be limited to arenas and PvP zones.

There's never any such thing as an "optional" PvP aspect in these discussions, because there's always a bounty threshold proposed at which PvE actions attract PvP penalties. Those who propose genuine opt-outs (by simply allowing a PvEer to toggle the bounty hunter system off) are always miniscule in number compared to those who oppose genuine opt-outs because the last thing they want is to be bounty hunting experienced and well-geared PvPers, they're after the inexperienced and PvE-geared n00bs.

The answer to this in the previous replies

TheShadowScout

Algorax wrote: »

You may have guessed that the obvious way to renew this system is giving players a chance to actually partecipate the justice system...

...which as has been said was in their plans, but got dumped when they made the firm decision to keep all PvP in the PvP regions and all PvE regions "safe" for people from being ganked.
That's their decision.
And until and unless they change their mind, its useless to discuss any possibility of a player bounty system.
(as much as it galls me to see criminal scum getting away with murder without even trying to be sneaky about it!)

As fo the bland justice system, well... my own throughts on the matter are on record:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The Iron Wheel (for Thieves Guild) and the Order of the Hour could have had great opportunity for alternate gameplay on different alts.

Agreed!
But while the powers that be have decided we shalt not PK criminal players... no reason not to do it with arresting NPC criminals in PvE anyhow, right? Like... some sort of... enforcers guild?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii
(I totally have a few characters who I would love to see the mandatory TG membership you get for just visiting the place gone from and join the Iron Wheel instead in their quest for JUSTICE!)

Tandor wrote: »

That said, I'd personally prefer dueling to be limited to arenas and PvP zones.

I still say, duelling within city limits should be a crime the cardinals... ehhh, I mean, the justice guards might react to!

TheInfernalRage

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

This was never a pvp-centered game. And this bounty hunting thing is a bad idea. ZOS was right in canceling it.

Algorax

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

This was never a pvp-centered game. And this bounty hunting thing is a bad idea. ZOS was right in canceling it.

You provided no reasons to prove that it is a bad idea, not to mention that a game does not need to be pvp centeredto have pvp. Also this is irrelevent when you think that the point of this system is not providing pvp per se, but finally renewing a faulty system.
Besides, zos cancelled THEIR concept, this is a different, new approach.

Nestor

Here is the thing. Even if, and I stress the even, this would have to be an opt in. Which means few would opt in to this so, a lot of time and effort to introduce pvp into a pve world. And just a few people using it.

Algorax

Nestor wrote: »

Here is the thing. Even if, and I stress the even, this would have to be an opt in. Which means few would opt in to this so, a lot of time and effort to introduce pvp into a pve world. And just a few people using it.

And how exactly did you come to this apprisal?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Algorax wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

That is not a reason: the system would be fully optional, therefore players who desire being safe would just need to not join the system. Since it would be a pvp based activity, you should adress unbalancement topics to the pvp section: if you belive that pvp is unbalanced than solve that problem, do not waste a good idea like this for another problem.

Algorax wrote: »

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

This was never a pvp-centered game. And this bounty hunting thing is a bad idea. ZOS was right in canceling it.

You provided no reasons to prove that it is a bad idea, not to mention that a game does not need to be pvp centeredto have pvp. Also this is irrelevent when you think that the point of this system is not providing pvp per se, but finally renewing a faulty system.
Besides, zos cancelled THEIR concept, this is a different, new approach.

1. You have to reply to everyone who disagrees with you, trying to force your ideas down their throats because why?
2. It’s kind of not a new concept, and ZoS still isn’t going to change it.