THE NEW BOUNTY HUNTING SYSTEM: a serious debate

Algorax

Greetings.

I am creating this discussion to give voice to some players with whom i spoke recently.
They were complaining about this flat justice system, and they all agreed it could use some spice and so, after gathering some ideas and giving them a form, an idea emerged more often than others: a dynamic BOUNTY SYSTEM.
I will now explain its details at the best of my capabilities. Please keep in mind that this is a discussion to evaluate the idea, not to talk about its balancement (which would be the dev's task if this idea is well accepted). Please read thisto its end before asking something that may be already explained. I hope you like the idea and that i don't miss anything!

First of all we should determine the context. We have 2 parts in the justice system: the criminal and the law. Untill now, the first part was often embodyed by a player and the latter always by an NPC.
You may have guessed that the obvious way to renew this system is giving players a chance to actually partecipate the justice system, the natural question would be "How". While a player surely cannot become a mere guard, we can still allow him to partecipate the justice system by adding a bounty hunting system.
We elaborated a prototype based on some simple loigcal passages.
What happens if player commits a crime like theft, murdering, throwing mud balls on guards (yes that triggers them)? We all know that escaping the justice is kinda easy. I am myself a master thief and i made a little fortune with my activities. But in doing that i always had the feeling of somehting repetitive, that gave no surprise and incredibly easy to perform.
Where mere guards cannot handle the great cunning and dexterity of a player, maybe another player could. And here enters the brave figure of the bounty hunter: a player devoted to hunt lawless criminals down, for a profit of course!

But there is a first problem: adding bounty hunters would mean having players uncontrollably slauthering each others. The solution, though, is quite simple: make the whole system optional.
Now let's assume that someone commits a crime: he would receive a bounty depending on the entity of his transgression, something easly clearable. So, in order to justify the choice of partecipating the bounty hunting system, the criminal should be rewarded for his choice. The rewars is simple: more money! $$$
That's right: a system where to an higher risk corresponds an higher reward. Stolen objects would give more money thielves guild and dark brotherhood would reward you with more gold and maybe extra objects... the magnitude of the increased reward would be balanced by devs. This choice could present in the form of a simple old-style switch in a specific panel, or maybe signing a list at the local thileves den. Maybe this would unlock special mission and contracts for the assassin/master thief. In other words: more opportunities, more rewards for a brave playstyle.
But joining the system, while giving more rewards, would also mean that your bounty increases much faster. Whenever this bounty would reach acertain level (or maybe from the very beginning) you would be labeled as WANTED.

From that moment foward you would truly be in trouble, because there would be a reward on your head, maybe high enough to convince local bounty hunters (players) to hunt you down and enjoy the money your head would bring them.
Not all players can partecipate indiscriminately: in order to prevent a mass slaughter, bounty hunters must sign up at the local bounty hunting board in order to be allowed to act as bounty hunter and impose the law.

But how would it work? Bounty hunters are not omniscent so they would not automatically know that a certain player is a wanted criminal. Once they sign the local bounty hunter board they may pick the active contracts. Every time a player is marked as "wanted" the active bounty hunters would get a signal on his bounty hunting panel, warning him that there is a new wanted criminal in the zone he is in that very moment.
A bounty hunter would be able to become hostile with a wanted criminal player only after he enters a certain "idetification radius", a distance from a player thought to give a good degree of safety to a fugitive. Once a Bounty hunter managed to "recognize" his bounty the hunt may begin and the bounty hunter may attempt to take the bounty down in order to claim the reward.

The bounty system is planned to give both sides fair opportunities to suceed. Once a player entered the bounty hunting system as criminal a timer will appear (the duration is matter of balancement). The timer will resets at each crime the criminal commits a crime and as long as the timer is active you may not leave the zone where you became a wanted criminal. This is ment to prevent a player to escape in order to give bounty hunters a chance to get the reward. From a lore point of view, you may justify this by thinking that your current region's borders are now guarded more than ever by guards that were placed there in order to get the fugutive.

A bounty hunter may have an hard time seeking a criminal for the whole region, in order to help him out and give more depth to the system, we should add a tracking system. Every time a bounty hunter opens the map he will see a radius, like in the normal quests, that indicates the approximate location of his target. In order to reduce the radius and make his search easyer he must collect evidences (footprints, speaking with informants or witnesses, etc). This process of gathering information will take some time, so the bounty hunter should moderate his search for information in order to not let too much time pass and the fugitive escape.

During the countdown, a criminal may not sell the stuff he stole and he may not erase his bounty (he can still use items to lower it), this is done to prevent an easy way to exploiut this system to make more money faster and prevent the criminal form leaving the hunt and not give a chance to bounty hunters.
An outlaw den is a sanctuaty: no bounty hunter can reach you there since they should be not allowed in there., but once a player enters the refuge the timer resets. This is another countermeasures to exploits.

This new system would give us the opportunity to add specific sets, give more importance to the awful dark broderhood and thielves guild sets and hopefully nourish the community with much more interactions between players.


Thank you for your patience in reading this!

TBois

I didn't read everything, but did you know that the justice system was supposed to have pvp involved with players as the law and criminals. Sadly they tabled the pvp part before implementation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241386/pvp-justice-system-canceled

Thevampirenight

I made a post on something like this but for a pve version of it. I rather have a pve version then a pvp version. There is a reason why they scraped the pvp enforcer system.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454283/pve-justice-enforcer-system#latest

TBois

As someone who enjoys pvp in this game, I'm still sad.

Algorax

TBois wrote: »

As someone who enjoys pvp in this game, I'm still sad.

Devs were very receptive about the Necromancer class, maybe they will hear this plea aswell!

danno8

I have no issues for any optional crimes system that people dream up. But all I can hear when I read these ideas is:

via Imgflip Meme Generator

MattT1988

This gets brought up a lot. It’s not going to happen.
I wouldn’t mind this, if you made it completely optional so people who bought the TG and DB DLC’s with the understanding that they were PvE DLC’s don’t get ripped off.
Another part of me thinks that it just isn’t worth the time and hassle considering how hard it is for ZOS to get this game function properly anyway.

Acrolas

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

VaranisArano

Its seems unnecessarily complex to me.

I'd go for a simple method where if you opt in, getting a bounty from an NPC spotting your crime flags you for PVP for as long as your bounty is active.

I suspect very few thieves and murderers would use it, even with extra rewards, and that Justice!RPers would get bored very quickly.

EpicRekkoning

I think you're onto something here. It would be fun to group with other thieves on missions. You would have to split the loot, but it would be harder for a hunter to take down a clan.

My big question would be the negative reward from getting caught. Does the hunter take cash from the player? What happens if they transferred the money to a bank or guild bank? I think there would have to be a system in place that prevents friends from abusing the system (one player draws a bounty and let's another player kill them). Maybe have a system in place where the thief is responsible for paying the bounty fees. Have it automatically deduct from money earned?

Also, I think the timer should stay on when the character logs back into the game to prevent players from logging off right after committing a crime.

Maybe make it so bounty hunters automatically pull aggro from thieves guild/dark brotherhood areas to give the criminals a safe haven if they can make it there.

I love this idea.

zaria

TBois wrote: »

As someone who enjoys pvp in this game, I'm still sad.

Yes, you kind of had to put yourself into the position and some might do it just to have others jump them

You could end up here by mistake like I did questing after the mud ball event quest and found I pulled lots of enemies as hit innocents was on and I was in an area there soldiers was fighting daedra, second mistake was porting to an major city after quest
Yes and if you went farming or hunting while the bounty wearied off others might kill you.
Adjust the heat limits and that would work well.

Necromancers probably is minor crimes like theft.
An minor issues with people using an default rotation in city quests.
Only use weapon, guild and legal abilities in towns, have an check for it.

MasterSpatula

This was one of the most miserable parts of SWG. Go out, lay down a harvester on a particularly nice node out in the wilderness, get ganked by a BH while in the middle of an animation you can't break out of. It was pretty miserable. And the BH sub-forum was often one big gloat fest.

But hell, at least in SWG you had to take part in PVP to get a bounty.

Katahdin

Too easily exploitable.

Hoards of bounty hunters camping a thieves den entrance to catch those with bounties on their heads

idk

OP wants to have a discussion about having a bounty system added to the game but without addressing that Zos already had plans to add a bounty system, but CHOSE to abandon that idea, and addressing the reasons Zos abandoned it the conversation in this thread is rather pointless outside of entertainment value.

Just saying since I expect the reason to have a serious debate is to convince Zos to take this path.

starkerealm

Katahdin wrote: »

Too easily exploitable.

Hoards of bounty hunters camping a thieves den entrance to catch those with bounties on their heads

Back when this was originally proposed, there were lots of entrances and exists from the Outlaws' Refuges. Figure roughly 8 or 9 for each major city. So, camping a single entrance for PvP wouldn't have been an option.

That said, the refuges in DLC zones weren't designed around that idea, so they'd need to be reworked.

Streega

PvP justice would be fun, but I can understand why it can't (or shouldn't) be implemented. However I would be happy with more "passive", non-PvP option: when you witness a crime, you can press synergy button and call the guards. The criminal gets a bounty, and if the guards manage to catch him/her, the bounty is yours.
Yes, I realise you can escape guards running backwards, but it would make thieving/murdering more challenging and less boring. Also, I'm sick and tired of finding piles of bodies everywhere and listening to those nauseous gurgling noises every time I do my writs in Vivec.
I stopped doing TG/DB dailies as there is completely no fun in it. I can pickpocket/murder anyone in plain sight and nobody bats an eye? Seriously, this is such an insult for my Master Thief Assassin Let's make the trade more challenging, but also a little more profitable in return.

Agalloch

Even WOW has an open PVP system and is doing fine.

Would be awesome if ZOS rethink about uncancel the other parts of the justice system.

idk

Agalloch wrote: »

Even WOW has an open PVP system and is doing fine.

Would be awesome if ZOS rethink about uncancel the other parts of the justice system.

If they cannot create a means for RP players to be given a priority to be in the same instance, as they said they were working on before the game released, do you really think they could create a PvP instance? The answer to that is logically no.

Zos also balked at the idea of an opt in for the bounty system which is essentially why they dropped it. I really doubt they choose to rethink that as it is more complicated to have PvP and PvE players in the same instance.

Knightpanther

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

Could not agree with them more, keep PvP away from PVE.

Be safe

Perwulf

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

Knightpanther

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

Yeah and good to hear that, this game was sold on PVE.

Be safe

idk

Perwulf wrote: »

There is only one reason why it won't work.

1. Too many casual non-pvp players.

LOL. Not the actual case at all. We all know very well this game was not advertised as an open world PvP game so turning it into one is not a very bright idea.

In other words, the real answer is there are not man hard core PvP players as is evident with the activity in this thread.

Jimmy

OP must be a new player. Justice System was originally supposed to include players as enforcers of the law, but the idea got scrapped due to feasibility issues.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

honestly...after all achievements at least for me I haven't even touched the justice system...I dont care about it anymore so unless we get the ability to murder players and get bounty for it...meh.

Algorax

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

That is not a reason: the system would be fully optional, therefore players who desire being safe would just need to not join the system. Since it would be a pvp based activity, you should adress unbalancement topics to the pvp section: if you belive that pvp is unbalanced than solve that problem, do not waste a good idea like this for another problem.

idk

Algorax wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

That is not a reason: the system would be fully optional, therefore players who desire being safe would just need to not join the system. Since it would be a pvp based activity, you should adress unbalancement topics to the pvp section: if you belive that pvp is unbalanced than solve that problem, do not waste a good idea like this for another problem.

Yes, we know and Zos is likely very much aware of opt in designs in MMORPG and yet still chose to not implement the PvP portion of the justice system they originally planned.

As I stated yesterday, unless their reason are not addressed then this discussion is rather less than serious.

Algorax

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its seems unnecessarily complex to me.

I'd go for a simple method where if you opt in, getting a bounty from an NPC spotting your crime flags you for PVP for as long as your bounty is active.

I suspect very few thieves and murderers would use it, even with extra rewards, and that Justice!RPers would get bored very quickly.

It is actually very direct and straighfoward it its process

If you are a bounty hunter then just:

1) Join the system
2) acquire a bounty
3) reduce the detect radius
4) take down the target

If you are a criminal then just:

1) Join the system
2) commit the crime
3) gain as much as you can
4) hide and run untill the timer erases and you can harvest the bountyful fruits of your work!

The promise of rewards (gold, sets, motif pages, you name it) and a surely BETTER justice system will most likely draw more ppl than the usual bunch of low lvl thungs you see pickpocketing in starting ones: this would renew the whole system

Algorax

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

I think you're onto something here. It would be fun to group with other thieves on missions. You would have to split the loot, but it would be harder for a hunter to take down a clan.

My big question would be the negative reward from getting caught. Does the hunter take cash from the player? What happens if they transferred the money to a bank or guild bank? I think there would have to be a system in place that prevents friends from abusing the system (one player draws a bounty and let's another player kill them). Maybe have a system in place where the thief is responsible for paying the bounty fees. Have it automatically deduct from money earned?

Also, I think the timer should stay on when the character logs back into the game to prevent players from logging off right after committing a crime.

Maybe make it so bounty hunters automatically pull aggro from thieves guild/dark brotherhood areas to give the criminals a safe haven if they can make it there.

I love this idea.

As in the normal system, where you lose your loot and pay the price for your actions, the same would happen here. The bounty hunter would not "steal" money form the criminal, but he would just be rewared with a bounty (gold, special chests, ets) because, afterall, killing a thief does not make what he stole the bounty hunter's property: the object would be confistcated.
For the timer not wearing off when offline, that's mandatory in order to prevent exploits. More than that, going offline should RESET it, so that a chased player would not be tempted to go offline and make a bounty hunter loose interest (because remember that your bounty could be picked by another bounty hunter the very moment you return online and the warning message appears on the bounty hunting panel).

Smitch_59

Algorax wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Optional or not, the PvP component of the Justice System is not going to be added.

"Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25563

That is not a reason: the system would be fully optional, therefore players who desire being safe would just need to not join the system. Since it would be a pvp based activity, you should adress unbalancement topics to the pvp section: if you belive that pvp is unbalanced than solve that problem, do not waste a good idea like this for another problem.

I think that if such a system were optional, only wanna-be bounty hunters would opt-in, while most thieves/murderers would opt-out. So the bounty hunters wouldn't have very many criminals to hunt.

Personally I'm glad ZOS nixed the pvp justice system.

Algorax

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This was one of the most miserable parts of SWG. Go out, lay down a harvester on a particularly nice node out in the wilderness, get ganked by a BH while in the middle of an animation you can't break out of. It was pretty miserable. And the BH sub-forum was often one big gloat fest.

But hell, at least in SWG you had to take part in PVP to get a bounty.

The system i just explained would be fully optional: you would not "randomly be assoulted by a bounty hunter" and even if you were to join the system, only bounty hunters (players who joined the system and bounty hunters) may interact with ou and only AFTER gathering your wanted manifesto.

Algorax

Katahdin wrote: »

Too easily exploitable.

Hoards of bounty hunters camping a thieves den entrance to catch those with bounties on their heads

Read better what i wrote.
Entering the thielves den, while providing a safe place, will reset the coultdawn, so it would be pointless for a thief just going there.
Besides, not all criminals are chased by the same bounty hunter, who must first pick the criminal's bounty contract and only then he may be hostile against the criminal. The pursuer alone cannot camp both exists and so the thief would always have an escape route.