A Visual of Khajiit's New Stealth Capability (Stacking is quite extreme)

TheMythicDawn

Vildebill wrote: »

It's just a tiny difference from how it works on live now. I can practically sit in High King Emerics knee and pickpocket his guards with above named sets on a Khajiit.

Why do you even bother? The only thing that can come out of this thread is a nerf to a playstyle a lot of people enjoy, which is PvE stealing. It's not like this give some advantage in PvP.

Apparently (according to some other posters here that haven't even bothered actually TESTING on the PTS) there is no difference between what is capable between the live and test server.

So if this broken crap gets nerfed you have nothing to lose. Since y'know, you can apparently do all this already. /s

and for the record, I have tested these changes on the PTS like @uFuqinwitme and it's very clear there is a noticeable difference between a full stealth Live build and a full stealth PTS build on khajiits.

it's very easy to test yourself y'know. but keep going around telling everyone you can do the same things on live

Tigerseye

Rake wrote: »

At least u can be olympics sprint champion if u roll dodge

Not really, unless they changed it?

It's only a 20% increase for 3 seconds.

Whereas, if you have bow equipped, you can currently get 30% increase for 4 seconds, via Hasty Retreat.

(Both of which are slower than actual Sprint, obviously.)

Robo_Hobo

I've always loved the stealthy passive for my thieves, and am happy to see it buffed for Khajiit, but sad to see it gone from Bosmer.

Part of me wants this to not be nerfed, though, but the other part realizes it is kinda OP for stealth lol.

If it does get nerfed, I hope it's just by adding a max reduction limit, but keeping the 5m on Khajiit (and returning it to Bosmer), that way, instead of needing to wear 5pc NME and 3pc NT, on a Khajiit you could just wear the 3pc NT (and all the relevant passives) to reach the cap, leaving the other set available to be something else. Or, well depends on what the cap would be.

And in that same manner, probably buff NME's radius reduction to 5m since only giving the same thing that 3pc NT gives is kinda weak. If buffed, would then allow non-khajiit races to still be as stealthy with the right gear.

Left4Daud

Well said and very reasonable requests @Robo_Hobo !

Vildebill

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

It's just a tiny difference from how it works on live now. I can practically sit in High King Emerics knee and pickpocket his guards with above named sets on a Khajiit.

Why do you even bother? The only thing that can come out of this thread is a nerf to a playstyle a lot of people enjoy, which is PvE stealing. It's not like this give some advantage in PvP.

Apparently (according to some other posters here that haven't even bothered actually TESTING on the PTS) there is no difference between what is capable between the live and test server.

So if this broken crap gets nerfed you have nothing to lose. Since y'know, you can apparently do all this already. /s

and for the record, I have tested these changes on the PTS like @uFuqinwitme and it's very clear there is a noticeable difference between a full stealth Live build and a full stealth PTS build on khajiits.

it's very easy to test yourself y'know. but keep going around telling everyone you can do the same things on live

No need to be rude and defensive Mr salty man. Of course there is a difference, it's 2 meters from live to PTS, I haven't said anything else, you might want to keep separate peoples opinions separate :P but it isn't a biggie since it's so easy as it is.

And you still aren't answering my question. What are you getting out of this? Nerfing it so there's a stealing radius hard cap no one want? No one is getting hurt by this...

TheMythicDawn

Vildebill wrote: »

No need to be rude and defensive Mr salty man. Of course there is a difference, it's 2 meters from live to PTS, I haven't said anything else, you might want to keep separate peoples opinions separate :P but it isn't a biggie since it's so easy as it is.

And you still aren't answering my question. What are you getting out of this? Nerfing it so there's a stealing radius hard cap no one want? No one is getting hurt by this...

a real thief would be up to the challenge, players like you just want ez mode. also its not for either you or me to decide what is good for the stealth aspect of the game, its for the DEVS to decide.

so please keep bumping this thread with your witty replies, you are keeping it visible and more likely for the devs to see your exploit

Vildebill

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

No need to be rude and defensive Mr salty man. Of course there is a difference, it's 2 meters from live to PTS, I haven't said anything else, you might want to keep separate peoples opinions separate :P but it isn't a biggie since it's so easy as it is.

And you still aren't answering my question. What are you getting out of this? Nerfing it so there's a stealing radius hard cap no one want? No one is getting hurt by this...

a real thief would be up to the challenge, players like you just want ez mode. also its not for either you or me to decide what is good for the stealth aspect of the game, its for the DEVS to decide.

so please keep bumping this thread with your witty replies, you are keeping it visible and more likely for the devs to see your exploit

"A real thief", "you just want ez mode". Hard to take you seriously Maybe you should look up the difference between fact and opinion, you seem to lack that knowledge.

TheMythicDawn

Vildebill wrote: »

"A real thief", "you just want ez mode". Hard to take you seriously Maybe you should look up the difference between fact and opinion, you seem to lack that knowledge.

No need to be rude and defensive Mr salty man. Of course there is a difference between fact and opinion. I haven't said anything else, you might want to keep separate peoples opinions separate :P but it isn't a biggie since it's so easy as it is.

Rake

Tigerseye wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

At least u can be olympics sprint champion if u roll dodge

Not really, unless they changed it?

It's only a 20% increase for 3 seconds.

Whereas, if you have bow equipped, you can currently get 30% increase for 4 seconds, via Hasty Retreat.

(Both of which are slower than actual Sprint, obviously.)

So, if you dodge with bow equuipped and then sprint you get +30% speed from hasty and +20% on top of sprinting.
Worthy of a gold medal

GrumpyDuckling

TheMythicDawn wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

It's just a tiny difference from how it works on live now. I can practically sit in High King Emerics knee and pickpocket his guards with above named sets on a Khajiit.

Why do you even bother? The only thing that can come out of this thread is a nerf to a playstyle a lot of people enjoy, which is PvE stealing. It's not like this give some advantage in PvP.

Apparently (according to some other posters here that haven't even bothered actually TESTING on the PTS) there is no difference between what is capable between the live and test server.

So if this broken crap gets nerfed you have nothing to lose. Since y'know, you can apparently do all this already. /s

and for the record, I have tested these changes on the PTS like @uFuqinwitme and it's very clear there is a noticeable difference between a full stealth Live build and a full stealth PTS build on khajiits.

it's very easy to test yourself y'know. but keep going around telling everyone you can do the same things on live

How is it "broken?" You're talking about a build that has to use 8 out of 12 armor slots to become a max stealth build. That means dedicating 2/3 of a build to simply achieve sneak radius reduction.

That's a lot to invest, especially in a game that allows someone to become completely invisible by slotting one skill.

TheMythicDawn

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

How is it "broken?" You're talking about a build that has to use 8 out of 12 armor slots to become a max stealth build. That means dedicating 2/3 of a build to simply achieve sneak radius reduction.

That's a lot to invest, especially in a game that allows someone to become completely invisible by slotting one skill.

It's broken if it's not working in the manner that the developers intended. In my opinion it isn't, in your opinion it is. Neither of these opinions matter.

The devs will decide if stacking sneak in this capacity is fine for the game or not. If they nerf it though, you guys will at least be partially to blame for clamoring for it so hard. I'm sure all the people that fought for speed stacking when you could run faster than fully trained horses felt the same way. That their specialized dedicated build wasn't broken.

guess we'll see

Lord_Eomer

Khajit need buff and few are even calling for Adjustements!

lol...i highly doubt khajit stealth will be any issue.

They are mostly thieves by profession and if getting caught easily then what is meant to be a thief?

Katahdin

I play a lot of Khajiit stam characters.
The biggest issue is sustain, not sneaking.
The thread that describes the testing people did shows how the lack of sustain and rng of crit chance will make Khajiit the worst choice for stam dps.

I would much rather have more sustain to smooth out dps than an extra 2 m sneak distance that we don't need.

Jaraal

What people are failing to realize is that stealth detection is percentage based, not a flat number. And it doesn't work the way most people think.


Khajiit racial grants a +5% to pickpocket. When my Khajiit and my Bosmer crouch behind the same mark, what the Bosmer may read as 80% chance of success will be 85% for the Khajiit. When the tooltip says "reduce detection radius by 5m" it doesn't mean you have a 100% chance to go undetected in that range, it means that within that range you have a chance to NOT be detected 100% of the time. The guard has a smaller chance to see you as the radius decreases, but that does not mean he now has zero chance to detect you.

In the above photographs, the detection RNG (weighted by the armor and racial passives) is not in the guards favor. But I guarantee you if you recreate the same encounter 100 times, you will at some point get caught.

(I have 5 max Leger/TG/DB thieves with Black Market Mogul many times over. I'm probably not the best thief in the game, but I have had some experience to draw upon.)

GrumpyDuckling

From PTS 4.3.2

• Feline Ambush: Decreased the reduction of your Stealth radius to 3m from 5m.
• "The bonus to the stealth radius was also slightly over tuned and allowed you to sneak too effectively. Now, you shouldn't be able to sneak in the face of guards and wave unless you've heavily invested into sneaking with gear and other passives."

Looks like this thread achieved its purpose -- but I still don't think the nerf needed to happen because the proposed 5 meter radius wasn't wrecking any balance by giving players unfair combat advantages over others.

If the racial passive stayed at 5 meters then at least Khajiits could have dropped either 3 pieces of Night Terror or 5 pieces of Night Mother's Embrace from their builds and maintained current live status, which would have been great because it could have encouraged players to equip more fun sets instead of using up 8 out 12 armor slots for sneak radius reduction.

But no, apparently 5 meters was "over tuned" if a player decided to also consume 8 out of 12 of their armor slots to build into pure radius detection, which seems like such a weak argument to make because the player is sacrificing other bonuses/stats in favor of getting 2 more meters of reduction from their sneak.

Sigh, all that happened with the reduction being nerfed from 5 meters back to 3 meters is that players now have less options. I hate nerfs like this.

max_only

If it doesn’t make it to live, does it count as a nerf? Sounds more like an adjustment.

GrumpyDuckling

max_only wrote: »

If it doesn’t make it to live, does it count as a nerf? Sounds more like an adjustment.

This is a PTS forum... so yes, it's a nerf from the previous version of PTS.

TheMythicDawn

[edited for bait]

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

Wtf LMAO

Does this mean that all the Stamina Necromancers are gonna be Khajiits haha?

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

SodanTok wrote: »

I vote to nerf this back to 3m and instead give khajiit some sustain.

As much as this is cool and would be a huge PvP buff for NBs so we don't need to use cloak so much, I agree. Khajiit sustain is horrible, at least on Live. That's what I hope to see buffed on PTS is sustain.

Left4Daud

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Looks like this thread achieved its purpose -- but I still don't think the nerf needed to happen because the proposed 5 meter radius wasn't wrecking any balance by giving players unfair combat advantages over others.

Sigh, all that happened with the reduction being nerfed from 5 meters back to 3 meters is that players now have less options. I hate nerfs like this.

You should be upset with the devs then, for adding something like this without testing it themselves first. Had they done that, they would have seen how it performed, and avoided making that adjustment. Then this thread wouldn't exist, my testing wouldn't exist, and you wouldn't feel like you lost something that you never had anyways.

Your animosity towards me in this thread is completely unnecessary and inappropriate. I did what people do on the PTS, I test stuff the devs can't be arsed to test themselves, and present the information. Any changes that come from this information is completely on the devs for choosing to QA in this model.

Cheer up duckling.

max_only

Left4Daud wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Looks like this thread achieved its purpose -- but I still don't think the nerf needed to happen because the proposed 5 meter radius wasn't wrecking any balance by giving players unfair combat advantages over others.

Sigh, all that happened with the reduction being nerfed from 5 meters back to 3 meters is that players now have less options. I hate nerfs like this.

You should be upset with the devs then, for adding something like this without testing it themselves first. Had they done that, they would have seen how it performed, and avoided making that adjustment. Then this thread wouldn't exist, my testing wouldn't exist, and you wouldn't feel like you lost something that you never had anyways.

Your animosity towards me in this thread is completely unnecessary and inappropriate. I did what people do on the PTS, I test stuff the devs can't be arsed to test themselves, and present the information. Any changes that come from this information is completely on the devs for choosing to QA in this model.

Cheer up duckling.

I say! Boom shakalaka to you good sir!

Vapirko

Id have done something different with Khajits. Maybe like an Always Land On Your Feet passive, where you take massively reduced fall damage/none at all. Would make for some fun shenanigans in PvP. Or a Nine Lives passive that lets you resurrect for free once every nine deaths.

GrumpyDuckling

Left4Daud wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Looks like this thread achieved its purpose -- but I still don't think the nerf needed to happen because the proposed 5 meter radius wasn't wrecking any balance by giving players unfair combat advantages over others.

Sigh, all that happened with the reduction being nerfed from 5 meters back to 3 meters is that players now have less options. I hate nerfs like this.

You should be upset with the devs then, for adding something like this without testing it themselves first. Had they done that, they would have seen how it performed, and avoided making that adjustment. Then this thread wouldn't exist, my testing wouldn't exist, and you wouldn't feel like you lost something that you never had anyways.

Your animosity towards me in this thread is completely unnecessary and inappropriate. I did what people do on the PTS, I test stuff the devs can't be arsed to test themselves, and present the information. Any changes that come from this information is completely on the devs for choosing to QA in this model.

Cheer up duckling.

There was no animosity directed towards your person in this thread, nor was anything that I wrote inappropriate.

In post #33 I constructed an argument saying that I did not believe your intentions for posting this thread seemed as objective as you made them appear. That was clearly skepticism of your intentions for posting the thread, not animosity towards your person.

In post #76 I suggested that this thread appeared to achieve the objective that I believe it sought out to achieve. I also stated my opinion that the reduction from 5 meters to 3 meters left players with less options, and that I don't like nerfs that result in players having less options, especially since the suggested 5 meters didn't affect combat balance in a way that gave players an unfair advantage over others. Again, not animosity towards your person.

Incorrectly accusing me of having animosity towards you is the only inappropriate comment I see in either of our posts.

Left4Daud

@GrumpyDuckling well then I will extend a formal apology to you and say that I wish you no hard feelings. It’s sometimes hard to tell the nature of a persons tone simply through text so sorry for that.

For what it’s worth I will reiterate that I never asked or intended for this thread to result in any nerfs. I have both a Bosmer and Khajiit on Live with all stealth stacking builds so this change does effect how I will be able to build and play these characters going forward.

The devs have said they are aware players want access to sneaking specialities outside of racial bonuses, so we’ll see what that entails.

GrumpyDuckling

Left4Daud wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling well then I will extend a formal apology to you and say that I wish you no hard feelings. It’s sometimes hard to tell the nature of a persons tone simply through text so sorry for that.

For what it’s worth I will reiterate that I never asked or intended for this thread to result in any nerfs. I have both a Bosmer and Khajiit on Live with all stealth stacking builds so this change does effect how I will be able to build and play these characters going forward.

The devs have said they are aware players want access to sneaking specialities outside of racial bonuses, so we’ll see what that entails.

Thank you. I also apologize if my words caused you any distress. I often put a lot of effort into my word choice, so if at any point my wording seems ill-suited, then please do let me know.

I have a great deal of respect for how you constructed your response, and I am glad that we could conclude our exchange in this manner. Best wishes.

max_only

Time to recreate this thread with the new set.

Ghost cats are going to take over Tamriel.

GrumpyDuckling

max_only wrote: »

Time to recreate this thread with the new set.

Ghost cats are going to take over Tamriel.

If people want to devote ALL 12 of their armor slots to stealth, please just let them. It doesn't ruin balance against other players.

max_only

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Time to recreate this thread with the new set.

Ghost cats are going to take over Tamriel.

If people want to devote ALL 12 of their armor slots to stealth, please just let them. It doesn't ruin balance against other players.

What’s your point?
Stealth players already devote all their armor slots to stealth sets.
No one should be able to sit on top of guards and mobs for any reason. Zos is sticking to their guns with that nonsense they came up with “stealth is not a universal mechanic, therefore we are taking it away from half the players who cared.”

GrumpyDuckling

max_only wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Time to recreate this thread with the new set.

Ghost cats are going to take over Tamriel.

If people want to devote ALL 12 of their armor slots to stealth, please just let them. It doesn't ruin balance against other players.

What’s your point?
Stealth players already devote all their armor slots to stealth sets.
No one should be able to sit on top of guards and mobs for any reason. Zos is sticking to their guns with that nonsense they came up with “stealth is not a universal mechanic, therefore we are taking it away from half the players who cared.”

I don't know why I need to explain the point, again. I was clear the first time. See: "If people want to devote ALL 12 of their armor slots to stealth, please just let them. It doesn't ruin balance against other players."

You are wrong -- stealth players do not already devote all of their armor slots to stealth sets. The context of this thread is clearly about radius reduction, and on live only 5 pieces of Night Mother and 3 pieces of Night Terror provide radius reduction. 8 out of 12 is not the same as 12 out of 12.

The rest of your post is either opinion or an inaccurate ZOS quote.