Race PvE DPS Difference Tests for both Stamina and Magicka, Results and Graphical Breakdown

MLGProPlayer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , I replied to the point in another thread, with Liko's parses. On those parses, yes, khajiits even overshoots some with raid buffs, but the sustain difference with altmer (beats me why) was huge on the metrics report. Both parses were unsustainable, but khajiit is behind by a huge margin, so everything will boil down to whether khajiit will be able to sustain in real situation, or will have to trade the advantage away for regen food (and so max stats).

Liko said they didn't really notice a difference sustaining between Khajiit and Altmer. Neither is great and the difference on paper is 75 vs. 192 recovery. It's the same as Altmer vs. Dunmer on live now. The sustain difference is inconsequential because the DPS difference is significant.

susmitds

Updated with Traits and Enchants info and Conclusion.

Conclusion

The races are all fairly close to each other in the DPS regard, meaning ZOS has been successful in their overall goal. However, there is a certain disparity between the races for a DD role apart from their DPS, that it is pretty significant. The lower the natural sustain of a race, the more unforgivable it's rotation becomes. In simple terms, races like Breton, Bosmer, Redguard can afford to make mistakes and recover without any significant loss of DPS. On the other hand for an Imperial, Khajiit or Dunmer, a slight slip up can mean running out faster than intended and going on a heavy attack rota causing a huge DPS hit.

Also, this is a purely solo-buffed DPS test. In groups, DPS might vary somewhat more, group buffs tend to introduce more standard deviation. Depending on the rate at which the group buffs are being used, i.e. Warhorn Frequency and Orbs/Shard efficiency, the ranking are changed. In a perfect group, where nobody suffers from sustain issues and Major Force up-time is maximum, Khajiit will get a better ranking, possibly number one for magicka beating Altmer by a small margin, Dunmer and Breton following a bit after that. On the stamina side however, it is even closer, with all raw damage races, Orc, Khajiit and Dunmer staying very close, followed by Bosmer and Redguard. The DPS races are still however very close, infact. The thing that is happening here is that the better group, the lesser the chance of mistakes and if sustain issues are cancelled out by support, the raw damage races can go all out. It is very similar to the situation between Redguard and Khajiit on Live, where Khajiit has the theoritical better DPS but Redguard is far more forgiving. This changes depending on whether the said class has critical damage or not. Nightblades and Templars favor Khajiit the most, where as other classes makes Orc/Altmer/Dunmer shine out a bit more.

FrancisCrawford

cheifsoap wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Didn't test Nord eh?

We already know our place as any aspiring Nord DPS player does as well. Last in Magicka and Last in Stamina.

However we will probably be first in PVP and first in ranking which is both things I play my Nord Warden for.

But...but...Shalidor

What did Shalidor ever SUCCEED at?

Silver_Strider

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Didn't test Nord eh?

We already know our place as any aspiring Nord DPS player does as well. Last in Magicka and Last in Stamina.

However we will probably be first in PVP and first in ranking which is both things I play my Nord Warden for.

But...but...Shalidor

What did Shalidor ever SUCCEED at?

He made a Labyrinth of Death to weed out weak Arch Mage candidates

susmitds

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , I replied to the point in another thread, with Liko's parses. On those parses, yes, khajiits even overshoots some with raid buffs, but the sustain difference with altmer (beats me why) was huge on the metrics report. Both parses were unsustainable, but khajiit is behind by a huge margin, so everything will boil down to whether khajiit will be able to sustain in real situation, or will have to trade the advantage away for regen food (and so max stats).

Yeah, I decided to check group DPS with 3 guildies for Warhorn, Orbs and Shards support and got a a similar result, hence updated the conclusion with my findings.
Khajiit came out on top with around 400 DPS higher than Altmer (2nd in my tests) followed by Breton (150 lesser than Altmer). However, the results were too inconsistent to create a viable graph. Critical damage in general, brings in a lot of standard deviation and error, based on luck alone. Like if you are lucky, you might get all the Bow Procs and Impales crit and come out with massive damage results. The inverse can also happen.
Having run with that player before, I know that Liko is a better PvEr than me and most others for that matter. However the more DPS tests you make, the average comes fairly closer.

Galarthor

So Bretons are dealing more damage than Altmers and yet they are crying all over the forums how they need more buffs b/c Altmers will be dealing so much more damage than them!

MLGProPlayer

Galarthor wrote: »

So Bretons are dealing more damage than Altmers and yet they are crying all over the forums how they need more buffs b/c Altmers will be dealing so much more damage than them!

Altmer has to use spell absorb enchant while Breton can use spell damage enchant. Their DPS and sustain come out pretty close in the end.

susmitds

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

So Bretons are dealing more damage than Altmers and yet they are crying all over the forums how they need more buffs b/c Altmers will be dealing so much more damage than them!

Altmer has to use spell absorb enchant while Breton can use spell damage enchant. Their DPS and sustain come out pretty close in the end.

In perfect groups, Altmer will beat Breton by a small and insignificant number, as Altmers can afford to use Spell Damage enchant as well with group support.

Soul_Demon

First off, thanks for taking the time to test and publish the results. That being said why would you test only a very few races in MDPS and the same for STDPS? Seems if you want to test this you MUST use every race for both in order to see who and where the races truly sit- narrow set of parameters for races only reinforces suspected 'best' at those jobs- it doesn't actually 'test' the hypothesis.

LukosCreyden

Bosmer changes were much needed. Glad to see them doing so well! Thank you very much for the testing.

Carbonised

However you wanna fry the fish, Dunmers being hammered down from a shared 1st place for magic races to now a 4th, is a straight up nerf any way you look at it. It's not a "rebalance" like other classes, it's a straight up nerf to the magicka dps in order to boost their stamina value instead.
This patch has done nothing at all to address the balance issues, when it comes to magicka dps, it has just nerfed Dunmers down from being a top race to being far behind the others, while leaving Bretons and Altmer at the top, and elevating Khajiit above Dunmer too, as your own graph shows.
Of course Dunmer magicka players are gonna be PO'ed about this.

BigBadVolk

I still propose that give Dark elves a sustain passive something like if you deal fire/poison damage you get back x stam/mag ir smth like that instead of the 600 health bonus

Strider__Roshin

susmitds wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Didn't test Nord eh?

Should be close to Imperial IMO. The extra ultimate is useful for DPS as well.

That's what I was thinking. I'm wanting to test a Nord 2H, Carve, War Machine stamblade build. I'm sure it would be great.

Heimpai

So what would be better for a pvp main who sometimes pve Breton or Altmer? I’m new to magblade and sometimes i struggle with sustain

Yamenstein

BigBadVolk wrote: »

I still propose that give Dark elves a sustain passive something like if you deal fire/poison damage you get back x stam/mag ir smth like that instead of the 600 health bonus

They just makes it class specific though... How is that fair ?

They need to get away from deal X type of damage then you get Y or do more Z damage.

Imagine if Altmer got more resources from doing lightning damage. People would go nuts.

Maybe all these changes might force everyone to build differently so that they all reach the same dps or sustain with different methods. Ideally.

nsmurfer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Liko gets noticeably higher parses on Khajiit than Altmer/Breton. I'm guessing yours were solo parses?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HGXW_B7EE

The balance between Breton and Altmer seems great. But Khajiit appear to be a bit overtuned.

So you were saying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAsgDwnALw&t=40s

Watch his actual tests instead of first impressions and tell me again that Khajiit is overtuned.

SaintSubwayy

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The_Yellow_King wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DjMuscleboy02 , well, then we have our amazingly diverse group composition laid out for the next half a year or more. ^^

All Khajjit nightblades, I'm so glad these race changes will be introducing a more diverse raiding environment.

I dont understand this. His numbers show 500 dps separating the top 5 stamnb, and 600 dps separating the top 4 nb.

That is extremely close! Why would we see an army of kajiit aside from the fact that they are coming out with Elsweyr?

It was more or less a joke, however his results are close without Major Force. Applying Major Force with Khajjit crit bumps them up quite a bit.

I find it more humorous that there will still be little race diversity, rather just a shift in the "meta" race despite ZOS' best attempts to balance it. It's an MMO, there's always going to be a bis something.

Crit is tricky to balance. But as things stand, there would be no reason to pick any race other than Khajiit for endgame magicka DPS (not sure if it's the same for stamina). Altmer and Breton are insanely close and balanced quite nicely (Breton is probably a bit better, but the difference is so small it doesn't matter). I'm guessing a small nerf to Khajiit crit% would put them in line with the others (maybe 5-6%).

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The_Yellow_King wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DjMuscleboy02 , well, then we have our amazingly diverse group composition laid out for the next half a year or more. ^^

All Khajjit nightblades, I'm so glad these race changes will be introducing a more diverse raiding environment.

I dont understand this. His numbers show 500 dps separating the top 5 stamnb, and 600 dps separating the top 4 nb.

That is extremely close! Why would we see an army of kajiit aside from the fact that they are coming out with Elsweyr?

It was more or less a joke, however his results are close without Major Force. Applying Major Force with Khajjit crit bumps them up quite a bit.

I find it more humorous that there will still be little race diversity, rather just a shift in the "meta" race despite ZOS' best attempts to balance it. It's an MMO, there's always going to be a bis something.

Crit is tricky to balance. But as things stand, there would be no reason to pick any race other than Khajiit for endgame magicka DPS (not sure if it's the same for stamina). Altmer and Breton are insanely close and balanced quite nicely (Breton is probably a bit better, but the difference is so small it doesn't matter). I'm guessing a small nerf to Khajiit crit% would put them in line with the others (maybe 5-6%).

Considering Likos testing on Magplar, where kahjit pulled 0,6% more DPS shows, that 8% crit is a very good spot.

Even removing 1% would probably turn the table arround, and Kahjit would fall behind Altmer and Breton by a little bit.
Not to mention 2-3% less Crit.

What IMO is missing in this thread is those tests, but for EACH class / resource Combo.

so we know which race is best on which class with which resource (stam or mag, playstle)

Jeah its close, but one race wil be BIS for one playstyle while another is better on that class ect.
would be interessting to know


I think is pretty obvious that ah Kahjit is better on a NB or Templar, since they have passive critmodifiers, other classes have no access to.
While other classes might profit more of flatstats like 2k magick (Petsorc in mind)

susmitds

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The_Yellow_King wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DjMuscleboy02 , well, then we have our amazingly diverse group composition laid out for the next half a year or more. ^^

All Khajjit nightblades, I'm so glad these race changes will be introducing a more diverse raiding environment.

I dont understand this. His numbers show 500 dps separating the top 5 stamnb, and 600 dps separating the top 4 nb.

That is extremely close! Why would we see an army of kajiit aside from the fact that they are coming out with Elsweyr?

It was more or less a joke, however his results are close without Major Force. Applying Major Force with Khajjit crit bumps them up quite a bit.

I find it more humorous that there will still be little race diversity, rather just a shift in the "meta" race despite ZOS' best attempts to balance it. It's an MMO, there's always going to be a bis something.

Crit is tricky to balance. But as things stand, there would be no reason to pick any race other than Khajiit for endgame magicka DPS (not sure if it's the same for stamina). Altmer and Breton are insanely close and balanced quite nicely (Breton is probably a bit better, but the difference is so small it doesn't matter). I'm guessing a small nerf to Khajiit crit% would put them in line with the others (maybe 5-6%).

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

The_Yellow_King wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DjMuscleboy02 , well, then we have our amazingly diverse group composition laid out for the next half a year or more. ^^

All Khajjit nightblades, I'm so glad these race changes will be introducing a more diverse raiding environment.

I dont understand this. His numbers show 500 dps separating the top 5 stamnb, and 600 dps separating the top 4 nb.

That is extremely close! Why would we see an army of kajiit aside from the fact that they are coming out with Elsweyr?

It was more or less a joke, however his results are close without Major Force. Applying Major Force with Khajjit crit bumps them up quite a bit.

I find it more humorous that there will still be little race diversity, rather just a shift in the "meta" race despite ZOS' best attempts to balance it. It's an MMO, there's always going to be a bis something.

Crit is tricky to balance. But as things stand, there would be no reason to pick any race other than Khajiit for endgame magicka DPS (not sure if it's the same for stamina). Altmer and Breton are insanely close and balanced quite nicely (Breton is probably a bit better, but the difference is so small it doesn't matter). I'm guessing a small nerf to Khajiit crit% would put them in line with the others (maybe 5-6%).

Considering Likos testing on Magplar, where kahjit pulled 0,6% more DPS shows, that 8% crit is a very good spot.

Even removing 1% would probably turn the table arround, and Kahjit would fall behind Altmer and Breton by a little bit.
Not to mention 2-3% less Crit.

What IMO is missing in this thread is those tests, but for EACH class / resource Combo.

so we know which race is best on which class with which resource (stam or mag, playstle)

Jeah its close, but one race wil be BIS for one playstyle while another is better on that class ect.
would be interessting to know

People overreact. On classes without Critical Damage bonus, khajiit falls out of favor fast.

xMovingTarget

Good tests. But you destroyed the conclusion by using different food on breton, redguard etc. If you want to compare. You use the same or you you make your tests false. This does not reflect the racial differences.
This does not give a fair comparism. Since it increases the resource pool, so damage.

Azyle1

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

susmitds

Azyle1 wrote: »

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

Honestly, from my understanding, the results are coming so close, I would say it would do great. Sure, it might lose on perfect conditions, by what 600 DPS? Everything is good enough.

zaria

Azyle1 wrote: »

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

Stamwarden has good sustain making that an good class for warden.

richo262

susmitds wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Didn't test Nord eh?

Should be close to Imperial IMO. The extra ultimate is useful for DPS as well.

Problem is, unless your test dummy is Chucky, it won't hit back to generate the ultimate.

susmitds

richo262 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Didn't test Nord eh?

Should be close to Imperial IMO. The extra ultimate is useful for DPS as well.

Problem is, unless your test dummy is Chucky, it won't hit back to generate the ultimate.

Exactly the reason I didn't do it for my tests. It won't do them justice and these tests feel like a chore real fast.

Derra

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

So Bretons are dealing more damage than Altmers and yet they are crying all over the forums how they need more buffs b/c Altmers will be dealing so much more damage than them!

Altmer has to use spell absorb enchant while Breton can use spell damage enchant. Their DPS and sustain come out pretty close in the end.

So how would the pro raiding community adress the issue with crit racial on critdmg classes (templar nb)?

Imo you can´t simply reduce khajiit crit because this will make cats significantly weaker in other forms of endgame content (where minor and major force are not given/availabe) and on other classes.

Azyle1

susmitds wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

Honestly, from my understanding, the results are coming so close, I would say it would do great. Sure, it might lose on perfect conditions, by what 600 DPS? Everything is good enough.

@susmitds

Thanks. So really they have done a pretty good job of balancing races, stam and mag?

I also noticed in other threads that you were working on group parses, yes?

I'd like to ask, if you know, I assume Khajiit sustain is fine in a group? It's fine now on live in a group as well.

susmitds

Azyle1 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

Honestly, from my understanding, the results are coming so close, I would say it would do great. Sure, it might lose on perfect conditions, by what 600 DPS? Everything is good enough.

@susmitds

Thanks. So really they have done a pretty good job of balancing races, stam and mag?

I also noticed in other threads that you were working on group parses, yes?

I'd like to ask, if you know, I assume Khajiit sustain is fine in a group? It's fine now on live in a group as well.

I would personally use a Stamina Recovery enchant on a Bloodthirsty ring with blue food, if ZOS doesnt change Khajiit sustain. If they do bring to say around 130, it will effectively cancel out the enchant nerfs impact and then it won't really be needed anymore.

Azyle1

susmitds wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

@susmitds

Khajiit wouldn't be good on a stamwarden? That is the next class I was leveling and I'll keep it Khajiit but for some reason I figured that would be a good combo for Khajiit.

Honestly, from my understanding, the results are coming so close, I would say it would do great. Sure, it might lose on perfect conditions, by what 600 DPS? Everything is good enough.

@susmitds

Thanks. So really they have done a pretty good job of balancing races, stam and mag?

I also noticed in other threads that you were working on group parses, yes?

I'd like to ask, if you know, I assume Khajiit sustain is fine in a group? It's fine now on live in a group as well.

I would personally use a Stamina Recovery enchant on a Bloodthirsty ring with blue food, if ZOS doesnt change Khajiit sustain. If they do bring to say around 130, it will effectively cancel out the enchant nerfs impact and then it won't really be needed anymore.

And that doesn't sound like a HUGE dps loss. Can't dps if you cannot sustain. Good stuff @susmitds - thank you.

Derra

I´ll pay 100k gold on the PC EU for proper detailed magsorc testing with and without pets

naga.

@susmitds, thanks for the effort put into those tests and sharing your results!

Currently on live, you can sustain on a Khajiit stamblade running blue food provided you ensure Leeching Strikes is not recast too early and Relentless Focus has 100% uptime.

The fact you had Camoran Throne on for your tests and still found sustain problematic is worrying to say the least. It clearly shows that with the enchant nerf Khajiit sustain has hit rock bottom and the proposed 75 stamina regen is a complete joke.

I get it that ZOS want to make Khajiits viable as magDDs and clearly they've succeeded with that. However, the new 3-regen passive just does not make any sense considering the game does not reward hybrid builds. In my opinion, the faulty logic behind it is the reason why you faced sustain issues on both Khajiit magblade and stamblade.

Let's be honest, nobody's gonna pick a race that in a sub-optimal group will have to heavy weave pre-Summerset style if there are two and three other races with better sustain available for magDDs and stamDDs, respectively. The 3-regen passive needs to be reworked to reflect that you don't need sustain for both resources at the same time since the use of the other/secondary resource is limited and situational (e.g. casting Shadow Image or Shadow Cloak in PvP on stamblades). If ZOS are determined to stick to their mathematical race-power formula, they should change that passive so that it grants 150 magicka or stamina recovery depending on which resource is higher. We already have two abilities that people rely on extensively to help with sustain that work like this (i.e. Shards and Orbs) why can't a racial passive work the same way? That should resolve the sustain issue for both magicka and stamina builds.