They're actually going through with the racial changes...

Seraphayel

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Sanctuary_Reaper wrote: »

You can still buff flame damage by using set gear for Dunmer magdks, maybe adding a flat number to flame damage in the passives would of been better than removing it altogether, anyway one example below you could use.

Silks of the Sun

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities.

Sure. Some of our Dunmer were already using that. Kinda irrelevant to the details of the Dunmer analysis. Dunmer just contribute a lot less now to many current builds, esp DD magDKs. Changing gear won't change that.

You don't see any problems with Dunmer being the "only" choice for DK because of the + fire damage? It's good that ZOS finally gets rid of the elemental bonuses. Was a nice flavour but wasn't good for the game at all.

Nairinhe

I'll just leave it here (emphasis mine):

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings everyone! First the combat team would like to thank you all for the feedback you’ve provided, and we want you to know that we’ve been closely monitoring the direction of the conversations thus far, and will be discussing them internally for potential adjustments if the feedback stays similar after PTS goes live. While we won’t be making any changes for the first PTS, there might be tweaks for PTS week 2.

IzzyStardust

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dunmer magblade dps, consider changing her to High Elf, or quit playing her at all if it gets too, too bad.

Seraphayel

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

IzzyStardust

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

Oi I edited that; and I never said anyone FORCED me - I said I don’t like it.

Don’t infer things into my words and then quote me to argue with your own inference. ❤️

Thanks!

Slack

So, just because Dark Elfes lose Stamina you have lost all your interest in playing?
That's either completely stupid, or you have found out that bashing on Updates is a good way to collect forum stars

And on top it you haven't even read the patch notes correctly.
L-O-L

Tigerseye

NVM.

dovakiin5574

On PTS stamina Khajiits are looking at a 4k dps loss using the Live set/skill/cp meta. Only thing that needs to happen is adjustments to said things and they'll gain that 4k back. Plus you can now have Magicka Khajiits which in my testing does around 30k again using Live set/skill/cp meta, after adjustments are made, they'll be kicking it with the big boys of Magicka. (Only improvement I can suggest to the passives is up that mag/Stam recovery from 75 to 125 while lowering the health recovery from 100 to 75.) All I'm seeing here is more build diversity. Which imo isn't a bad thing. All of these changes are much more in line with lore and are much more balanced. Now maybe we'll stop seeing 90% Redguards and High Elves and everyone just using the same 2 sets.

shaielzafine

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

Nobody is forcing them, but it's quite possible people that aren't you might actually enjoy RPing or min-maxing or whatever. Dunmer are basically high elves that have more affinity with fire damage skills, why should they be doing less magic damage than Khajiit (thief race) wielding inferno staves? lol. It's an MMORPG, there's a role playing element. There's also a multiplayer element where you go to PvP and sometimes, the little % passives add up in a fight. Or in hardcore pve, sometimes people actually try to get the most out of their builds that they've spent months or years on. I don't see the point of racial changes if some races are still better than others to do certain things. In comparable mmo games like GW2 & FFXIV the racial passives vary but don't matter. Is that what ESO is trying to accomplish? Because I don't get it. The racial tokens were on sale for what reason then? They literally just shuffled around which race is better for mag / stam / tanking.

Seraphayel

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

Oi I edited that; and I never said anyone FORCED me - I said I don’t like it.

Don’t infer things into my words and then quote me to argue with your own inference. ❤️

Thanks!

You don't like Khajiit - okay, that's true as it's your perception.

You want to shelve DPS because you think Khajiit might be the better option and you're recent character (Dunmer) doesn't fit Magicka DPS anymore - this is true on your part but generally false.

My post just reduced what you said to a basic premise: you don't have you play Khajiit to still be a viable Magicka DPS because your race, in this case, doesn't matter as much as you make it look like.

Seraphayel

shaielzafine wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

Nobody is forcing them, but it's quite possible people that aren't you might actually enjoy RPing or min-maxing or whatever. Dunmer are basically high elves that have more affinity with fire damage skills, why should they be doing less magic damage than Khajiit (thief race) wielding inferno staves? lol. It's an MMORPG, there's a role playing element. There's also a multiplayer element where you go to PvP and sometimes, the little % passives add up in a fight. Or in hardcore pve, sometimes people actually try to get the most out of their builds that they've spent months or years on. I don't see the point of racial changes if some races are still better than others to do certain things. In comparable mmo games like GW2 & FFXIV the racial passives vary but don't matter. Is that what ESO is trying to accomplish? Because I don't get it. The racial tokens were on sale for what reason then? They literally just shuffled around which race is better for mag / stam / tanking.

Why do have Dunmer a basic affinity for fire magic - where is that sentiment from? Obviously not from any other TES game, this was just a case in ESO and gets removed now.

Khajiit do have magical affinity as well. And Dunmer are not Altmer when it comes to magic capabilities.

They brought races closer together and opened more viable options for builds.

You all act like they totally destroyed Magicka Dunmer or Stamina Khajiit although both is factually false. They just opened up most races for both build types (wish they'd done it for all races though, like Stamina for Altmer or Magicka for Nord) which is a good thing. The problem is they didn't go the way till the end. Making the OP meta builds weaker in favour of new builds that are just slightly stronger now is the best they could do.

IzzyStardust

Slack wrote: »

So, just because Dark Elfes lose Stamina you have lost all your interest in playing?
That's either completely stupid, or you have found out that bashing on Updates is a good way to collect forum stars

And on top it you haven't even read the patch notes correctly.
L-O-L

I don’t know to whom you are referring but
I refer mainly to fire dmg passives :-) and I’m not bashing on updates.

I also don’t want to play any lizard/boar/cat

It is either one way or the other.

Either I’ll play my dunmer or not. It’s not life or death for me. It’s just I’ll play that character or not play her. :-)

Arrodisia

Of course, the changes are on the PTS. They already had the patch ready to roll out. If the numbers changed didn't matter to output, they wouldn't have changed them. People are right to be bothered by it. The biggest problems I see are 1.) the greedy business model attached to these changes, and 2.) the lackluster combat caused by multiple rounds of hatchet nerfs to burst, sustain, utility, and defense. One that will come around and bite them I'm the rear in the end. They always toss some performance fixes in just rarely ever the right ones. question is are they actually helping or not, or do we need more powerful servers? just imho

IzzyStardust

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I'm excited for the changes, especially magicka khajiits

Yeah not me really - I don’t really like playing animal type races. I don’t want to have a tail, claws, scales, tusks or whatever. That’s just totally off putting for me.

I’ll wait to see what happens and if need be just shelve my dps or quit playing if it gets too, too bad.

And who forces you to create a Khajiit when you want to play a Magicka build?

Right, nobody. Cause it doesn't matter.

Oi I edited that; and I never said anyone FORCED me - I said I don’t like it.

Don’t infer things into my words and then quote me to argue with your own inference. ❤️

Thanks!

You don't like Khajiit - okay, that's true as it's your perception.

You want to shelve DPS because you think Khajiit might be the better option and you're recent character (Dunmer) doesn't fit Magicka DPS anymore - this is true on your part but generally false.

My post just reduced what you said to a basic premise: you don't have you play Khajiit to still be a viable Magicka DPS because your race, in this case, doesn't matter as much as you make it look like.

Except again: *I* am not making it look like this. You are, actually. My original comment was in reply to someone else being hyped about khajiits etc and you took my comment entirely out of context and argued with me about it as if I’d expressed any of the things you were arguing about. (Being forced to be a Khajiit when I never said or even thought that- lol - I don’t get forced to do anything, especially not in a game. Someone said yay khajiiit and I said not really imo basically - and you, not me, built that out into I’m complaining that I’m being forced blah blah etc. I’m not and I wasn’t. I don’t really use trigger words like ‘forced’ and ‘punished’ for gaming discussions because frankly- you’re never really forced or punished and I find the use of words like this in gaming laughable.

I main a healer and also play a tank - my guild has enough people who will become cats to fit the meta that I don’t have to. I will shelve her over change her to a cat to dps in raids. I’m not really concerned about like ez overland stuff or whatever as I’m mainly playing trials or PvP. Most of the mag dps in my guild I bet you will change to cats. I’ll also bet you a few tanks change to Nords.

My dunmer was my same char as in Beta 2013; I screenshot her sliders, and I will keep her as she is because she was the first.

And I’m not arguing about patch notes and changes because that is pointless. There are enough people so doing, that there’s just no point.

If you look, I’ve not even put it down other than state that the changes are a nerf for Dunmer mag dk and for dunmer magblade because these are facts.

As a Templar however; I am more than used to having my skills gutted and my class nerfed so - it’s really not a huge deal for me.

It’s still a fact though, that Khajiit as it stands will be BIS, thus meta.

Finally, the only reason I’m even bothering to type all this and reply to this again is so that you know to maybe look at the context next time you decide someone thinks anything they don’t or is implying anything they aren’t.

We have no discord (the word, not the program) - no need to manufacture any.

lagrue

OtarTheMad wrote: »

These patch notes look good overall. And really what is the difference between 7% flame damage and 258 spell damage. Is it that much of a drop?

Not really, actually it seems to be a buff in most cases.

Also beneficial because it now makes DK's more favorable for builds like my own. I run a DPS/Heal build, so now my heals, which depend fully on Resto staff abilities, will be arguably better.

It's also more versatile for the DPS side of things, with skill lines like Draconic Power and Earthern Heart also benefiting since it affects them.

It is still odd to remove purely fire related passives from Dunmers though as historically that's sort of their thing in ES.

Kraezy

NyassaV wrote: »

You're reasons for not wanting to play things games are hilariously insignificant

Trying to understand your post, you're mocking someone yet making yourself look like an idiot in the process.

Suggest when you edit your post, you take time to proof read what it is you're typing.

Slack

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

So, just because Dark Elfes lose Stamina you have lost all your interest in playing?
That's either completely stupid, or you have found out that bashing on Updates is a good way to collect forum stars

And on top it you haven't even read the patch notes correctly.
L-O-L

I don’t know to whom you are referring but
I refer mainly to fire dmg passives :-) and I’m not bashing on updates.

I also don’t want to play any lizard/boar/cat

It is either one way or the other.

Either I’ll play my dunmer or not. It’s not life or death for me. It’s just I’ll play that character or not play her. :-)

I was referring to the OP

Emmagoldman

So changes are going live as is or its in pts...very different

nsmurfer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Early DPS testing indicates Khajiit are BiS for magicka DPS, apparently by a wide margin too, lol. Followed by Breton.

Having Khajiit be the BiS race for magicka, ahead of Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton is insanely lore-breaking if it makes it to live. Even having Breton ahead of the elves is kind of silly, although easier to swallow (and apparently the difference there is small).

@MLGProPlayer

Check out an actual statistical DPS test done here.
Spoiler - Khajiit is not the BiS Magicka race. Breton is, followed by Altmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

Imryll

It's been my thought that they started with classes rather than races and wanted to provide pathways for more races to play particular classes, e.g. loosen the hold of dunmer on Dragon Knights, rather than make every race excellent at every role. I also wonder, particularly as I look at my dunmer, whether slightly longer term , they're looking to increase the viability of hybrid gameplay, at least for some races/classes. Indeed, my first thought when seeing the changes away from element-based racials was to wonder whether it was to make the affected races more attractive as necromancers. Just wonders and guesses, I know, but I think a lot does depend on things we can't yet see.

IzzyStardust

Slack wrote: »

IzzyStardust wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

So, just because Dark Elfes lose Stamina you have lost all your interest in playing?
That's either completely stupid, or you have found out that bashing on Updates is a good way to collect forum stars

And on top it you haven't even read the patch notes correctly.
L-O-L

I don’t know to whom you are referring but
I refer mainly to fire dmg passives :-) and I’m not bashing on updates.

I also don’t want to play any lizard/boar/cat

It is either one way or the other.

Either I’ll play my dunmer or not. It’s not life or death for me. It’s just I’ll play that character or not play her. :-)

I was referring to the OP

Ah! Well nevermind then!

Mayrael

Can I have your stuff?

But more seriously, Dark elves deserve some changes Right now there is no reason to choose them. I think that adding 8% spell and weapon critical chance would do the trick. Dunmers would be the best when it goes to damage dealing, Altmers would be compromise between damage and sustain while Bretons would be pure sustain.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Yamenstein wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

At least that's what it looks like since they're live on the PTS.
I don't think I want to keep playing this game. I haven't launched it in like 4 days.
I really don't want High Elves to somehow regenerate Stamina and Dark Elves to lose Flame Damage. Dark Elves are literally High Elves but with Stamina points, so why the hell are High Elves getting this?

Do you know what PTS stands for ?
Public Test Server.
Do you know what they do on the PTS?
Test changes, get feedback and then make further changes.
Does this mean the moment you cry "Give me back 7% flame damage" to the race that hasn't been known to be extra proficient in flame damage, that you'll get it ?
No.

What you should be doing is taking your builds to PTS, if you play on PC, and see how they perform with the new changes. After you have seen how they perform, and understood what the end goal is, then you can give obiective feed back in the PTS forums where it can be looked at and then discussed.

If you can't do that, because thinking both logically and objectively is too difficult and you still wish to exit the game and never play again. Then bye. I would advise deleting all your toons so you don't come back to the game as you might be turned off from having to do everything again.

Ok. Let me just give you three random examples of why I don't PTS test anything anymore. If you can find any green text in these three Official Templar Feedback threads, other than the initial OP and occasional moderation, I'm admittedly wrong and you are right. O=

Official Feedback Thread for Templars example #1

Official Feedback Thread for Templars example #2

Official PTS Feedback Thread for Templars example #3

Sure two of the links are fairly old, but I've seen no change in this regard recently either (in some cases sure, but not overall). =(

There are many reasons to use the PTS, like gaining an advantage in theory crafting before the live release, training Trials and Dungeons etc, resulting in excellent guides when the product hits "Live", heck even trying out new CS costumes or new looks in the character creator before you buy a token for 3K Crowns on Live, if you want to.

Funny is that I did it to test and provide feedback so that at least a discussion with the devs might get started. The void of any reaction to that is what really tipped me over. I mean, just look at the elaborate testing and providing of meticulous, data, information and feedback in most posts, to no avail. Example, Example, Example.

We (or they) might as well have provided all that to the wind, but maybe even the wind would at least have cried Marry.

Just because a developer or moderator doesn't reply to a thread doesn't mean they don't take down what you say.

Giving feedback is still an opportunity to create discussion, not just among the players who are replying back to you but developers can discuss internally as well.

When has ZoS ever listened to feedback tho?

Seraphayel

nsmurfer wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Early DPS testing indicates Khajiit are BiS for magicka DPS, apparently by a wide margin too, lol. Followed by Breton.

Having Khajiit be the BiS race for magicka, ahead of Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton is insanely lore-breaking if it makes it to live. Even having Breton ahead of the elves is kind of silly, although easier to swallow (and apparently the difference there is small).

@MLGProPlayer

Check out an actual statistical DPS test done here.
Spoiler - Khajiit is not the BiS Magicka race. Breton is, followed by Altmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

Hopefully the complaining about "destroyed" race combos can come to an end now.

Most races are so close together that it basically doesn't matter. A difference of 1-2k DPS is negligible in most scenarios.

Very nice to see that ZOS was able to bring the races closer together!

MLGProPlayer

nsmurfer wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Early DPS testing indicates Khajiit are BiS for magicka DPS, apparently by a wide margin too, lol. Followed by Breton.

Having Khajiit be the BiS race for magicka, ahead of Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton is insanely lore-breaking if it makes it to live. Even having Breton ahead of the elves is kind of silly, although easier to swallow (and apparently the difference there is small).

@MLGProPlayer

Check out an actual statistical DPS test done here.
Spoiler - Khajiit is not the BiS Magicka race. Breton is, followed by Altmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HGXW_B7EE

zaria

nsmurfer wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Early DPS testing indicates Khajiit are BiS for magicka DPS, apparently by a wide margin too, lol. Followed by Breton.

Having Khajiit be the BiS race for magicka, ahead of Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton is insanely lore-breaking if it makes it to live. Even having Breton ahead of the elves is kind of silly, although easier to swallow (and apparently the difference there is small).

@MLGProPlayer

Check out an actual statistical DPS test done here.
Spoiler - Khajiit is not the BiS Magicka race. Breton is, followed by Altmer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

This one is happy, less chance for nerf down the line
Difference is less than 1% if we exclude Argonians.
And it has an error margin of 2-300 damage i estimate.

Stamina builds has been nerfed because dual wield changes.
Well respec and stuff Khajiit into a robe and give her an staff.
Magic get nerfed, now there did I put that bow.
Major nerf resist is an hidden racial passive unique for Khajiit and Dunmer.

nsmurfer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HGXW_B7EE

Where is the comparison with Altmer or a Breton there? just a Khajiit magicka build DPS test. It is not self-buffed either. And, it is not multiple tests either to find the mean either. Statistics does not work that way.

ChunkyCat

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

What made you think they wouldn't?

+1

This dude living in the cloud?!

Sabbathius

You can't begrudge ZOS making some extra money off of folks. I mean, that's what this change is all about - to get people to fork over 3,000-3,500 crowns, per character. That's all this is. It's not about balance, it's about additional money injection into the game.

Frozen_Heart246

Vhozek wrote: »

I really don't want High Elves to somehow regenerate Stamina and Dark Elves to lose Flame Damage. Dark Elves are literally High Elves but with Stamina points, so why the hell are High Elves getting this?

^this