Nerf Rapids

Alphaa

Good change

Wihuri

Thogard wrote: »

You misunderstand. The ball group playstyle will still be viable, it’s just that snare removal and mobility will now have to be managed by the individual players rather than by a rapids bot. Learning how to do this promotes skillful play on an individual level, and teaches skills needed for other play styles too. Ball groups with players that are comfortable managing this independently will be fine - only the ball groups whose members lack experience with individual-focused PvP will be hurt by this, but again.. they’ll learn.

For stamina this is not a big problem. But please enlighten me how do you propose this for healers or magicka players? For healers, how do you heal the group while mistforming? For magicka, how do you deal damage while mistforming? Or maybe slot 2h on every single magicka guy you have and slot in forward momentum? But then you would need to account that you need more stam regen. Ok, we slot amber plasm on every single magicka player. If you do this, how about introduce some actual snare immunity skills for magicka users similar to forward momentum or shuffle? I sure would LOVE to not be forced to run vampire on my magicka chars even for solo/small group play. I mean I'll run vampire because I have to. But you know, while we're making these *** changes they might as well do that.

Thogard wrote: »

This change will make all types of PvP doable for players... people like you who play all of them will be fine. People who only play in ball groups will have to learn a new skill set.

Sure, I will be fine. I actually don't think there are many players who only play in ball groups. And even if there are some I don't think they have to learn anything more than just camping an entrance with blockade of frost etc. Fun gameplay?

Diundriel

I just chatted a bit to @Thorgard and if i understand him Right his Problem is that some bigger Groups (zergs, not ball Groups like dracarys etc) are faster than his smallscale Group and they cant circle around them anymore and hit them.
correct me if i am wrong
my Problem is especially the anti root remove and secondary the Speed of rapids for organized ball Groups like mine and dracarys.
the Question is if we can find a way to buff smallscale Speed without nerfing raid playstyle for it.

some ideas that just come to my mind:
1. make Speed potions great again, so they can Keep up with the Speed of ball Group via potions
2. creating one Morph that is way cheaper (50%ish) than the rapid Morph, just goes to 6 People and increase Speed by 40% and also applies root/Speed immunity
--> basically a smallscale Version that you can actually Sustain without being a dedecated Spammer for it.

Thogard

Diundriel wrote: »

I just chatted a bit to @Thorgard and if i understand him Right his Problem is that some bigger Groups (zergs, not ball Groups like dracarys etc) are faster than his smallscale Group and they cant circle around them anymore and hit them.
correct me if i am wrong
my Problem is especially the anti root remove and secondary the Speed of rapids for organized ball Groups like mine and dracarys.
the Question is if we can find a way to buff smallscale Speed without nerfing raid playstyle for it.

some ideas that just come to my mind:
1. make Speed potions great again, so they can Keep up with the Speed of ball Group via potions
2. creating one Morph that is way cheaper (50%ish) than the rapid Morph, just goes to 6 People and increase Speed by 40% and also applies root/Speed immunity
--> basically a smallscale Version that you can actually Sustain without being a dedecated Spammer for it.

Sort of. I swapped from Stam small scale to mag small scale when speed pots get nerfed, so I’m not worried about getting run down... but it did kill the viability of Stam small scale for everything but LOS heavy locations like towers and keeps.

If small scale and large scale move at the same speed, I’m ok with it. But at present, large scale is far faster than small scale for every small scale group except mine.. and that’s a problem.

Rapids dodged the major expedition nerf last time. This is bringing it in line with what small scale, 1vX, zergs, etc have already gone through.

It’s balance.

VaranisArano

Thogard wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Yeah I dont play in raids lol.

I didn't mean to even come comment here. Congratulations, you made me do it.

Thogard wrote: »

I can see how a lot of the newer PvPers who haven’t really broken away from the large scale zerg mentalities could be worries about this change. But don’t worry! The ball zerg playstyle might be the least demanding of experience or character micro out there (unless you’re leading it), but this change will force the players in each of those groups to learn how to better manage their individual characters in PvP. Once this is improved, this will open up other forms of openworld PvP that were previously too intidimodating, such as medium scale, small scale, and 1vX

So you're saying no one who plays in a ball group knows how to play in medium or small group size? Or solo? I like solo. I also like to play in ball group with my guild. I will be fine. But your view is that everyone who plays the game must play like you do. What if people like playing in a ball group? Is that wrong to do so? People can still do that. What it means is we get a turtle meta where offensive pushing is punished. You create area control around the spots you want to watch and you don't let people through. It will be significantly EASIER to play in one. No movement required. Just camp a spot. It will just become more boring to do so. It will be so much more easier to time your detos and land your negates/novas when your opponents are perma rooted. Your post is *** ***. Go home, you're drunk.

Thogard wrote: »

I’m very excited about this - more large scale groups developing the skill sets to small scale will be great for the health of the servers, great for GvG, great for fights, and great for the community.

Of course you are excited about this. It caters to your way of playing the game. And like I said you want everyone to play the same way you do.

P.S. A forum ban would be a blessing if I got one

Edit: typo

You misunderstand. The ball group playstyle will still be viable, it’s just that snare removal and mobility will now have to be managed by the individual players rather than by a rapids bot. Learning how to do this promotes skillful play on an individual level, and teaches skills needed for other play styles too. Ball groups with players that are comfortable managing this independently will be fine - only the ball groups whose members lack experience with individual-focused PvP will be hurt by this, but again.. they’ll learn.

This change will make all types of PvP doable for players... people like you who play all of them will be fine. People who only play in ball groups will have to learn a new skill set.

That’s all.

I mostly agree.

I've played in a large organized raid. Many of us knew how to move and handle snare removal without dedicated support roles, so when, we had those dedicated support skills like rapids, it made us even better.

I often see this misconception that players in large organized raids don't know how to play the game, that we queue up, turn our brain off, and follow crown spamming skills and ults like lemmings in the Disney feature.

That's not how it worked in my experience. Its a lot like how small group tactics work, only we stick together at all costs and we have more people to cover all the bases so we can have more specialized builds. Many of the players I played with were very experienced or became experienced or learned from the other members such that we knew how to play PVP and we chose to do so in an organized raid as a team.

The good organized raids will adjust and quickly because their players already have the gameplay skills needed to do so and the willingness to adjust their builds as well. This change will require adjustment, certainly, but its not the silver bullet or the sky-is-falling some people say it is.

Semi-organized or PUG raids, on the other hand, may or may not struggle depending on how much they were using rapids. If they were and they were dependent on it, their members will need to learn those skills for mobility, breaking free, stamina management, and sticking together that experienced group players already know. Which is not a bad thing.

Thogard

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Yeah I dont play in raids lol.

I didn't mean to even come comment here. Congratulations, you made me do it.

Thogard wrote: »

I can see how a lot of the newer PvPers who haven’t really broken away from the large scale zerg mentalities could be worries about this change. But don’t worry! The ball zerg playstyle might be the least demanding of experience or character micro out there (unless you’re leading it), but this change will force the players in each of those groups to learn how to better manage their individual characters in PvP. Once this is improved, this will open up other forms of openworld PvP that were previously too intidimodating, such as medium scale, small scale, and 1vX

So you're saying no one who plays in a ball group knows how to play in medium or small group size? Or solo? I like solo. I also like to play in ball group with my guild. I will be fine. But your view is that everyone who plays the game must play like you do. What if people like playing in a ball group? Is that wrong to do so? People can still do that. What it means is we get a turtle meta where offensive pushing is punished. You create area control around the spots you want to watch and you don't let people through. It will be significantly EASIER to play in one. No movement required. Just camp a spot. It will just become more boring to do so. It will be so much more easier to time your detos and land your negates/novas when your opponents are perma rooted. Your post is *** ***. Go home, you're drunk.

Thogard wrote: »

I’m very excited about this - more large scale groups developing the skill sets to small scale will be great for the health of the servers, great for GvG, great for fights, and great for the community.

Of course you are excited about this. It caters to your way of playing the game. And like I said you want everyone to play the same way you do.

P.S. A forum ban would be a blessing if I got one

Edit: typo

You misunderstand. The ball group playstyle will still be viable, it’s just that snare removal and mobility will now have to be managed by the individual players rather than by a rapids bot. Learning how to do this promotes skillful play on an individual level, and teaches skills needed for other play styles too. Ball groups with players that are comfortable managing this independently will be fine - only the ball groups whose members lack experience with individual-focused PvP will be hurt by this, but again.. they’ll learn.

This change will make all types of PvP doable for players... people like you who play all of them will be fine. People who only play in ball groups will have to learn a new skill set.

That’s all.

I mostly agree.

I've played in a large organized raid. Many of us knew how to move and handle snare removal without dedicated support roles, so when, we had those dedicated support skills like rapids, it made us even better.

I often see this misconception that players in large organized raids don't know how to play the game, that we queue up, turn our brain off, and follow crown spamming skills and ults like lemmings in the Disney feature.

That's not how it worked in my experience. Its a lot like how small group tactics work, only we stick together at all costs and we have more people to cover all the bases so we can have more specialized builds. Many of the players I played with were very experienced or became experienced or learned from the other members such that we knew how to play PVP and we chose to do so in an organized raid as a team.

The good organized raids will adjust and quickly because their players already have the gameplay skills needed to do so and the willingness to adjust their builds as well. This change will require adjustment, certainly, but its not the silver bullet or the sky-is-falling some people say it is.

Semi-organized or PUG raids, on the other hand, may or may not struggle depending on how much they were using rapids. If they were and they were dependent on it, their members will need to learn those skills for mobility, breaking free, stamina management, and sticking together that experienced group players already know. Which is not a bad thing.

Exactly. The large scale raid players that already know how to do this won’t be affected. If anything, it’s a buff since the zergs they’re fighting won’t be as fast.

Diundriel

Guild Groups wont be fast enough as they benefit much more from rapids as zerg groups that dont have a dedicated spammer (muliple Spammers)…
we should reduce this all to one thread there are to many running at the same time atm

bardx86

Sharee wrote: »

Best change to PvP since release. High time ball groups actually became vulnerable to something else than negate.

Absolutely one of the best changes in a long time.

fullheartcontainer

I've noted in another thread the state of CC in this game. I understand people were frustrated with ballgroups seemingly being able to outmaneuver CC due to a single group-targeted ability, but I think Rapids helps combat a huge problem in this game and with it gone, we have even fewer options.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454645/the-neutral-zone-trap-a-thorough-look-at-cc-in-this-game/p1

evoniee

but raid group kill casual pvper, right ??????
:thinking: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Spark

Kartalin wrote: »

What will ZOS do when every player, stamina or magicka, uses 2h for forward momentum now?

Why would they need to do something? Except maybe add another skill for variety. (Is there anything but forward momentum and dk wings?) The problem with rapids isn't snare immunity, it's that it's snare immunity for the whole group.

ak_pvp

Good Change.

Zergling sperglings need to actually build for it themselves. As they should have to instead f clutching on pure numbers.

VaranisArano

Thogard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Yeah I dont play in raids lol.

I didn't mean to even come comment here. Congratulations, you made me do it.

Thogard wrote: »

I can see how a lot of the newer PvPers who haven’t really broken away from the large scale zerg mentalities could be worries about this change. But don’t worry! The ball zerg playstyle might be the least demanding of experience or character micro out there (unless you’re leading it), but this change will force the players in each of those groups to learn how to better manage their individual characters in PvP. Once this is improved, this will open up other forms of openworld PvP that were previously too intidimodating, such as medium scale, small scale, and 1vX

So you're saying no one who plays in a ball group knows how to play in medium or small group size? Or solo? I like solo. I also like to play in ball group with my guild. I will be fine. But your view is that everyone who plays the game must play like you do. What if people like playing in a ball group? Is that wrong to do so? People can still do that. What it means is we get a turtle meta where offensive pushing is punished. You create area control around the spots you want to watch and you don't let people through. It will be significantly EASIER to play in one. No movement required. Just camp a spot. It will just become more boring to do so. It will be so much more easier to time your detos and land your negates/novas when your opponents are perma rooted. Your post is *** ***. Go home, you're drunk.

Thogard wrote: »

I’m very excited about this - more large scale groups developing the skill sets to small scale will be great for the health of the servers, great for GvG, great for fights, and great for the community.

Of course you are excited about this. It caters to your way of playing the game. And like I said you want everyone to play the same way you do.

P.S. A forum ban would be a blessing if I got one

Edit: typo

You misunderstand. The ball group playstyle will still be viable, it’s just that snare removal and mobility will now have to be managed by the individual players rather than by a rapids bot. Learning how to do this promotes skillful play on an individual level, and teaches skills needed for other play styles too. Ball groups with players that are comfortable managing this independently will be fine - only the ball groups whose members lack experience with individual-focused PvP will be hurt by this, but again.. they’ll learn.

This change will make all types of PvP doable for players... people like you who play all of them will be fine. People who only play in ball groups will have to learn a new skill set.

That’s all.

I mostly agree.

I've played in a large organized raid. Many of us knew how to move and handle snare removal without dedicated support roles, so when, we had those dedicated support skills like rapids, it made us even better.

I often see this misconception that players in large organized raids don't know how to play the game, that we queue up, turn our brain off, and follow crown spamming skills and ults like lemmings in the Disney feature.

That's not how it worked in my experience. Its a lot like how small group tactics work, only we stick together at all costs and we have more people to cover all the bases so we can have more specialized builds. Many of the players I played with were very experienced or became experienced or learned from the other members such that we knew how to play PVP and we chose to do so in an organized raid as a team.

The good organized raids will adjust and quickly because their players already have the gameplay skills needed to do so and the willingness to adjust their builds as well. This change will require adjustment, certainly, but its not the silver bullet or the sky-is-falling some people say it is.

Semi-organized or PUG raids, on the other hand, may or may not struggle depending on how much they were using rapids. If they were and they were dependent on it, their members will need to learn those skills for mobility, breaking free, stamina management, and sticking together that experienced group players already know. Which is not a bad thing.

Exactly. The large scale raid players that already know how to do this won’t be affected. If anything, it’s a buff since the zergs they’re fighting won’t be as fast.

I dont think its a buff for organized raids. It's pretty clearly a nerf to their current playstyle, and will be a nerf vs organized small groups who can best take advantage of their new vulnerability to roots and CCs.

In my experience, zergs of disorganized players don't run rapids effectively enough for this to make a big difference in how they move - they've always been vulnerable to being slowed and pulled apart because of that disorganization. I actually don't expect this to change much for disorganized zergs. When they defeat organized raids, its usually because of overwhelming numbers or by working together, and those factors really haven't changed. It'll be easier for these zergs to CC the raids, but the challenge is getting the disorganized zerg to intelligently CC in the first place.

Where it will be a relative buff to raids is versus semiorganized or PUG groups who did run rapids or, as you've stated, less experienced organized groups who let themselves be dependent on rapids spammers where individual players now have to learn how to handle their own movement. Those groups may be looking at a steep learning curve.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Rapids dodged the major expedition nerf last time. This is bringing it in line with what small scale, 1vX, zergs, etc have already gone through.

It’s balance.

There have been no adjustments to the major expedition buff on rapids this patch.

ErMurazor

Thogard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Yeah I dont play in raids lol.

I didn't mean to even come comment here. Congratulations, you made me do it.

Thogard wrote: »

I can see how a lot of the newer PvPers who haven’t really broken away from the large scale zerg mentalities could be worries about this change. But don’t worry! The ball zerg playstyle might be the least demanding of experience or character micro out there (unless you’re leading it), but this change will force the players in each of those groups to learn how to better manage their individual characters in PvP. Once this is improved, this will open up other forms of openworld PvP that were previously too intidimodating, such as medium scale, small scale, and 1vX

So you're saying no one who plays in a ball group knows how to play in medium or small group size? Or solo? I like solo. I also like to play in ball group with my guild. I will be fine. But your view is that everyone who plays the game must play like you do. What if people like playing in a ball group? Is that wrong to do so? People can still do that. What it means is we get a turtle meta where offensive pushing is punished. You create area control around the spots you want to watch and you don't let people through. It will be significantly EASIER to play in one. No movement required. Just camp a spot. It will just become more boring to do so. It will be so much more easier to time your detos and land your negates/novas when your opponents are perma rooted. Your post is *** ***. Go home, you're drunk.

Thogard wrote: »

I’m very excited about this - more large scale groups developing the skill sets to small scale will be great for the health of the servers, great for GvG, great for fights, and great for the community.

Of course you are excited about this. It caters to your way of playing the game. And like I said you want everyone to play the same way you do.

P.S. A forum ban would be a blessing if I got one

Edit: typo

You misunderstand. The ball group playstyle will still be viable, it’s just that snare removal and mobility will now have to be managed by the individual players rather than by a rapids bot. Learning how to do this promotes skillful play on an individual level, and teaches skills needed for other play styles too. Ball groups with players that are comfortable managing this independently will be fine - only the ball groups whose members lack experience with individual-focused PvP will be hurt by this, but again.. they’ll learn.

This change will make all types of PvP doable for players... people like you who play all of them will be fine. People who only play in ball groups will have to learn a new skill set.

That’s all.

I mostly agree.

I've played in a large organized raid. Many of us knew how to move and handle snare removal without dedicated support roles, so when, we had those dedicated support skills like rapids, it made us even better.

I often see this misconception that players in large organized raids don't know how to play the game, that we queue up, turn our brain off, and follow crown spamming skills and ults like lemmings in the Disney feature.

That's not how it worked in my experience. Its a lot like how small group tactics work, only we stick together at all costs and we have more people to cover all the bases so we can have more specialized builds. Many of the players I played with were very experienced or became experienced or learned from the other members such that we knew how to play PVP and we chose to do so in an organized raid as a team.

The good organized raids will adjust and quickly because their players already have the gameplay skills needed to do so and the willingness to adjust their builds as well. This change will require adjustment, certainly, but its not the silver bullet or the sky-is-falling some people say it is.

Semi-organized or PUG raids, on the other hand, may or may not struggle depending on how much they were using rapids. If they were and they were dependent on it, their members will need to learn those skills for mobility, breaking free, stamina management, and sticking together that experienced group players already know. Which is not a bad thing.

Exactly. The large scale raid players that already know how to do this won’t be affected. If anything, it’s a buff since the zergs they’re fighting won’t be as fast.

Zergs dont use rapids, LOL. They use Numbers and IF u dont have the Speed and immunity no skill in the world can save you. Eventually you will be run down.

Kartalin

Eh not going to kill 12 person raiding, just have to change up our approach a bit.

Diundriel

some solo player will welcome this change, all good ball groups that took advantage of this skill won’t welcome it at all cause you basically let numbers win now and zergs gonna be happy af as they never had a rapid spammer and they already know how to play with 24 man ^^

heavier

I'm not sure I agree with the nerf, but I understand that it was too widely available. it can be cast on an entire raid by any person with assault line.

heavier

Diundriel wrote: »

@Thogard i am 100% for making max Group size 12 People as a good raid with 12 People can fight most fights in cyro.
good 16man grp like Zerg Squad was is kinda unkillable and i find it boring if you raid with so many as there isnt a real challenge and single Player skill matters less.
you gotta seperate between 24 solo Players in one Group and 12 man endgame pvp Guild group

that would be bad unless you could link groups somehow.
in TERA we had a max party side of 5 and then it becomes a raid, buffs were fully distributed throughout the raid, but then again buffs played a much different role than they do here.
I'd be fine if there was some kind of limitation to the spread of "full raid buffs" as long as there is still a tracker for large groups and the other groups can still be buffed somehow

Diundriel

heavier wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the nerf, but I understand that it was too widely available. it can be cast on an entire raid by any person with assault line.

hehe necromaner group buff will prove rot immunity for Raid xD

heavier

pzschrek wrote: »

It heavily reinforces the stamina dominance in pvp, that’s for sure

I actually spent around 20k switching to magicka on my high elf and then switching back (stat reset and 2x skill redistribution) because I realized how awful it would be without my massive stamina pool. like I might have been able to pull it if all I needed to do was sprint, but heh there's so much more and I regularly find it empty even with okish sustain and a huge pool.

btw I need to build more sustain, but doing so feels really gross

BUFF INVIGORATING TRAIT OK?

Rake

Thogard wrote: »

The top end PvP guilds are all happy about these changes.

Only the zerg guilds are upset. The rapids spammer will have to find a new job.

By top end you mean falling from top of alessia bridge into Niben to meet swift end?

heavier

Rake wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The top end PvP guilds are all happy about these changes.

Only the zerg guilds are upset. The rapids spammer will have to find a new job.

By top end you mean falling from top of alessia bridge into Niben to meet swift end?

I'm not really sure how to distinguish zerg from ball group

seems like a zerg that doesn't move really and can't be killed easily

anyways "top end pvp guilds" don't really exist in ESO
PvP has a long ways to come b4 we can begin to start judging who's who where

Diundriel

no pvp endgame raid guild on NA? except dracarys

Diundriel

EU has a couple of really good organized groups and a lot of halfway organized group...
from eu perspective this change gonna hurt cyro, may be different on na...

waitwhat

Rapids is an annoying skill that promotes farming and removes counterplay from trap-based strategies. This change is excellent for keep defense. "Retreating Maneuver" was often used for charging into the breach, and that won't be possible anymore.

Sharee

Diundriel wrote: »

EU has a couple of really good organized groups and a lot of halfway organized group...
from eu perspective this change gonna hurt cyro, may be different on na...

From where i am standing, a cyro without ball groups looks much better than with them.

DivineFirstYOLO

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rapids dodged the major expedition nerf last time. This is bringing it in line with what small scale, 1vX, zergs, etc have already gone through.

It’s balance.

There have been no adjustments to the major expedition buff on rapids this patch.

Got to quote this so that people realize what is actually going to happen to maneuver. The major expedition buff will stay and now "only" target 12 people. So if you are in a zerg and cast it twice you are gucci.

Organized groups used the skill mainly solely for the snare removal. That is now gone - nuked.

My problem with this change is, instead of going a different route and making the snare removal of rapids affordable for small scalers (by reducing the cost or making the cost scale with everybody in your group you hit) they simply destroyed the skill and showed everybody that is playing in a coordinated group (whether it is 2vX, 4vX, 12vX) the middle finger.
Of course they left the expedition almost untouched so that potatoes are still able to chase and catch you (assuming they even know this skill exists).

Yes, ball groups now will have to use more people with purge, so there is a way around for them.
Still... ZOS (again) used a sledgehammer instead of a chisel and simply nerfed a PVP skill instead of carefully changing it.

Retreating Maneuver is probably going to be completely garbage. If the reduction of damage taken has the same proc condition as the flanking strategist set (adds weapon dmg when you attack an enemy from behind) you are not gonna feel any reduction. Go test the set on PTS, you need to be straight in a line to proc the set which means if you stand a little to the side you're not going to get any benefits. In cyrodiil, how often are people in a straight line behind your back?

Moonsorrow

Now is the best time ever for everyone to become an Archer and join the zerg. There can spam snipe and get kills from safety of the numbers. When bored, can go do battlegrounds for some "riveting gameplay".

And @DivineFirstYOLO

Sadly, i feel people have the mentality now, that after the massive speed nerfs (only Swift needed adjustment) they think that when everyone gets everything nerfed, then its all good since everyone is miserable. To me its just sad, i still wish we could go back to Summerset situation and all that happened after it would be just a bad dream.

Thogard

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Now is the best time ever for everyone to become an Archer and join the zerg. There can spam snipe and get kills from safety of the numbers. When bored, can go do battlegrounds for some "riveting gameplay".

Lol truth.

But interestingly enough, snipe meme builds got a subtle nerf this patch with the 10% bonus dmg from hiding being removed from the racial passives.