Progression System (CP) vs. Removing the CP System and Becoming Totally Horizontal

Crafts_Many_Boxes

So, I didn't catch the stream today, but this seems to be the most relevant topic to come out of it for me. Full disclosure, I AM biased here, but I tried to articulate all the points being presented in these new threads fairly.

Basically, it comes down to radically different beliefs: do you prefer character progression in your videogames, or do you prefer a horizontal system where no content in a certain category is necessarily harder than anything else, and the only thing that impacts your dps is your own skill and to a much lesser extent, the gear you wear?

A few points to consider before anyone starts arguing their case either way. These are my thoughts on the matter, as I'm pretty much going to stay out of the discussion:

1) The argument that CP is meaningless because they keep creating harder content to match it is a half-truth at best. I'd prefer people not try to approach the discussion from this angle.

To my knowledge and experience, overland isn't really any harder in morrowind vs vanilla, or summerset vs morrowind. Yes, they have made more difficult trials and dungeons, but there are still ways outside of that specific content casual players can feel they are getting stronger and improving. And even in the new dungeons / trials coming out, I personally feel like doing double my 2017 dps is cool, even if the boss has twice as much health as a 2017 trial boss. It's the combination of the power fantasy and seeing bigger numbers, both of which I love.

It's not a treadmill, it's a treadmill with a flight of stairs next to it, and you can do whichever you're feeling at the time. I think there's value in that.

2) IF they were to remove CP points from the game, they would have to go back and re-balance pretty much anything non-overland that's come out in the last 2-3 years. Can you imagine doing VMA without CP points? We wouldn't even need leaderboards, we'd be lucky if 100 players from each class cleared each week. The same can be said for vet DLC dungeons, even the old ones like white gold or cradle of shadows.

Can you imagine the seas of casuals who would just leave immediately because they can't function in any sort of endgame content anymore? You tell them "git gud" they laugh and they quit. Congratulations, you've created Wildstar 2.0. For those who don't know, Wildstar was notorious for being "for hardcore gamers" and has pretty much gone under.

The CP system allows players who aren't necessarily the best at videogames complete some endgame content, even if it's much later than intended. I think there's value in that.

These were my only thoughts on the matter. I'm more curious to see how people vote but if you want to discuss, be my guest.

Siohwenoeht

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

My only caveat to my vote is if they replaced or revamped CP, there still needs to be a system to provide progression.

Imo, removing it in favour of only horizontal progression would only worsen the meta chasing. Lots of folks already hunt down fotm sets and builds after every patch.

That said, there are also plenty of folks like me that theory craft our own builds with non-meta gear and adjust our skills or playstyle when a patch changes something pertinent. It's not that I rely on CP to make my builds perform well, it's that with that system I can tweak the allocations and keep my golded gear. Unless of course a new set fits what I've already spent hours building, I'm not playing to meta-chase.

Faulgor

Other (please explain)

The CP system should have been horizontal from the very beginning.

mairwen85

Other (please explain)

See Post

SshadowSscale

Remove the CP system. My focus is not on vertical character progression when I play this game, and I feel that the CP system creates too much imbalance / power creep.

There is a reason I only pvp in no cp.....

Thannazzar

Other (please explain)

Don't like the CP system, but it's the least worst system I have come across in Mmos. As long as the devs steer clear of an ever increasing character and gear level I'm content.

Turelus

Remove the CP system. My focus is not on vertical character progression when I play this game, and I feel that the CP system creates too much imbalance / power creep.

I've long said CP should go away. It causes way more issues than it solves IMO.

Find another progression system which isn't as punishing as VR ranks but also not as absurd as CP. You could even keep CP but just take the combat bonuses away from it and have it more about interesting abilities or QoL effects (the passives current there).

I mean, imagine a game where everyone playing PvP and PvE didn't have to worry about CP and Non-CP builds/campaigns etc.

idk

Other (please explain)

I really do not know what the fuss is over the change announced today. The changes Zos has made with their quarterly updates did far more to make us stronger than the added CP.

SaintSubwayy

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

I personally enjoy the CP system, it brings some kind of Balance between classes into the Game.
However IMO the values of the perks are too high.

Furthermore, the x Pints spend on a tree Perks are way too underwhelming. Krit for example is great, reduced DMG taken while rezzing is great, but some are just straiht our useless.

and as far as I know, the Gap doesnt really widen between 0 CP and 900 CP, since you still need the Same EXP to get to 900 CP then you needed to get to 780.

Jeah effective wise, the Gap gest streched, but its clsed so fast again, you wont even notice it IMO.

1 Solution I can think of, is that Cp's are no longer Possible to get more of, than the Cap. but once you reach the CAP, then you will always stay at the Cap, een when the Cap gets raised.

and the CP you currently have will be % based on how many % you had befre the increase, and then the same % is applied after a Cap increase.

Example:
Current Cap 600
My CP's: 150 (25%)

Raised Cap 660
My CP's: 165 (25%)

So I instantly gained 15 CP's with the Cap increase, and are still on the Same % as before the Increase.
This will give players below 50% of the Cap a little bit of a harder Time (but CP's require less CP's anyways), and it would balance out niceley if players are above 50% of the Cap, where CP's are already starting to get annoing to get done fast.

Agalloch

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

THIS IS A MMO, isn't it?

A MMO must have vertical progression and also horizontal one.

Power creep is something normal in a MMO.

They could do something like in RIFT ..where a vet can downscale to a lower level so he could help a newbie.

Look at Diablo 3, even is not a MMO. They have Paragon system and many game difficulties also.

Look at real life ...not everyone is the same..There are people more trained than others in different aspects of the life.

We are not the same . We want to grow..to be more skilled ..we want to be better than others...This is the human race .

We don't want communism in a MMO.

WE MUST HAVE VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL PROGRESSION IN THE SAME TIME IN ESO.


English is not my native language.

KefkaGestahl

I might be dumb, but couldn't they just make it insanely easy for people to get, like, the first 400 CP? If they're worried about the gap, erase the gap. I know they lower XP requirements each time they raise the cap, but they should just make 400 CP the new floor and get those points easily right out of the gate. That would erase the gap between old and new players and let new players catch up more easily.

I like champion points. I'm not hardcore but I've managed to crawl my way up to around 750 CP. Every 30 points I get makes my character feel exponentially stronger. I don't want them to be taken away from me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Remove the CP system. My focus is not on vertical character progression when I play this game, and I feel that the CP system creates too much imbalance / power creep.

I don't really think you are showing the true cost of the champion system. One of the options states that "Power creep is natural in MMOs." Even if I don't contest that statment, the true cost of the champion system isn't the power creep, its that ZOS adjusts for that power creep by nerfing class skills.

We pay for the champion system by watching our individual class skills get weaker and weaker. Somewhere around Morrowind, ZOS decided that almost every class was over sustaining. Instead of just nerfing the champion system where the cost reduction trees were clearly at fault, they went a step further and torched iconic class skills that have been with us since launch.

For example: DK helping hands passive, which was a huge source of both stamina and magkica Dragonknight sustain got nerfed into uselessness. Other classes paid as well, with nerfs to leeching strikes, repentence, etc. Sorcerer was spared but then Dark Deal got nerfed a bit later in a subsequent patch.

In the last 4 major updates we have gone through BRUTAL "across the board" nerfs. Not just nerfing a skill that was overpowered, but nerfing damage, utility and sustain class wide.

So the real question is this: When ZOS inevitably brings out the nerf bat for the "natural" power creep, what source of power do they carve out first?

I'd rather they adjust any power creep in the champion tree. Numbers are boring. Skills and class utility is exciting. I'd rather have lower numbers and be able to do more powerful and unique things with my class skills.

TL;DR A vote to keep the champion system is a vote to continue to ruin class uniqueness and power. ZOS will continue to try to balance the game, and the controls have to go some where.

SaintSubwayy

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

KefkaGestahl wrote: »

I might be dumb, but couldn't they just make it insanely easy for people to get, like, the first 400 CP? If they're worried about the gap, erase the gap. I know they lower XP requirements each time they raise the cap, but they should just make 400 CP the new floor and get those points easily right out of the gate. That would erase the gap between old and new players and let new players catch up more easily.

I like champion points. I'm not hardcore but I've managed to crawl my way up to around 750 CP. Every 30 points I get makes my character feel exponentially stronger. I don't want them to be taken away from me.

the XP required is the same, thats right. However the probelm I see is that when youre not on the CAp, and the Cap increases you again need to gain 30 Points more, therefore I suggested the Idea (2 posts above your post) that CP Cap should not be exceedable, but if you reach it you stay at the Cap, and if you arent quite there yet, you will get lifted to have the same percentage of the cap , that you had beforethe increase.

and TBH the first approx 300 Cp's are already very easy to get, once you are above 160, get a Friend some EXp boosters (+Event if Possible) and grind out your brain in Skyreach and you will be at 600-700 pretty fast.
Yes its boring AF, not cheap (repairs and all) but if you wana reach the cap, work for it.

The record for lvl 1- Cap (cap was about 560 then afaik) was 3 Days and some hours.
Some dude grinded the living cr*p out with some hlp, just to proove how fast it can go.

Qbiken

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

Turelus wrote: »

I've long said CP should go away. It causes way more issues than it solves IMO.

Find another progression system which isn't as punishing as VR ranks but also not as absurd as CP. You could even keep CP but just take the combat bonuses away from it and have it more about interesting abilities or QoL effects (the passives current there).

I mean, imagine a game where everyone playing PvP and PvE didn't have to worry about CP and Non-CP builds/campaigns etc.

I can list numerous changes during 2018 that had more impact on power-creep than CP ever had and ever will have in this game. People overestimate how much CP does. Does it impact? Ye obviously it does, but not nearly as much as people want to believe.

SaintSubwayy

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

Qbiken wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I've long said CP should go away. It causes way more issues than it solves IMO.

Find another progression system which isn't as punishing as VR ranks but also not as absurd as CP. You could even keep CP but just take the combat bonuses away from it and have it more about interesting abilities or QoL effects (the passives current there).

I mean, imagine a game where everyone playing PvP and PvE didn't have to worry about CP and Non-CP builds/campaigns etc.

I can list numerous changes during 2018 that had more impact on power-creep than CP ever had and ever will have in this game. People overestimate how much CP does. Does it impact? Ye obviously it does, but not nearly as much as people want to believe.

jeah jsut to recall 2 or even 3 sets, which added more power creep than CPS...Siroria, Relequen, Spellstrat and Zaan only a few exampels.

There sets provide way more DMG, than the CP increase did.
lets compare Siroria with Julianos, 300SD more, 5% minor slayer, more max Magicka, and a bit less kritrate.

This impacts DMG way more than 2-3% dmg boost from CP...especially when hitting hard on diminishing returns.

Edziu

Remove the CP system. My focus is not on vertical character progression when I play this game, and I feel that the CP system creates too much imbalance / power creep.

in gw2 it is greatly done
we have max lvl and "mastery level" - something instead of CP in ESO
and this mastery lvl is only for QoL improvement in game or to unlocking additional option while exploring maps like opening shorctuts etc and there is no power creep for that long time

Elwendryll

I support a progression system, but something less combat-oriented than the CP system currently is.

I want the harder dungeons to require more mechanical skill than the easier ones, and not more dps. The CP system should not bring so much power.

Medakon

Remove the CP system. My focus is not on vertical character progression when I play this game, and I feel that the CP system creates too much imbalance / power creep.

Lets get a better progression system:

Once your max level, you get option to reset you level to 1.

If you do this, reaching lvl 50 again has increased in experience needed by 25%.
They should add 10 tiers you can reset your level.

Rewards will be cosmetics, and will not effect gameplay.
Maybe new animation to skills, skins, title, colors, mounts, emotes.

Lets do it!

Vapirko

Other (please explain)

I do like CP because it gives you leeway in builds (no it’s not a crutch when everyone has access to it) I understand it’s not viable, but I also don’t want to see the need to upgrade all gear to CP 180 or anything like that either. Idk what the answer is. CP was probably just way powerful to begin with. I don’t play other MMO so idk what if anything has been successful long term.

Personally I’m not bothered by no progression. Doing it every patch was dumb. It should have been like twice a year max and the overall gain of CP points should have slowed way down as you neared cap.

spoqster

I support a progression system, but something less combat-oriented than the CP system currently is.

The non-combat passives in the CP system are wonderful: war mount, master gatherer, inspiration boost, etc.

Fill the CP system up with non-combat passives and remove anything combat-related.

Good passives for the cp systems are many of those from the guild skill lines. Many of those should be account-wide anyway (like the one from db where you take less aggro from mobs while riding. But anything quality of life related will be appreciated.

miteba

Other (please explain)

Continue the CPSystem but with different perks that exclude damage, resistances and sustain,
Obviously with creative perks that could be usefull in both PVE and PVP

Cannot simply eradicate all the grinding done by players from the CP begining because lots of people would go away ...

Lifsteinn

One thing is certain: There will be NO progression. AT ALL.
Literally NOTHING.

Tipsy

Other (please explain)

The solution is quite simple I think ;

Introduce class advancement and cut the CP requirement in half say CP 500 required for class advancement

Azurya

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

so, if CP gets removed, players playing the game since beta are left with.............. nothing???

all players are bottomlevel, same stats all over the place, 64 points to set, some skillpoints and that was it???
where is the progress?? why have we worked so hard all these years to be where we are now???

all wasted by just one decision??
we just walk around pick flowers and gain some mats to sell???

wait, we can try the new class instead! NO THANKS!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Saphayla

Other (please explain)

It's not the power that bothers me, but the lack of variety. I'd like for combat to be something more than a sequence of pressing 12 buttons in a particular order.

Evergnar

I support a progression system, but something less combat-oriented than the CP system currently is.

I've said for quite awhile they should just replace cp system with non combat perks. I'm well beyond the cp cap and feel absolutely zero gratification or progression when it creeps another 30cp each update.

OrdoHermetica

Saphayla wrote: »

It's not the power that bothers me, but the lack of variety. I'd like for combat to be something more than a sequence of pressing 12 buttons in a particular order.

I agree. The "play how you want" advertising on the tin falls apart in this game the moment you get into anything resembling end-game PvE. The overwhelming hyperfocus on damage at the expense of all others things doesn't help much, either, and while that's definitely a bit on our end as players (no, really, not every single piece of Trials gear for every single role needs to be custom-tailored to squeeze out the max possible DPS in order to skip mechanics), it also has to do with the design philosophy of ZOS so far. The choice to have a very small active bar compared to other MMORPGs kind of cements the need for rigid rotations, since you have to maximize efficiency on every single skill you have slotted, given how relatively few of them you get access to without having to leave combat.

I don't know what the answer is, but it is an issue.

zaria

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I've long said CP should go away. It causes way more issues than it solves IMO.

Find another progression system which isn't as punishing as VR ranks but also not as absurd as CP. You could even keep CP but just take the combat bonuses away from it and have it more about interesting abilities or QoL effects (the passives current there).

I mean, imagine a game where everyone playing PvP and PvE didn't have to worry about CP and Non-CP builds/campaigns etc.

I can list numerous changes during 2018 that had more impact on power-creep than CP ever had and ever will have in this game. People overestimate how much CP does. Does it impact? Ye obviously it does, but not nearly as much as people want to believe.

jeah jsut to recall 2 or even 3 sets, which added more power creep than CPS...Siroria, Relequen, Spellstrat and Zaan only a few exampels.

There sets provide way more DMG, than the CP increase did.
lets compare Siroria with Julianos, 300SD more, 5% minor slayer, more max Magicka, and a bit less kritrate.

This impacts DMG way more than 2-3% dmg boost from CP...especially when hitting hard on diminishing returns.

This, CP effects past 5-600 should be pretty minimal. now no cp has an impact think its 30% more dps and taking 30% less damage but that is just some number I saw.

sekou_trayvond

Other (please explain)

My two cents that I've espoused quietly over time:

CP is fine, but I would prefer it be directly tied to skills rather a system whereby one point expended garners you a .08 percent increase in this or that buff.

I'd prefer a system where CP are points you can expend to buff skills, e.g. Spend 50 CP to make Hail of Arrows do X more damage, or Spend 100 CP to increase the radius of Caltrops. Stuff like that. Depending on the CP cost of said buffs, you could design the system where the allocation of points is more meatier and makes the player consider varied options.

It could act like a much more dynamic system that you switch in and out of points depending upon content or toon role. Right now, CP allocation is VERY rote.

RavenSworn

I support a progression system, but something less combat-oriented than the CP system currently is.

I don't like the cp system but I know that an mmo must have a vertical progression system. It's a no brainer that players want to feel stronger and better, the longer they stay in the game.

I feel that while the cp system was implemented with the right intent, it is now in need of a revamp. When it first started, veteran levels were considered as the worst kind of progression. Right now, cp seems to take its place.

My suggestion for the change though is to

1)increase the base level up to 70 or 80, transferring some of the power creep to the base level and slightly increase the overland mob difficulty (in base dmg and health). The current base level is too short for a new player to fully experience the content, as well as learning their class.

2) maintain the max cp lvl but instead of spreading it over the 3 trees, limit access to only 1. With this you have consequential choices within the combat and cp framework. So for eg you create a nb, stam based and choose the tank role. You now can either go full sustain with the green tree, full mitigation with the red tree or added damage with the blue tree.

3) because of the cp limitation in terms of added utility for your char, include aspects of the spellcrafting 'rewards' within the cp trees. For eg: with 300cp into the blue tree, your storm atronach now becomes a flame atronach. Or perhaps with 300cp into the red tree, the nb shades now becomes a permanent pet as long as it is slotted.

OR

3) with the limit to cp allocation on 1 tree, make it so that some of the rewards that comes from that tree to be more powerful than its current iteration. For eg 'Windrunning' now affects 10% more. Or higher chances of gaining an extra resource when farming nodes.

There's also an opportunity to tie in horizontal progression to the cp system: if you have gained full levels with the psijic guild and have 300cp in any tree, you now can unlock an additional ability that is non combat oriented, something like water walking or slow fall.

That's my take on what could be done for cp revamp changes.

munster1404

I like the CP system. Power creep is natural in MMOs, and I like seeing my character progress, even if SOME new content progresses with it and the gap widens between new and old players.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I don't really think you are showing the true cost of the champion system. One of the options states that "Power creep is natural in MMOs." Even if I don't contest that statment, the true cost of the champion system isn't the power creep, its that ZOS adjusts for that power creep by nerfing class skills.

We pay for the champion system by watching our individual class skills get weaker and weaker. Somewhere around Morrowind, ZOS decided that almost every class was over sustaining. Instead of just nerfing the champion system where the cost reduction trees were clearly at fault, they went a step further and torched iconic class skills that have been with us since launch.

For example: DK helping hands passive, which was a huge source of both stamina and magkica Dragonknight sustain got nerfed into uselessness. Other classes paid as well, with nerfs to leeching strikes, repentence, etc. Sorcerer was spared but then Dark Deal got nerfed a bit later in a subsequent patch.

In the last 4 major updates we have gone through BRUTAL "across the board" nerfs. Not just nerfing a skill that was overpowered, but nerfing damage, utility and sustain class wide.

So the real question is this: When ZOS inevitably brings out the nerf bat for the "natural" power creep, what source of power do they carve out first?

I'd rather they adjust any power creep in the champion tree. Numbers are boring. Skills and class utility is exciting. I'd rather have lower numbers and be able to do more powerful and unique things with my class skills.

TL;DR A vote to keep the champion system is a vote to continue to ruin class uniqueness and power. ZOS will continue to try to balance the game, and the controls have to go some where.

“I'd rather have lower numbers and be able to do more powerful and unique things with my class skills.” seems like an oxymoronic relationship. Unique usually means more powerful and powerful usually equates to bigger numbers.