Reforming movement/snares in PvP

LeifErickson

Spot on as always @Joy_Division. While reading through your post there were many things I thought in my head that needed to be said and you said them soon after.

One of those things I would like to mention again and that is about how templar and dragonknight are slower classes by nature and in turn have snares within their passives. I personally would love if snares were just as hard to apply as they are to get rid of (and I wish most debuffs were like that *cough major defile), but the truth is these classes are slow. They need some way to keep their opponents from just running away from them. I don't know about you guys but I hate it when players just run from me and there is nothing I can do, especially during the swift patch when it was so easy.

Hopefully ZOS can find the right balance for this so that it doesn't feel pointless to play a slow class but it also doesn't feel pointless to play a class susceptible to snares.

heavier

Joy_Division wrote: »

Apologies for the wall of text.

tl;dr
jk thought I'd speak before reading because I can tell the direction the thread is going:


dps has the meta of burst
the burst meta is amplified by slow ticking DoT which makes the direction your HP is headed, entirely nebulous
tank has the meta of max stat
not dying takes the most amount of resources and resistances (res/res), CP benefits tank the most IMO. now that I am built to dispense damage better inside of battleground I don't think I have encountered any unkillable tanks in 4 v 1.

sustain has the meta of movement
if I am unable to dictate the range of engagement I die pretty much
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/451927/lets-talk-about-sustain-in-bg-and-how-its-imbalanced

tab targeted combat is something of a poor system for my playstyle because moving fast at high radians doesn't throw off aim...changing direction doesn't do anything because projectiles follow u throw walls...

I am determined to force eso to action combat. it's necessary for survival imo

heavier

Vapirko wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Light and Heavy armor currently have the same speed. That does not make any sense regarding verisimilitude or from a balance perspective if heavy is supposed to be designed to take/absorb hits whereas light is not

If I can be as tanky in light/medium armor as in heavy (aka absorb the same amount of incoming damage), while still dealing the same and/or more damage, why shouldn´t I be able to move at the same pace in heavy as with the other armor types?

are you daft? HEAVY armor. it weighs more. tho tbh you should be able to move quickly still just at double the cost XD

Vapirko wrote: »

Here´s what I would do:

- Forward Momentum: Make snare immunity 6 seconds. 4 seconds is ridiculous and was overnerfed.

- Reduce cost of shuffle and increase duration of snare immunity further

I'll take it

Vapirko wrote: »

- I like your suggestion about mobility/speed pots. Increase the duration and add a reagent that makes it possible for magicka setups to have a Immovable + Speed + Restore Magicka

why not just do what normal videogames do and not have pot CDs all linked...if a pot has a dissimilar effect, why should its CD be triggered to the fullest length possible by the other pot. never played a game where MP and HP pots have a shared CD.

Vapirko wrote: »

- Remove or reduce the majority of snares attached to skills and passives (Templar and DK´s passives) but keep powerful snares attached to ultimates (nova, sleet storm, etc).

eh, those aoes don't really make sense to have massive snares...perhaps a minor snare...but it still doesn't make sense that such huge damages also come with a guarantee of killing targets determined to escape...they're the highest DPS in the game when you factor in that it can be cast on as many people as are able to fit in its AoE. if SA gets snare removed why would something 5x as damaging have snare? because sleet is cold? perhaps, but I would need to be sitting in it for a good 6 hours and be previously inactive for it slow me down at all!
I used to get up at 6 am and do track workouts while it is freezing out and sure you're miserable when you're NOOB but after you learn to warm your own body, things speed up; if the snare was applied gradually forcing victims to escape immediately or risk being caught, sure good it's balanced, otherwise no

nova is reminiscent of a skill in TERA which gave Knockdown: it doesn't make sense for nova to have snare ontologically but a KD? SURE. AoE KD gets everyone's attention and if they are able to escape they sure better fast. anyways it seems snare on nova has been removed but I digress. perhaps you meant 'meteor' same text can apply to that...a dot meteor that slows my movement...WTF that makes 0 sense. maybe meteor shower is a better title.

However, big groups do not need an easier time applying major expedition. Solo and small scale players get four seconds from skills, if you’re playing a stam sorc or warden. There’s absolutely zero reason big groups should have the advantage. Rapids should have one version that works only while mounted and the other should be 4 seconds to bring it in line with other forms of major expedition. ZOS made a big deal out of normalizing skills, yet this is a glaring inconsistency between large and small groups or solo players. People can argue that you need to recast it often anyway, but that’s beside the point. The potential for the advantage should not exist.

I think it gets removed if you get hit or cast a skill?

Qbiken

@Vapirko
My point is that I would rather give smaller groups back it's former mobility rather than nerfing the mobility that's left.

usmcjdking

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

heavier

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

k
sustain is awful
it was nerfed to make infinite tank and infinite DPS less viable
it seems like in this paradigm of the only nuance in the game being complete ***, somehow snares and roots got meta

I don't know if they were buffed or were just always insanely powerful but there used to be more mobility so nobody noticed
anyways the role of the snare is to force a reaction from a player...by casting a snare remover/preventer or to spam gapclose and hop across the battlefield like some kind of pinball

I'm not so much sure that snare is over-fulfilled its application, but I do feel that the movement speed penalty is too harsh considering how carelessly they may be dispensed.
snares are not underperforming
snares abuse the cost to break them.

if you're concerned about why they're still an issue when there is a counter built into the game, it's because they cannot be ignored they are so strong and because the counter costs a lot for something that needs to be reapplied every 4 seconds
snares completely favor whichever group has the majority as it's just another level of wasted resource for someone who wishes to escape...escape is a total joke anyways because of 0 CD lockon gapclose what a stupid idea

Vapirko

@Qbiken sure I can definitely get behind that. But knowing ZOS chances are very, very slim. Have they ever reverted a big change like this once it went live? They nerfed a TON of mobility skills. They already said they’re not planning on making a lot of combat changes in the upcoming patch, and as much as I hate the idea of slowing combat down, the fact is that groups can just rapids and chase/snare you down so easily right now and there’s really no equal counterplay/ability option available to solo and small groups. I’m absolutely fine with big groups having their rapids, if I can get something like .8 seconds of immunity per medium piece and a cost reduction on shuffle, and possibly a slight buff to speed pots again. There just has to be some semblance of a level playing field when it comes to available tools between solo/small scale and big groups.

heavier

Vapirko wrote: »

@Qbiken sure I can definitely get behind that. But knowing ZOS chances are very, very slim. Have they ever reverted a big change like this once it went live? They nerfed a TON of mobility skills. They already said they’re not planning on making a lot of combat changes in the upcoming patch, and as much as I hate the idea of slowing combat down, the fact is that groups can just rapids and chase/snare you down so easily right now and there’s really no equal counterplay/ability option available to solo and small groups. I’m absolutely fine with big groups having their rapids, if I can get something like .8 seconds of immunity per medium piece and a cost reduction on shuffle, and possibly a slight buff to speed pots again. There just has to be some semblance of a level playing field when it comes to available tools between solo/small scale and big groups.

exactly
there is literally no escape once you're focused (although I escape the instant more than 1 person starts casting on me, but I have coward's and am stam)
it's so bent out of shape that in 4 v 4 v 4 if one person gets focused it becomes 1 v 8 until that person dies.

heavier

+ every skill is lockon is this 2004 wtf

ToRelax

Only read the op for now got some thoughts on that.

- I think the best way to make expedition buffs feel more worthwhile is adding large amounts of snare resistance to certain skills. 15% is useless, 50% is significant. The numbers would have to be dependent on how many sources of snare resistance a common build is expected to run. Stacking it over 50% or so should only be possible with some serious investment, but it wouldn't be game breaking if some builds reach permanent snare immunity that way, provided they give enough up for it.

- To make rapids and purge better skills for small scale and solo play, they should ideally give much more powerful buffs to the caster than other players. Like not losing the buff when casting other skills on rapids and removing more effects with purge.

- I find it funny how Lightning Form is considered such a bad skill for movement now by many players. The main reason it's opportunity cost increased is the loss of the overload bar, and that is only for people who used Lightning Form in the first place, since it now protects your shields. If it really was the cost that's the problem, Race against time has you covered, and that skill also happens to be vastly more effective for kiting thanks to the sprint cost reduction and because 3 seconds is just enough to bridge the time until bolt escape is at base cost again.

idk

Joy_Division wrote: »

The movement/snare system is fundamentally flawed. If it’s not getting an overhaul, we need more options to free us from playing in virtual molasses. I do not think the ability to functionally move in the open world is appreciated because of the blanket manner in which mobility nerfs were implemented in Murkmire. It’s hard to “fix” ESO’s current all or nothing system, but I’d much rather the default be “all” (i.e. we have accessible immunity to snares and move at normal speed) than being snared the whole time I’m not in Vampire Mist. The Rapid Mauever changes above make the skill accessible to everyone and even the playing field, without removing the basic functionality of the skill which is required because of the flawed movement/snared system ESO has had since launch.

While it may have been mentioned, with all that Zos has homogenized via the major/minor buff/debuff system, there is a lot here that is not. All that likely weighs on all the additional stresses to the server Zos has added over the years which negatively impacts Cyrodiils performance.

I am not trying to make this about server performance (and I dislike suggesting homogenization) but it is something Zos needs to consider with any changes they make to the game.

heavier

ToRelax wrote: »

Only read the op for now got some thoughts on that.

- I think the best way to make expedition buffs feel more worthwhile is adding large amounts of snare resistance to certain skills. 15% is useless, 50% is significant. The numbers would have to be dependent on how many sources of snare resistance a common build is expected to run. Stacking it over 50% or so should only be possible with some serious investment, but it wouldn't be game breaking if some builds reach permanent snare immunity that way, provided they give enough up for it.

- To make rapids and purge better skills for small scale and solo play, they should ideally give much more powerful buffs to the caster than other players. Like not losing the buff when casting other skills on rapids and removing more effects with purge.

- I find it funny how Lightning Form is considered such a bad skill for movement now by many players. The main reason it's opportunity cost increased is the loss of the overload bar, and that is only for people who used Lightning Form in the first place, since it now protects your shields. If it really was the cost that's the problem, Race against time has you covered, and that skill also happens to be vastly more effective for kiting thanks to the sprint cost reduction and because 3 seconds is just enough to bridge the time until bolt escape is at base cost again.

this man is a genius if snare resistance = reduced effectiveness of snare...shorter duration less speed debuff...give cowards snare resist :0 and minor expedition when not sprinting

pls menz need buff zos

Minno

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

I think the solutions will help here to keep it two sides:
1. mag builds to get melee mag weapon with mobilty buffs. Or resto staff to get mobilty buff off one of the underused morphs (quick siphon, blessing of restoration, secondary morph of healing springs that no one uses, etc.).
2. buff shuffle so that the cost is cheaper and maybe remove evasion to grant 10% speed or 5% speed + 5% sprint speed.
3. snares reviewed and removed/changed on abilities that are granting too much benefit (I.E. rending giving a bleed AND a 40% snare for cheap cost but something like caltrops is stationary and should be high snare).
4. keep gap closer snare entirely (since melee needs to connect and they already adjusted this snare in another update).

I would start with #1 and #2 first and see if things change. Then move onto #3 with specific abilities changed slowly over time.

Waffennacht

I wouldn't mind just starting at one of the most important points;

When snared, you're still slower than the equivalent expedition buff.

First off these need to be additive/subtractive; 30% snare vs 30% speed buff should just cancel out

usmcjdking

Minno wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

I think the solutions will help here to keep it two sides:
1. mag builds to get melee mag weapon with mobilty buffs. Or resto staff to get mobilty buff off one of the underused morphs (quick siphon, blessing of restoration, secondary morph of healing springs that no one uses, etc.).
2. buff shuffle so that the cost is cheaper and maybe remove evasion to grant 10% speed or 5% speed + 5% sprint speed.
3. snares reviewed and removed/changed on abilities that are granting too much benefit (I.E. rending giving a bleed AND a 40% snare for cheap cost but something like caltrops is stationary and should be high snare).
4. keep gap closer snare entirely (since melee needs to connect and they already adjusted this snare in another update).

I would start with #1 and #2 first and see if things change. Then move onto #3 with specific abilities changed slowly over time.

Most of them seem pretty reasonable to me.

I personally want to see evasion and escape be far less common than it currently is. I think snares get blamed because people see them as the primary counter to LOSing - and there's so much cheap/free/skill-less damage out there that being denied the ability to LOS usually means you get shredded.

Hotdog_23

I don't pvp much but my thoughts are this.

Snares are too much. Makes the game unfun.


DK, move expedition to wings and away from chains so it can be used outside of direct battle.

Templar needs a source of expedition in the class. No idea where to add it but stand your ground is long gone.

No opinion on rapids as I have never really fought against that many ball groups and when I do everything sorta seems to stop. From a pve side I love the skill and don't want to see it nerfed in anyway that hurts or limits it in pve.

Thanks

StarOfElyon

It's one thing to be slowed down. It's so brutal not being able to move at all until an entire team is finished dumping their ultimates on you.

Vapirko

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The whole snare vs snare immunity system needs a rework. Snares should be used to counter hyper mobility, not to destroy those that don't have any, and I don't even wanna talk about the root spam.

This is spot on and something that unfortunately it seems that ZOS just cannot understand, or based on their changes it seems that they don't. And ZOS had the chance. Mobility was way too high but not only did they nerf it really hard they add abilities like Time Stop and Permafrost. I might honestly pay crowns to get an explanation as to why they continue over extending on changes. The frustrating issues in this game are compounded by the fact that they seem inexplicable and so obviously a mistake to anyone who frequents PvP.

heavier

Minno wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

I think the solutions will help here to keep it two sides:
1. mag builds to get melee mag weapon with mobilty buffs. Or resto staff to get mobilty buff off one of the underused morphs (quick siphon, blessing of restoration, secondary morph of healing springs that no one uses, etc.).
2. buff shuffle so that the cost is cheaper and maybe remove evasion to grant 10% speed or 5% speed + 5% sprint speed.
3. snares reviewed and removed/changed on abilities that are granting too much benefit (I.E. rending giving a bleed AND a 40% snare for cheap cost but something like caltrops is stationary and should be high snare).
4. keep gap closer snare entirely (since melee needs to connect and they already adjusted this snare in another update).

I would start with #1 and #2 first and see if things change. Then move onto #3 with specific abilities changed slowly over time.

as long as gapclose has an exponential increase in cost for spamming it, sure give it a minor snare. 40% is too high obviously, but you make a point, nerfing ppl who only pvp to do high damage on running targets would likely cause hurt feelings.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

I think the solutions will help here to keep it two sides:
1. mag builds to get melee mag weapon with mobilty buffs. Or resto staff to get mobilty buff off one of the underused morphs (quick siphon, blessing of restoration, secondary morph of healing springs that no one uses, etc.).
2. buff shuffle so that the cost is cheaper and maybe remove evasion to grant 10% speed or 5% speed + 5% sprint speed.
3. snares reviewed and removed/changed on abilities that are granting too much benefit (I.E. rending giving a bleed AND a 40% snare for cheap cost but something like caltrops is stationary and should be high snare).
4. keep gap closer snare entirely (since melee needs to connect and they already adjusted this snare in another update).

I would start with #1 and #2 first and see if things change. Then move onto #3 with specific abilities changed slowly over time.

Most of them seem pretty reasonable to me.

I personally want to see evasion and escape be far less common than it currently is. I think snares get blamed because people see them as the primary counter to LOSing - and there's so much cheap/free/skill-less damage out there that being denied the ability to LOS usually means you get shredded.

LOS is way overplayed
I understand it is the most meta thing ever and you come to accept it after x many hours logged in pvp, but it's bad. action combat would fix this massive hole in game design.

heavier

StarOfElyon wrote: »

It's one thing to be slowed down. It's so brutal not being able to move at all until an entire team is finished dumping their ultimates on you.

yes. people don't appreciate how large of difference 5% in movement speed makes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBB11WItRbc
this is bout 1% difference in speed, maybe less
70% movement speed debuff? it's just another root tbqh.

heavier

excuse me this is 0.625% difference in speed

montiferus

I think it is past time we hear from @MalagenR again on this issue. By his own admission he is the top dog on PS4 and I think we need more of his insight. He promised to send me clips of his top tier gameplay but unfortunately as of yet 3 days have gone by and I have yet to hear back from him. Maybe this thread can help him remove his shyness to display his true greatness.

@MalagenR please come back o the thread and impart your wisdom upon us.

heavier

I think the act of sprinting alone should ignore 50% of snare but shouldn't accelerate as quickly...but also a snare shouldn't apply the full effect instantly, instead ramping up over time spent in snare...single target tab targeted snares? forget about except for gap close giving maybe a 20% snare.
snares need to play off situational awareness and sustain, snaring someone with no stamina left should be 100x as effective compared to snaring someone with 15% stamina (where escape should be entirely expected), instead we are playing in a balance where 30% stamina forces me to cast forward momentum which dunno brings me down 13% stamina, insufficient to escape with because I will soon face more stacking cc, so even if I pot stamina I'm done for.

snare should ignorable if I perceive it and react immediately, without costing me the very resource I need to run.

if I'm in "escape mode" I need to spend stamina on the following

1. Sprint
2. Breaking Root
3. Breaking Stun
4. HoT
5. Snare removal
6. Dodging

sure you can say "just don't enter losing fights" but then you'd betray the fact that BG is a feeding ground for premades and the games core through which combat is undertaken is very primitive! in order to avoid losing fights I would need to alter my playstyle to match the clunky combat system and start queueing with premades. recently I have become aware that battlegrounds are ranked and queues are decided by rating in peak hours, so it makes sense that people are invested enough to premade, potentially ruining the fun of casuals.

alas the entire system of battlegrounds is fairly casual.
there is respawn in deathmatch: it isn't a TRUE deathmatch because you can win just by feeding on a gimped team, and when a team dies they can just resurrect and resume the fight. real deathmatch ends when all opponents have been eliminated and continues through multiple rounds if needed.
the objectives in the other formats are won by holding: domination and crazy king are won by holding flags, chaosball is won by holding a ball, and capture the relic, the most exciting (but also frustrating) is won by carrying (an advanced form of holding).

escape is a great idea when the party of randoms I just got matched with wipes and I'm the last one alive, which is often the case.
escape is a great idea when suddenly I find out we're facing a premade at the start of the round and they have chosen to focus me.

snares just overloads the stamina component and is fairly prevelant thus needs addressing

not sure it's an easy thing to balance overall, but a temporary solution would be addressing how OP it is.

heavier

montiferus wrote: »

I think it is past time we hear from @MalagenR again on this issue. By his own admission he is the top dog on PS4 and I think we need more of his insight. He promised to send me clips of his top tier gameplay but unfortunately as of yet 3 days have gone by and I have yet to hear back from him. Maybe this thread can help him remove his shyness to display his true greatness.

@MalagenR please come back o the thread and impart your wisdom upon us.

@MalagenR summons

iCaliban

I think snares are in a good place. Not a popular opinion on the forum maybe, but snare meta >>> mobility meta, where stamina toons were untargetable and could run massive damage with next to no risk.

evoniee

snares at this moment:
play stam nb in 1vx scenario > snared > press shuffle for the mighty '2.5 sec' anti snare > proceed to LOS or cloak > snared again.

like cmon, medium doest have any *** related to movement beside sprint speed which is useless face to face, and one it countered (snare) it pretty much lesser benefit than using HA tanking style.

lueckgenb16_ESO

Please ZOS/Bethesda listen to this man. He is so right on this!

Fix movement in PvP before the last solo or small group pvp is gone and zerging is the last thing to do in cyro.

Running around like a giant ball, everyone spamming ONE ability. This is not what you intended pvp in ESO to be ZOS!

Please Obi-Wan ZOS-nobi you're our only hope!

frozywozy

Looks like ZOS decided to ignore entirely one of their class rep and decided to listen to the others class reps 1vXers who wanted retreating maneuvers nerf to assure that every playstyle feel miserable in constant snares.

Ranger209

I personally would like to see roll dodge cure root/snare and provide immunity to them for 4 seconds. In doing this I would like to see shuffle get 100% dodge chance for .4 seconds per piece of medium armor as compensation, and forward momentum get 4 seconds of major expedition and a reflect ability that specifically reflects all roots and snares back on their caster.

I think everyone needs access to individual root/snare removal and immunity and putting it on roll/dodge seems like a solid solution to me. In my mind roots and snares shouldn't shut a person down, they should interrupt their rhythm from an offensive and defensive standpoint for a brief time. Causing them to burn a cooldown to free themselves of the snare/root, but then allowing them to have a chance to attack, heal, or change position over the next four seconds before being vulnerable to another snare/root. They could also add it to one class specific ability for each class. but everyone should have access to it in all armor types and whether or not you are a stam or mag character.

Shuffle had 25% dodge chance for the duration of the ability or was it .5 seconds per piece of medium armor? Not a shuffle user as a mag sorc main. All I know is it sure seemed to be for the duration when all my attacks would get dodged on someone for 10 seconds or more, I always assumed that was shuffle at work. At 0.4 second per piece they would be 100% immune for 2 seconds with 5 pieces and 2.8 seconds with 7 pieces. If that is too long it could be reduced to 0.2 or 0.3 seconds per piece.

Forward momentum would need something to compensate as well. Major expedition is fairly easy to get for most classes so having 1 more ability with it doesn't seem like to big of a deal and is fitting for a skill called forward momentum. To enhance the skill by right of its name the snare/root reflect would make people tread a little more cautiously when applying roots snares and increases the users forward momentum not only through a temporary speed buff but by also snaring rooting people that are trying to slow them down. Seems like fun counterplay to roots/snares. This could be quite powerful and maybe the duration of that particular aspect could be halved to 2 seconds of the 4 second major expedition buff if that is the case. Both of these skills could also have their costs increased as well to reduce the ability to spam them.

Thogard

usmcjdking wrote: »

I feel like this is a one-sided conversation that is focused more on removal and escaping than the application and the use of snares and if that is being fulfilled, underperforming or abused. The discussion here doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

Agree 100%