Reforming movement/snares in PvP

Joy_Division
Joy_Division
Class Representative
Apologies for the wall of text. This is too important for a tl;dr. Movement and snares need to be clearly and specifically explained as it's clear to me their importance are not and have not been appreciated for the past 5 years.

The movement/snare system in ESO is flawed

As far as PvP goes, the most disliked change I have heard about this update is, to quote one particular player, "can't f***ing move." It seems this complaint of snares/roots has been around for years (who here remembers when Bombard stacked?) and now this has been compounded with a drastic reduction in speed. It’s high time to make thoughtful changes.

In general, ESO has many (versatile) skills and passives that snare and very few (overspecialized) abilities to remove them, which are all but mandated if you don’t feel like dying repeatedly. ESO is also very much an all or nothing system in that either you are fast and have snare immunity or you’re snared and slow. There isn’t any middle ground. The best speed buff in the game (+30%) is restrictive and possesses the same potency as weak snares (-30%) that comes from class passives (e.g. Warmth, Sacred Ground). Moreover, according to this post here https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6c2q7p/movement_speed/, snare debuffs are calculated after movement buffs, which basically means they slow us down more than buffs speed us up. I don’t know if this is true, but even if it’s not you’re going to run into the same problem: you top speed buff is less potent than the snare from an offensive ability I spam (e.g. Reflective Light), So even if you have major expedition, if you’re snared, you are slower than people without the buff who are chasing you. Which is crazy.

The lack of a middle ground is painful because that basically means if you don’t have immunity, you’re screwed when it comes to movement. It makes the major expedition buff less potent than it ought to be, even before the issue of whether or not the 4050 magicka cost Boundless Storm is worth 4 seconds of +30% movement, which in my opinion is not.

tl;dr: It’s an overly simplified system that treats movement minor component to combat when it’s absolutely crucial.

As this is the way ESO has worked since forever, we have 4 ½ years of PvP experience and have seen pretty much only been 3 mobility/escape skills that have been worth using if you are not a Nightblade and think “I need to move there right now because if I don't, I'm going to die”.
  1. Forward Momentum (at least the 8 second version. I do not have enough experience with the current 4 second version to comment on its efficacy)
  2. Elusive Mist (the other morph is garbage)
  3. Streak (although the "whiplash" version and going up/down hills make me want to throw my computer out the window). Streak probably should get an asterisk as it pretty much requires two casts without someone gap-closing. Nevertheless, sorcerers usually can spend a hefty amount of magicka using this to get from one place to another.
What about Retreating Maneuvers? Nope, it costs 8100 stamina and drops off way too easily (even by casting the Rune Focus buff). Works OK if you are in a group with someone else casting on you (and healing you), but outside of that it’s too restrictive (see more detailed explanation at end of post).

OK, let’s not pretend like the past 4 ½ years didn’t exist. Instead, let’s try to learn from that time and come to some conclusions. Without freedom of movement, you’re going to die too much to discourage people from moving away from the faction herd, let alone try to solo open world. Even the major expedition on its own doesn’t cut it because the moment you are even slightly snared, you’re slower than your pursuers. If you are in a group without freedom of moment, you are the metaphorical fat kid who will get left behind and killed.

Without an overhaul to the existing system, that’s the situation we are all playing in: because movement restrictions are so pervasive and easy to apply (indeed, being snared is probably the default stutus while in a fight), if you can’t move, you’re going to get zerged down and die. It’s time to drop old standards, like the 4 second boost of speed that has been with us since launch. The reason why Elusive Mist's 4 seconds cut it is because it also provides immunity to snares and stuns, in addition to providing a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation. Using that skill will get me to where I want to go, no other 4 second movement skill can make such a claim, which is why with the nerf to mobility options many people are going back to Vampire for Elusive Mist.

In my estimation, the system ought to be completely uprooted as it has a fundamental flaw that various band-aid fixes will not address: the original designers clearly underrated how important movement is in the open world, which is why snares are too strong and easy to apply, whereas counters are too few and often too ineffective.

But I imagine overhauling the system isn’t going to happen, so what can be done in the short term?

Nerf Snares!

I’m not going to argue against this angle, however there are pitfalls.

If ZOS implements a major/minor snare system as a lot of people suggest, I think those people will be disappointed because ESO;s mechanics are already functionally like that and such a system could potentially make matters worse. Snares overwrite rather than accumulate, which means you’re only going to be hit with one (highest) debuff at a time. So, a major and minor system will allow for multiple snares to stack, which might slow me down even more and just create more additional debuffs to cleanse. I don’t want a system that supposed to improve the system to potentially make things worse.
I think what the major/minor snare people mean is to mirror the speed system and cap the strongest snares at 30%. I wish they would make this explicitly clear as the 30% cap is much more important given that ESO’s snares currently do not stack. While I can get behind a 30%/10% system and won’t argue against it, I still think there are drawbacks that make it so bigger changes are needed elsewhere. 30/10 is still going to get you hit with multiple snare debuffs (quite often too, Templars and DKs have passive which auto snare). Also if the largest snare in the game is 30%, people who play open world might be happy, but that snare is going to do diddly squat protecting a castle breech Vs. a large number of incoming players. I know people hate snares, but they do serve an important function for strategy.

I could get behind some sort of immunity timer after being snared or rooted, ala the “hard” CC stun mechanic. But as it is right now, Templars and DKs are slow. If their opponents received free 5 or 7 windows of immunity without investing in a skill, they can run circles around the slow classes in addition to pretty much nullifying their Warmth and Sacred Ground passives. If we’re going to go this route, then ZOS is going to have to discard the idea of a “slow” class or said “slow” classes are going to exasperating to play.

I want argue against dealing with the issue from the snare angle, but I think it would be preferable to instead provide us what we want, more effective options to counter them.

That being said, there are certain snare/root skills that ought to be looked at.
  1. Time Stop: a max range AOE stun is already questionable. That the skills puts an obnoxiously high snare that steadily increases is throw my computer out the window frustrating. Keep the stun so PvEers can still do Moonhunter Keep and not blame me for nerfs; however, that snare has zero business being that punishing and probably should not be there at all.
  2. Rending slashes. As if this skill and the accompanying bleed wasn’t strong enough, 40% is too much as it means even if a target has major expedition, they’re still going to still be slower than the normal speed of the user (even a heavy armor spec!). I understand duel wield has no gap closer, but under the current system on Live, where’s the counter play for a magicka oriented target aside from Streak or Vamp Mist?
  3. Stampede. 60% is way over the top when this can be spammed.
  4. Teleport Strike. Is it necessary for this to snare when it can be spammed and Nightblades have more movement enhancing and hindering abilities than any other class in the game?
  5. The other thing I’d strongly consider is that snare durations should not overwrite.
  6. If snares are calculated last in the speed formula, that needs to change as this means a 30% snare will slow you down more than a 30% major expedition buff will speed you up.

Expanding movement options

This is what ZOS should do as the underlying system is busted. Just give us options to at least deal with it.

The current 4 seconds model of major expedition is not worth a cast, let alone 4000 off a resource pool.
What is the purpose of this buff anyway? If it’s meant to be an escape skill, it fails because I’m still slower than my pursuer if snared, my pursuer can sprint faster than what this buff provides, it doesn’t prevent gap closers, etc., etc. Am I really expected to press this every 4 seconds in a fight? Or am I expected to cast this every 4 seconds to get from point A to B? If so, why am I not getting on my horse (oh, because of the in-combat bug…). If it’s meant to be a short burst for tactical movement, it fails because it does not meet the standard of Vampire Mist. 4 seconds of major expedition is pointless. All the skills the provide this buff should be rethought and reformed

The current 12 second potion buff for major expedition is not comparable to the strength of major vitality or stealth detection, which have the same duration. It is too short.
Another issue with potions is that magicka players do not feel speed is “theirs” as it not possible to combine the speed component with restore magicka. There are two ways to look at this.
    The original 36 second duration to major expedition was a legit and I would say balanced option for a magicka class. You got a potent effect, but paid a real price in losing your primary resource management. That created a tough choice and IMHO that’s a good thing. I used speed pots on my magplar and felt there were times it was really good and felt there were other times it got me killed because I ran out of magicka. I also felt it was possible to play the class without being forced to be a Vampire. This model was interesting, provided players with legit choices that deviated from the cookie-cutter meta, and allowed a more “play the way you want” environment. Of course, this only works if the speed potion only went with player’s secondary resource and thus comes with a drawback. ESO should have more mechanics that force us to make tough choices like this. It would be interesting is using a speed pot automatically correspond the restore/regen to the player’s secondary attribute. This is why so many players hated the Murkmire patch because it tore the rug out from underneath how we played without providing an alternative.
[List=2] But I want speed and my primary resource! Okay, but you and I both know there is no drawback and thus zero business having speed be 36 seconds.

Light and Heavy armor currently have the same speed. That does not make any sense regarding verisimilitude or from a balance perspective if heavy is supposed to be designed to take/absorb hits whereas light is not.

There ought to be more “I need to move there right now because if I don't, I'm going to die” skills than forcing people to use a two-handed weapon or be a vampire. If the Psijic skill Accelerate is supposed to fill this function, simply granting major expedition for a few seconds (with one morph having a cast-time) isn’t cutting it. With ESO system of snares that are way more potent and plentiful than speed boosts, we need immunity or teleportation.

We played through Summerset and failed to examine the speed problem. The issue always was the ease in which speed buffs stacked without a punishing system of diminishing returns. We now know Swift at 10% base speed was too strong and that has been addressed. We don’t need to suffer through playing in Molasses any longer as we now appreciate the dangers of easy to stack speed.

What I would do:
  • A skill that provides 4 seconds of major expedition is not something I want to slot, let alone cast. If it’s just going to provide speed, it needs to have a longer duration. If it’s 4 seconds, it needs to provide immunity as well.
  • Speed pots are 24 seconds and magicka+speed is possible (again, I think the more interesting choice would be 36 seconds and automatically secondary resource, but not sure how that could be done).
  • Immunity skills not restricted to Two-Handed, Vampire, and Medium Armor. I would also buff the alternative crappy morphs like Baleful Mist and Elude as this would force us to make a hard choice.
  • Well-fitted armor and Medium probably should have *small* buffs to their base speed. Light should have a smaller buff such that it is slower than Medium and faster than Heavy.
  • Speed has diminishing returns to reign in potential abuse of people trying to stack it

Overhauling Rapid Maneuvers

The way this skill is currently designed is bad and boring in just about every way. Am I really supposed to blow 8100 stamina to get a movement buff that is slower than someone else sprinting that falls off the moment I try to heal myself? Wouldn’t I use this because I’m in danger of dying and need to move and heal? So, I’m guessing it’s just for organized “ball-groups”? Why? Who thought this was a good idea?

What to do with this skill? Well, the first thing would be to make it so the other morph is worth considering such there is at least some variety in PvP.

As it currently stands, organized groups need require this skill otherwise the game is not playable because of the oversimplified movement system, which means those who are outnumbered play in virtual molasses. It is a huge barrier for entry for newer/PuG groups. Can’t move = you're dead because it’s so mindlessly easy for enemy blobs to spam snares and roots inside Negates, Destro bombs, and Harmony buffed Gravity Crushes. Just as solo players need FM/Vamp Mist, groups need Rapids.

These are the biggest problems with how the skill works on Live. Note: parallel arguments can be made for Purge.
  1. 8100 stamina is ridiculously expensive
  2. The buffs dropping off when you do just about anything means it requires a specialized build to keep reapplying this skill. I’m not sure what the thinking was in making a skill crucial to survival in PvP, but putting the cost at 8000. People would only hit it once?
  3. It was more than a mistake restricting these skills to group play, it was a blunder. It just screws everyone else and makes them Vicious Death fodder.
  4. The other morph is utterly inadequate. Not removing the very things that are killing us for 8 seconds or minor expedition? Every group is running the same thing which makes gameplay dull and monotonous. (I would say Cleanse is a legit morph for Purge).
What this basically means is that this absolutely essential skill (along with purge) is only accessible to organized groups who have a specialized build spam it. This is a terrible mechanic.

Without overhauling the snare/movement system, these reforms would at least help alleviate the symptoms
  1. Make the cost reasonable and able to hit people outside of group again. I don’t want to believe people in PvE zones complaining about getting a speed buff influenced the change, but the current situation is intolerable so put it in Battle-Spirt. Yes, I know ZOS would rather not use Battle-Spirt for reasons that are real, but this is super important.
  2. Cut down the number of people it hits to something like 4 or 6, have it last for 5 seconds and not be removed. It is spammed because ZOS made the change where it gets removed if you sneeze. We spam this because we’ll die if we don’t.
  3. If larger groups tries to get away with a spammer, stop that issue by having the buff refresh on 4 or 6 new people and overwrite the 4 or6 it previously hit. One of the 4 or 6 is always yourself, always
I think these goals will at least make Rapid maneuvers more accessible to all alliance war players and require organized groups to at least approach using the skill more thoughtfully. Ball group wants to run rapids? Need 4 stamina players in group. If Purge was reformed similarly, if they wanted to have purge, they’d need 4 magicka players in group. Smallman wants same treatment? 1 of each slots it. These changes would also encourage more diversity within groups.

There would be no more rapid/purge spammers, no glaring disadvantages because groups cant convince someone to spam it for then, and we’d get the same (and achievable) functionality for a 4 man or a 20 man group. Choices and reasonable sacrifices for value in builds. No 8000 costs!

Make it reasonable cost, make it limited in scope, make it valuable to cast by not having it removed, make it prioritize group members but able to hit everyone, and bam ... no more scary ball groups always ahead of everyone else.

Conclusion:

The movement/snare system is fundamentally flawed. If it’s not getting an overhaul, we need more options to free us from playing in virtual molasses. I do not think the ability to functionally move in the open world is appreciated because of the blanket manner in which mobility nerfs were implemented in Murkmire. It’s hard to “fix” ESO’s current all or nothing system, but I’d much rather the default be “all” (i.e. we have accessible immunity to snares and move at normal speed) than being snared the whole time I’m not in Vampire Mist. The Rapid Mauever changes above make the skill accessible to everyone and even the playing field, without removing the basic functionality of the skill which is required because of the flawed movement/snared system ESO has had since launch.

Edit: I've tried to get confirmation of the speed formula and when/how snares get applied, but it's hard to test accurately and most answers I've received have the general "feeling" that snares %s slow people down more than the same speed % would speed us up. This could be a mistaken impression, given that snares are so prevalent and strong, whereas speed are few and not very potent.

In either event, something absolutely needs to happen. There are so good observations in this thread made by posters. One I will highlight here:
jcm2606 wrote: »

Firstly, the movement speed equation needs to be rewritten such that all bonuses, whether positive or negative, are additive. From the thread linked in the OP, it seems the speed equation is sort of like:
speed = base * min(2.0, 1.0 + Buffs + Sprint * SprintSpeed) * (1.0 - Snare)

If this is the case, it needs to be rewritten ASAP. It should be written like:
speed = base * min(2.0, 1.0 + Buffs + Sprint * SprintSpeed - Snare)

In the first case, the snares are applied through a multiplication against the final speed. This means that snares hit faster moving builds disproportionately harder than slower moving builds. If we apply a 40% snare to a build with no speed buffs, the snare slows the target by 40% (1.0 * 0.4 = 0.4), obviously. However, throw in Major and Minor Expedition (stamsorc with Major Expedition from a bow?), that becomes 56% (1.4 * 0.4 = 0.56). This is not okay, and needs to be fixed by making it additive, as I outlined above. Making it additive would mean a 40% snare is a 40% snare, regardless of the target's build.

This is going by the assumption that snares are calculated differently. Even if this is not the case, snares need to be less prevalent, less potent, and more difficult to apply so it does not seem like snares are calculated differently.

Edited by Joy_Division on January 26, 2019 1:59AM
  • Crixus8000
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    Some changes would be great but I can see it being hard to balance.

    I find the duration of immunity to be so small. Having only 4 seconds of immunity to heal/buff and go offensive is very limiting, especially when outnumbered.

    Snares are also very bugged, very often they will just go through immunity, making you need to spam forward momentum, wasting all your gcds and resources and making you stuck in place unable to do anything. Poisons ignore immunity all the time too for some dumb reason.

    And as for the potion change, many say increase the length of the expedition but I can't see it being worth it unless it's full time again. Skills like streak are decent for escaping combat (or should be) but for solo/smallscale you need to kite and use los, having your speed for only half the fight doesn't help because when it drops off your going to die.

    I know increasing speed back the way it was causes issues for certain classes and I would love it if they could just buff those classes in ways so they didn't have to rely on snaring their opponent to a stop to get kills. Currently stand your ground doesn't exist, the game has way too much overpowered damage to compared to defensive options. Things like bleeds, oblivion and proc sets make it so hard to solo play and speed helped with that by using los. Speed is just so important in the current state of the game, completely gutting it made solo play/smallscale very frustrating imo.
    Edited by Crixus8000 on January 7, 2019 4:58PM
  • TheStealthDude
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    The imbalance in the number of abilities with snares vs the number of abilities with snare removal is a big problem, but the specific abilities that have snares are a large part of that problem.

    Right now, you really dont need to put any thought into including a snare into your build on almost any class because you will already have at least 1-2 sources of snares on abilities chosen for other reasons. What we need to do is rework abilities so that having a snare is a conscience choice, rather than just the default. You should have to build around including a snare and have to make hard choices in doing so, just like you do with snare removal.

    Right now, snares probably need to be removed from 75% of their current sources, especially from spammable abilities, in order to achieve some sort of balance.

  • Vapirko
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    Snares need a rework yes. AOE snares should be limited in application like Caltrops, not multi function like Time Stop. The damage from caltrops is nothing compared to being stunned and have 5k healing negated. Ranged snares should be nearly non existent or very small.

    However, big groups do not need an easier time applying major expedition. Solo and small scale players get four seconds from skills, if you’re playing a stam sorc or warden. There’s absolutely zero reason big groups should have the advantage. Rapids should have one version that works only while mounted and the other should be 4 seconds to bring it in line with other forms of major expedition. ZOS made a big deal out of normalizing skills, yet this is a glaring inconsistency between large and small groups or solo players. People can argue that you need to recast it often anyway, but that’s beside the point. The potential for the advantage should not exist.

    Secondly shuffle needs a small cost reduction and it also needs to apply .8 seconds of immunity per medium piece. There’s no reason that FM should put perform it making heavy more mobile than medium and 4 seconds is the bare minimum for a functional snare immunity.
  • HansProlo
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    2 steps not overcomplicating things:

    1. major expedition removes snares and makes you immune to snares only for the duration

    if thats not enough to balance things:

    2. buff major expedition to 40-50%


    i think number 1 would already solve a lot
  • technohic
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    The root immunity from FM and Shuffle now are so short that they do not even feel worth it at times. And they are not as soon as someone uses a hindering poison.

    I'd either remove snare and root from the majority of skills outside of where that is their main point, or add removal to a lot of offensive skills as a secondary effect to match.
    Technohic - DC Templar
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    Agreed on this post. Especially the suggestions for individual speed/snare adjustments.
    Heavily Agree with this:
    I know increasing speed back the way it was causes issues for certain classes and I would love it if they could just buff those classes in ways so they didn't have to rely on snaring their opponent to a stop to get kills. Currently stand your ground doesn't exist, the game has way too much overpowered damage to compared to defensive options. Things like bleeds, oblivion and proc sets make it so hard to solo play and speed helped with that by using los, speed is just so important in the current state of the game, completely gutting it made solo play/smallscale very frustrating imo.

    Which classes need the escape? DK/Temp/Warden. How? Maybe I want to give a try, but some classes need it in their kit while others do not.

    DK:
    - they at least got immunity. problem is it's hidden behind the high cost and niche wings that punishes certain builds too much while also punishing stamDKs. They might not need it per set, but MagDK does and they are punished in duels. Some middle ground needed; but maybe immunity becomes a passive on cast with cooldown.
    - Then give one morph of take-flight an escape mechanic that operates on like 30 cost (similar to sorc's overload attack) but instead you target the ground. You get the AOE stun at the original cost of the ability, but only movement/dmg at all other cost intervals.

    Templar:
    - their lack of speed in the kit is an obviously trade-off and is what currently balances templar. But sources outside the kit were nerfed too hard, and the builds that benefited from the speed pre-nerf didn't get adjusted anyway so it feels sluggish for templar these days outside/inside vamp. I think if a melee weapon was added or destro/resto staff got snare immunity, it would give a speed buff to templar without giving immunity to heavy armor stam builds (unless you take the weapon trade-off). Besides, stam heavy builds already have forward momentum, so I don't expect those builds to change anyway.
    - snares clog up purge effect cap. Templar might just need a purge priority reviewed; maybe a separate snare mechanic similar to CC? Nothing worse than being hit by rending slashes and already having 4 effects tacked on (enchant, snare, bleed, melee axe bleed) for one GCD that is WAY cheaper than my purge and the bleeds are per person.

    Warden:
    - warden appears better than most classes. I think this is because of their pre-emptive defenses that allow them to work this way. They could get escape mechanic, but it might requires a nerf to their absorb shield and heal since they were built with this in mind. I am not sure they need it.
    - If they need it, bear could be a transport. You teleport to your bear for the same mechanic. One morph could be escape, the other execute dmg.
    - or use the frozen rune but better optimized to function as 1 morph a ground based group CC and 1 morph an escape mechanic without CC but minor/major maim (whichever has it, cant remember the morphs).

    Sorc:
    - streak needs the cost increase mechanic removed. And major/minor expedition to match armor duration. 2 casts = more mag than it takes to purge so the cost in itself is the downside, and the fact 1 gap closer+snare reaches you anyway.

    Gap closers:
    - remove that global snare! Ambush has it and it slows down mist this patch. If it needs a snare, one morph has to give one basic snare and it should be balanced according to the class kit access. Otherwise remove it entirely it has no business being there.
    - return the dmg nerfs if snares are removed from gap closers.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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  • Solariken
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    Nice write-up. IMO speed pots are in a great place now, it's active sources of ME that need a buff.

    Here is what I'd do about snares:

    Remove ME from Double Take and add 4 sec of r/s immunity.

    Add a r/s purge (no immunity) to Ball of Lightning.

    Remove purge mechanic from Ritual of Retribution and add total r/s immunity while in the circle.

    Dk is fine now with Reflective Scale.

    Warden is fine with passive reduction (maybe buff slightly) and spammable free purge.

    Edit: also reduce the cost of Shuffle by A LOT and reduce the duration of Major Evasion to compensate.
    Edited by Solariken on January 7, 2019 4:16PM
  • Qbiken
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    Light and Heavy armor currently have the same speed. That does not make any sense regarding verisimilitude or from a balance perspective if heavy is supposed to be designed to take/absorb hits whereas light is not

    If I can be as tanky in light/medium armor as in heavy (aka absorb the same amount of incoming damage), while still dealing the same and/or more damage, why shouldn´t I be able to move at the same pace in heavy as with the other armor types?

    Here´s what I would do:

    - Forward Momentum: Make snare immunity 6 seconds. 4 seconds is ridiculous and was overnerfed.
    - Reduce cost of shuffle and increase duration of snare immunity further
    - I like your suggestion about mobility/speed pots. Increase the duration and add a reagent that makes it possible for magicka setups to have a Immovable + Speed + Restore Magicka
    - Remove or reduce the majority of snares attached to skills and passives (Templar and DK´s passives) but keep powerful snares attached to ultimates (nova, sleet storm, etc).

    However, big groups do not need an easier time applying major expedition. Solo and small scale players get four seconds from skills, if you’re playing a stam sorc or warden. There’s absolutely zero reason big groups should have the advantage. Rapids should have one version that works only while mounted and the other should be 4 seconds to bring it in line with other forms of major expedition. ZOS made a big deal out of normalizing skills, yet this is a glaring inconsistency between large and small groups or solo players. People can argue that you need to recast it often anyway, but that’s beside the point. The potential for the advantage should not exist.

    Organized group play should be rewarded not the opposite, whether it´s small-scale or large-scale groups. Rapid maneuver is fine as it is and it´s the other changes to mobility that should be somewhat reverted, not RM being nerfed
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  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    Even with fm 8 sec and expedition always on we would still get caught and run over by
    -Gap close spam
    -Stun every 6 seconds to interrupt our movement
    -other fast pugs.

    What it did was enable us to digest being outnumbered and atleast have a way to alleviate the pressure by moving out of their los.

    Just one other thing to add

    Goblin racial or crown store poly useable in cyro

    That alone would solve speed/snares
    Founder: Animosity (Best Guild NA + EU)

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    Alpha Sorc:
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    The two time 3rd place Legend duelist (16k hp all divines btw)
  • del9
    del9
    ✭✭✭✭
    I can’t *** move, and players who have no mobility or speed skills/pots slotted can- thanks to rapids spam.

    Thanks for post, we’re all tired of beinf bogged down in the mire.
    PCNA

  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Joy_Division

    I do not often agree easily about game mechanics and adjusting them.. but this time i agree with all that you said, and the explanation was well done too for those who maybe are not so up to date on the current situation or if they play just 1 class/main and not see the big picture. Well done.

    /signed and agree fully. :)
    PC/EU - Sotha Sil - DC
    solo & small scale
    1000+ CP
    Playing all classes
  • ccmedaddy
    ccmedaddy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Solariken wrote: »
    Warden is fine with passive reduction (maybe buff slightly) and spammable free purge..
    I disagree. The cleanse is essentially useless for the purpose of snare removal unless you're really lucky or you somehow have the luxury of casting Blue Betty 5+ times in a row, which nobody does. And the snare reduction passive is barely noticeable because it's calculated multiplicatively.

    It would be quite hilarious if other classes that already have mobility/cleanse options get snare removal while the magicka warden, one of the least mobile specs in the game atm, doesn't.
    dunmer magblade - flawless conqueror
    argonian magden - flawless conqueror
    argonian magplar - flawless conqueror
    dunmer magdk - flawless conqueror
    altmer magsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc werewolf stamsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc stamplar - flawless conqueror
    redguard stamblade - flawless conqueror
    nord stamdk - lvl 5, lost forever in coldharbor
  • Dashmatt
    Dashmatt
    ✭✭✭
    Now that Major Expedition has been massively nerfed, I think it would be fair to have all sources also remove snares. I would also support removing some of the “free” snares on damage abilities.
  • Mintaka5
    Mintaka5
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Honestly snares in PvP are so bad, that when I get snared before an incoming zerg I just give up removing my hands from mouse and keyboard. It's pointless to fight at this point, because my character becomes completely immobilized. I literally spend all day watching my character fly through the air wrapped in stone, runes, and stunned, unable to cleanse, and watched her die in midair utterly frozen. Another problem is DOT damage now is so heavy that most snares prevent you from breaking free before all your health is lost (looking at all you Sloads NBs). the only viable solution I found was putting 5 pieces of heavy on my magsorc, so that I can utilize the Immovable skill. But then I sacrifice all my light armor passives. Sad.
    Edited by Mintaka5 on January 7, 2019 7:19PM
    #buffsorcs

    All you touch, and all you see is all your life will ever be.

    PC/NA - Altmer MagSorc DPS

    Blood for the Pact!
  • ATomiX96
    ATomiX96
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Snares are too accessible, every 2nd ability has some kind of "soft-cc", either directly bound to the ability or through passives its just a bad concept.
    Especially the potency and duration of some snares is questionable for how easy and cheap they are to apply compared to how expensive snare removal tools are.
    Edited by ATomiX96 on January 7, 2019 9:45PM
    PC-EU 1k+ CP
    Ghosts and Goblins
    Sexy Squad
    World 3rd Immortal Redeemer (Feb. 2018)
    vHoF 35/36 (208k Dragon Bones Patch)
    Stopped playing ESO as my main game since Dragon Bones, glad that other great games exist :>
    Keep spending money on crown crates if you think its gonna make the gameplay better :^)
  • ZOS_AntonioP
    Hello there,

    Recently we've had to remove a few posts for some unneeded flaming, which is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and on-topic to avoid action on one's own account.

    Thank you for understanding.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • Buzo
    Buzo
    ✭✭✭✭
    Elude should provide Major Expedition for its uptime, because movement speed is most crucial to melee gameplay (mostly stamina) and as I understand people have a problem with heavy armor stamina being mobile. That being said a reversion would be the healthier approach than trying to rework something they don‘t fundamentally understand correctly anyways but w/e ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buzo wrote: »
    Elude should provide Major Expedition for its uptime, because movement speed is most crucial to melee gameplay (mostly stamina) and as I understand people have a problem with heavy armor stamina being mobile. That being said a reversion would be the healthier approach than trying to rework something they don‘t fundamentally understand correctly anyways but w/e ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Or maybe the people running around doing Med Armor burst with Heavy Armor on should switch to Med Armor so they can use shuffle?

    But then so many stam toons wouldn't be able to run ridiculously high base resists and health recovery right? We all know how much those Heavy Stam players love high health recovery and hp for their troll king but also love them high resists.

    Can someone tell me what the downside to wearing Heavy Armor is in ESO? I'm struggling to remember.
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mintaka5 wrote: »
    Honestly snares in PvP are so bad, that when I get snared before an incoming zerg I just give up removing my hands from mouse and keyboard. It's pointless to fight at this point, because my character becomes completely immobilized. I literally spend all day watching my character fly through the air wrapped in stone, runes, and stunned, unable to cleanse, and watched her die in midair utterly frozen. Another problem is DOT damage now is so heavy that most snares prevent you from breaking free before all your health is lost (looking at all you Sloads NBs). the only viable solution I found was putting 5 pieces of heavy on my magsorc, so that I can utilize the Immovable skill. But then I sacrifice all my light armor passives. Sad.

    When have the forums become your own personal bashing ground of other players? Pretty hard to play when you can't do anything because the game is broken by players who exploit the game and then downplay others that play based on the mechanics spelled out by the game. How do you play it? I'm all for criticism, but shitting on me is not that!

    When ESO gives bad players a voice in their mechanics design what else are we supposed to do? You're playing the most mobile class in the game right now, and talking about wearing heavy armor for Immovable?

    If you really want me to give you some solid forum advice here is what I'd say -

    1. Are you a vampire? If the answer is Yes, change that.
    2. Do you have Boundless / Streak slotted? If your answer is no, change that.
    3. Your skills have a range of 18+ meters, what is causing you to be so far into the mix that you're getting snared with other groups of players, improve your situational awareness and make sure you're staying at range if you're in LA
    4. To stay at range, you have very easy tricks you can abuse - start with learning how to dodge roll cancel with a streak - this means you streak - and dodge roll - at the exact same time, but you never actually see the animation for the dodge roll - you'll see the green band around your feet after the streak if you executed this properly - then try something like this -

    YOU JUST GOT ROOTED -
    Dodge Roll Streak Cancel - Streak #2 - Boundless + Sprint

    - tell me if you haven't covered 70m in less than 2 seconds and completely dropped out of range of most snare spammers.

    Apologies for the bashing. Let me know if that advice helps you.
    Edited by MalagenR on January 7, 2019 10:37PM
  • Alpheu5
    Alpheu5
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    Mintaka5 wrote: »
    Honestly snares in PvP are so bad, that when I get snared before an incoming zerg I just give up removing my hands from mouse and keyboard. It's pointless to fight at this point, because my character becomes completely immobilized. I literally spend all day watching my character fly through the air wrapped in stone, runes, and stunned, unable to cleanse, and watched her die in midair utterly frozen. Another problem is DOT damage now is so heavy that most snares prevent you from breaking free before all your health is lost (looking at all you Sloads NBs). the only viable solution I found was putting 5 pieces of heavy on my magsorc, so that I can utilize the Immovable skill. But then I sacrifice all my light armor passives. Sad.

    When have the forums become your own personal bashing ground of other players? Pretty hard to play when you can't do anything because the game is broken by players who exploit the game and then downplay others that play based on the mechanics spelled out by the game. How do you play it? I'm all for criticism, but shitting on me is not that!

    When ESO gives bad players a voice in their mechanics design what else are we supposed to do? You're playing the most mobile class in the game right now, and talking about wearing heavy armor for Immovable?

    If you really want me to give you some solid forum advice here is what I'd say -

    1. Are you a vampire? If the answer is Yes, change that.
    2. Do you have Boundless / Streak slotted? If your answer is no, change that.
    3. Your skills have a range of 18+ meters, what is causing you to be so far into the mix that you're getting snared with other groups of players, improve your situational awareness and make sure you're staying at range if you're in LA
    4. To stay at range, you have very easy tricks you can abuse - start with learning how to dodge roll cancel with a streak - this means you streak - and dodge roll - at the exact same time, but you never actually see the animation for the dodge roll - you'll see the green band around your feet after the streak if you executed this properly - then try something like this -

    YOU JUST GOT ROOTED -
    Dodge Roll Streak Cancel - Streak #2 - Boundless + Sprint

    - tell me if you haven't covered 70m in less than 2 seconds and completely dropped out of range of most snare spammers.

    Apologies for the bashing. Let me know if that advice helps you.

    When you're being snared to the point of walking while Major Expedition is active, your advice becomes useless.
    Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer
    Grenin'Ja - Argonian Nightblade
    Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar
    Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight
    Dalek-Thux - Argonian Warden
    Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer
    Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
    Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • _Ahala_
    _Ahala_
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Snare reduction passives need to be made additive instead of multiplicative concerning how they actually reduce snares... 35% snare reduction should negate a 30% snare instead of reducing it to around 20%
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Id like it if channeled acceleration was not interuptable. ive used it to great success in bgs thanks to the amount of cover they have but in open world it is horrible as every other Zergling is spamming some interrupting spell along with a stun so they can run you over. Or if it lost its snare while casting so I do not go slow while casting... or if it kept the interruptible channel but the duration was increased to 12 seconds.
    Edited by Aliyavana on January 7, 2019 11:57PM
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • Glory
    Glory
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well written post Joy.

    I agree with pretty much everything, and definitely think that snare/snare removal(/immunity) is very much a "chicken before the egg" thing - they need to be balanced in unison to properly deliver good gameplay. Pre-movement nerf it was way in one direction (people basically flying across the map), now it is the opposite (snares are everywhere with very few coping mechanisms).

    Regarding your thoughts on rapid maneuvers:
    • Very few setups can viably use it in a "competitive" fashion: rapids spam in a larger group, and ganker come to mind.
    • Agree that it costs too much, this is a huge limiting factor
    • I think all players would appreciate it giving their group the shorter duration, non-breaking immunity as you suggested. Even with less strict conditions for breaking immunity, it used to be strong so I think a change like this would work. However, it would be an extremely powerful skill and would likely need to be tested to make sure it wasn't too strong.
    • Your change to limit the cast to 4-6 players is going to meet a lot of resistance. It would be interested to see the skill perform with an inverse cost, where it basically charges per player the immunity is granted to (and keep it group based). Almost like an inverse healing springs? This way you can keep a rapids spammer if you want (and it costs a lot to cast), but it's affordable for any player group size.
    • You mentioned the other morph is awful - magicka morph???

    Just some concepts.
    mDK will rise again.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant
  • Glory
    Glory
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The whole snare vs snare immunity system needs a rework. Snares should be used to counter hyper mobility, not to destroy those that don't have any, and I don't even wanna talk about the root spam.

    Generally agree, but at least roots have an immunity associated with them.

    That being said, I think if you sit through an entire root you should gain immunity :smile:
    mDK will rise again.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Glory wrote: »
    The whole snare vs snare immunity system needs a rework. Snares should be used to counter hyper mobility, not to destroy those that don't have any, and I don't even wanna talk about the root spam.

    Generally agree, but at least roots have an immunity associated with them.

    That being said, I think if you sit through an entire root you should gain immunity :smile:

    Sitting through or dodging/breaking(via shuffle,FM,wings) out of it should give you immunity to it, just like how you gain CC immunity if you break out of a CC. Though for how long I can't be too sure. I would say some immunity like 3-4 seconds would do the job.

    Though I don't expect any changes to snares/roots any time soon. Maybe in like 2020 at this speed.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 8, 2019 1:10AM
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MalagenR wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    Elude should provide Major Expedition for its uptime, because movement speed is most crucial to melee gameplay (mostly stamina) and as I understand people have a problem with heavy armor stamina being mobile. That being said a reversion would be the healthier approach than trying to rework something they don‘t fundamentally understand correctly anyways but w/e ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Or maybe the people running around doing Med Armor burst with Heavy Armor on should switch to Med Armor so they can use shuffle?

    But then so many stam toons wouldn't be able to run ridiculously high base resists and health recovery right? We all know how much those Heavy Stam players love high health recovery and hp for their troll king but also love them high resists.

    Can someone tell me what the downside to wearing Heavy Armor is in ESO? I'm struggling to remember.

    You don't seem to grasp the situation fully. Wearing heavy armor is not an option, Its a requirement. For classes without any form of ''get me out'' button. Even in heavy armor you can get 100-0'd very quickly by a stamblade or stamden. you don't even stand a chance in medium armor. And dying in two seconds is not fun, dodging won't save you from the broken stamblade combo that for some reason ignores dodge rolls, or the stamden wombo combo that completely ignores dodge roll , or a cheeky stamplar spamming potl+jabs on you with 3k bleeds ticking on you(to be fair stamplar is still somewhat forgiving because half of them can't think of hitting a javelin before spamming jabs)

    And CP PvP has soo much power creep you have to be a dummy dum to not wear full damage sets, which in this case happens to be fury or seventh legion. Cause you don't need any sustain. At all.

    Seriously, If I'm sustaining with 900 stam regen in fury-seventh-troll king, with zero cost reduction, why should I not be a tank with damage sets? There are a lot of negatives to heavy armor in non-Cp PvP. There are however, no reasons not to wear it in CP. Why should I wear the armor that gives me more sustain and mobility, in a campaign that has like 30 minute 1v1 tank battles going on?

    I am using both heavy and medium armor in non-CP, I still think medium armor is inferior in a lot of situations due to how bursty some specs are and the only counterplay is outhealing the burst, which is easier in heavy armor. Heavy armor has been getting nothing but nerfs ever since it was reworked, Its not getting us anywhere. The solution is to change medium armor. Give people a reason to be in medium armor. Don't design an entire armor weight based around one spec *cough stamblade *cough, and then you will see medium being considered meta.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 8, 2019 1:26AM
  • technohic
    technohic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    They even made light and medium closer to heavy in far as mitigation. Used to be medium 50% and light 25% of heavy and I think now light is 50% and medium is 75% or something like that?

    Longer root and stun immunity I think would be key and shuffle cannot be so expensive. I mean the reason I will use heavy is it takes forever to break out of some stuns. Particularly heavy animations ones of KDs comboed with talons. Really sufficates the active defenses of medium and light armor.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Qbiken wrote: »
    Light and Heavy armor currently have the same speed. That does not make any sense regarding verisimilitude or from a balance perspective if heavy is supposed to be designed to take/absorb hits whereas light is not

    If I can be as tanky in light/medium armor as in heavy (aka absorb the same amount of incoming damage), while still dealing the same and/or more damage, why shouldn´t I be able to move at the same pace in heavy as with the other armor types?

    Here´s what I would do:

    - Forward Momentum: Make snare immunity 6 seconds. 4 seconds is ridiculous and was overnerfed.
    - Reduce cost of shuffle and increase duration of snare immunity further
    - I like your suggestion about mobility/speed pots. Increase the duration and add a reagent that makes it possible for magicka setups to have a Immovable + Speed + Restore Magicka
    - Remove or reduce the majority of snares attached to skills and passives (Templar and DK´s passives) but keep powerful snares attached to ultimates (nova, sleet storm, etc).

    However, big groups do not need an easier time applying major expedition. Solo and small scale players get four seconds from skills, if you’re playing a stam sorc or warden. There’s absolutely zero reason big groups should have the advantage. Rapids should have one version that works only while mounted and the other should be 4 seconds to bring it in line with other forms of major expedition. ZOS made a big deal out of normalizing skills, yet this is a glaring inconsistency between large and small groups or solo players. People can argue that you need to recast it often anyway, but that’s beside the point. The potential for the advantage should not exist.

    Organized group play should be rewarded not the opposite, whether it´s small-scale or large-scale groups. Rapid maneuver is fine as it is and it´s the other changes to mobility that should be somewhat reverted, not RM being nerfed

    Don't give me that organized groups should be rewarded bs. They already have the distinct advantage of numbers, snares being in right now, mobility being at an all time low, and the ability to have many different roles. The thing is, a 4 man group probably can't afford to slot rapids and potentially get 30 seconds of ME, so why should a 20 man group get access to it? But thats all besides the point. ZOS made big stink about bringing all forms of major expedition in line, and rapids being available to big enough groups is a HUGE exception. Large groups have all the advantage already, why should they also have a skill thats an exception to the rule?
    Edited by Vapirko on January 8, 2019 4:13AM
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