Steel Tornado.

Ysbriel

Jakx wrote: »

Death Recap.

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I think I made my point. All the nerf threads and this plague in the game continues. I said it once before... tell me more about an AOE ability with a built in execute mechanic that isnt dodgeable. Do you know why magwarden rose up? It was in the response to the OP stam meta that we currently have and spin-to-win heroes. I'm completely on board with magden having access to too many easy things like major protection and awful slows but just remember it was born from necessity because of OP stam meta. I'm all for having a discussion about immobilize effects but everyone seems to conveniently forget the flip side of how strong stam specs are at the moment.

Just keep spinning.

Man this is how you kick the hornets nest xD, everyone who keeps defending the spin to win are also the one attacking the snare counterplay just because no spin no win, but now the snipe, poison arrow, snipe poison arrow, snipe poison arrow with some magnum shots once in a while is the new recap, so now the Dl wings are back in the game. sad part is that ZOS will eventually listen to those wjo yell nerf to the counterplay instead of those who are pointing out the obviously broken combat mechanics, mages wrath was supposedly “fixed” still see srcs blind spam it.

Ender1310

Zardayne wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

I honestly don't see spin to win in my recap that often and even when I do its almost never the killing blow. I see way more DBs and Lethal Arrow spam than anything else, even Incap shows up more often from my experience.

I'll second this

It depends what class and play style you are. If your ranged your not going to see it as your objective is to well..always stay ranged. If you are melee your going to see it more. It also depends what type of fights you get into. BG's your going to see it. No way around it. Just the comps of the groups.

I am saying. Lets think about it rationally. Its an AOE EXECUTE. That you don't have to aim! That has a ton of range! Is it almost too good? Why do you need an AOE EXECUTE? Where is the skill in dropping beetles (AOE) Dawnbreaker (AOE) and then an AOE execute that has mucho Range? And your counters are Heal through it block through it or just don't come close. You could say that's a counter for everything in the game. It does not need the execute. Just doesn't. Honestly as an AOE it should be pretty weak.

Ender1310

Liww wrote: »

like, when you clutch dodge some procset going off, at below 20%hp roll through them, line up that heavy hitter and then NOPE, half a mile radius undodgeable execute goes off, but the guy is bloody facing the other way. Casual executions. but hey, ulti damage proc sets help these ppl too, I dare say meta builds dont even have to aim, just rotate through defensive buffs, spamming aoe's.

This guy said it. This. So much this. This. This. I am going to say once again this. Skill < Derp derp execute. Whats the point of having good reflexes? Whats the point of reacting to something? That's what shields do. You react. Oh I reacted better I knew your dawn breaker was going off. Medium armor I knew your proc set was coming I dodged roll. Nope. Completely negated your reaction. And heaven forbid you try to you know kill the enemy.

Defilted

It is a undodgeable AOE. This is the reason it is so powerful in PVP. Now add on to the fact that sometimes there can be serious performance issues in big fights and you have a skill that really starts to become even more powerful. If the performance is bad I don't have to be concerned with targeting I just hit ST.

I think the best change to this skill is to remove the execute and just have it do a flat damage based on all the things it is based on now. ST even without the execute will still remain extremely powerful becasue of the fact it can be spammed and it is undodgeable AOE. It does not need the additional execute ability to be useful.

Needs to be in alignment with Pulsar or Pulsar needs to have a execute added to the skill to allow any mag class to have access to the same type of skill.

raistin87

Aztlan wrote: »

No.More.Nerfs.

Sure, because the game is perfectly balanced already and no further adjustments are needed. Got it.

Ender1310

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

LMAO at people defending steel tornado. 1) it does a *** ton of damage 2) it’s an AOE execute which benefits not only from the tooltip increase but also from the passive increase up to 120% more damage 3) is blockable, but good luck to you anyway if you try and stand still to block, not to mention the wasted stamina 4) is absolutely spammable, which makes blocking a no go because you will run out of stamina. Everyone always talks about such skills as if it’s the only type of incoming damage, same thing with sloads. 7th legion and bone pirate with no recovery glyphs and warrior mundus can spam ST, mostly because your target is likely to die before you run out of Stam. I built a spin to win warden for kicks because of sick of getting wrecked by them. The amount of damage you can do by hitting two buttons is moronic.

@Vapirko 1) wrong it's the 3dbos you got hit by previously or the Shalk dbos combo that does a Shotton of damage not spin2win. I'm in medium and I rarely get hit by spins for more then 4k.
2) by all means I'd rather have a proper exicute like other classes but since I'm a stamsorc I guess you'll have to live with it until we get a spammable and a exicute.
3)streak through them then dark deal I don't see the problem here...
4) in in medium with a 2.5k Stam rec and no its not spammable expecially in heavy you'll run dry faster then a A380 with a hole in its tank
5)thats a problem with warden being able to stack an aoe with a tool tip of a second ult with an ult not a Steel tornado issue. For stamsorc(no class spammable class exicute) stamden(no class exicute) stamplar (no class exicute) dk(no spammable no exicute)
For the people who dont want to run a 2h there is no other option for an exicute then steel tornado.and rendering slashes as a spammable for those without one.
Give those classes a option before complaining!

Dude I’ve played almost every class mag and Stam. The classes who need steel tornado is only Stam sorc and maybe Stam dk and those classes suffers for many other reasons. DBoS is an ultimate and ultimate dumps are a whole other issue. Shalks is a class skill and whatever it’s easy to move out of the way. Spin to win is just too simple for what it does and it cancels so *** well. Make it dodgeable again and I’m good. But as it is now you need to block and that means you’re pretty much stationary in an AOE damage meta. No good. I don’t give a crap about the hit from one spin, but 4K spammed 3-5 times and now you’re talking 12-20k damage. That’s a lot and it’s too easy to use in this snare AOE damage meta. Just to say I’ve used to spin to win but normally I don’t and I say this from personal experience, it’s just incredibly easy and effective.

Tbf use anything 5 times and you do 20k damage including light attacks if built correctly.
Block canceling isn't adviced drains stamina very fast if done on a regular basis.
Undodgable is bs that I agree with.

This quote. Right above me. Anything. Including light attacks. Which you have to target. That's the problem. You don't have to target and it's an AOE. It's too easy to use. Think about what you just said. To execute a light attack you have to place your reticle on the player and keep the player in front of you. Glad you agree on the undodgable part.

Toc de Malsvi

Defilted wrote: »

It is a undodgeable AOE. This is the reason it is so powerful in PVP. Now add on to the fact that sometimes there can be serious performance issues in big fights and you have a skill that really starts to become even more powerful. If the performance is bad I don't have to be concerned with targeting I just hit ST.

I think the best change to this skill is to remove the execute and just have it do a flat damage based on all the things it is based on now. ST even without the execute will still remain extremely powerful becasue of the fact it can be spammed and it is undodgeable AOE. It does not need the additional execute ability to be useful.

Needs to be in alignment with Pulsar or Pulsar needs to have a execute added to the skill to allow any mag class to have access to the same type of skill.

Yup.

Players really underestimate the power of undodgeable AOE execute with 360 degree cone in PVP. It performs very well in any lag and makes single target abilities laughable.

Add to it snare stack meta and you really don't ever need to aim. Just position yourself in the general area of your opponents and ult/spin.

1 player with ST in group PVP is obnoxious but manageable. 2 or more and you better have a pocket healer or play a tank.

Never mind the fact that DW has access to a really cheap bleed and can proc a powerful bleed. Its utterly skilless gameplay.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I don't deny the efficiency of steel tornado on a group v group fight, however if you're dying to ST spam only, then you have no right to insult the players who don't. And if you're dying to ST spam on a 1v1 you shouldn't even have opinions about it.

Idk, my stam sorc can get kills by : rending slash, LA, puncture, bash, LA, reverb, LA, spin, LA, spin, LA, spin, LA, spin, LA, spin, LA, spin, LA, spin........ LA, DB, LA, Spin........

EDIT : this goes for non- potato targets as well.

I tend to alternate reverb LA & Pierce Armor La myself and wait for a Aquity proc
With double dots and carve all critting it hits like a train.

IlCanis_LupuslI

I had someone chasing me on a spin2win warden yesterday... I blocked his dawny kites him to a quiet space away from his group(pvp rule nr. 1 always choose the battleground) transformed and banged him out in 2 seconds I don't know what you guys problem with spin2win is. Just kill him before he gets in a lucky burst

Brrrofski

The problem with it is when you have shalks, dawnbreaker, Spin to win trains. A bunch of thumbless, brainless players hitting 3 buttons and winning.

If you're ok with the most dumbed down combat you can get, cool. I'm not though.

It's an aoe with decent range that has no need to aim. Close your eyes an spin.
It is an execute.
It has a further execute component
It can't be dodged.

It's overtuned and far too easy to be successful with when you have zero skill. PvP is just dawnbreaker and spin to win groups on Xbox eu at the moment.

I have a stamden with a super powerful build for this type of stuff. I got bored in about 5 minutes. I can dust it off to combat the BS meta in PvP if I want to, but I'd be bored again in 5 minutes.

Svidrir

moltzdc wrote: »

Just make it dodgeable.

No, if you get dodgable, only the Stamina will benefit from the nerve and it is very useful like that against the clone army of Nigth blade stam, for example.

Delete the execution, why not, but it will come time to add it on another skill of the line and that probably nef the PvE I guess

IlCanis_LupuslI

I play a stamsorc snb /2h in heavy, 25k hp, 23k resistances. Yeah I'm squishy af. But I can't remember the last time dying to spin 2 win.
How I do it you ask?
a) situational awareness if I see a 6 man group buffing up I can usually predict where they are going and avoid standing there, and if I'm unfortunate to stand there I
b) Block'n'Vigor go forward not backwards reduce your time in the aoe dump
c) if you have a aoe cc(Streak, mass hysteria, etc use it, taking 3 dbos is still better then 6 expecially if stamden are involved
Your welcome.
P. S. The main point is to overcome your instinkt to dodge roll block instead and start vigor shortly before the dawny hits you if possible not after if Stam wardens are involved.

TheBonesXXX

Who would have thought that undodgable skills would be a problem.

It's design is the problem, there should be zero undodgable skills and it shouldn't be AoE.

IlCanis_LupuslI

You have to adapt. As I said I can't remember the last time dying to spin2win. As soon as I got into the routine of immideatly blocking(1 month after they made it undodgable) when a ult dump was incoming I stopped dying to it. Or even better streaking through them but granted not everyone has that tool available and if the, are smart they have cc immunity pots on, but your behind them anyway and out of danger(they never turn around.)

Cursa

The problem is making a decision on dealing with enemies. Let’s say you want to build your char to try and deal with as many classes as you can.

You can use reverse slice, you’ll have a solid execute against most heavy users/magicka classes and do well against them. But if your fighting a group of enemies, and you have some medium Armor stamblade or similar, sniping you or jumping in to incap, and you manage to combo/burst him down to execute range. And then reverse/miss,reverse/miss,reverse/miss, as they dodge roll three times and are now healed by others or a sufficient distance from you thanks to bow expedition bonus. The whole time your wasting is time not removing an opponent from play or healing.
Or, you can nerf your damage against everyone else (not an easy choice) but when this ganker/sniper joins the fight against you, you punish them for having bad healing and resistances/game knowledge by bursting them down and steel tornado to clip them whilst they roll repeatedly, threat removed from play, big source of major defile gone.
A decent player will be setup with shadow image to avoid you anyway, and will probably have troll king on and shuffle up.
A player who is wearing 3 damage sets looking for easy kills will likely get an easy death.

SodanTok

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

I play a stamsorc snb /2h in heavy, 25k hp, 23k resistances. Yeah I'm squishy af. But I can't remember the last time dying to spin 2 win.
How I do it you ask?
a) situational awareness if I see a 6 man group buffing up I can usually predict where they are going and avoid standing there, and if I'm unfortunate to stand there I
b) Block'n'Vigor go forward not backwards reduce your time in the aoe dump
c) if you have a aoe cc(Streak, mass hysteria, etc use it, taking 3 dbos is still better then 6 expecially if stamden are involved
Your welcome.
P. S. The main point is to overcome your instinkt to dodge roll block instead and start vigor shortly before the dawny hits you if possible not after if Stam wardens are involved.

First time seeing someone say 'squishy' next to 'snb heavy stamsorc'. You are at peak tankiness. There is no way up but building tank and majority of people are below you in tankiness. I am not even attacking or disagreeing with your point, but there is some line where saying "i dont die to something" stops meaning anything and I think you went over it

Toc de Malsvi

SodanTok wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

I play a stamsorc snb /2h in heavy, 25k hp, 23k resistances. Yeah I'm squishy af. But I can't remember the last time dying to spin 2 win.
How I do it you ask?
a) situational awareness if I see a 6 man group buffing up I can usually predict where they are going and avoid standing there, and if I'm unfortunate to stand there I
b) Block'n'Vigor go forward not backwards reduce your time in the aoe dump
c) if you have a aoe cc(Streak, mass hysteria, etc use it, taking 3 dbos is still better then 6 expecially if stamden are involved
Your welcome.
P. S. The main point is to overcome your instinkt to dodge roll block instead and start vigor shortly before the dawny hits you if possible not after if Stam wardens are involved.

First time seeing someone say 'squishy' next to 'snb heavy stamsorc'. You are at peak tankiness. There is no way up but building tank and majority of people are below you in tankiness. I am not even attacking or disagreeing with your point, but there is some line where saying "i dont die to something" stops meaning anything and I think you went over it

Well someone clearly doesn't understand the advantages of their particular setup when it comes to just "block and start vigor".

Seraphayel

Well, even Rich is playing a bleed/spin 2 win build, don't expect nerfs or adjustments anytime soon.

Iskiab

Well, I tried spin to win (steel tornado) and thought it was weak. The damage seemed low, the NB execute was a lot better. This was under 50 BGs.

Then I played against a pvp under 50 premade that was spamming snares, immobilizations, tons of stuns.

The only thing that’s good about spin to win is the current cc meta. All the cc makes targeting difficult so an aoe execute becomes effective, especially with lots of pets obscuring your target. On it’s own it’s not very good and you have zero chance of getting someone to execute range spamming it.

If you’re just spamming Steel tornado you’re kill stealing is what I’m thinking. I’ll see what it’s like at 50 but have already switched to 2 hander. I miss rending and might switch back, IDK yet.

Iskiab

Cursa wrote: »

But if your fighting a group of enemies, and you have some medium Armor stamblade or similar, sniping you or jumping in to incap, and you manage to combo/burst him down to execute range. And then reverse/miss,reverse/miss,reverse/miss, as they dodge roll three times and are now healed by others or a sufficient distance from you thanks to bow expedition bonus. The whole time your wasting is time not removing an opponent from play or healing.
Or, you can nerf your damage against everyone else (not an easy choice) but when this ganker/sniper joins the fight against you, you punish them for having bad healing and resistances/game knowledge by bursting them down and steel tornado to clip them whilst they roll repeatedly, threat removed from play, big source of major defile gone
.

I see, good point. Only thing I’d say is save your stun for as soon as they enter execute range.

Chilly-McFreeze

Svidrir wrote: »

moltzdc wrote: »

Just make it dodgeable.

No, if you get dodgable, only the Stamina will benefit from the nerve and it is very useful like that against the clone army of Nigth blade stam, for example.

Delete the execution, why not, but it will come time to add it on another skill of the line and that probably nef the PvE I guess

I don't think taking away the execute is an good idea. It only forces many classes into 2h even more. I suggest to reduce the radius or make it a cone on Tornado but leave the 360 degrees on the other morph untouched.

Czirne

What really pisses me off is when I solo and meet a few people, all they do is spam steel tornado and bugs. Just reduce damage of it when you hit less that 4 people. 4+ people = 100% damage. When you hit 3 people - 75% damage, 2 people 50% and 1 person 25%. This change would not affect pve nor large scale pvp, and it would make small scale and solo much more enjoyable.

FrankonPC

I just think it's a lazy way to play tbh. DB/Spin to win is really easy. Eliminating the execute that it has makes it fine imo.

Haashhtaag

If I could run reverse slice more I would because I find it hits harder but what’s the point with nightblades cloaking and dodge rolling infinitely

technohic

Royaji wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

I'm sorry that your in-built instinct "low health -> I should dodge to became invincible for the next 2 seconds" has a counter.

Btw, Steel Tornado has base cost of 3780. Builds that are able to spam it will hit like wet noodles and the ones that will hurt can do 3-5 tornados in a row before they are completely out.

Yes but it still needs a minor cost increase, it is far too efficient in single target application. As it stands, most players don't even slot Bloodthirst/Rapid and rarely have to use any single-target spammable because they can just DBoS+Spin all the things. Lame potato playstyle that should be more expensive to utilize IMO.

It's effective against one specific type of opponent - rolly-polly-into-cloak stamblade. It's just a coincedance they alos happen to be the biggest whiners and have to nerf every undodgeable skill that counters them.

I find it most effective on them, and then players standing tight who try to crawl behind each other when in execution range due to this games crappy targeting

TheBonesXXX

Undodgable skills are a bad idea, in any game.

Chilly-McFreeze

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Undodgable skills are a bad idea, in any game.

1 move to counter everything is a bad idea as well.

Haashhtaag

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Undodgable skills are a bad idea, in any game.

Imagine the definition of area of effect

BaylorCorvette

Deleting the execution is not the answer. It would then further force certain classes into having to use 2H. I play a StamSorc and I absolutely hate Dizzying Swing, I haven't run 2H in a long time. Now if ZoS made wrecking blow an instant cast ability the 2H line would be much more appealing. Either that or give StamSorc and StamDK some love in their tool kit in terms of damage abilities.

Haashhtaag

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Deleting the execution is not the answer. It would then further force certain classes into having to use 2H. I play a StamSorc and I absolutely hate Dizzying Swing, I haven't run 2H in a long time. Now if ZoS made wrecking blow an instant cast ability the 2H line would be much more appealing. Either that or give StamSorc and StamDK some love in their tool kit in terms of damage abilities.

stamwhip?