How much DPS do you need to pull in order to be a REAL DPS?

Thrain

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

It should also be noted that there isn't a thing called "real DPS".

You can be a good DD, bad DD, average DD. You can't have fake DPS, therefore there is no real DPS.

Then whats about a healer?
Is it a fake healer or is he just bad?
Same for tanks
Ive met ppl who got less dps then the tank in vet dungeons so for what should i carry those ppl?
In this game especially with all the guides and youtube channels like alcast it is easy af to pull a decent dps

I pull with my magblade around 60k in dungeons and trials im not saying everyone need to have the same amount of dps but at least 20-30k+ for vet dungeons so it wont take forever
If a dd got only 15k dps but a good sustain i wont say anything but if a dd got like 3k dps and keeps dying then hes not rdy for this dungeon so ill vote kick him because then he doesnt fit his role as dd (fake dd)

LordGavus

Fake is if you have no intention of doing, or can't do your role. E.g. a healer with no heals or a tank with no taunt.

If a healer has a heal, a tank has a taunt or a dps does 3k, they are not fake, just bad.

AbysmalGhul

A real dps can maintain keeping damage up while avoiding mechanics.

Thrain

LordGavus wrote: »

Fake is if you have no intention of or can't do your role. A healer with no heals or s tank with no taunt.

If a healer has a heal, a tank has a taunt or a dps does 3k, they are not fake, just bad.

Well in my opinion fake ppl are player who dont fit their role
Like if the tank cant hold the aggro or keeps dying i call him fake tank
If the healer cant heal i call him fake healer
If a dd cant pull a decent dps i call him fake dd
This only counts vet dungeons cuz i cant judge ppl who doing normal dungeons maybe the first time or with a new char
For vet dungeons 15k min with sustain otherwhise i will vote kick^^

humpalicous

Davor wrote: »

Wow. I must really suck. Some times I might get 4000, but most times I get 2000. Oh well, still having fun. Just like in Morrowind I just have to skip the hard stuff until I am ready.

Just light attacking every second will give you at least 5k with a staff, 2k with a dagger. So if you use one ability and one light attack you have just more than doubled your damage output

LordGavus

Thrain wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Fake is if you have no intention of or can't do your role. A healer with no heals or s tank with no taunt.

If a healer has a heal, a tank has a taunt or a dps does 3k, they are not fake, just bad.

Well in my opinion fake ppl are player who dont fit their role
Like if the tank cant hold the aggro or keeps dying i call him fake tank
If the healer cant heal i call him fake healer
If a dd cant pull a decent dps i call him fake dd
This only counts vet dungeons cuz i cant judge ppl who doing normal dungeons maybe the first time or with a new char
For vet dungeons 15k min with sustain otherwhise i will vote kick^^

The issue that keeps popping up is the difference between fake and bad.
If someone is doing the core function of their role but just suck at it, I call that bad not fake.
If a dps is doing 5k then they're not technically fake as they are dpsing, they just bad. But this is just arguing over definitions now.

I agree that none of this counts in normal dungeons. Gotta learn somewhere.

supaskrub

I see someone mentioned (can’t be arsed to quote it) further up the thread that 12k is sufficient for Craglorn ‘basic’ Vet trials. That would be absolutely painful on Varlariel and probably only do-able by a very experienced group that have ran content together many, many times and are just gimping themselves for ‘the challenge’ and even then I’m still doubting that it can actually be done and after that you’ve still got the reflections to look forward to on the Mage which would be equally as unpleasant with ultra low dps.

An average group comprising of 12k dps would fold for sure, it would still be a pain with 20k dps, 25k begins to put your group in the comfort zone.

While ‘mathematically’ doable it does not mean it’s possible without being in a sterile environment, every single team member being on-point and having all the planets align.

thorwyn

Thrain

LordGavus wrote: »

Thrain wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Fake is if you have no intention of or can't do your role. A healer with no heals or s tank with no taunt.

If a healer has a heal, a tank has a taunt or a dps does 3k, they are not fake, just bad.

Well in my opinion fake ppl are player who dont fit their role
Like if the tank cant hold the aggro or keeps dying i call him fake tank
If the healer cant heal i call him fake healer
If a dd cant pull a decent dps i call him fake dd
This only counts vet dungeons cuz i cant judge ppl who doing normal dungeons maybe the first time or with a new char
For vet dungeons 15k min with sustain otherwhise i will vote kick^^

The issue that keeps popping up is the difference between fake and bad.
If someone is doing the core function of their role but just suck at it, I call that bad not fake.
If a dps is doing 5k then they're not technically fake as they are dpsing, they just bad. But this is just arguing over definitions now.

I agree that none of this counts in normal dungeons. Gotta learn somewhere.

Well thats true
Most of the time the ppl i call fake dd are not even trying
Like bow or light attack spamming

Elwendryll

I do 34k on my main character. If my brother lets me sit in front of his desk and try with his character, I do like 16k.

Just to say that even for me, with a decent knowledge of how to deal damages, I struggle on a class I don't know, with low CP, and sub-optimal stuff. And when I say sub-optimal... He has golden infused Ravager jewelries...

It takes time to get there. And you can always improve. Now, even without paying attention I can do 30k without thinking about it. But it's hard to get there. That's not easy, that's practice.

Skeough11

For a real dps 40k minimum on 6 mill self buffed

SugaComa

I can only pull around 22 to 25 k.dps on my magplar and that's always been enough for me ...

Problem tends to be that the game is advertised at "play it yourway" but the reality is to get those big numbers you can't "play it yourway" you have to "play the meta"

Right race, right skills, right gear, right passives, perfect rotation.

Big numbers aren't needed to do all content ... Remember ... A dead DD does no DPS , therefore a DD who can hit reasonable numbers follow the mechanics and stay alive is far better than a 60k dummy parser who is dead half the time

pod88kk

In Trials 30k will get you through all the content but more is better

Hostee

25k is really not that hard to achieve. I just leveled a magplar and never having played a Templar of any variation; I was able to pull 41k on a 3 mil after my 2nd or 3rd attempt.

kathandira

LightMaster7 wrote: »

Anyone measuring their dps by how they perform on a dummy is an idiot.

You just put on some single target enhanced dps sets and you can fanagle that *** all day.

Doesn't tell you how good that person is in a real dungeon, his actual skills or what that person is really capable of.

My only argument to that is that in a good amount of Normal Trials or Dungeons, you can basically group up and burn down a boss. There are plenty of times where you really can just out heal or shield through damage and just stand still and keep up your rotation.

For example, on the first boss of NAA, I generally don't bother running to the protective runes. I just stay on the boss, shield up, self heal, and burn through it.

I know that doesn't apply to all things, but there is enough of that where you can be sorta mindless about the fight. Obviously though, Vet is a completely different story.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

ryanfan wrote: »

So as many people have discussed, when queuing for vet dungeons, DLC dungeons and trials, having enough DPS can certainly help the group progress the content and make it a more enjoyable experience. No one likes to initiate a kick nor being kicked.

Many end game trial groups require combat metrics DPS parse before inviting you to the group so they know you are qualified.
Many YouTubers have created videos sharing their builds and DPS rotations to help people improve their skills and DPS.

But is hitting over 60k single target on parse really necessary for casual players who just want to try and complete the vet content?

For players who don't have end game trial gear, perfect rotation, nor BIS meta build, how much DPS does one need in order to be a REAL DPS for vet content (no hm), making the game enjoyable for oneself and as well as its teammates?

From what I've gathered:

Vet Dungeons: 15k+
Vet DLC Dungeons: 20k+
Vet Trials: 30k+

These aren't set in stone though.

To clear, it's lower than that.

Base Game Vet dungeons run under 10k for their DPS checks. (I forget, it's only like 6 or 7k for the hard checks.)

Most Vet DLC can be cleared at 15k

Vet base game trials check at around 12k.

Vet DLC trials check at around 20k (maybe 25k)

The problem is, most players want to bypass mechanics, or get out of specific phases quickly, which calls for higher DPS.

The more recent the content is, the higher the checks will be, except, a lot of fights don't depend on DPS checks at all. You can clear Thurvokun with three tanks if you wanted to, and you'd have a significantly easier time than if you were dealing with two 45k DPS who didn't understand the fight and wouldn't follow direction.

Understanding mechanics is way more important than raw DPS. This is also one place where you'll see a difference between endgame raid groups. Groups that prioritize players who can learn systems, and improve will do far better, long term, than ones that focus on just parse numbers. (And, before someone comes scampering in to defend their guild, yes, both of these kinds of groups do exist.)

There is no way you're clearing the twins in vMoL with 20k. You'll get overwhelmed by adds.
There is no way you're clearing the last boss in vHoF with 20k. You'll die in execute.

I've had groups clear vMoL with less than 20k DPS average. Twins are more about tank competency than it is about DPS.

I would like evidence for that claim, if you did do it or not, and to see how exactly it was done, because if you got it after the 150 wipe, than that's not really better than just not doing it at all, it's a waste of time, and you would just be better off in a group with more dps.

This is a typical response i see, all claim that they have done this and that with pretty low to ludicrously low dps, and use it as an argument that dps is not important, but where is the evidence? So we may judge? Because i too did some groups with low dps back when i was not as good, but it definitely was not very fun.

But i'm just elitist am i right?

20k sounds a bit low, but I think it would be doable. We were the 4th or 5th VMOL HM clear on PC/NA, we werent doing much more than 25k or so on average at the time. I think we did 5 backrooms plus lunar in our first HM clear. Our first vet clear (non HM) was like 2 patches before that, and we were definitively pulling less. Of course that was a different time, but the mechanics really havent changed.

It's a bit of a catch 22 if done recently. People that can follow mechanics that well are pulling way more DPS than they were more than 2 years ago. In other words, I think 20k average by today's standards is unlikely, but certainly not impossible.

A lot of this content was cleared with dps totals much lower than we have now. So no, you do not need to have the totals we can pull now to do that old content. It is nice but it is not mandatory.

But the people hitting those numbers back then are the same very coordinated and knowledgeable people that are hitting the big totals now. A group would have to very dedicated, willing to learn, etc to clear with those lower numbers. And if they were all those things they probably wouldn't have such low dps compared to what is available now.

It is what it is.

Pretty much what I was getting at. Not impossible, but not likely by today's standards.

CGPsaint

Valrien wrote: »

Bare minimum 30k, just because of how easy it is to get 30k DPS.

Given that I can hit 30K+ on my PetSorc with just the following, I couldn't agree more.

Liquid Lightning -> LA -> Blockade -> Bar Swap

Volatile Familiar -> Daedric Prey -> HA -> HA -> Bar Swap

* Use Ultimate when available.

* Replace HA with Mage's Wrath during execute phase.

Colecovision

My tanky solo stamblade does 22k dps on a dummy. I went to do the pledge at vet crypt 1 solo a couple nights ago, when it was the pledge. I accidentally got the no death speed run achievement. So if I had been 4 people and the tank and healer could each pull 3k dps and each dps each did 8k, then Zos designed an achievement for that group on one of its easiest vet dungeons.

30k was very high before clockwork city. Unless a group is specifically going for a competitive time clear, anyone who NEEDS more than 30k for anything before cwc is just being a carebear. Or maybe they want to be a carried bear, idk.

carlos424

20k DPS in the actual fight is very different from the same person trying it on a dummy. There is plenty of down time when you have to switch targets to focus adds or when the bosses jump and you have to run to the other side. I don't know if 20k average DPS in the actual fight will be sufficient (only done it as tank, and wasn't paying attention to the DPS), but there is no way you'll get it if that's all you can do on a dummy. To qualify for vMoL you should do at least 30k on a dummy.

Also, tank coordination flies out of the window when most of the raid is pinned down by 8 white adds (which you will have, because 20k DPS/DD is not enough to kill a wave of 2x4 or execute boss before there is a 2nd set).[/quote]

Hopefully your tank, healers and other players will be buffing you and debuffing the enemies, so technically your dps shouldnt go down.

carlos424

Valrien wrote: »

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Bare minimum 30k, just because of how easy it is to get 30k DPS.

If it was that easy, this thread wouldn't exist.

Neither would all the other DPS threads.

No, it's pretty easy. Threads like these spawn because there are people not even willing to do the bare minimum

That's elitism.

There are plenty of people willing to do the work, but it takes time and patience to get to that point.

Just because there are some bad and willfully ignorant DPS out there doesn't mean they all are.

Bro 30k can be achieved just with the right gear + dots + light attacks.

The bare minimum is light attack spam but smarter

In today’s ESO 30K dps is really not that difficult (5/5/2 gear setup), if you are mid-high CP with decent sets (just overland or crafted). Do a bit of research on your character, CP setup, best skills to use, maybe even look into a rotation. You will be amazed at how much a few tweeks can help.

Giraffon

I wonder what people think of my Sorc when I run him in dungeons. Single target he's about 15K, but he can spike up to 95K burning groups of trash mobs (which is the core function of the build). I'll get you to that boss in a hurry. I'm durable when I get there, but single target DPS is just meh.

Ciovala

CGPsaint wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Bare minimum 30k, just because of how easy it is to get 30k DPS.

Given that I can hit 30K+ on my PetSorc with just the following, I couldn't agree more.

Liquid Lightning -> LA -> Blockade -> Bar Swap

Volatile Familiar -> Daedric Prey -> HA -> HA -> Bar Swap

* Use Ultimate when available.

* Replace HA with Mage's Wrath during execute phase.

I can only get like 28K max doing that, personally. Purple Necropotence and Julianos aside from weapon. Even vma back bar! Have done vma on multiple characters but usually heal in trials, so maybe I suck at clicking or something.

ZeroXFF

carlos424 wrote: »

Hopefully your tank, healers and other players will be buffing you and debuffing the enemies, so technically your dps shouldnt go down.

So you expect tanks running alkosh, crusher enchant and using engulfing flames, and healers that not only heal you but also wear olorime/SPC+worm cult and give good ele drain and combat prayer uptime to run vet DLC trials with 8 DDs that pull 20k each on a dummy?

I've got bad news for you. Tanks and healers that put that much thought into their build and perform that well will easily find a better group. If you're talking about a 20k/DD group, pick the tanks and healers accordingly.

And if the DDs put half as much thought into their builds and rotations as the tanks and healers in this hypothetical group, they would be doing 35k DPS each, not 20k.

Valrien

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Bare minimum 30k, just because of how easy it is to get 30k DPS.

30k is not that easy, and most are way under that. Getting the right gear is not that easy, and a lot of people do not know how to rotate. That doesn't mean they are faking.

Getting the right gear is pretty easy. Cloudrest is mindless so you can get relequen with almost no effort, vMA is balanced for 300~ CP so that's incredibly easy these days to get a bow...and for your 2nd set, you can just use something like Veiled Heritance, Ravager, or Hunding's if you don't have Yokeda. Monster sets should go without saying how easy they are to get.

For magicka it's basically the same. Srioria, vMA Inferno, 3rd set, Monster set

And honestly you don't even need the vMA weapons. They sure do help, but if you really can't do vMA then you can still attain 30k

Stop being apologetic to laziness and willful ignorance. There are plenty of resources people can take advantage of. If you "don't know" at that point, then that is entirely on you

Odovacar

30-35K+ for good DPS is mostly acceptable for Vtrials unless the group has leaderboard goals for numbero uno 45-50K on up is what I've heard you needed to prove for consoles anyway. With the lack of combat metrics though most post cheesed dps dummy screen shots get an invite and then come in not really knowing mechanics too well have to be rezed 321324 times & run out of resources because they're not fully ready for the veteran trial boss fights that will punch you in the mouth unapologetically if your not obeying key mechanics, regardless of your cool DPS you showed upon initiation. This is how we learn though right?

I know because that was me once upon a time thinking just because I had acceptable DPS I was in like Flynn, However, with hard work/dedication to the group and a good T-leader I was able to learn 'gud' and be an actual contributor to my team (I'm by no means some master mind or leader material, yet LOL). Things take time and nobody's perfect at first IMO. We live and succeed best by who we are lucky enough to be exposed to so we can learn right the first time around. Effort always pays off no matter how many times it takes!

_Ahala_

All of it

randomkeyhits

Every player has their own take based on how they see content should be completed. Fine.

What I really, really, really want is for the developers to tell us at what level of dps they designed the content for.

We can argue all day but really there is only one definitive source, its a shame they don't speak up and let us know.

Tannus15

LightMaster7 wrote: »

Anyone measuring their dps by how they perform on a dummy is an idiot.

You just put on some single target enhanced dps sets and you can fanagle that *** all day.

Doesn't tell you how good that person is in a real dungeon, his actual skills or what that person is really capable of.

You measure DPS via dummy, but anyone who knows what they are looking at can spot dummy cheese. 90% of the difficult content comes down to single target damage on the boss.

Every group I've run with wants to know what you can get on a skelly so they know the best case scenario, and then they want to know what % of the group dps you do via combat metrics.

Every group I've run with will have the death count addon to see who died and how often. It's super obvious who is capable and who isn't after a single run of any vet trial.

carlos424

LightMaster7 wrote: »

Anyone measuring their dps by how they perform on a dummy is an idiot.

You just put on some single target enhanced dps sets and you can fanagle that *** all day.

Doesn't tell you how good that person is in a real dungeon, his actual skills or what that person is really capable of.

I wouldn't say an idiot, but you have to start somewhere with measuring how well you can work a rotation, sustain, etc. If you can't do it on a target dummy, then you definitely can't do it in-game. Also, and this is on xbox, I usually take videos of the parse and go to inventory to show gear, CP, mundus, etc.

carlos424

Facefister wrote: »

In a group with buffs and debuffs:

35k~40k on very static fights with minimum movements
20k~35k on dynamic fights

Dummy parses have no value. The dummy is only there for you to practice a somewhat basic rotation.

If all you have is a "somewhat basic rotation" then you are not going to be in the 35-40k range on anything. Dummy parses have some value. They show what you can do in a controlled environment. If you can't hit 35-40k on a dummy you won't be able to do it in a real fight. Sure people can cheese dummy parses, and that is evident as soon as you run with them one time. But if you're true to yourself and your team, you put on the gear you run with and use the dummy to get your rotation down to muscle memory.