[TWS] Remove the class corset – „One Tamriel 2.0; Uncage the classes!“

Taonnor

First I will apologize for my broken English. I’m not a native English people. If you do not understand some sentence, try to look into the German thread and translate it or ask me directly!

Here is the German counterpart. -> Klassenkorsett entfernen – „One Tamriel 2.0; Befreit die Klassen!“
Back to the Main Thread -> [TWS] What should i change in ESO – „The sweeping statement“

I'm watching interesting discussions about balancing in the current PTS 4.2 cycle. That's where the idea came from. What if there were no more classes, just a pool of "Class-Skilltrees" from which you could choose 3? A leading edge of ESO is, everyone can play as he wants! Or? Why do we have to stick to the dusty "class system"? Instead of inventing new classes all you have to do is add " Class-Skilltrees ". As I understand it, this idea is much closer to the TES games than the current ESO class system. This idea does not consider any development resources. The Idea is pure fantasy. But I think the thoughts are very sexy to spin out!

Every Character can choose 3 „Class-Skilltrees“ he wants from a Pool of „Class-Skilltrees”

Spoiler

Initially I would include all existing „Class-Skilltrees” into the pool. Then to determine your character, you can choose from this pool 3 „Class-Skilltrees” of your choice. This defines your new "class". Thus, 455 different combination options are available according to the current state. 455 different classes inclusive class names. Let that melt on your tongue.

You can choose 3 „Class-Skilltrees” from one class (for example DK) or 3 from different classes (NB, Sorc, DK). In addition, there is also a new „Class-Skilltrees respec”, where you can select a new combination and get the new assigned class name. When creating a character you have to choose between the available „Class-Skilltrees” instead of the class with 3 fixed „Class-Skilltrees”.

Slotted „Class-Skilltrees” provides passive bonuses

Additionally to the combination possibilities, the „Class-Skilltrees” provide passive bonuses that fit their context.

• NB Class-Skilltree-> 5% Single-Target DMG
• SC Class-Skilltree -> 5% AoE-Target DMG
• TP Class-Skilltree -> 5% Healing-Output
• DK Class-Skilltree -> 5% Max Health + 2500 Armor
• WD Class-Skilltree -> 5% Max Stamina, 5% Max Magicka

Examples of combinations

• NB + SC + DK -> 5% Single, 5% AoE, 5% Healing
• TP + TP + WD -> 10% Healing, 5% Max Stam, 5% Max Magicka

Class names variating

Here we can creative:

• Example 1: NB + SC + DK -> Dragon-Mage
• Example 2: TP + TP + WD -> Ice-Templer
• Example 3: DK + DK + DK -> Dragonknight

Additional ideas for further „Class-Skilltrees”

The system would clear the way for single „Class-Skilltrees”. The combination options add dozens more class combinations.

• Example 1: „Ice-Magic“ -> Single „Class-Skilltree”, provides 500 Crit-Resi + 2500 Armor/Spell Armor (+5 Skills + Ulti + 4 Passiva)
• Example 2: „Necromancy“ -> Single „Class-Skilltree”, provides 2500 Spell Penetration (+5 Skills + Ulti + 4 Passiva)
• Example 3: „Barbarism“ -> Single „Class-Skilltree”, provides 2500 Armor Penetration (+5 Skills + Ulti + 4 Passiva)

What do you say to that? Would you like the total freedoms?

karekiz

Wouldn't that mean we would just pick the best DPS skills and thus evolve into essentially 2 classes? Stamina/Magicka DPS and not Magic: X5 / Stamina X5

Taonnor

@karekiz Do not we already have this situation? It will probably result in your scenario after the conversion. However, I hope that then the unpopular trees are strengthened and so different builds playable arise.

Checkmath

As many players, especially in the german thread, already stated: this will lead to a mass homogenization and inhibit any diversity. I saw already similar threads and all got a very similar response. For PvE this will result in actually only 4 builds at all. We will have the perfect tank build, the perfect healer build and two damage dealer builds. At the moment we have definitely more diversity, since different classes bring different unique buffs or synergies to the group. Thanks to this uniqueness we still see a sorcerer in the group for conduit, we still have a DK for engulfing flames, a warden for minor toughness maybe. Also devs want to strengthen this current image of every class welcomed to a group by some uniqueness. But this suggestions would just eliminate every diversity and uniqueness at all. And in the end everyone wants to be some kind of special and identifies with a class. At the moment you decide one class you want to play with a character and that is fine. Merging all classes would definitely destroy that feeling of playing as you want, since you can respec class trees, can be anything, but in the end you do not choose really. The current classes has limits, but also strengths. This makes choosing a class difficult, but also interesting. It does define your character and makes him unique. The idea of removing classes at all does not only hurt diversity, but also the general game experience.

Taonnor

@Checkmath Yes, that is the first and simplest thought about that Suggestion.

But you spoke about the "uniqueness" from each class. So as i understand these "uniqueness", they will be provided by the given "Class-Skilltrees" from each classes. So if you creating "Class-Skilltrees" where every Tree provides a one unique feature for the group. Would this not create the needed "uniqueness"? And will this not end up into more diversity as currently?

Checkmath

Taonnor wrote: »

@Checkmath Yes, that is the first and simplest thought about that Suggestion.

But you spoke about the "uniqueness" from each class. So as i understand these "uniqueness", they will be provided by the given "Class-Skilltrees" from each classes. So if you creating "Class-Skilltrees" where every Tree provides a one unique feature for the group. Would this not create the needed "uniqueness"? And will this not end up into more diversity as currently?

No it will not. Because this uniqueness will be open to everyone and is not tied to your ultimate class choice at the start. It will not be uniqueness if you choose a tree for a specific buff, it will be a sacrifice to your group. If with the two healers and tanks not all specific buffs are given, then one dd has to sacrifice one of its skill trees to be able to provide a buff/debuff. If there are several unique skill tree buffs, then you could say that you proudly introduced the supporter role: a damage dealer with supbar skills and skill trees only to meet the missing buffs.
Again the uniqueness does not come from the skill trees, if you can respec them. Uniqueness comes from the ultimate choice you do at the beginning of creating a character. This choice makes him special. Even if you could not respec the trees, it would be less satisfying than what we have now, because you are probably more vulnerable to changes and even faster dissatisfied with your original choice. People right now stick to their classes, because they are defined. Opening this up would lead firstly to a huge grindfest, so that everyone has unlocked everything. additionally it would encourage playing the only existing meta and everyone is cursed to change skilltrees as soon as a new meta comes up. There is nothing special about a character anymore, when everyone has access to it.

At the moment you still see different classes taken into end content. In casual guilds, but also in hardcore guilds. This happens because there are some unique abilities, which needs to be taken into a raid, but also because people are attached and better with some classes than with others. If its about dps, then you take the character, you are best with. In some cases this does not have to be a nightblade. I pull better dps with a templar than with a nightblade, so why should i bring the nightblade to the raid? But your idea will result in an absolute meta, where even in casual guilds, where dps and buffs do not matter that much, only the one meta will be played. Why that? Because respeccing skill trees would be easy and therefore there is no reason left for somebody to not play the meta.

Red_Feather

I like how the original guild wars did it.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attribute

There was hundreds of useful builds, and a wiki dedicated exclusively to build showcasing and discussion.
https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki

That game could of grown on for decades if anet hadn't of abandoned it and left it to die.

BNOC

This would be abused beyond belief.

Imagine a zerg of players with Restoring Light for heals, cleanse etc; Assassination for merciless resolve, impale and any other line at this point for rolling negates, trees or whatever.

Keep classes unique, the class system isn't broken imo.

Taonnor

BNOC wrote: »

This would be abused beyond belief.

Imagine a zerg of players with Restoring Light for heals, cleanse etc; Assassination for merciless resolve, impale and any other line at this point for rolling negates, trees or whatever.

Keep classes unique, the class system isn't broken imo.

You have not enough active slots for this!

Maryal

The suggestion creates too many conflicts with ES lore.

All ES games (including ESO) are drenched in ES lore ... this includes the parameters of the classes. The ES franchise is alive and well and is continuing (ES VI). Keep in mind that Bethesda employs a lore master whose job is to ensure lore consistency among the ES games. The classes and class abilities in ESO are rooted in ES lore, and any change that causes a conflict or potential conflict in the lore has to be approved by Bethesda. Hypothetically, lets assume the suggested 'change' didn't conflict with existing ES lore, but merely expanded on it. What then? Well, such a change still has to be approved by Bethesda to avoid any potential conflict with the upcoming ES VI.

Spoiler

Note: the reason players had freedom to create or customize the 'hero' in the single player ES games was because the 'hero's' race, abilities, passives in the single player games never became part of the lore.

Merlin13KAGL

No. Diversity dies entirely and balance becomes an even bigger train wreck than it already is.

FakeFox

Open classes in single player games lead to more diversity, open classes in a MMO lead to less. MMOs are competitive and people will play what ever is best, more open classes strengthen this problem significantly from my experience. What it really needs is for classes to have enough uniqueness that they are picked not matter how weak they are in DPS and generally better balancing would be great as well, but ESOs balancing system is so flawed this will never happen anyway.

karekiz

Here is a perfect example of why it doesn't work out:

The Secret World - No classes! Open ability wheel! So much build options!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQitXwcb15s&t=651s

18 builds. You might think that it is incredibly diverse and unique, but there is a hidden truth to it. It is 18 builds of the exact same build. All based on one passive <Elemental Force>. If you really wanted to go into it and cut it even more than there are really two *Good* DPS builds of those Ele force - A buff build <mandatory> - Hammer / X. Hammer have such a powerful ability that basically synergies with elemental force <Which is so powerful if you ever wanted to DPS anything worth while you basically had to have it>. All builds share basically the same rotation - Consume on ele force. Think if every class had the exact same rotation in ESO.

I think that game had 400 abilities? Really only about 8 of those saw much of any use. Thats why open class systems are almost always broken in endgame.

db0ssman

As someone who gets enjoyment out of a game by being an explorer (testing out new builds, mechanics, set-ups etc etc) I love the idea, but as someone who's played a videogame before, I don't think it would work out very well. The main problem is that in endgame, it's basically just going to create one meta build instead of the 2 or three that exist now. For example, a healer build would look like:

Aedric spears & Restoring Light & Green Balance - SPC/OLO 1 support set, Earthgore

Aedric Spears - Damage & Shards
Restoring Light - Insane Healing
Green Balance - Ult generation & resource support (Toughness & minor regen buffs)

Basically, anyone not running that wouldn't be welcome in trials or premade vet groups.

Checkmath

db0ssman wrote: »

As someone who gets enjoyment out of a game by being an explorer (testing out new builds, mechanics, set-ups etc etc) I love the idea, but as someone who's played a videogame before, I don't think it would work out very well. The main problem is that in endgame, it's basically just going to create one meta build instead of the 2 or three that exist now. For example, a healer build would look like:

Aedric spears & Restoring Light & Green Balance - SPC/OLO 1 support set, Earthgore

Aedric Spears - Damage & Shards
Restoring Light - Insane Healing
Green Balance - Ult generation & resource support (Toughness & minor regen buffs)

Basically, anyone not running that wouldn't be welcome in trials or premade vet groups.

I think instead of aedric spear, healers will need to use storm calling from sorcerers to provide the conduit synergy. Well at least one healer, maybe the other will really use aedric spear for power of the light debuff.

db0ssman

Checkmath wrote: »

show previous quotes

db0ssman wrote: »

As someone who gets enjoyment out of a game by being an explorer (testing out new builds, mechanics, set-ups etc etc) I love the idea, but as someone who's played a videogame before, I don't think it would work out very well. The main problem is that in endgame, it's basically just going to create one meta build instead of the 2 or three that exist now. For example, a healer build would look like:

Aedric spears & Restoring Light & Green Balance - SPC/OLO 1 support set, Earthgore

Aedric Spears - Damage & Shards
Restoring Light - Insane Healing
Green Balance - Ult generation & resource support (Toughness & minor regen buffs)

Basically, anyone not running that wouldn't be welcome in trials or premade vet groups.

I think instead of aedric spear, healers will need to use storm calling from sorcerers to provide the conduit synergy. Well at least one healer, maybe the other will really use aedric spear for power of the light debuff.

You're probably right and the passives for storm calling would help a healer more and they could do damage by off-handing a lightning staff (for dungeons).

Casul

Imagine the Stamina Wardenblade

Sub assault > cloak > ambush > incapacitating strike > surprise attack > killers blade.

Throw in a Selene proc just for good measure.

Heck if going cloak made the bear disappear then even that might be viable.

RaptorRodeoGod

It's probably too much work to implement the idea at this stage of the game. It might have worked if the game was originally made based around it though. It's too bad because I'd probably be more into it if that were the case.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Even in the early days of D&D, you always had that ONE guy who insisted on playing the Half-Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief/Cleric. I guess some things never change.

Lasinagol

I just wouldn't want to be the one to tell a team of people they need to rework the tutorial of three different ways just to incorporate the introduction. That also makes it more duanting to new players with just loads of information to choose from at the start...experienced players will just become 4 to 6 different builds for the trials and diversity will be seen as a sign of someone who hasn't learnt to play.

tunepunk

Lasinagol wrote: »

I just wouldn't want to be the one to tell a team of people they need to rework the tutorial of three different ways just to incorporate the introduction. That also makes it more duanting to new players with just loads of information to choose from at the start...experienced players will just become 4 to 6 different builds for the trials and diversity will be seen as a sign of someone who hasn't learnt to play.

That's exactly how it is already. If you're not slotting DW+BOW as a stamina (no matter what class) you're already in that category, and you're probably only slotting 1-2 class specific skill at most, becuase there's just not enough decent stamina morphs in class trees.

The problem currently is that there is just way too few skills that synergise with each other. Have you seen any viable 2H+ Flame staff builds? Or a Bow + Lighting staff DPS build?

If they want to increase diversity they either need to add more viable skills, and a way for skills lines from different pools to synergise with each other.

For example:

"Soften Metal passive" When you apply burning to a target your physical penetration is increased by 5280 against burning targets. That would open up combos of Flame staff back bar with A Melee front bar.

"Crystalize blood passive". When you apply bleeding to a target, they take 20% more frost damage and is slowed for 3 seconds. DW back bar and Ice staff front bar.

"Static Discharge passive".. Every time your target takes Lightning damage your target builds up static for 5 seconds stacking up to 20 times. Static deals XXX physical damage to that target and XXX physical to adjecent foes while active.

The problem is really ZOS team creativity.

ImmortalCX

I think the developers would LOVE this. They wouldn't have to balance classes any more. Just make changes and let the chips fall where they may.

DeadlyRecluse

1. This sounds like a completely different game. Not the game I've invested 100s of dollars and 1000s of hours in.
2. I don't want to fight anyone with access to cloak+shade, streak, and shimmering shield. Uncoupling class skill lines from classes requires essentially a complete rework of almost every single skill line...again, that starts to sound like a completely different game.