Looking for 3 DPS and 1 tank for (insert vet dungeon name here)

Darkenarlol

i like to run in 3 (flawless concueror = minimum requirement lol) dd with self sustain/self heals with 150+k party dps

maybe we should look into our builds to raise it into 180+

we CAN switch 1 dd spot for healer who is capable of bringing 30+k dps

will it save anyone from oneshots? nope

do we need a healer for anything that is not one-shot? nope



but c'mon let's bring some zos logic here - remove all heals ( just block them lol) on dd and tank

so those useless healbots from normal trials spamming springs all day and casting 10+ globes in a row in 4 man content

in first 10 seconds of the fight but not a single one never again can get their hugs and love


c'mon zos - destroy this game (uh you allready did it so just give it a nice fatality) - i really beleive that you can =D

Vildebill

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

You did understand I was sarcastic? The problem is not shields, the problem is lousy mechanics that makes most content easier with 3 DDs. Who cares if hardened ward is 8k or 20k, you don't need a 20k shield in PvE.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

That might have been the intent and how it was played 2 years ago, but every boss in that dungeon can be nuked with enough damage. You dont need to pass the pinion or kill portals if you are fast enough on the third boss. The Second boss (the trio) can be stacked and burned. The first boss has never been anything but a straight burn (and make fun of the guy in the cage). On the last boss, if you dont do HM, you can easily skip the 3rd phase if you ulti bomb the second. Even on HM, its burn, kill stationary adds, burn and repeat.

When we were farming helms, we were running 3 DPS and a tank. Runs took approx 11 minutes each.

Somewhere

A lot of the arguments people are making here are valid, but they don't really get to the point that we're not really encouraged to bring a healer by the mechanics. Take scalecaller for instance. In that dungeon everything instantly kills you or does so little your self healing saves you. I can think of at least 5 ohko mechanics in that dungeon off the top of my head. More if you count attacks that no one but the tank is gonna love through.

Why would I bring a healer if I can get 120k dps with 3 dd? A boss with 3mil health only lives 25 sec on that assuming it's just a tank and spank. That's not even sustained damage, that's just straight up burst. In fights where bosses become immune during certain mechanics (eg. Xal nur, zaan) that dps let's you push through to those mechanics that you don't even have to worry about sustained damage, because it's not really there.

If I can keep myself alive against the small damage (which I should be able to), the tank can keep themselves alive, and the healer can't save themselves against the big damage, why would a healer be encouraged to be brought along? Look, I like having a healer, it makes things easier usually. There's just too many other dungeons that more damage makes it even easier.

ZOS will probably just end up nuking our self healing, esp the tank's self healing honestly. That way everyone dies without a healer. After all, why actually design mechanics that warrant a healer when you can just nerf your players enough so they need it?

Kel

kathandira wrote: »

Since this is the case these days, I have built my healer to be more of a buffer than a healer. Don't get me wrong, my heals are just fine. But I provide many ways to increase the teams resistances, regen, magicka cost reduction, and increased damage dealt.

If my heals aren't always as needed, at least I can buff the crap out of the team to keep up the pace.

^
Pretty much this.
Healing in this game is pretty much like playing a bard. You do a little damage, you do a little healing, but you are mostly there to be a buff bot.

Everyone asking for a bard class, just know you can play as one right now. It's called being a healer, though.

The healer discord opened my eyes to many things. I was suprised how many healers in this game are just fine with this, but I started a healer to actually...heal. I know, I know...it's crazy. But outside of trials and maybe PvP, healers are expected to be bards...buffing/debuffing all things.

Healers in ESO are definitely in a weird place...

idk

The new bosses pretty much do not have a dps check but the one shots are real. Also, it takes fairly skilled players to be able to do the newer dungeons sans a healer. Of course I am talking about vet.

The newer fights are pretty much mostly get the mechanics right or brutal punishment. The only thing high dps helps with is fewer cycles of mechanics.

But yes, Zos has gotten lazy with how they design mechanics in the last two years. This has been clear and one shots are really just a small part of it.

TheGreatBlackBear

jabrone77 wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Since this is the case these days, I have built my healer to be more of a buffer than a healer. Don't get me wrong, my heals are just fine. But I provide many ways to increase the teams resistances, regen, magicka cost reduction, and increased damage dealt.

If my heals aren't always as needed, at least I can buff the crap out of the team to keep up the pace.

^
Pretty much this.
Healing in this game is pretty much like playing a bard. You do a little damage, you do a little healing, but you are mostly there to be a buff bot.

Everyone asking for a bard class, just know you can play as one right now. It's called being a healer, though.

The healer discord opened my eyes to many things. I was suprised how many healers in this game are just fine with this, but I started a healer to actually...heal. I know, I know...it's crazy. But outside of trials and maybe PvP, healers are expected to be bards...buffing/debuffing all things.

Healers in ESO are definitely in a weird place...

It also doesn't help that lately "healing" sets focus more on buffing allies as opposed to I dunno healing them. The standard bearer for healing sets is Olorime at the moment. And it buffs as its 5 pc bonus. It further solidifies that idea that healers are there to primarily raise DPS. Any random AoE effect procs it blocade, shards. Even endless hail will proc it! (Yes I have an Olorime bow!) So why is this not a "DPS" set? It doesn't even have the plus 2% healing that mending provides. It provides ZERO utility to the wearer in a healing sense.

Peekachu99

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

start by changing the 1-shots in heavy hitting continous damage that make it virtually impossible to run without a proper dedicated healer no matter how many cp points you got

This still won’t work, since ANY spell/ skill output is tied to maximum resource, so a stam toon popping vigor or a Sorc using matriarch and fully specced for DPS (crit) will still outshine and render useless any healer. I cleared VSP HM, second week it was out with TWO stamina dps (and one magblade). The triple frost giant phase is notorious for wiping groups and we burned it so fast that the boss got animation locked a few times. The dpses’ vigors outhealed anything I’ve ever seen when queuing for that via random or helping out other groups. It was insane. Like 10K ticks on my tank without critting.

Until they separate resource pools from damage/ output, and give healers skills exclusively that other specs don’t have or wouldn’t take, they will remain backbenched.

MooseKnuckles88

Vildebill wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

You did understand I was sarcastic? The problem is not shields, the problem is lousy mechanics that makes most content easier with 3 DDs. Who cares if hardened ward is 8k or 20k, you don't need a 20k shield in PvE.

Yeah I got the sarcasm there. I did a random the other and got Moon Hunter Keep. All four of us were DPS and we flew through it.

idk

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

You did understand I was sarcastic? The problem is not shields, the problem is lousy mechanics that makes most content easier with 3 DDs. Who cares if hardened ward is 8k or 20k, you don't need a 20k shield in PvE.

Yeah I got the sarcasm there. I did a random the other and got Moon Hunter Keep. All four of us were DPS and we flew through it.

I misunderstood this thread thinking it was in the context of the more challenging content. Not the lower difficulty level.

El_Borracho

It all depends on who the DPS are. If its 3 bangers, then you don't need a healer for most dungeons, especially if the 3 DPS are using vigor. If the 3 DPS are weak, or 2 of them are weak, then no healer is going to be a handicap. The dungeons come in different levels of difficulty. There are some that you might be able to run 4 DPS on (COA 1 comes to mind). There are others like Fang Lair HM where we wiped until we pulled in a healer.

If the DPS stinks, and the healer is good, its usually pretty obvious that the DPS stinks. The end result is almost always going to be a looooooong final boss because of the slow burn. But, if the healer stinks, then the lack of a 3rd DPS is exacerbated as there is not the extra damage, the healer is not healing, and most of the time, the DPS are having to res the healer instead of DPSing. Perfect example: I ran vet Darkshade 2 this weekend with a healer. He was fine until the last boss. There, most of the time we were picking him up off the floor, rushing to get as many shots on Engine Guardian as possible, then running back to res him, dropping vigor and pots the whole time. Would have absolutely preferred a third DPS over that.

Troneon

DPS is everything, tanks and healers are barely needed for anything.

ZOS decided buffing HP on everything and adding 1000 one shot mechanics = challenging content so everyone wants to burn burn burn dps dps dps. A healer or tank can't save you from RNG or one shot mechanics.

Blame ZOS.

kathandira

Reposting this to see if there are any opinions on such an idea.

"Currently, any class can fill any role. Granted, there are classes which are optimal for certain roles, but if you want to be a Nightblade healer, you certainly can do it. If you want to be a Sorc Tank, you certainly can do it.

The problem is, since each class has a way to heal itself, or protect itself just as good as a dedicated healer could, you can simply just slot those skills, and do the job yourself.

There is a way this could be fixed, but it would come with complaints. Implement a role buff and debuff system in dungeons. This would force the trinity system to be used as intended. These buffs and debuffs would be decided based on the role you queue up as. See below:

Tank
Buff - Increased Health and Resistances
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Damage Dealt

Healer
Buff - Increased Healing and Shield Strength
Debuff - Reduced Damage Dealt

DPS
Buff - Increased Damage Dealt
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Shield Strength

Something along these lines would force people to enter dungeons with 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 Healer. But the problem is, this goes against the "Play Any Way" mindset as you would now be forced to play a specific way."

FrancisCrawford

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

The standard approach is one destro bar and one resto bar. The destro bar can have Elemental Drain and up to 4 non-ultimate damage skills. Now, those damage skills may be picked in part for their non-damage benefits, e.g. Shards (and exactly that morph). But there can easily be both bar room and time for a genuine damage rotation.

kathandira

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

The standard approach is one destro bar and one resto bar. The destro bar can have Elemental Drain and up to 4 non-ultimate damage skills. Now, those damage skills may be picked in part for their non-damage benefits, e.g. Shards (and exactly that morph). But there can easily be both bar room and time for a genuine damage rotation.

My Templar Healer used to roll with some damage, now I just go with Buffs. It is more effective in the end. The damage I was dealing was barely worth it at all, but with the below skills, I can buff the existing DPS above the damage i'd be able to deal.

Bar 1
Breath of Life
Mutagen
Combat Prayer
Siphon Spirit
Healing Springs

Bar 2
Necrotic Orb
Rune Focus
Harness Magicka
Ritual of Retribution
Luminous Shards

This build is paired with Spell Power Cure (Increase Spell Damage for group), and Worm Cult (Reduce Magicka Cost for group)

Donny_Vito

kathandira wrote: »

Reposting this to see if there are any opinions on such an idea.

"Currently, any class can fill any role. Granted, there are classes which are optimal for certain roles, but if you want to be a Nightblade healer, you certainly can do it. If you want to be a Sorc Tank, you certainly can do it.

The problem is, since each class has a way to heal itself, or protect itself just as good as a dedicated healer could, you can simply just slot those skills, and do the job yourself.

There is a way this could be fixed, but it would come with complaints. Implement a role buff and debuff system in dungeons. This would force the trinity system to be used as intended. These buffs and debuffs would be decided based on the role you queue up as. See below:

Tank
Buff - Increased Health and Resistances
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Damage Dealt

Healer
Buff - Increased Healing and Shield Strength
Debuff - Reduced Damage Dealt

DPS
Buff - Increased Damage Dealt
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Shield Strength

Something along these lines would force people to enter dungeons with 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 Healer. But the problem is, this goes against the "Play Any Way" mindset as you would now be forced to play a specific way."

I saw this similar idea on another thread (may have been you as well). While I like the idea of where this is going, I believe these buffs would make the dungeons much easier. My tank hardly ever dies, but with those extra buffs it would be damn near impossible. DPS who pull 30k+ will now be even higher. Healers would still be healers.

randomkeyhits

If the developers wanted to make mechanics so they can't be skipped its trivially easy.

Clearly they wanted to keep open the quick burn option for an easy completion.

Now maybe they just wanted to reward two good damagers but the "go large" option on DPS was always guaranteed to happen, seen it too often and the only thing that ever changes is whether to drop the tank or healer, varies from game to game.

The thing is, especially in vet dungeons based on the damage numbers quoted this only really applies to the end content players who are what 5%? 3%? of the player base. Not really an issue as you cannot truly cater to them without alienating the rest of the player base.

Any lesser beings had better have that healer around as they simply won't have the burn and will have to deal with the mechanisms.

For the record, I consider all one-shots to be a game designer failure, cheap, cheesey and lazy as f.......

kathandira

Donny_Vito wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Reposting this to see if there are any opinions on such an idea.

"Currently, any class can fill any role. Granted, there are classes which are optimal for certain roles, but if you want to be a Nightblade healer, you certainly can do it. If you want to be a Sorc Tank, you certainly can do it.

The problem is, since each class has a way to heal itself, or protect itself just as good as a dedicated healer could, you can simply just slot those skills, and do the job yourself.

There is a way this could be fixed, but it would come with complaints. Implement a role buff and debuff system in dungeons. This would force the trinity system to be used as intended. These buffs and debuffs would be decided based on the role you queue up as. See below:

Tank
Buff - Increased Health and Resistances
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Damage Dealt

Healer
Buff - Increased Healing and Shield Strength
Debuff - Reduced Damage Dealt

DPS
Buff - Increased Damage Dealt
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Shield Strength

Something along these lines would force people to enter dungeons with 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 Healer. But the problem is, this goes against the "Play Any Way" mindset as you would now be forced to play a specific way."

I saw this similar idea on another thread (may have been you as well). While I like the idea of where this is going, I believe these buffs would make the dungeons much easier. My tank hardly ever dies, but with those extra buffs it would be damn near impossible. DPS who pull 30k+ will now be even higher. Healers would still be healers.

What's nice about this idea, is it allows tweaking of boss damage intake and output without resorting to 1 shot hits. Can get a bit creative with the buffs during fights too. Such as bosses that remove the buff from a particular role, or even buff it for particular roles.

The idea absolutely would need much more thought. But it so far is the only thing I can think of rather than restructuring the game away from every class getting access to every skill line.

MLGProPlayer

The game is designed to not require healers. Almost all boss damage is 1-shot burst.

WrathOfInnos

No healer needed is a fact. No healer wanted is a misunderstanding. A good dungeon healer will keep the group alive, while buffing allies and debuffing enemies, providing resources to the group, and putting out decent damage. I have no objection to bringing a healer that will cast Ele drain for me, provide orbs, use combat prayer and Warhorn, bring Major Courage and Minor Sorcery, keep shards and wall of elements on the enemies (easily pulling 10-15k DPS themselves). This type of healer is never unwanted.

The other type of healer is the one that wants to only slot healing abilities, and stands there spamming springs and breath of life when everyone is already at full health, refusing to use anything that benefits the group or damages the enemies, because “that’s not their job, they are supposed to heal”, those are the healers that feel like deadweight through a dungeon. I will carry them, never kick, but nobody is going to request this type of healer because they do not add much value to a group.

Jeremy

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

I get your argument, and it's a fair one. But it neglects a few points.

Firstly: healing takes up time and resources. So a DPS or tank having to focus on keeping themselves alive is likely doing less damage as a result. Secondly (and this is especially the case since damage-dealers are likely only to slot a single heal ability for emergencies) they won't have the consistent effects from healing over time abilities active - which is a lot more efficient for countering general damage.

Having every player come as damage-dealers who heal themselves is viable - and maybe even preferable - on easier content where DPS checks are the only concern. On more difficult content though where general damage is more threatening I'm skeptical this strategy would be more effective than a balanced team with a focused healer.

idk

Jeremy wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

I get your argument, and it's a fair one. But it neglects a few points.

Firstly: healing takes up time and resources. So a DPS or tank having to focus on keeping themselves alive is likely doing less damage as a result. Secondly (and this is especially the case since damage-dealers are likely only to slot a single heal ability for emergencies) they won't have the consistent effects from healing over time abilities active - which is a lot more efficient for countering general damage.

Having every player come as damage-dealers who heal themselves is viable - and maybe even preferable - on easier content where DPS checks are the only concern. On more difficult content though where general damage is more threatening I'm skeptical this strategy would be more effective than a balanced team with a healer.

The flaw here is ESO requires DPS to be active in keeping themselves alive. While a dodge roll here and there or having to cast a shield does reduce DPS, this game has many one shots the healer obviously cannot heal through and many hard hitting mechanics that the reaction time for healers is not fast enough.

From the day this game went live if a DPS died it was often their fault, not the healer.

Jeremy

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

I get your argument, and it's a fair one. But it neglects a few points.

Firstly: healing takes up time and resources. So a DPS or tank having to focus on keeping themselves alive is likely doing less damage as a result. Secondly (and this is especially the case since damage-dealers are likely only to slot a single heal ability for emergencies) they won't have the consistent effects from healing over time abilities active - which is a lot more efficient for countering general damage.

Having every player come as damage-dealers who heal themselves is viable - and maybe even preferable - on easier content where DPS checks are the only concern. On more difficult content though where general damage is more threatening I'm skeptical this strategy would be more effective than a balanced team with a healer.

The flaw here is ESO requires DPS to be active in keeping themselves alive. While a dodge roll here and there or having to cast a shield does reduce DPS, this game has many one shots the healer obviously cannot heal through and many hard hitting mechanics that the reaction time for healers is not fast enough.

From the day this game went live if a DPS died it was often their fault, not the healer.

On dungeons where the occasional one shot due to mechanics or special attacks is the only threat, that's true. But like I said, that's mostly only true of easier content. In more difficult veteran content there is a steady incoming of damage that requires more constant care. So any damage dealer or tank who takes it on him or herself to counter all their incoming damage by themselves is going to suffer in other areas as a result. In those situations - I believe having a focused healer would be more effective.

Jeremy

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

This is also part of the problem.

A lot of damage-dealers run very fragile builds who die almost instantly every time something looks at them. So even general damage that is meant to be healed through winds up being fatal. This is another factor that leads people to believe healers are useless - when in fact they can be effective in competent groups.

This game does rely on an over-abundance of one-shot mechanisms though. There is no denying that. That does contribute to the problem as well. Though not to the extent that healers aren't useful - because I believe they still are, at least on the more difficult content.

TheGreatBlackBear

Jeremy wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

This is also part of the problem.

A lot of damage-dealers run very fragile builds who die almost instantly every time something looks at them. So even general damage that is meant to be healed through winds up being fatal. This is another factor that leads people to believe healers are useless - when in fact they can be effective in competent groups.

This game does rely on an over-abundance of one-shot mechanisms though. There is no denying that. That does contribute to the problem as well. Though not to the extent that healers aren't useful - because I believe they still are, at least on the more difficult content.

Apparently, putting points into health is a DPS loss. So I guess dying isn't one then.

Aisle9

kathandira wrote: »

Reposting this to see if there are any opinions on such an idea.

"Currently, any class can fill any role. Granted, there are classes which are optimal for certain roles, but if you want to be a Nightblade healer, you certainly can do it. If you want to be a Sorc Tank, you certainly can do it.

The problem is, since each class has a way to heal itself, or protect itself just as good as a dedicated healer could, you can simply just slot those skills, and do the job yourself.

There is a way this could be fixed, but it would come with complaints. Implement a role buff and debuff system in dungeons. This would force the trinity system to be used as intended. These buffs and debuffs would be decided based on the role you queue up as. See below:

Tank
Buff - Increased Health and Resistances
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Damage Dealt

Healer
Buff - Increased Healing and Shield Strength
Debuff - Reduced Damage Dealt

DPS
Buff - Increased Damage Dealt
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Shield Strength

Something along these lines would force people to enter dungeons with 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 Healer. But the problem is, this goes against the "Play Any Way" mindset as you would now be forced to play a specific way."

My stamina warden healer has something to say about that...

eso_nya

for the ppl who pass the dps checks, (no matter if w/ or w/o healer) the game will always be to easy.
for the ppl who fail them, the game will appear to be insanely difficult up to impossible to beat.

If they were to remove all mechanics that can be bypassed, it shouldnt be any different for the top tier. it might be insanely boring for the low tier tho. like a normal dungeon where the bosses have 100m+ hp. makes me wonder if more or less ppl would run dlc dungeons.

personally i find systems that punish playing bad but do not reward playing good disgusting.
i also find it disgusting when "learn the mechanics" equals "hit the trainingdummy until u can pull 50k selfbuffed".

TheGreatBlackBear

If we've reached a stage in the game's life where 50K self buffed is what it takes for 2 dps in a four man team reliably clear newer vet content then the top tier healers will just only run with those players. As opposed to wasting time trying to buff or otherwise raise a weaker team. I can see that happening over time, if not already.

El_Borracho

eso_nya wrote: »

personally i find systems that punish playing bad but do not reward playing good disgusting.
i also find it disgusting when "learn the mechanics" equals "hit the trainingdummy until u can pull 50k selfbuffed".

I could not agree more. Mechanics are part of this game. Its a way to keep the content interesting and not make it an all-out button masher. Not saying everything has to be the MHK werewolf, that f*&%*$ng deer in MOS, or the Twins in vMOL (yes, I know its not a dungeon...). Seems the DLC dungeons have focused not on slowing down the burn, but putting in some mechanics that get in the way at slotted intervals.

But, at the same time I am fine with having dungeons that reward fast burn. There has to be some incentive to continue to advance your character. Feels like we have a good mix of both

Forgotten in the OP is the fact that not everyone who plays is a CP780 with 50K DD. There are players who still need a healer to get through dungeons.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

yeah healers are overrated sry...time to pick up a shield.