Looking for 3 DPS and 1 tank for (insert vet dungeon name here)

TheGreatBlackBear

The "no healer needed" controversy is not new and needs no introduction. It's simply the idea that it's better (easier, more valuable, faster) to carry an extra damage dealer to some of the newer dungeons. Many reasons have been touted for doing so, however the ones you'll here most often are
1 Everything is a "one-shot" (damage so high that it cannot be effectively mitigated, shielded against or healed through)
2 Bosses have a DPS check mechanic and if you fail (by not burning it fast enough) the team will either wipe or face some sort of other unpleasantness.

And on the face of it that's sound logic. Why would you want to bring a dedicated healer when healing doesn't save you from death? Just clutch up and learn to avoid death and bring along another self-healing DPS who can do the same and burn the boss before the DPS check. But what if you learn to avoid the one shots? Because more often than not they're telegraphed attacks that happen on a pattern. (Yes we know this is ESO and it's buggy as hell sometimes. I'm looking at you hulking werewolves!) Will you take a healer then? Probably not right? That just leaves the dreaded DPS check. I say this without apology and without prejudice: if you NEED (not want) a third DPS to clear any dungeon that is a strong indicator that one or both of the DPS in that team isn't up to par. Go back to Fungal Grotto 1! I'm joking, please stay, but take a good hard look at yourself. A vet DLC dungeon is the very best the game has to offer; it requires top level stats, sets and skills. Of course two twenty or thirty ish k DPS would struggle. That dungeon isn't for you (yet). If a dungeon needs 120k team DPS to clear the most logical thing (from my point of view) is two good 45K ish DPS with the healer and tank buffing, debuffing and making up the other 30k. Three 30K ish DPS and a tank doing the rest is certainly possible but don't be fooled into thinking that it's faster or META. The healer class (in my view) has been made a scapegoat in certain situations for DPS who simply struggle to function at an elite level. You can of course play however you like as your money went into buying the game. It's just something to consider.

Vildebill

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

Uviryth

Dungeons in this game are all sorts of messed up.
Can anyone PLEASE tell Zenimax that oneshot-mechanics are NOT good dungeondesign?

madarame_77

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

susmitds

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

Which boss? We always run 3 DPS max burn in WGT and with a good tank who tank adds well, this is a non issue

codestripper

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

I can't think of a single boss in white-gold tower where this happens. The new bosses in MHK and MOS sure, but what boss are you referencing with WGT?

madarame_77

codestripper wrote: »

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

I can't think of a single boss in white-gold tower where this happens. The new bosses in MHK and MOS sure, but what boss are you referencing with WGT?

Sorry, yes I meant the new dungeons. Just an example how it should be done.

TheGreatBlackBear

Domihaus hard mode is a classic DPS race. Burn him before all pillars are gone.Swap to adds and go back to Domi after. I have no problem with that kind of fight if we have big boy/girl deeps on the team. It gets frustrating when one of them can't pull their weight and all pillars are gone. Then grumblings of we need a third DPS come out.

codestripper

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Domihaus hard mode is a classic DPS race. Burn him before all pillars are gone.Swap to adds and go back to Domi after. I have no problem with that kind of fight if we have big boy/girl deeps on the team. It gets frustrating when one of them can't pull their weight and all pillars are gone. Then grumblings of we need a third DPS come out.

Only problem with that fight is how inconsistent the mechanics are. If you burn too fast he can skip phases and do things out of order. Makes you think he's going to shout and he just spawns 3 sets of adds. Couple of times we had it where the fire ring was on the outside, he spawned adds, then instantly went into the mechanic where he spawns those AoE circles that follow you. You really can't survive that. We learned you almost need to baby the DPS on him at certain points so you don't push too hard.

kylewwefan

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

TheGreatBlackBear

codestripper wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Domihaus hard mode is a classic DPS race. Burn him before all pillars are gone.Swap to adds and go back to Domi after. I have no problem with that kind of fight if we have big boy/girl deeps on the team. It gets frustrating when one of them can't pull their weight and all pillars are gone. Then grumblings of we need a third DPS come out.

Only problem with that fight is how inconsistent the mechanics are. If you burn too fast he can skip phases and do things out of order. Makes you think he's going to shout and he just spawns 3 sets of adds. Couple of times we had it where the fire ring was on the outside, he spawned adds, then instantly went into the mechanic where he spawns those AoE circles that follow you. You really can't survive that. We learned you almost need to baby the DPS on him at certain points so you don't push too hard.

Of course! That's part of it. By all means throttle damage when necessary. But if you have the awareness and skill the burn on demand and hold off when not needed this post isn't for you, you know?

TheDarkShadow

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

1 Everything is a "one-shot" (damage so high that it cannot be effectively mitigated, shielded against or healed through)
2 Bosses have a DPS check mechanic and if you fail (by not burning it fast enough) the team will either wipe or face some sort of other unpleasantness.

1 is right but 2 is wrong. Any dps check can be done with 2 decent (30k) DD or even 1 epic DD (50k+). The reason people bring 3 dps (beside everything is 1 shot) is to SKIP mechanic. DPS check mechanic and skip mechanic are 2 different things. For example the 2 (3 in HM) ice adds in vSP is dps check. If you don't kill them fast enough the whole room will freeze and you die. You only need 2 DDs with about 30k to pass this check. But if you have 3 35k+ DDs you can skip all other mechanics in no HM. Zaan beam, fire breath, poison cone from the dragons... skip everything. The boss will just call adds back to back till she die.

It's not about "oh if you need 3 DDs to pass dps check you are not that good yourself." It's about the bigger the number, the more mechanic we can skip and the easier and faster it will be.

kathandira

Since this is the case these days, I have built my healer to be more of a buffer than a healer. Don't get me wrong, my heals are just fine. But I provide many ways to increase the teams resistances, regen, magicka cost reduction, and increased damage dealt.

If my heals aren't always as needed, at least I can buff the crap out of the team to keep up the pace.

MooseKnuckles88

Vildebill wrote: »

Don't worry mate, the shield nerf next patch will fix this

This is just too good not to say again.

If you're a dps running around with 15.5k health, you're gonna love the next update.

TheGreatBlackBear

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

1 Everything is a "one-shot" (damage so high that it cannot be effectively mitigated, shielded against or healed through)
2 Bosses have a DPS check mechanic and if you fail (by not burning it fast enough) the team will either wipe or face some sort of other unpleasantness.

1 is right but 2 is wrong. Any dps check can be done with 2 decent (30k) DD or even 1 epic DD (50k+). The reason people bring 3 dps (beside everything is 1 shot) is to SKIP mechanic. DPS check mechanic and skip mechanic are 2 different things. For example the 2 (3 in HM) ice adds in vSP is dps check. If you don't kill them fast enough the whole room will freeze and you die. You only need 2 DDs with about 30k to pass this check. But if you have 3 35k+ DDs you can skip all other mechanics in no HM. Zaan beam, fire breath, poison cone from the dragons... skip everything. The boss will just call adds back to back till she die.

It's not about "oh if you need 3 DDs to pass dps check you are not that good yourself." It's about the bigger the number, the more mechanic we can skip and the easier and faster it will be.

You make a good point. However consider this: three 35K dps is 105k right? Just a rough average. That 105 K can be got by two 40K dps and the healer pitching in 25 k dps. That's certainly not impractical. So my reasoning is anything that can be done with three better than average DPS can be done with two good DPS and a healer.

Inarre

kylewwefan wrote: »

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

Wifeaggro13

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

The "no healer needed" controversy is not new and needs no introduction. It's simply the idea that it's better (easier, more valuable, faster) to carry an extra damage dealer to some of the newer dungeons. Many reasons have been touted for doing so, however the ones you'll here most often are
1 Everything is a "one-shot" (damage so high that it cannot be effectively mitigated, shielded against or healed through)
2 Bosses have a DPS check mechanic and if you fail (by not burning it fast enough) the team will either wipe or face some sort of other unpleasantness.

And on the face of it that's sound logic. Why would you want to bring a dedicated healer when healing doesn't save you from death? Just clutch up and learn to avoid death and bring along another self-healing DPS who can do the same and burn the boss before the DPS check. But what if you learn to avoid the one shots? Because more often than not they're telegraphed attacks that happen on a pattern. (Yes we know this is ESO and it's buggy as hell sometimes. I'm looking at you hulking werewolves!) Will you take a healer then? Probably not right? That just leaves the dreaded DPS check. I say this without apology and without prejudice: if you NEED (not want) a third DPS to clear any dungeon that is a strong indicator that one or both of the DPS in that team isn't up to par. Go back to Fungal Grotto 1! I'm joking, please stay, but take a good hard look at yourself. A vet DLC dungeon is the very best the game has to offer; it requires top level stats, sets and skills. Of course two twenty or thirty ish k DPS would struggle. That dungeon isn't for you (yet). If a dungeon needs 120k team DPS to clear the most logical thing (from my point of view) is two good 45K ish DPS with the healer and tank buffing, debuffing and making up the other 30k. Three 30K ish DPS and a tank doing the rest is certainly possible but don't be fooled into thinking that it's faster or META. The healer class (in my view) has been made a scapegoat in certain situations for DPS who simply struggle to function at an elite level. You can of course play however you like as your money went into buying the game. It's just something to consider.

They have royaly screwed this game with their insistance in design of DPS with secondary rolls. in ZOS effort to be progressive its actually counter productive. soon they will be GW2. and beleive me the eliete dont need tanks either this game has really missed the mark for MMO players and is a churn of visitors that hit the gift shop before they move on.

karekiz

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

Peekachu99

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

TheGreatBlackBear

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

Lol made irrelevant by a pet. I almost wish you didn't post that because now it will inevitably become a nerf self-healing thread. I'm glad you and others did post though.

kylewwefan

I have a healer toon also. And I Pug a lot. Extra damage is better. And if you’re good enough....you can also heal at the same time!

I’m all the time getting stuck in these groups with atrocious DPS. I used to have the mentality that I was just a healer on this toon. But then I learned how to play a little differently.

Hope you have a chance to get there one day. It took me a bit longer than it should have. You’ll figure it out. Gl

Ashtaris

The real question is why the team of @ZOS_Finn is creating dungeons with one shot’s and DPS checks that is making a healer unwanted or a hinderance rather than a asset?

Waffennacht

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

TheGreatBlackBear

Ashtaris wrote: »

The real question is why the team of @ZOS_Finn is creating dungeons with one shot’s and DPS checks that is making a healer unwanted or a hinderance rather than a asset?

No clue. And ironically healers insta queue for everything. I've gotten my no death, hm and speed run achievements on pugs faster than my some of friends/guildies who refused to take me along on their 3 DPS run did. I do like to troll with titles and skins that I know they're trying to get. Lately I've been rocking Alpha Predator in front my friends who can't even get Silver Knight.

Chicharron

Agree.

I always wonder if the developers play the same game, some decisions simply can not be understood.

profundidob16_ESO

madarame_77 wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

I can't think of a single boss in white-gold tower where this happens. The new bosses in MHK and MOS sure, but what boss are you referencing with WGT?

Sorry, yes I meant the new dungeons. Just an example how it should be done.

exactly ! After failing their design so many times this is the first time they got it right. Pushing boss dps too fast on archivist, Mylene or Vykosa ? => wipe guaranteed.

Trying to be fast makes you finish last...

Jameliel

Crap design is crap design. Spin it, twist it, shape it however you want. ESO has some of the stupidest and laziest designs ever seen in any major mmo. Have said it before and will repeat again, a lot of the staff at zos need to be fired.

profundidob16_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

start by changing the 1-shots in heavy hitting continous damage that make it virtually impossible to run without a proper dedicated healer no matter how many cp points you got

profundidob16_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

Second boss moon hunter keep is a class example. 2 dps go full out on boss until they finally realize that his health is not lowering until they actually stop this mindless dps on boss and go hunt the npc's down that are healing him...brilliant

kathandira

Currently, any class can fill any role. Granted, there are classes which are optimal for certain roles, but if you want to be a Night Blade healer, you certainly can do it. If you want to be a Sorc Tank, you certainly can do it.

The problem is, since each class has a way to heal itself, or protect itself just as good as a dedicated healer could, you can simply just slot those skills, and do the job yourself.

There is a way this could be fixed, but it would come with complaints. Implement a role buff and debuff system in dungeons. This would force the trinity system to be used as intended. These buffs and debuffs would be decided based on the role you queue up as. See below:

Tank
Buff - Increased Health and Resistances
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Damage Dealt

Healer
Buff - Increased Healing and Shield Strength
Debuff - Reduced Damage Dealt

DPS
Buff - Increased Damage Dealt
Debuff - Reduced Healing and Shield Strength

Something along these lines would force people to enter dungeons with 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 Healer. But the problem is, this goes against the "Play Any Way" mind set as you would now be forced to play a specific way.

TheGreatBlackBear

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

start by changing the 1-shots in heavy hitting continous damage that make it virtually impossible to run without a proper dedicated healer no matter how many cp points you got

The bleed from the gryphons in VCR comes to mind.

When all is said and done, i don't mind punishing mechs. I'm up for a challenge. I don't enjoy vet DLC dungeons with low DPS and then being blamed or having my entire role blamed if they can't get it done. I don't know what can be done about this. Raise the entry to 500 CP? Admittedly CP is no guarantee of DPS or experience.