Looking for 3 DPS and 1 tank for (insert vet dungeon name here)

FrancisCrawford

kathandira wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

The standard approach is one destro bar and one resto bar. The destro bar can have Elemental Drain and up to 4 non-ultimate damage skills. Now, those damage skills may be picked in part for their non-damage benefits, e.g. Shards (and exactly that morph). But there can easily be both bar room and time for a genuine damage rotation.

My Templar Healer used to roll with some damage, now I just go with Buffs. It is more effective in the end. The damage I was dealing was barely worth it at all, but with the below skills, I can buff the existing DPS above the damage i'd be able to deal.

Bar 1
Breath of Life
Mutagen
Combat Prayer
Siphon Spirit
Healing Springs

Bar 2
Necrotic Orb
Rune Focus
Harness Magicka
Ritual of Retribution
Luminous Shards

This build is paired with Spell Power Cure (Increase Spell Damage for group), and Worm Cult (Reduce Magicka Cost for group)

Thanks for sharing. I'd have Elemental Blockade, no matter what. I guess Siphon Spirit can fill the role of Elemental Drain and provide a little ticking heal as well. Purifying Light is a bigger buff to DPS than Combat Prayer -- +20% or whatever capped vs. +5% or so uncapped -- unless the DPS is very strong, and then there's no reason not to run both. Both skills also heal.

Which version of Orb do you use and why does it make sense to run both that and Shards?

TheGreatBlackBear

El_Borracho wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

personally i find systems that punish playing bad but do not reward playing good disgusting.
i also find it disgusting when "learn the mechanics" equals "hit the trainingdummy until u can pull 50k selfbuffed".

I could not agree more. Mechanics are part of this game. Its a way to keep the content interesting and not make it an all-out button masher. Not saying everything has to be the MHK werewolf, that f*&%*$ng deer in MOS, or the Twins in vMOL (yes, I know its not a dungeon...). Seems the DLC dungeons have focused not on slowing down the burn, but putting in some mechanics that get in the way at slotted intervals.

But, at the same time I am fine with having dungeons that reward fast burn. There has to be some incentive to continue to advance your character. Feels like we have a good mix of both

Forgotten in the OP is the fact that not everyone who plays is a CP780 with 50K DD. There are players who still need a healer to get through dungeons.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

A vet DLC dungeon is the very best the game has to offer; it requires top level stats, sets and skills.

My position stands.


I'm burnt out from low DPS apologists. (Not that you're one) You don't need 50K DPS or 780 CP but if you're in a vet DLC dungeon 40K plus per DPS is my minimum expectation if we realistically expect to clear in a timely manner. If not there's any other vet dungeon or normal DLC.

code65536

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Domihaus hard mode is a classic DPS race.

@TheGreatBlackBear That's incorrect. It's not a DPS race, at least not until the very end. All of his shouts happen at health percentages (though it is possible to skip some shouts if you push him past the shout threshold while he is in the middle of certain mechanics). The shouts are supposed to happen at 70, 50, 30, and 10% boss health. That's only 4 pillars. There are 8 pillars in non-HM, 6 in HM. So it's possible to get the 2-pillars-remaining achievement in HM without skipping any shouts. (With very high DPS and fortuitous timing, it's possible to skip past shouts and even the shield phase; I've cleared it once with only 2 pillars used--4 pillars remaining--on HM.)

The only burn happens once you hit 10%, at which point shouts happen on a timer. But you should still have two pillars left at that point, and 10% health is basically nothing even with his shield, so this is pretty easy.

So why do groups run out of pillars? Poor positional discipline, plain and simple. If you consistently use more than 1 pillar per shout, then of course you'll run out. If your group is disciplined and stack behind a single pillar for each shout, you can DPS at a leisurely pace and still beat HM.

TheGreatBlackBear

code65536 wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Domihaus hard mode is a classic DPS race.

@TheGreatBlackBear That's incorrect. It's not a DPS race, at least not until the very end. All of his shouts happen at health percentages (though it is possible to skip some shouts if you push him past the shout threshold while he is in the middle of certain mechanics). The shouts are supposed to happen at 70, 50, 30, and 10% boss health. That's only 4 pillars if you don't in inadvertently skip any. There are 8 pillars in non-HM, 6 in HM. So it's possible to get the 2-pillars-remaining achievement in HM without skipping any shouts.

The only burn happens once you hit 10%, at which point shouts happen on a timer. But you should still have two pillars left at that point, and 10% health is basically nothing even with his shield, so this is trivially easy.

So why do groups run out of pillars? Poor positional discipline, plain and simple. If you consistently use more than 1 pillar per shout, then of course you'll run out. If your group is disciplined and stack behind a single pillar for each shout, you can DPS at a leisurely pace and still beat HM.

Ah ok. Well, thanks for correcting me.

Inarre

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have a healer toon also. And I Pug a lot. Extra damage is better. And if you’re good enough....you can also heal at the same time!

I’m all the time getting stuck in these groups with atrocious DPS. I used to have the mentality that I was just a healer on this toon. But then I learned how to play a little differently.

Hope you have a chance to get there one day. It took me a bit longer than it should have. You’ll figure it out. Gl

I would have agreed with you but with that little condescending bit at the end there, I have to ask.. How did you manage to come to the conclusion that only your way was the right way and everyone else is wrong or oblivious? Genuinely interested since I've completed a number of dlc hardmodes in pugs and clearly I don't know what I'm doing since I didn't dps on my healer

kathandira

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

I get your argument, and it's a fair one. But it neglects a few points.

Firstly: healing takes up time and resources. So a DPS or tank having to focus on keeping themselves alive is likely doing less damage as a result. Secondly (and this is especially the case since damage-dealers are likely only to slot a single heal ability for emergencies) they won't have the consistent effects from healing over time abilities active - which is a lot more efficient for countering general damage.

Having every player come as damage-dealers who heal themselves is viable - and maybe even preferable - on easier content where DPS checks are the only concern. On more difficult content though where general damage is more threatening I'm skeptical this strategy would be more effective than a balanced team with a healer.

The flaw here is ESO requires DPS to be active in keeping themselves alive. While a dodge roll here and there or having to cast a shield does reduce DPS, this game has many one shots the healer obviously cannot heal through and many hard hitting mechanics that the reaction time for healers is not fast enough.

From the day this game went live if a DPS died it was often their fault, not the healer.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

It’s the Dungeon healers that come in ready to heal a Trial I take up one small issue with. It’s over the top in dungeons. Do some damage. Don’t have to be monster DPS, just some damage. Make your role interesting. It will support and help the team better.

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

The standard approach is one destro bar and one resto bar. The destro bar can have Elemental Drain and up to 4 non-ultimate damage skills. Now, those damage skills may be picked in part for their non-damage benefits, e.g. Shards (and exactly that morph). But there can easily be both bar room and time for a genuine damage rotation.

My Templar Healer used to roll with some damage, now I just go with Buffs. It is more effective in the end. The damage I was dealing was barely worth it at all, but with the below skills, I can buff the existing DPS above the damage i'd be able to deal.

Bar 1
Breath of Life
Mutagen
Combat Prayer
Siphon Spirit
Healing Springs

Bar 2
Necrotic Orb
Rune Focus
Harness Magicka
Ritual of Retribution
Luminous Shards

This build is paired with Spell Power Cure (Increase Spell Damage for group), and Worm Cult (Reduce Magicka Cost for group)

Thanks for sharing. I'd have Elemental Blockade, no matter what. I guess Siphon Spirit can fill the role of Elemental Drain and provide a little ticking heal as well. Purifying Light is a bigger buff to DPS than Combat Prayer -- +20% or whatever capped vs. +5% or so uncapped -- unless the DPS is very strong, and then there's no reason not to run both. Both skills also heal.

Which version of Orb do you use and why does it make sense to run both that and Shards?

Thanks for the feedback! I've considered reintroducing Elemental Blockade.

Orbs currently are just Necrotic since it takes a million years to morph. I use both Shards and Orbs for positioning. Shards I can leave up at the melee group. While I use Orbs to target the ranged to throw them some regen when they need it.

Vahrokh

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

personally i find systems that punish playing bad but do not reward playing good disgusting.
i also find it disgusting when "learn the mechanics" equals "hit the trainingdummy until u can pull 50k selfbuffed".

I could not agree more. Mechanics are part of this game. Its a way to keep the content interesting and not make it an all-out button masher. Not saying everything has to be the MHK werewolf, that f*&%*$ng deer in MOS, or the Twins in vMOL (yes, I know its not a dungeon...). Seems the DLC dungeons have focused not on slowing down the burn, but putting in some mechanics that get in the way at slotted intervals.

But, at the same time I am fine with having dungeons that reward fast burn. There has to be some incentive to continue to advance your character. Feels like we have a good mix of both

Forgotten in the OP is the fact that not everyone who plays is a CP780 with 50K DD. There are players who still need a healer to get through dungeons.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

A vet DLC dungeon is the very best the game has to offer; it requires top level stats, sets and skills.

My position stands.


I'm burnt out from low DPS apologists. (Not that you're one) You don't need 50K DPS or 780 CP but if you're in a vet DLC dungeon 40K plus per DPS is my minimum expectation if we realistically expect to clear in a timely manner. If not there's any other vet dungeon or normal DLC.

40k plus is what progression trial guilds ask in order to join them.
Aren't we a bit restrictive here?

El_Borracho

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

My position stands.


I'm burnt out from low DPS apologists. (Not that you're one) You don't need 50K DPS or 780 CP but if you're in a vet DLC dungeon 40K plus per DPS is my minimum expectation if we realistically expect to clear in a timely manner. If not there's any other vet dungeon or normal DLC.

I think we are close to the same position. As a primarily DPS player, I hate low DPS players, too. But I also don't want every dungeon to become a slash-and-burn. Its boring. Just as I would not want the aggravation of making every dungeon a mechanical nightmare. If I want to be frustrated, I'll go to vMOS. Or Fang Lair HM.

Low DPS/Inexperienced/Lower CP players should avoid DLC dungeons, most vet dungeons, or harder content. But, at some point, we were all low DPS players. Only way to get better is to do harder content. Not saying jump into Scalecaller with your CP 330 DD who swings around 15K. Maybe run some COA I, VoM I, or Banished Cells first.

notyuu

The reason healers are getting slowly [but somewhat steadily] punted out of most group content in the game is a combination of three..surprisingly simple factors

1: 95% of the mechanics in group play are either 1-shot...in which case a healer isn't going to bloody help, or completely avoidable/mitigatable..again in which case a healer isn't needed.

2: CP increase combined with....other changes means that DPS has reached a point where you can simply melt a boss so fast it skips entire parts/mechanics of their fight [non hm scalecaller end boss is a perfect example, enough dps can have her stuck in a summoning winter storm loop...killing her in seconds]

3: Much like playing the tank[although admittedly nowhere near as bad]...being a healer isn't very..fun or engaging to actually play, which in-turn has led to less healers which leads to people having to learn to cheese dungeons to not need a healer, which further devalues what few healers there are... it's a negative feedback loop.

ccfeeling

Sad to say but there are too many one shot mechanics that we don't really want a healer .

Say for example

VFL HM

Big bone HA is one shot
Ghost Wall is one shot
Golden pad phase , if the teammate can't pick up the 'random' pad , it's one shot
Spiders debuff and the boss non stop bleeding attack combo , almost one shot

ZOS , you nerfed shield and wanna make healer viable ?
I know what , templar + Khope , isn't it ?

SakuraRush

Just a reminder that something killing you because you have 15k health doesn't make it a one shot mechanic.

It's only a one shot mechanic if it kills you regardless of health/resistances/shields.

Actual one shot mechanics are terrible design. High damage that could be mitigated but players choose not to is different.

profundidob16_ESO

Peekachu99 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

start by changing the 1-shots in heavy hitting continous damage that make it virtually impossible to run without a proper dedicated healer no matter how many cp points you got

This still won’t work, since ANY spell/ skill output is tied to maximum resource, so a stam toon popping vigor or a Sorc using matriarch and fully specced for DPS (crit) will still outshine and render useless any healer. I cleared VSP HM, second week it was out with TWO stamina dps (and one magblade). The triple frost giant phase is notorious for wiping groups and we burned it so fast that the boss got animation locked a few times. The dpses’ vigors outhealed anything I’ve ever seen when queuing for that via random or helping out other groups. It was insane. Like 10K ticks on my tank without critting.

Until they separate resource pools from damage/ output, and give healers skills exclusively that other specs don’t have or wouldn’t take, they will remain backbenched.

You're right, I forgot about that. As long as every dps receives the same healing powers (or better) than a dedicated healer it's pointless to move to the next stage of tuning the incoming dmge in favor of dedicated healers.


For comparison I went to play RIFT (the game) over the past weekend -new char without the expansions- and I noticed as a dps warrior all I get is some superlow meaningless hot that virtually makes no difference as you get hammered down. Basically no healing for dps and tanks, period. Guess what, suddenly healers are meaningfull and very wanted people in all group content...

AbysmalGhul

madarame_77 wrote: »

This game is all about dps race. You have to live with it. Although they introduced some mechanics already to ensure that too much dps is not good. If you dps some bosses (WGT for example) too quickly the adds will swarm you. So killing a boss slower is actually safer.

Killing the bosses too fast in the new dungeon Moon hunter keep brings on adds as punishment. Having a slow burn in vet white-gold tower is the punishment.

Royaji

SakuraRush wrote: »

Just a reminder that something killing you because you have 15k health doesn't make it a one shot mechanic.

It's only a one shot mechanic if it kills you regardless of health/resistances/shields.

Actual one shot mechanics are terrible design. High damage that could be mitigated but players choose not to is different.

Most mechanics in the newest dungeons are actual one shots. They will often one shot a blocking tank. Nothing to do with having 15k health

AbysmalGhul

Royaji wrote: »

SakuraRush wrote: »

Just a reminder that something killing you because you have 15k health doesn't make it a one shot mechanic.

It's only a one shot mechanic if it kills you regardless of health/resistances/shields.

Actual one shot mechanics are terrible design. High damage that could be mitigated but players choose not to is different.

Most mechanics in the newest dungeons are actual one shots. They will often one shot a blocking tank. Nothing to do with having 15k health

True. Also, burning bosses like the Archivist too fast is punishment on the tank who has to hold all of those behemoth werewolves that spawn based off of his missing health. It also doesn't help that defile is placed on the tank by the behemoths. Add in bubble shield mechanic and the glyph/ circle mechanic and you have a chaotic disaster for new players trying to complete content.

profundidob16_ESO

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I've run enough pugs where "there is only one shot damage and nothing else" is very very not true. There are one shot mechanics, but they are usually 1-2 per fight <*usually* meant to be a dodge, position check, or mechanic check>.

Examples include:)
HM CoS spike
Poison Statue
The two mechanics on Boss 1 in Scale caller

Remember, if these weren't one shots we would simply ignore and just DPS anyway. It is why you see people that "did scalecaller normal like 10 times" die to the first mechanic. Normal doesn't kill you so why bother? The real issue behind the scenes is that each role DPS/Tank can essentially heal themselves. I have for instance Matriarch which in all purpose is Breath of Life for a DPS with 60K mana. Tanks have <Assuming DK> Green Dragon Blood + major mending built into their own shield. Vigour stacking is another route. You can say "Make them all dots that Do a lot of damage!" Isn't that just a round-a-bout way to make an instant shot, and again. If a healer can heal it. A DPS can. <4 man team>

So if your DPS can essentially heal themselves if they ever get hit by anything, why do you need a "healer" to heal them. Unless those buffs out do the damage provided from a fully geared DPS who cares?


*Note any non DLC vet content doesn't count for balance. DLC are more correctly balanced.

I get your argument, and it's a fair one. But it neglects a few points.

Firstly: healing takes up time and resources. So a DPS or tank having to focus on keeping themselves alive is likely doing less damage as a result. Secondly (and this is especially the case since damage-dealers are likely only to slot a single heal ability for emergencies) they won't have the consistent effects from healing over time abilities active - which is a lot more efficient for countering general damage.

Having every player come as damage-dealers who heal themselves is viable - and maybe even preferable - on easier content where DPS checks are the only concern. On more difficult content though where general damage is more threatening I'm skeptical this strategy would be more effective than a balanced team with a healer.

The flaw here is ESO requires DPS to be active in keeping themselves alive. While a dodge roll here and there or having to cast a shield does reduce DPS, this game has many one shots the healer obviously cannot heal through and many hard hitting mechanics that the reaction time for healers is not fast enough.

From the day this game went live if a DPS died it was often their fault, not the healer.

you nailed it here. The design flaw is that ZOS tied healing directly to the DPS skills which allows players to do both roles maximized and efficient at the same time.

if ZOS would remove autohealing from all dps skills so healing would only become possible through the activation of dedicated separate healing skills which all as a side-effect would put a "healing sickness" debuff on the caster that nullifies any outgoing dps for the next 5 seconds it would be a different game...Then you could still emergency heal yourself but it would kill your dps

mocap

Inarre wrote: »

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

despite you are joking, for me it's way better to see dd/healer, casting BoL from time to time.
I hate healers who:
- spam orbs for absolutely no reason;
- spam springs creating stupidly high overhealing;
- use mutagen to create more overhealing. Some players even spam this skill (facepalm);

So i prefer to support my random mates with 25-30k dps, rather than heal them to death. And yes, i still heal them if they got oneshot (but didn't die) from almost 0% hp to 100% with one BoL cast.

AbysmalGhul

I like being self sufficient when I play this game. I rarely trust healers because most of them are terrible at healing. The mechanics in these new hardmodes are really dependent on a fast burn or it's a RIP. That's why my group doesn't bring a healer on HMs like Fang Lair or Moon Hunter keep. A healer won't burn down the crystal and the never ending supply of bone colossus adds spawning from them while dodge rolling heavy attacks or evading one-shot mechanics during the FL HM.

As a matter of fact, ZOS keeps raising the bar of intensity for these new dlc dungeons, but now they want to lower the ability to survive at the same time. I'm stunned

Izaki

Uviryth wrote: »

Dungeons in this game are all sorts of messed up.
Can anyone PLEASE tell Zenimax that oneshot-mechanics are NOT good dungeondesign?

Here's the thing though. There are very few one-shot mechanics in the game. And every single one of them is avoidable. If you don't avoid it, well, L2P. And by avoid I mean: step out of the red, dodge, block, do the actual mechanic properly, etc.

kylewwefan

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have a healer toon also. And I Pug a lot. Extra damage is better. And if you’re good enough....you can also heal at the same time!

I’m all the time getting stuck in these groups with atrocious DPS. I used to have the mentality that I was just a healer on this toon. But then I learned how to play a little differently.

Hope you have a chance to get there one day. It took me a bit longer than it should have. You’ll figure it out. Gl

I would have agreed with you but with that little condescending bit at the end there, I have to ask.. How did you manage to come to the conclusion that only your way was the right way and everyone else is wrong or oblivious? Genuinely interested since I've completed a number of dlc hardmodes in pugs and clearly I don't know what I'm doing since I didn't dps on my healer

Have you ever been in banished cells or elden hollow or any relatively easy dungeon; and the DPS is wrecking blow spam, caltrops light attack whatever craptastic rotation they can muster. And it takes forever for them to kill stuff. The “damage dealers” might have 25k health and rocking heavy armor and won’t avoid damage no matter what.

I get this kind of group all the time. It really blows when all I could do is sit back and let them slug their way through at a snails pace. I can’t buff or debuff anything worthwhile enough to make this any better of an experience. But if my healer is set up different, I can add significant enough damage to make up for their lacking.

In the same light, when you get in a group where they’re melting everything and damage is very high and they don’t need much healing; you feel like you’re practically getting carried along and could do things differently. Few tanks are ever going to be able to add significant damage. They can buff and debuff better than you can. But a healer....you have options.

Pugging Vet DLC Hardmode is not going to be accomplished because healing is so OP, but because the DD and tank are good already.

FatFred

Some tank&dps builds have very strong self-healing abilities , but "no healer needed" only works in low-intensity fights.

TheGreatBlackBear

Vahrokh wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

personally i find systems that punish playing bad but do not reward playing good disgusting.
i also find it disgusting when "learn the mechanics" equals "hit the trainingdummy until u can pull 50k selfbuffed".

I could not agree more. Mechanics are part of this game. Its a way to keep the content interesting and not make it an all-out button masher. Not saying everything has to be the MHK werewolf, that f*&%*$ng deer in MOS, or the Twins in vMOL (yes, I know its not a dungeon...). Seems the DLC dungeons have focused not on slowing down the burn, but putting in some mechanics that get in the way at slotted intervals.

But, at the same time I am fine with having dungeons that reward fast burn. There has to be some incentive to continue to advance your character. Feels like we have a good mix of both

Forgotten in the OP is the fact that not everyone who plays is a CP780 with 50K DD. There are players who still need a healer to get through dungeons.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

A vet DLC dungeon is the very best the game has to offer; it requires top level stats, sets and skills.

My position stands.


I'm burnt out from low DPS apologists. (Not that you're one) You don't need 50K DPS or 780 CP but if you're in a vet DLC dungeon 40K plus per DPS is my minimum expectation if we realistically expect to clear in a timely manner. If not there's any other vet dungeon or normal DLC.

40k plus is what progression trial guilds ask in order to join them.
Aren't we a bit restrictive here?

Lol. Perhaps. The 40K dps is probably a bit high, but seeing that its just two dps better safe than sorry. And for what it's worth (probably nothing) I've wiped/had group disbanded more on vet dlc dungeons than on trials.

mocap wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

despite you are joking, for me it's way better to see dd/healer, casting BoL from time to time.
I hate healers who:
- spam orbs for absolutely no reason;
- spam springs creating stupidly high overhealing;
- use mutagen to create more overhealing. Some players even spam this skill (facepalm);

So i prefer to support my random mates with 25-30k dps, rather than heal them to death. And yes, i still heal them if they got oneshot (but didn't die) from almost 0% hp to 100% with one BoL cast.

I'll have to disagree with you there. On all points.
I "spam" orbs so my teammates can restore resources from the synergy, keep up their shields, keep up their burst and DoTs continue to sprint and not die after being hit with every CC known to man. Oh, the tank can proc Alkosh.

I "spam" springs because it's the easiest way to reliably proc and place Olorime. And given that at any time the DPS are spread out from each other (or at laest they are in the groups I find myself in) that's a springs every ten seconds. DPS 1 DPS 2 Tank Me. I go in that order. And given that Olorime lasts for 30 seconds I could in all honestly just spend my entire time "creating stupidly high overhealing" as you so eloquently put it.

i don't use mutagen; I use rapid regeneration. But please me why you wouldn't want a permanent HoT on your teammates. You'd rather a bleed perhaps? As for mutagen it's paramount to keep it up at all times because it's a safety net for any person hit with an attack that's not a one shot. (Yes they exist). Furthermore, overhealing is literally how you proc Spell Power Cure. So there's still utility in that. Casting breath of life from time to time doesn't make you a healer. Just a maagplar. (In my opinion)

Agenericname

mocap wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Yeah I hate healers that come to dungeons expecting to heal too, thinking their stupid shards and drain actually supports the team. Ridiculous! They should be dpsing instead. That's how us real healers do it.

despite you are joking, for me it's way better to see dd/healer, casting BoL from time to time.
I hate healers who:
- spam orbs for absolutely no reason;
- spam springs creating stupidly high overhealing;
- use mutagen to create more overhealing. Some players even spam this skill (facepalm);

So i prefer to support my random mates with 25-30k dps, rather than heal them to death. And yes, i still heal them if they got oneshot (but didn't die) from almost 0% hp to 100% with one BoL cast.

When I'm playing my DD I love seeing orbs. Mutagen, healing springs, bol, I dont care, but I like seeing SPC proc.

Atzepan

As far as i can see, can Zenimax only do one out of two thing or they need a redesign of the whole game. The choice would be either A ) punish high DPS or B ) Force group Play.

A ) Would be that if the boss got hit with more then 80/90K DPS in the last second you will trigger Enrage mode, an example would be at March of Sacrifice that the last boss will initiate Hunt phase everytime you enter enrage mode and will get a 5% of full health heal or something and spawn 1 werewolf for every player.
It could also be that for every second you break the enrage phase you get a dot that raise in intensity since vigot self heal easy can reach 4k heal per second so i would have to really fast out DPS the heal.
Trigger 10% of DPS reflected to every group member bey 100 K DPS with 3 DPS would mean self kill in 2 second maybe 3.

B ) Be would be forcing plays:
If you enter a dungeon/trial and there the one marked as tank does not have a taunt up the group get Major Uncertainty > -20% or more Critical Rating lost
If the char marked as Healer doesn't use 2 different restoration staff skill every 10 seconds the Group gets Major Maim > 30% Damage Reduction.
If the DPS hasn't Crit in the last 2 seconds Group get Major Enervate > 35% loss of Critical Damage.

You could reward players for do their Job:
If Healer uses 2 different resto staff heals > DD gets Major Protection
If DD Crit in the last 2 second, the tank gets Empower/Major Berserk
If a Taunt is up healer gets Empower?


A ) would make it very difficult to handle since some DD reach +50k DPS so two of them might trigger the Enrage, but on the other side Light attack weave is accepted by the devs since they couldn't remove it, but it still a "glitch", since it isn't teached or introduced ingame. So it would be a way to force player out of LA weave.

B ) This would force a lot since not having the healer do his job would, would mean most of the DPS from a third DD would disappear with major maim. And not having a taunt up an getting major Uncertainty or an effect that makes the group loose 20% Critical Rating, would mean DD slotting for tank would reduce a lot of DPS.

That's some of my suggestion to make healer and tank more important.

Inarre

kylewwefan wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have a healer toon also. And I Pug a lot. Extra damage is better. And if you’re good enough....you can also heal at the same time!

I’m all the time getting stuck in these groups with atrocious DPS. I used to have the mentality that I was just a healer on this toon. But then I learned how to play a little differently.

Hope you have a chance to get there one day. It took me a bit longer than it should have. You’ll figure it out. Gl

I would have agreed with you but with that little condescending bit at the end there, I have to ask.. How did you manage to come to the conclusion that only your way was the right way and everyone else is wrong or oblivious? Genuinely interested since I've completed a number of dlc hardmodes in pugs and clearly I don't know what I'm doing since I didn't dps on my healer

Have you ever been in banished cells or elden hollow or any relatively easy dungeon; and the DPS is wrecking blow spam, caltrops light attack whatever craptastic rotation they can muster. And it takes forever for them to kill stuff. The “damage dealers” might have 25k health and rocking heavy armor and won’t avoid damage no matter what.

I get this kind of group all the time. It really blows when all I could do is sit back and let them slug their way through at a snails pace. I can’t buff or debuff anything worthwhile enough to make this any better of an experience. But if my healer is set up different, I can add significant enough damage to make up for their lacking.

In the same light, when you get in a group where they’re melting everything and damage is very high and they don’t need much healing; you feel like you’re practically getting carried along and could do things differently. Few tanks are ever going to be able to add significant damage. They can buff and debuff better than you can. But a healer....you have options.

Pugging Vet DLC Hardmode is not going to be accomplished because healing is so OP, but because the DD and tank are good already.

Sure I've been in PUG groups where my 25k dps on a healer is 80% of group damage. I think everyone has those groups in the group finder, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the "norm" or that how you play when in those groups should be your default play style as a healer.

And in instances where the dps are melting everything that is exactly where you can give the most benefit through debuffs to your team. For example, 8% increased damage from combat prayer is much bigger on 50k dps than it is on 11k. If you have two 50k dps that's like doing 8k dps just from casting one buff that also heals and gives resistances. That's not mentioning major courage, orbs, buffs, drain, off balance, war horn, purify or even healing. A healers job is full and varied if you choose to play that way and the benefits to DPS and tank outweigh whatever parse you will manage on a character built for healing. If I swap to a full damage setup (minus cp and mundus) I can do about 25k dps on my healer. That can't compare to what I can add to my dps' damage by buffing them and providing support while keeping them alive.

If you're implying I get carried when I PUG heal dlc vet hardmodes because "the tank and dps are good enough without you" I encourage you to watch a few videos of hard mode dlc content. I can guarantee you that you're misled, especially on the newer DLC dungeons.

I think this is a good example of my points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-78nbYTFz1g
This is a recording of a PUG Falkreath HM. This group failed multiple times before this recording (as you can see by the chat at the end where we joke about it.) The beginning also opens to the tank chatting in voice about how low resources he was and how many tripots hed burned trying to stay alive, indicating that he needed more support. In this video I slotted an execute skill to help dps in the burn phase (total group dps was 45k and we had two melee characters which rendered certain phases no-dmg periods)... Except when I used that execute skill I did what, like 3k damage and one of my dps almost died. In hindsight this was a bad choice and I should have thrown more support to my tank so he could soak up more of the adds damage. The first part of the dungeon seems fine and dandy like i'm not doing anything for most part except directing my team to pillars and laying down olorime. Its half way through when I die, take a second to shield, or start executing instead of healing that my teams health starts to plummet or people die. My tank was busy holding adds and aggro from the boss, you're telling me he could burst heal the cooking vampire dps without me there? Not so sure about that.

Yes, absolutely in the classic 3dps 1 tank scenario where your team are all members of a trials guild and can blow through a dungeon with 200k group dps and know the mechanics blind and deaf it makes sense to play a dedicated DPS character, I've been there done that. But it never makes sense to dps on a character built for healing (because you can offer more to the team on a character built for dps if you are dpsing unless the team is exceptionally low dps). In PUG groups where your dps isn't top notch and people dont know to kite flame aoes your healing and buffing is paramount to the groups success. The fact you believe healers are that useless tells me you either don't understand buffing/debuffing or you have exceptionally terrible luck in PUGs.

Next time you notice your group dps over 80k in a PUG group, ask your dps if they would rather you dps or give them SPC/combat prayer/orbs/drain. Id say 9 times out of ten, if your dps has any sense, the answer is going to be support. When running as a dps myself my mind silently implodes when I watch my healer jabsing the boss for that juicy 10k deeps when it has no elemental drain on it.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Wrong. Every 4 man HM in the game is simply better completed with one sustain tank and 3 DPS—I say this from personal and practical experience completing the achieves, skins and such on two platforms. This will not change in Nerfmire, it will just reinforce the composition since damage is slightly less avoidable, therefore you definitely want to kill them before they kill you. The longer a fight goes on, the greater the margin for error. No amount of healing will save or help you for most of the one-shot mechanics ZoS has introduced, either, so mechanical efficiency and flat out burn to avoid statistical incompetence will always trump 1/1/2 party comps.

Healers have a definite place in Trials and PVP, but they’re worthless in most other content.

This.

It's either 1 shot mechanics or burn.

Wanna make healers etc useful? Mechanics that make the battle easier.

A pure DPS burning should be possible but take *gasp" longer than if interactive mechanics were used.

Wanna just burn adds, that's cool, add a mechanics is kill adds in a specific order and boss loses 1/4th health, that way mindless burn takes longer, smart burn is quick, and less skilled players can kill specific adds to be as quick or quicker than a burn everything run - things like that.

As long as it's just 1 shots or do checks/bypass mechanics, it'll just be dps (for 4 man dlc vet etc)

If you've seen the episode of American Dad where Steve's character is dead and they need a gem to save him, the line, "they always put in a way to win these" needs to be applicable to ESO

start by changing the 1-shots in heavy hitting continous damage that make it virtually impossible to run without a proper dedicated healer no matter how many cp points you got

This still won’t work, since ANY spell/ skill output is tied to maximum resource, so a stam toon popping vigor or a Sorc using matriarch and fully specced for DPS (crit) will still outshine and render useless any healer. I cleared VSP HM, second week it was out with TWO stamina dps (and one magblade). The triple frost giant phase is notorious for wiping groups and we burned it so fast that the boss got animation locked a few times. The dpses’ vigors outhealed anything I’ve ever seen when queuing for that via random or helping out other groups. It was insane. Like 10K ticks on my tank without critting.

Until they separate resource pools from damage/ output, and give healers skills exclusively that other specs don’t have or wouldn’t take, they will remain backbenched.

You're right, I forgot about that. As long as every dps receives the same healing powers (or better) than a dedicated healer it's pointless to move to the next stage of tuning the incoming dmge in favor of dedicated healers.


For comparison I went to play RIFT (the game) over the past weekend -new char without the expansions- and I noticed as a dps warrior all I get is some superlow meaningless hot that virtually makes no difference as you get hammered down. Basically no healing for dps and tanks, period. Guess what, suddenly healers are meaningfull and very wanted people in all group content...

I used to be in one of the top raiding guilds in Rift (granted it was in decline while I was playing). One of the few things Rift did really well was core combat design. Balance is another story, especially towards the end, but they got the formula very, very right. If ESO had Rift's combat, I could honestly just play ESO without caring about much else until the servers shut down.

Anyway, you're right in pointing out how little self healing warriors have. Warriors can basically only keep themselves alive in current content with very high level raid-tier gear, or having gimmicky hybrid builds. During questing / leveling up in Rift, you're pretty much required to carry around a few stacks of healing food because most specs need to heal every few pulls. There are some exceptions, like pet specs and cleric shaman, but most DPS classes basically can't keep themselves alive. That's the main way you make healers relevant, by severely limiting self-healing.

The problem is that, the way ESO is structured, overland mobs have relatively high damage output compared to Rift and are often in groups of 2 or 3. For new players, they struggle with these scenarios. Solo content almost demands strong self-healing, especially VMA and certain parts of certain dungeons and trials where you're separated from your healer by design. Rift doesn't really have any high level solo content, and what little they do have has outside sources of healing, like random healing npcs or healing aoe spots.

If you really want healers to become relevant in ESO, you need to remove most self-healing / survivability options for DPS players while at the same time re-tuning solo content to require less self-healing and survivability. Endgame encounter design needs to shift away from AoE bullet hells and separating the group and towards outgoing unavoidable damage and damaging curses / debuffs.

Jeremy

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

SakuraRush wrote: »

Just a reminder that something killing you because you have 15k health doesn't make it a one shot mechanic.

It's only a one shot mechanic if it kills you regardless of health/resistances/shields.

Actual one shot mechanics are terrible design. High damage that could be mitigated but players choose not to is different.

Most mechanics in the newest dungeons are actual one shots. They will often one shot a blocking tank. Nothing to do with having 15k health

True. Also, burning bosses like the Archivist too fast is punishment on the tank who has to hold all of those behemoth werewolves that spawn based off of his missing health. It also doesn't help that defile is placed on the tank by the behemoths. Add in bubble shield mechanic and the glyph/ circle mechanic and you have a chaotic disaster for new players trying to complete content.

The behemoths also frequently use an AoE attack that one-shots players as well. But I have a hard time imagining anyone suggesting healers are useless on that fight. in my experience - most tanks I've done that fight with need my healing - and lots of it. That's a rare tank who is able to do that fight without a healer. I'm not saying they aren't out there. But they aren't common.

Jeremy

FatFred wrote: »

Some tank&dps builds have very strong self-healing abilities , but "no healer needed" only works in low-intensity fights.

Agreed.

It's very situational.

El_Borracho

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If you really want healers to become relevant in ESO, you need to remove most self-healing / survivability options for DPS players while at the same time re-tuning solo content to require less self-healing and survivability. Endgame encounter design needs to shift away from AoE bullet hells and separating the group and towards outgoing unavoidable damage and damaging curses / debuffs.

Not picking nits, but why would anyone want to be a DPS if you have little to no survivability or self-healing? Wouldn't that turn multiple classes into glass cannons? The reason why people don't run certain armor sets in this game is because they are dependent on another person activating a synergy. You would extend that to all damage dealers? I could not imagine running a character whose only way to stay alive in a dungeon, let alone a trial, would be through the ability of another player to keep them alive.

This whole idea that healers are being phased out is severely overblown. The 1 tank/3 DPS setup is entirely situational. As in who the tank and the DPS are and what is the content. When I was a level 300, I needed a healer to get through a lot of dungeons that I can now plow through with a 1 tank/3 DPS crew. Healers are still preferred in a lot of DLC and no death run dungeons.

Similarly, I know of many healers who need to get with competent DPS crews in order to learn how to effectively heal when they get to harder content. Stripping those DPS of self-healing and survivability should go over real well there

TheGreatBlackBear

Self-healing is definitely too strong atm. However I don't think this dev team is capable (on past experience) to treat with the situation in a thoughtful and nuanced manner.