No one asked for these speed changes

Trancestor
Trancestor
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Nobody complained about speed being OP before Swift was a thing, now you nerfed Swift, good, that was a needed change, but why for the hate of ZOS did you have to touch major expedition? 4 seconds on bird of prey, a skill mainly used by magdens who already have the worst mobility, same with magdks nerf to chains, because everyone was totally crying all the time "these darn magdks are too damn fast", now next week you will probably make speed pots last for 15 seconds and nobody will use them anymore, yeah don't do that, just don't. You are only buffing zergs and making solo/small scale play even more of a pain in the ass.
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    Obviously they had to nerf more than just Swift as long as Swift remains a speed buff as it still provides additional speed.

    If you assume speed pre-Swift was fine, then in order to achieve this level of speed post-Swift you will have to take away the additional speed granted by Swift from something else.

    But I agree, the issue was stam builds and mag builds with their low mobility got hit especially hard and this should not have happened.

    They should simple have made Swift into a substitute rather than a complement speed buff. Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    Put Swift jewelry on the Major/Minor system and problem solved.

    That gives options for a source of Speed sliw buikds and stops already fast builds from boosting even higher
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe
    Maz Challenger, Shadow Challenger, Faulkreath Challenger, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
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    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord
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    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    The entire mobility system in relation to movement speed and snares is in dire need of a rework. With the way it currently works, you are either moving at lightning speed, or you've got umpteen snares on you to the point where you're moving slower than a snail. That's the whole reason Forward Momentum is a thing.

    Put snares on the Major/Minor system to prevent stacking like this, rework all non-cc skills that apply snares to only apply Minor at the least, then rework movement speed and snare immunity to accommodate this.
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No, they didn't. What needed to happen was magicka needed their own version.
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 910+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
  • brandonv516
    brandonv516
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    _Ahala_ wrote: »
    That Bird of Prey change is absolutely unacceptable and needs to be reverted for the sake of balance

    The problem is it really helps Stamdens more if they revert it and they don't need any help.
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    _Ahala_ wrote: »
    That Bird of Prey change is absolutely unacceptable and needs to be reverted for the sake of balance

    The problem is it really helps Stamdens more if they revert it and they don't need any help.

    StamDen arent in need of a nerf. Yes they are strong, but StamNB and StamSorc are stronger.
    StamDen just needed left alone.
    The problem is ZoS isnt frigging thinking. They could have buffed MagDen easily through the Piecing Cold passive. That passive would have buffed Fissure, Swam, and Screaming all at once without effecting StamDen at all. Then if they just made one morph of Swarm stamina based, there is the little extra damage that PvE StamDen needed to be pushed back into competitive. (along with the Shalks cost reduction)

    Murkmire has just been all about making massive sweeping changes to distract everyone one from balance issues, instead of small adjustments to make everyone fall in line together.
    ZoS start adjusting things be only 1-2% at a time. That's how you stop the 15k DPS difference between top and bottom builds

    Shields should have been add Crit, add Resistance, add Cast time, not all frigging 3
    Speed should be nerf, Named Buffs, nerf Swift (other non Buff system), or nerf Immunity skills, not all frigging 3
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe
    Maz Challenger, Shadow Challenger, Faulkreath Challenger, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
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    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    The entire mobility system in relation to movement speed and snares is in dire need of a rework. With the way it currently works, you are either moving at lightning speed, or you've got umpteen snares on you to the point where you're moving slower than a snail. That's the whole reason Forward Momentum is a thing.

    Put snares on the Major/Minor system to prevent stacking like this, rework all non-cc skills that apply snares to only apply Minor at the least, then rework movement speed and snare immunity to accommodate this.
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No, they didn't. What needed to happen was magicka needed their own version.

    Except that snares dont stack. You are only effected by what ever the strongest one on you is. Now if thats Caltrops, Frost Blockade, Eruption, thats still pretty huge
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe
    Maz Challenger, Shadow Challenger, Faulkreath Challenger, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Trancestor
    Trancestor
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    Only very few people will use Swift now after that nerf so it's better to just replace that trait completely and revert all these dumb major expedition changes, revert FM nerf or at least make it 6 seconds, reduce SHUFFLE COST and make it 4 seconds snare immunity.
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly walking around a corner. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    Welcome to the non-stam build club.
    As for speed: slot an ability like the rest of us has to. It's OP that you have to spam skills frequently to keep your speed buff up, but you only have to use your pot once. That gives you an unfair advantge in terms of available global cooldowns. And that is on top of the sprinting, break-free, and dodge roll benefits stam-builds already have over magicka builds let alone their immunity to snares and roots.
  • kind_hero
    kind_hero
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    Totally disagree with the reduction of the duration of certain buffs, like major expedition from sets, boundless storm, shield nerf, and so on. This is mainly because the solo play, like exploration and questing becomes boring with these changes. Why do you need a speed buff that lasts 8 seconds in the open world? You need to mash keys constantly just to reapply some buffs for normal play. I don't think I am going to play magicka sorc anymore as it is because some abilities will just not be fun or rewarding to use for solo play.

    I will probably spec to stamina and use a copy paste melee/bow build that has no class flavour whatsoever, because it seems this is the trend. Instead of having a magicka class that is a mage, plays like mage and feels like a mage, we get a glass cannon which is mostly a glass water pistol with little water.

    For PvP, you have non-CP mode. So there are ways to have different game settings for pvp. Keep these changes for PvP, arenas or wherever things are unbalanced, but do not nerf the whole class gameplay because some classes outperform in a competitive setting.
    @ kind.hero (PC/EU) cp750+ DC Sephala, Breton nightblade, DC April Dawn, Breton magicka sorcerer
    All the rare dyes pictured post
  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    Put snares on the Major/Minor system to prevent stacking like this, rework all non-cc skills that apply snares to only apply Minor at the least, then rework movement speed and snare immunity to accommodate this.
    I like this idea.
    Although it feels very forced and game mechanic focused making more things fall under the buff/debuff system with minor and major would make the game a lot easier to balance.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly walking around a corner. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    Welcome to the non-stam build club.
    As for speed: slot an ability like the rest of us has to. It's OP that you have to spam skills frequently to keep your speed buff up, but you only have to use your pot once. That gives you an unfair advantge in terms of available global cooldowns. And that is on top of the sprinting, break-free, and dodge roll benefits stam-builds already have over magicka builds let alone their immunity to snares and roots.

    Just give us magicka speed pot then. No need to kill stamina Builds only cause magicka Builds cant have their mobility.

    Even tho, magicka builds wont benefit this much from speed pots then stamina does. Stam builds can sprint more but if they are out of stam =no heal ,no damage, no block, no dodge roll.

    When magicka builds are out of stam its dangerous too but they can still heal or deal damage.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    Trancestor wrote: »
    Only very few people will use Swift now after that nerf so it's better to just replace that trait completely and revert all these dumb major expedition changes, revert FM nerf or at least make it 6 seconds, reduce SHUFFLE COST and make it 4 seconds snare immunity.

    Shuffle should grant greater snare immunity than Forward Momentum. This is non-negotiable. A cheap as balls skill that is available to anybody running 2H should not be more valuable or more effective than an expensive as balls skill that requires 5 medium pieces to be worn.

    The entire Evasion skill needs to be reworked, as well as snares, as I outlined in my last comment. Shuffle should grant the longest snare immunity duration, both for what I said above, and the fact that medium should have the best mobility out of the three armour weights.

    Extending that mindset, replace the AOE reduction with something else, preferably something that benefits mobility. AOE reduction is nice, but it can already be provided by other, better, skills, and it just doesn't match medium thematically. Whether it be a reduction on roll cost, reduction on sprint cost, a short immunity to all CC, Minor Expedition for a period of time, something, it should be related to mobility.
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 910+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
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    I believe this change is wrong

    First clas rep meeting reported people are tired of snares and being immobile.... they reduced snare duration and now they reduce speed snare immunity duration...
  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly Running around a tree. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    I fixed that for ya ; )

    Which btw is the most annoying thing unless you just happen to have a root on your bar to counter. Which also means the target gets immunity if not dead shortly after the root breaks. Which makes for crappy PvP gameplay and always has. Not to mention the problem with many skills that can't connect because the target just moves away. Perfect example, uppercut. Made pretty much useless by speed changes.

    ZoS is trying to make changes to level the field, but they're using a axe to peel an apple instead of a pearing knife =(
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    Trancestor wrote: »
    Only very few people will use Swift now after that nerf so it's better to just replace that trait completely and revert all these dumb major expedition changes, revert FM nerf or at least make it 6 seconds, reduce SHUFFLE COST and make it 4 seconds snare immunity.

    Shuffle should grant greater snare immunity than Forward Momentum. This is non-negotiable. A cheap as balls skill that is available to anybody running 2H should not be more valuable or more effective than an expensive as balls skill that requires 5 medium pieces to be worn.

    The entire Evasion skill needs to be reworked, as well as snares, as I outlined in my last comment. Shuffle should grant the longest snare immunity duration, both for what I said above, and the fact that medium should have the best mobility out of the three armour weights.

    Extending that mindset, replace the AOE reduction with something else, preferably something that benefits mobility. AOE reduction is nice, but it can already be provided by other, better, skills, and it just doesn't match medium thematically. Whether it be a reduction on roll cost, reduction on sprint cost, a short immunity to all CC, Minor Expedition for a period of time, something, it should be related to mobility.

    I agree with your point on FM and wearing 5 medium armor. However, have to disagree with the mobility part. Light should be the best for mobility because it's the least encumbrance on a player. (yes, I know this game doesn't use that, but you get what I mean)
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • Maura_Neysa
    Maura_Neysa
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    @Dreyloch
    - Uppercut isn't useless, it just requires more skill
    - Following a Stamina to the tree is as stupid as the stamina following you to the open field. People need to stop crying about people playing smart.
    - I do agree with the FM change, and that Shuffle should be the best option. Say 4 sec and 6? (3/5, etc)
    - The Evasion change is.... I mean AoE are the only thing I cant dodge.So this buff makes sense. And while there are other sources, this will stack with them.
    - Light Armor is the least cumbersomeness, so it makes sense that you have good movement speed, but medium should have the lowest cost to things like dodge roll and break free. After all you dont have to worry about your robes getting tangled in medium.
    Maiden Maura - Xbox NA
    Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe
    Maz Challenger, Shadow Challenger, Faulkreath Challenger, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
    Major
    Dragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,
    Warden 2x Bow DPS
    Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord
    Others
    PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt

    Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.


  • Crixus8000
    Crixus8000
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly walking around a corner. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    Welcome to the non-stam build club.
    As for speed: slot an ability like the rest of us has to. It's OP that you have to spam skills frequently to keep your speed buff up, but you only have to use your pot once. That gives you an unfair advantge in terms of available global cooldowns. And that is on top of the sprinting, break-free, and dodge roll benefits stam-builds already have over magicka builds let alone their immunity to snares and roots.

    Yes I am aware magicka has less or no options for that, it doesn't change anything though, then buff magicka instead.

    And what skill can I spam to get major expedition 100% of the time ? No amount of recovery would allow me to do that and play a proper build.
    Dreyloch wrote: »
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly Running around a tree. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    I fixed that for ya ; )

    Which btw is the most annoying thing unless you just happen to have a root on your bar to counter. Which also means the target gets immunity if not dead shortly after the root breaks. Which makes for crappy PvP gameplay and always has. Not to mention the problem with many skills that can't connect because the target just moves away. Perfect example, uppercut. Made pretty much useless by speed changes.

    ZoS is trying to make changes to level the field, but they're using a axe to peel an apple instead of a pearing knife =(

    If a solo player is running around a tree though it's usually because they are being chased by a try hard group of many people, so I don't see why the solo player should be the one punished by having to move very slowly.

    But Yes I agree speed is a problem, Like I have said before I use a controller with dizzy swing, trying to land that on speedy players is a nightmare :) but I have tried without the speed pot too and I also can't hit anything, moving slow makes it hard to land stuff too.

    I just don't think people was too fast before swift. The nerf to forward and swift I'm fine with, but nerfing speed skills just hurts magicka too and doesn't solve anything imo, and nerfing speed pots really hurts stamina solo play. And to magicka players saying it's not fair why not ask for a decent speed pot option instead of taking them all away from the game.
    Edited by Crixus8000 on October 5, 2018 3:55AM
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    Major expedition is and always will be the most powerful buff in pvp. These changes are good, people won't have a problem if they learn to keep their buffs up. #l2p-issue
  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    PathwayM wrote: »
    Major expedition is and always will be the most powerful buff in pvp. These changes are good, people won't have a problem if they learn to keep their buffs up. #l2p-issue

    Learn to keep their buffs up? :hushed: Its not hard to keep up Expedition, its so obvious when it falls off, even with out PC Dummyproofing Add-ons. But at 4 seconds thats 3-4k mag every 4 seconds. That's all of even a Mag builds recovery. Say MagDen who is gutted by this since movement is vital to line up Fissure.

    The L2P issue was learning to hit fast targets. Not Learning to cast a buff every 4 seconds

    The L2p issue is realizing you don't need 100% uptime and bursting the skill when necessary.
  • dwemer_paleologist
    dwemer_paleologist
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    Trancestor wrote: »
    ... why for the hate of ZOS did you have to touch ...
    the answer to that question is because people keep spamming Nerf Request threads.
    and in responce zenimax balances everything else to compensate.
    that cycle will never end, because people on this forum will never stop asking for nerfs.

    please increase sneak speeds.
    playing since beta 2013
    PC NA

  • evoniee
    evoniee
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    Nerf swift and major expedition source but do not touch forward momentum.
  • Tarrocan
    Tarrocan
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    Zos delete all the fun out of this game :) good that I don't play anymore. Just nerf anything lol
    AD Grim Killer / MagNB
    AD Nautilus / MagSorc
    AD 'Della Grant / MagTemplar
    AD Iba / StamNB
    AD Tarrocan / StamTemplar
    AD 'Tarrocan / StamSorc
    AD -Tarrocan / StamDK
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    AD 'General Degree / MagDK
    AD Desi Roots / MagWarden
  • Trancestor
    Trancestor
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    PathwayM wrote: »
    PathwayM wrote: »
    Major expedition is and always will be the most powerful buff in pvp. These changes are good, people won't have a problem if they learn to keep their buffs up. #l2p-issue

    Learn to keep their buffs up? :hushed: Its not hard to keep up Expedition, its so obvious when it falls off, even with out PC Dummyproofing Add-ons. But at 4 seconds thats 3-4k mag every 4 seconds. That's all of even a Mag builds recovery. Say MagDen who is gutted by this since movement is vital to line up Fissure.

    The L2P issue was learning to hit fast targets. Not Learning to cast a buff every 4 seconds

    The L2p issue is realizing you don't need 100% uptime and bursting the skill when necessary.

    If you were a solo player you would know how important it is to have major expedition up all the time, unless you are a stupid tank build good luck outhealing 3+ players tryharding you. "L2P and keep your buffs up" well next patch that's not possible because not every class even has a major expedition buff and those who do it will kill their sustain having to recast an ability every 4 seconds, use brain pls.
    Edited by Trancestor on October 5, 2018 8:31AM
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    Gnozo wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Though the speed pots are either way in a serious need of a nerf!

    No they aren't. Without them solo play will be over for many builds. How do you survive on your own when 4+ players are chasing you with porc sets ? You use los, that will be hard to do when slowly walking around a corner. There is other ways they could handle this but nerfing speed pots is just a massive, destroying nerf to solo 1vx play, and it's already hard enough.

    Welcome to the non-stam build club.
    As for speed: slot an ability like the rest of us has to. It's OP that you have to spam skills frequently to keep your speed buff up, but you only have to use your pot once. That gives you an unfair advantge in terms of available global cooldowns. And that is on top of the sprinting, break-free, and dodge roll benefits stam-builds already have over magicka builds let alone their immunity to snares and roots.

    Just give us magicka speed pot then. No need to kill stamina Builds only cause magicka Builds cant have their mobility.

    Even tho, magicka builds wont benefit this much from speed pots then stamina does. Stam builds can sprint more but if they are out of stam =no heal ,no damage, no block, no dodge roll.

    When magicka builds are out of stam its dangerous too but they can still heal or deal damage.

    When you are moving so fast that people cannot hit you anymore b/c the game can not keep up with it is time to reduce the speed. So no! Instead of making the game more bugged by allowing magicka builds to be as broken as stamina builds, stamina builds should be brought back in line!

    Besides, even if you were to include speed pots for magicka builds they would never be as strong as they are for stamina builds due to how sprinting works and synergiezes with stamina builds. Therefore, reducing the effectiveness and efficiency of stamina speed pots is the only way to go. It won't solve the issue entirely but it will reduce its adverse effects.
  • DTStormfox
    DTStormfox
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    They didn't nerf speed. They nerfed the abilities that give speed.
    You only have to hit that speed buff ability more often. Which more a nerf to sustain than anything else.

    I am more concerned about the changes with snare immunity, but that is something for another topic.
    Edited by DTStormfox on October 5, 2018 9:45AM
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    evoniee wrote: »
    Nerf swift and major expedition source but do not touch forward momentum.

    B/c it is not OP that stamina builds can completely ignore 2 out of the 3 CC-types (slow, root, stun) in the game.
    How about we make magicka builds immune to stuns and roots?
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