Refreshing Path not good enough in Murkmire, obviously better skill choices

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. WTF?
I'm not casting it at the same time. For one, that's impossible with the global cooldown and animation time. I'm casting Path when it runs out and Wall of Elements when it runs out, if I have both on the bar.

Of course you can't cast them at the same exact time, obviously I meant at the same time in your rotation. Like one after another, as the same time in the rotation. Not sure how you could misunderstand this. Seems intentional that you did.

. Which do you choose if you only have one slot for either Wall of Elements or Twisting Path?

Thing is, you don't choose between them and you will have the room on your bar as a pve DPS. Your back bar will have some like channeled acceleration- syphoning attacks, cripple, wall, flex, ulti soul harvest, front bar, inner light, twisting, impale, grim focus, spammable ulti destro There are no other skills that will get you more DPS as a magblade.

Twisting Path is only used if there is nothing better than that to use in that skill slot and in that amount of time and enemies will be in the field long enough for it to not feel wasted.

Twisting path is always used on a pve magblade DPS. To not use it is a dps loss. Have you ever dpsed? Or would be if you want the best DPS. Right now refreshing is like a 25% DPS loss on one skill, which translates to like an overall loss of around 1-3% but the group survivability utility of refreshing path makes that an acceptable loss. A lot of the time when I DPS on my magblade right now, I am doing 40% of the group healing with just funnel and refreshing, like 10k hps, AND doing 35k DPS.

. Refreshing Path is the same and is nerfed into being much less worth slotting than many other skills so that it doesn't have a place on the limited bar.

Refreshing path right now is arguably the best class based ground based aoe, simply because of the healing AND the DPS is so good. Next patch, nb healers will get a buff, as the healing from refreshing will be going up, to match the damage that twisting gets. Which is higher right now then the healing on refreshing. AND all your team gets major expedition for standing in it and for and for a time after leaving. If you think that nb healers won't be running this skill, you are crazy.

.First, orbs move.

Yes they do. On the ground. And they heal/damage in an aoe.

That's a whole different mechanic that "ground placed". In fact, they don't have a location choice circle.

You are right again that they don't have a location circle but they do move in the same ground based location, in a straight line for like ~20 meters. Doing AOE heals/damage the whole time. Not so different as you are trying to make them out to be.

. They're not easy to stack on the same spot like Grand Healing to have as much simultaneous healing power .

Statements like continue to show you have no idea how healing works in this game. Since energy orbs tick every .5 seconds, it is quite easy to shoot out 3 in a row and get the same amount of healing as springs. The reason you don't is that the cost is ~25% higher than springs. Because of the synergy. Making it harder to maintain. Usually in trial healing, your springs will be number 1 and orbs will be number 2.

. Second, I think I'm going to argue for a nerf to Grand Healing because of that. It doesn't work the same as other abilities that are placed on the ground with a targeting circle and is too powerful when stacked. It's causing content to be designed around that boring spam-a-single-skill gameplay that could be the very thing killing off enthusiasm for healing and making hits bigger and more one-shots to compensate for overpowered healing

Yeah, you have never healed in this game.

Don't expect things to stay the same just because they have been forever. Damage shields just got resistance benefit which they never had before. Welcome to "Everything iS changing Online".

You don't have to lecture me about the game not staying the same. I have been here for 4 and half years. My main, a templar healer, has been nerfed over and over. But the the way springs works is the way zos made it for a reason, mass group healing. Just because you seem to have latched on to this false notion that this was not intended, which it very clearly was, does not make it a bug.

Mystrius_Archaion

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Which do you choose if you only have one slot for either Wall of Elements or Twisting Path?

Thing is, you don't choose between them and you will have the room on your bar as a pve DPS.

You assume that I build the same as you do. You're completely wrong.
For one, I never use channeled acceleration because a 1/16th per hit(crits are 50% above normal damage and major force is an extra 10% so 160% versus 150% equals 1/16th benefit) damage boost based on RNG is not worth a slot to me.

I can't properly use 2 bars because of bugs locking out skills and my own carpal-tunnel/arthritis damaged hands. I can't animation cancel properly either. I rely on one bar having things I can activate easily.

I am not the only one who would need to choose between Wall of Elements and Twisting Path, for whatever reasons a person may have, and be forced to obviously choose Wall of Elements as the far more powerful skill and only worthwhile choice in that situation.

I'm done getting pushed into countering your obviously flawed statements that you then accuse me of misunderstanding by saying the same thing in my original post that your flawed statement was in response to.
It's like the old "who's on first" bit, but not funny.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. You assume that I build the same as you do.

The only thing I assumed is that you wanted to get max DPS. You can not get max DPS with only one bar. It is not the games fault you have internet trouble. It is not the games fault that your hands have a disability. The game is balnced around having two bars. The game is balanced around being able to switch between them. This discussion is over if you are going to have put restrictions like this in your build because of course you are going to have to make concessions. Because it is not zos fault for the your personal shortcomings. Something I know all about, I can't weave to save my life as a DPS. So that is like 10-20k DPS right out the window, because of my own failings. But I don't blame zos. You really ought to have said that you could only use one bar in your first post of the thread. Most of what we were talking about could have been avoided.

If I was going to run a magblade is with only one bar, it would look something like this- inner light, sap essence, harness magic, wall, swallow soul, ulti meteor. That gets you everything you need, self heals, a dot, a AOE spammable and a single target spammable. I am genuinely interested what your build looks like.

Also, since you can only use bar, may I recommend this one bar build for sorcerers? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/400833/one-bar-easy-vma-w-video-magsorc-build-for-summerset-no-trial-monster-set-maelstrom-weapon-needed Seems like that would benefit you greatly.

Mystrius_Archaion

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. You assume that I build the same as you do.

The only thing I assumed is that you wanted to get max DPS. You can not get max DPS with only one bar. It is not the games fault you have internet trouble. It is not the games fault that your hands have a disability. The game is balnced around having two bars. The game is balanced around being able to switch between them.

Not anymore.
You get the second bar at level 15. Dungeons and PVP open at level 10 and the entire overland world is available at level 1.
The game is now designed to let people play with their friends anywhere, even if more difficult content requires a bit more.

I just want Twisting Path and Refreshing Path to be competitive worthwhile choices. Refreshing Path, the reason for this thread, is bad now. It was better but has been nerfed to be next to worthless considering the size of it and how much it heals compared to other skills that do similar things. They made it directly comparable to other skills but worse than those other skills.

No matter what your capability is or how you play, if you used Refreshing Path and want to use it then you have to see how it now is very bad compared to how it was.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Not anymore.
You get the second bar at level 15. Dungeons and PVP open at leve 10 and the entire overland world is available at level 1.
The game is now designed to let people play with their friends anywhere, even if more difficult content requires a bit more

When I say "the game" I mean end game. Of course you can do anything with your build in normal dungeons and the overland. You can literally light attack things to death in both. Your build does not matter at all in either. The fact that wall does more damage then path means nothing in either. Things die so fast. The build I gave you would get you through all that content, without using pots or switching bars. I ask again, what does your one bar look like?

.I just want Twisting Path and Refreshing Path to be competitive worthwhile choices.

Again, thing is, they are, just not in the way you have to play. Do not mistake the way you play with the way the game is balanced to play. You have to choose between wall and path. 90%+ of the players do not. Do you understand that?

. No matter what your capability is or how you play, if you used Refreshing Path and want to use it then you have to see how it now is very bad compared to how it was.

This is just false. If you used the first build I listed, you would get great use out of twisting. And next patch is is getting better. Refreshing path is getting buffed heals, making it better. They both give your team major Expedition. Except none of this matters to the way you play. In your use case, of course you are going to use wall. That is okay. Because 90+% of other magic nightblade players will use both. They do not have to make a choice. Do you understand that?

brandonv516

They need to make sure that the path is the same cone size for both now that one is strictly healing and one is strictly damage.

Was this updated?

If they don't, then Refreshing needs something else to balance with Twisting.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

.especially since enemies can also move out of that damage before the full duration.

If enemies are moving out of your wall or your path, you have a bad tank. Unless it is a mechanic that forces the boss to move, you have no reason not hit them with a good tank. And don't bring PvP into this, all ground based aoes suffer there, as people are not going to stand in your aoe, no matter the size.

So how would you suggest a NB tanks keeps enemies in a twisting path? NB do not have any access to root, and stuns are very short, too short to keep casting.

I don't actually disagree with you in part btw, but I think you are basically saying NB tanks can only be bad.

Twisting is significantly worse than razer caltrops in every way - look at my comparison a few posts back. It it's current form, with it's smaller AE - twisting should really be rooting any mob in it, and any mob that steps in it. This could also help the NB tanks CC niggle. Rooting/snaring (basically keeping enemies in your ground based AE) is far more helpful than a 2 second speed buff for what you are saying should be a stationary fight, especially to a class where ZoS seem to want NB tanks to be mobile. (but they also seem to think 25% ae damage reduction is the same as blocking so...)

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. So how would you suggest a NB tanks keeps enemies in a twisting path? NB do not have any access to root, and stuns are very short, too short to keep casting.

I mean, technically all classes have access to a root. If they slot a bow and use bombard. I am not saying this is even close to ideal but I have ran vWGT with a nb tank that did exactly this. Combined with time freeze and silver leash, it was like we had a dk tank. Was a quick run and he did great on all the bosses, including the planar and the last boss, didn't die at all and held kena still the whole fight. Sent a friend request after, good tank.

I am not a nb tank expert but why wouldn't you use silver leash to stack and then time freeze to slow? I know that leash gives cc immunity but the 4 seconds of slow ought to still work, the stun would not though.

I would think also that nb tanks would use refreshing path, healing seems more important then trying to use the damage to agro, when you can just silver leash or range taunt. Again, not a nb tank expert, I do have a standard meta humping dk tank and then a warden tank that is a little off meta. So I do understand the basics and advanced mechanics of tanking.

But then you will probably be like why even play a nb tank if you are using all those skills I listed. I don't have an answer to that. Maybe you just like being a nightblade?

lucky_dutch

I can kinda see what they were going for with the change because it did add a lot of group utility for just being part of the Magblades dps rotation. They’ve basically said “right, it’s damage or healing, pick one”. The problem is that it isn’t actually good enough at either and this is effectively a whopping 50% nerf to the skill.

They should have compensated with a small increase to each option so that whilst it can now only perform one function at once, it is at least a little better at that function.

The other issue is that it’s now pretty worthless in PvP which is another big nerf to Magblade’s survivability options there.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. So how would you suggest a NB tanks keeps enemies in a twisting path? NB do not have any access to root, and stuns are very short, too short to keep casting.

I mean, technically all classes have access to a root. If they slot a bow and use bombard. I am not saying this is even close to ideal but I have ran vWGT with a nb tank that did exactly this. Combined with time freeze and silver leash, it was like we had a dk tank. Was a quick run and he did great on all the bosses, including the planar and the last boss, didn't die at all and held kena still the whole fight. Sent a friend request after, good tank.

I am not a nb tank expert but why wouldn't you use silver leash to stack and then time freeze to slow? I know that leash gives cc immunity but the 4 seconds of slow ought to still work, the stun would not though.

I would think also that nb tanks would use refreshing path, healing seems more important then trying to use the damage to agro, when you can just silver leash or range taunt. Again, not a nb tank expert, I do have a standard meta humping dk tank and then a warden tank that is a little off meta. So I do understand the basics and advanced mechanics of tanking.

But then you will probably be like why even play a nb tank if you are using all those skills I listed. I don't have an answer to that. Maybe you just like being a nightblade?

Yeah every skill you listed was non class Now every class <should> have some weak areas compared to others, otherwise you will get a single class that can dominate & this is anti-balance. Bit like NB PVP/DPS or DK tanking. I don't consider this particularly healthy for a game that seems to be trying to balance classes in each role, well every other expansion anyway.

NB tank? Well, it's probably the class-role combo I fell in love with. I don't enjoy DPS on NB, because it feels like you are forced into weaving. Other classes are a lot less noticeable in that regard, and NB healing I've never tried - my partner would prob kill me as she mains a templar healer. I tried DK tank when I first started playing - found it boring

Silverleash is too stamina costly for me personally & time freeze is too slow - waiting 4 secs for that stun seems like an age. I've used swarm mothers historically, but again non-class, and then you miss out on the benefit from something like lord warden. NB have too many DPS/major expedition skills & passives and not enough utility. Bombard could be a suitable option for me personally (and one i'd never considered), but quite right - it's not going to be ideal in any shape or form.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@aeowulf what does being a nb tank mean to you? Using the skills I listed, even with their downsides, you can emulate a dk tank fairly closely. I am just wondering what about nbs makes them not boring?

Mystrius_Archaion

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf what does being a nb tank mean to you? Using the skills I listed, even with their downsides, you can emulate a dk tank fairly closely. I am just wondering what about nbs makes them not boring?

It's just a different style. Nightblade tanks were about self-healing and doing so mostly by sucking life from the enemies.
It's fun.

My nightblade hybrid is my most fun character to play right now on live servers, but Refreshing Path is a key dps/heal skill in that. If they remove the damage then I lose a hell of a lot of dps and don't gain enough healing compared to other "pure heal" skills, and definitely not the same mobility because Refreshing Path is ridiculously small area.

db0ssman

I feel like I've had the DK-NB tank discussion a lot in the context of Templar-NB healers. Templars were given the best toys when it comes to healing, which might not be that bad if ZoS didn't constantly nerf other classes' abilities that threatened the templar hegemony in all aspects of the game.

You can approximate a templar's healing skills with shared abilities, but all of the shared abilities will be significantly worse than what the templar alone can bring. For example:

Breath of Life - Healing ward - Really only the NB even has a class ability to compete with breath of life in Healthy Offering (the warden has that vine swing but I don't think most use it due to how clunky it is and the fact that you will die swinging into the aoe someone else is standing in). Healing ward costs more and disappears after a few seconds. If you use the ward ally morph, you still need to heal them. Come Murkmire, that initial heal for healing ward is leaving due to pvp.

Ritual of Rebirth - Healing Springs & Pancea - Healing springs can be used if you know the group is going to take damage like a scripted boss attack, or slower group health regain if there is a small but constant damage and your class doesn't have much hots. You'll have to use Pancea for emergency group heals, but it is an ULT which makes it unreliable. Ritual of Rebirth can be used for all 3 of these cases.

Restoring Aura - Siphon Spirit (whatever that resto ability is called) - Spirit has a 1.5 second channel time and only effects 1 enemy. Over the length of the ability, spirit probably gives back more health, but aura gives a 10% boost to all restore. (Elemental drain is good for meta builds where the tanks anticipate a healer adding breach, but most pug group tanks will use the breaching version of puncture)

Extended Ritual - Purge & 3x mutagen - Purge alone costs more than extended ritual, even if you use the thrifty morph. Enemies are also slowed while in the aura and you gain minor mending.

Reflecting Light - Mage light - Gives Major Prophecy, but reflecting light also adds a dot to an enemy and adds minor sorcery to the group (which will also increase your healing).

Luminous Shards - Energy Orb - Luminous shards don't heal, but you can drop them right on the intended recipient and they give a decent aoe dot until the recipient uses them. Orbs will give a negligible HoT and have a small window of usability, which means a dps/tank will have to break rotation more often to proc them.

This is why you shouldn't try and play a NB healer like a Templar. Unfortunately, if a class can do something better than a templar which is the standard bearer, ZoS has a tendency to nerf it, but that still leaves it much worse than a templar overall.

For example with the NB, you could do more damage than a templar while playing a healer. In order to lower this, ZoS is nerfing refreshing path to remove the damage and raise the healing. This puts in around in line with the healing done by extended ritual, but only within an extremely limited range. You could actually 1/2 the time of the extended ritual and use the ritual of retribution morph and have an abiltiy that deals damage, slows enemies, cleanses 2 debuffs, has a much better aoe set-up and still lasts about 2/3 of the time of path.

The coming nerf to crits isn't going to hurt a templar healer nearly as much as a NB healer because while using fairly few large scale heals, the templar should rely more on set massive heals instead of relying on chance and having people die. With the nightblade who has many smaller scale heals, crits are much more attractive. If you are trying to put out 16k healing based on having 9 tics in a second, then you benefit from having a high crit score. With a templar, lowering the amount of base healing to raise up to 60% crit when you have 2 or 3 heals accounting for all 16k, they could die 40% of the time where BoL or Rebirth don't proc the crit. Having 2/3 of 9 smaller heals crit means that the actual healing would probably jump between 14 and 20k most seconds which can keep people alive.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf what does being a nb tank mean to you? Using the skills I listed, even with their downsides, you can emulate a dk tank fairly closely. I am just wondering what about nbs makes them not boring?

Probably the challenge. They have always been the underdog, but it's now getting to the point where the gap is too big. Mostly due to secondary impacts of skill changes are not being considered wrt. all roles. For example, NB tank sustain is terrible, and changing evasion from dodge to redux = up to 15% increase in sustain needed because there will be more damage landing. Not considered. Easy to fix - give NB a 15% bonus to constitution passive. But it's not considered. What was considered was the extra resources required by NB DPS and there is now a bonus to heavy attacks... Devs only consider NB DPS, and that is a balance problem. (bit like not considering templar tanks for 18 months, or dk healers even now)

I don't think any NB tank wants to emulate a DK. Emulating a DK actually would make them as boring as a dk, and yet this is exactly what groups expect from them - to be a DK (which they are not). It's also what ZoS seem to want, but they also don't want them to block, or stand still, which is really bad news because whilst ground AE's exists, the game mechanics will not favour that style of play. I believe one of the biggest issues NB tanks face is perception, and that's not helped by some popular ESO build sites basically saying they aren't suitable for trials.

I believe every class should be weak in some areas in each role, this is balance. It allows other classes to be better in that area of that role. This can be seen where a class uses leash, or bombard, or whatever instead of having their own class based alternative. This is a good thing. A bad thing is when a class needs to start branching out in too many areas - it shows generic non-class skills are better or more suitable than any class based alternative.

Suggesting any non-class skill for any task is akin to listing every area that class is weaker than other classes. Also every non-class skill equipped means your class flavour is being diluted.

Did you ever try out sap tanking pre Morrowind? If not, that's a real big shame.

aeowulf

Did you look at my comparison of twisting to razer caltrops? That is another good example of bad! Razer caltrops is the same cost, does more damage per tick, has more ticks, lasts longer, has a snare to keep mobs in it's AE longer and is massive. NB are getting the wrong end of the stick, and it's now pushing them into an area where non-class skills are better than class skills. That's across the board too.

Refreshing is obviously a lot tougher to compare to something, but major expedition should not be on that skill. It should be something useful to people standing in it and should not give you something that enhances your chance to not get healing from it...

Silver_Strider

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf what does being a nb tank mean to you? Using the skills I listed, even with their downsides, you can emulate a dk tank fairly closely. I am just wondering what about nbs makes them not boring?

We don't WANT to emulate DK Tanks. We want NB tanks to be their own thing, offering their own group utility and having their own identity.

Prior to Morrowind, we were Sap Tanks, capable of mass amounts of damage/healing that put us miles ahead of DK Tanks are far as dungeon content was concerned and while it wasn't perfect since it wasn't a totally viable Trial Tank, we at least had something to distinguish ourselves from DK Tanks. Then Morrowind came, striping us of that identity so we had to make due with another, inferior niche with Dodge Tanks using Tava's to be aggressive Warhorn users and now we're losing that as well, on top of our damage AND sustain taking another unnecessary blow. Major Expedition on Path doesn't help us either because Magblade will be providing it with Twisting Path anyway, putting us in the exact same boat as DK Healers in that our other spec offers all our utility at much greater effectiveness.

At this point, we're being FORCED to emulate DK Tanks, offering none of their utility, CC, sustain, or anything really and it sucks.

RedRook

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf what does being a nb tank mean to you? Using the skills I listed, even with their downsides, you can emulate a dk tank fairly closely. I am just wondering what about nbs makes them not boring?

We don't WANT to emulate DK Tanks. We want NB tanks to be their own thing, offering their own group utility and having their own identity.

Prior to Morrowind, we were Sap Tanks, capable of mass amounts of damage/healing that put us miles ahead of DK Tanks are far as dungeon content was concerned and while it wasn't perfect since it wasn't a totally viable Trial Tank, we at least had something to distinguish ourselves from DK Tanks. Then Morrowind came, striping us of that identity so we had to make due with another, inferior niche with Dodge Tanks using Tava's to be aggressive Warhorn users and now we're losing that as well, on top of our damage AND sustain taking another unnecessary blow. Major Expedition on Path doesn't help us either because Magblade will be providing it with Twisting Path anyway, putting us in the exact same boat as DK Healers in that our other spec offers all our utility at much greater effectiveness.

At this point, we're being FORCED to emulate DK Tanks, offering none of their utility, CC, sustain, or anything really and it sucks.

Sap tanks were cool. I miss them.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

We don't WANT to emulate DK Tanks. We want NB tanks to be their own thing, offering their own group utility and having their own identity.

man, i all i meant by that is that you are able to do all the things that make a dk tank superior to the rest, chains, talons, you know the stuff you want a tank to do, stack and hold mobs. you do what a dk tank can do, because it makes a dungeon run faster and safer.

At this point, we're being FORCED to emulate DK Tanks, offering none of their utility, CC, sustain, or anything really and it sucks.

you are not being forced to do anything but it is better to pull mobs into a single stack and hold them still so the dps can burn then. so that dps are stacked and are easier to heal. it just makes everything easier .


but really, what is the nb tank identity? how to differentiate a nb tank from a dk? that is all i am asking. if it is just self heals, i mean good for you but what use is a healer then? and damage is on the dps. tanks do not need to be doing either of those, except for self heals of course.


thank you @aeowulf for the detailed response. this in particular resonated with me "Nightblade tanks were about self-healing and doing so mostly by sucking life from the enemies." i can understand that.

Did you ever try out sap tanking pre Morrowind? If not, that's a real big shame.

no, i only had a my dk tank up until wardens came out, i just leveled a tank at the time becuase my friend who was the tank i always played with quit and i wanted to be able to tank if i needed to.

Did you look at my comparison of twisting to razer caltrops?

i did but i dont see why you are using either when you have time freeze and leash. as far as i am concerned, caltrops and twisting are dps skills and do not belong on a tank. If you are useing the slow from Caltrops to CC mobs, wouldn't time freeze be superior, they have the same area, 8 meters, and time freeze will stun(if not already CC imune) after the slow. Refreshing path would also be able to heal you and your team, giving you a more reliable way to get the default passive ulti gain. Now that would not stack if you already have it from blocking but you can support your team with heals. again, i am not a nb tank expert though.

I am interested in what your build looks like @aeowulf, if I would build a nb tank, it would probably look like something like this-

Front bar. Infused s/b crusher

Refreshing path- dark cloak- leaching strikes- heroic slash- Pierce armor- uli bolstering Darkness

Back bar, infused ice/lightning staff, absord Stam/weakening

Sap essence- dark shade- time freeze- silver leash- wall of element- ulti warhorn

Now I am not sure how much healing the skills I have would be, should be enough though and you get all the utility that a tank ought to have.

aeowulf

Caltrops is used for initial attention grabbing and the refreshing agro effect the dot has. It is the biggest AE dot out there, but on it's own it's still not perfect at keeping mobs on you. (Have a read of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro)

My playing build was tava's + either dragon, mending or sanctuary. Prior to that it was Bahraha + leeching.

Now i've seen murkmire PTS notes I'm experimenting with two NB tanks right now so they are 'in progress' to say the least. My main is Imperial & trying out warrior poet and plague doctors and stacks stamina regen. Does not block unless absolutely necessary and relies on bone shield/dark cloak. It's really tough - too much running around for a tank. Tanks need to stay roughly still otherwise your parties AE's are useless. Have an issue with the camera too - running around means mobs can go offscreen. It's these heavy attacks from these that kill you, usually from some sort of immobilization, which in turn makes you susceptible to something nasty from a boss. Other build is an Argonian which has stacked healing done/recieved with leeching plate and sanctuary. Similar issues. General survivability is not the problem with these, it's just having to do everything. If I look for mobs to leash in, then i'm not looking for heavy attacks or at my resource bar. Yes, no ebon, unfortunately, nor alkosh/torugs. Did try, but it is not viable <on my builds> because the NB needs boosting via gear. DK doesn't so can wear group friendly sets. This is a big problem for trials...

Skill wise - well there is no one setup for skills but you have a fairly standard idea. Silver leash is too expensive to use for me because (I feel) NB tanks need to health stack now, which means much lower stamina = forget skills like leash. Old days is was not the case. Also means that (excluding dark cloak) self heals are now a lot weaker than they were previously.

Bolstering darkness is awful in PVE - I don't know of any DPS that would actively go out of their way to reduce their DPS to get a buff that doesn't increase DPS that they've managed to do without since ESO was released. It's also something only 1 class has, so it's never going to be explicitely needed. This is PVP only skill now. It's like Veil of Blades but without the damage ticks. Really needs the mitigation adding back in. Soul Tether sits here now, or shield wall.

Refreshing - will see what Murkmire brings, I run this on both currently, but i think it will only be viable on build 2 after Murkmire.

Time stop - caltrops is bigger and lasts longer. Also means mobs are more likely to head to you than DPS due to the DOT effect.

I do run lotus fan when I can - second AE, but I struggle with bar space and whilst I try to jam this in, I struggle to justify. I like the idea of mystic guard, which will probably replace this & strife. Again, removing class skills for generic. Needs a much longer tether though, at least as long as any 'charge/teleport' skill.

No point running shades + herioc slash. Need the bar space, so I switch between them them but heroic is better in just about every way. Another example of a class skill being inferior to a generic. The time ultigen is most important is when there is a horn rotation, which is usually against a single target.

Structured entropy - on build 1 - mostly for the passive. Used to even up my health as i'd run shadow skills on one bar, and this on the other.

Sap Essence - on build 2 only. No where near as good was it was - and not as good as many other healing skills. Mostly due to it being again, a lot worse than many other healing skills. Compared to ritual of retribution - one tick of 487-974 healed, vs 7 ticks of 402 with a big AE Dot which gives a healing synergy. Granted is is 3/4 the cost but it's also targetted on the caster and has a 8m vs 12m AE.

Both taunts obviously, and usually immovable pots... Food depends on which build.

Would like to add, my builds change a lot these days as right now I'm not happy with either. And personal prefence thing: I don't like staff back bar.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

First, thank you again the detailed response, your builds sound like fun. Just a few things.

. Caltrops is used for initial attention grabbing and the refreshing agro effect the dot has. It is the biggest AE dot out there, but it's still not perfect

I get the first part, but I feel like you would be better served my the 4 seconds of slow and then stun of time freeze. You ought to aggro everything inside too. The second part is not accurate either, time freeze is the same size, 8 meters, and if you want damage, frost blockade has a bigger area, 8 meters radius vs a 18x12 rectangle. That is ~201 meters vs 216 meters area. A ~7% difference.

I also question the need for initial aggro on everything, you really only need to get the big guys attention and then just rain in the little guys if you have the ablitys. Usually in my tanking experience, that is like 2-3 in each encounter that you have to aggro, the rest don't do enough damage to threaten the party, at least if your healer is half awake.

. Silver leash is too expensive to use for me because (I feel) NB tanks need to health stack now, which means much lower stamina = forget skills like leash

My dk tank runs high Stam, like 24k and only 13k magic, because I quest with her, as a two-hander, with just weapons. Means I only have enough to chain like 3 mobs in at a time. This has served me well. You would have enough stam to do that if you had a standard tank with 35-40k health and 17-18k of each resource. My warden tank only has like 17k Stam but has like 26k magic, I almost never run out of Stam on him, mostly because of netch and the fact that heroic slash and Peirce armor are the only 2 Stam ablitys on his bar.

.
No point running shades + herioc slash. Need the bar space, so I switch between them them but heroic is better in just about every way.

The my theoretical nb bars are set up, the s/b bar is the boss bar and the back bar is the AOE. So when you are doing trash pulls, I would only be on the front bar to taunt the big ones. Trash pulls, I am almost 100% on my back bar with an ice staff. So shades is there for the AOE minor maim and slash is really only there for the minor herioism on boss fights. The maim is just incidental to me. Also your back bar gets 3% more health, as you know.

. Bolstering darkness is awful in PVE

Front bar ultimates are almost never used. Tanks use warhorn. I choose bolstering darkness over the soul tether because of the extra 3% health again from the passives. Like on my warden, I have Northern storm, for the 500 spell and physical resistance from the passives and the extra magic, for leeching vines heal. The only time I ever actually hit the front ulti is if things go side ways, which I feel like 17 seconds of major protection with the fact it sticks with you, for duration, is better then a AOE stun that heals you for 13 seconds.

. Both taunts obviously,

I don't run both taunts most of the time. Only Peirce. That is why it is not on my hypothetical bars. Only time I do is on boss fights where there is no adds to pull. Then I drop chains/frozen device

So the way I imagine playing a nb tank would go like this in trash mobs. Cast shade, then hit them with wall, move in, cast time freeze, then pull the mobs that are not in your bubble into your bubble, once as many as you can get are, use sap, recasting time freeze as your DPS burn mobs. Pretty simple. On bosses, you taunt and use heroic slash. Keeping up leeching and refreshing, using dark cloak if you need more heals. Easy.


Again, thank you for explaining what I asked.

aeowulf

I will defo try swapping out caltrops for time freeze again, I am in an experimental stage right now anyway and will need to adjust my play style again for this patch.

Historically i've been using caltrops mostly between me and the party, but ensuring I tag a mob or two -> followed by lotus fan to the nastiest looking ranged mob -> soul tether -> pray everything is running towards me at this point and try to taunt any that aren't. I guess i'm just very used to caltrops and relying on the (not 100% reliable) damage ticks to attract mobs. Will try out time freeze - everyone plays differently, so some skills will always suit some folk better. Maybe i'm just trying to play the old way still.

If you are also considering ultimates for their passive, barrier is also something that again i've used historically (and had forgotten about!) Minor protection exists too, but it is less useful as that is also dark cloak.

Re questing content - NB tank never had the same DPS problem other tanks did. It wasn't because their DPS was significantly better, it was because they used to invis past most of the trash content Obviously this has now gone for most. For me - i'll sometimes just morph it out but usually go with a templar anyway, so her DPS carries me

Try out your build I'm curious what you think of NB tank. My builds are just different, i've not actualy found any I really like since sap tanking days. I can see high suitability in different areas, but they are just a little too hard to play (for me) or just a little too susceptible to random events. (Which perma-block builds tend not to be)

aeowulf

Please also remember a NB tank can't permablock. This means they take significantly more damage (+33% compared to someone who is blocking) which means they need significantly more healing and a significantly higher health pool. This means lower mag/stam pools. A ~48k health permablock build would be more comparable to a ~64k health non-blocking build running immovable permanently. (This is the direction i'm trying out because I think it's the direction ZoS want for NB tanks - some guidance here please ZoS, i'm getting tired of incorrectly guessing what you want for us.) In that regard Dark Cloak makes up for the heal difference (technically not, but does when passives are factored in) at the cost of an additional slot.

Path (and we've gone off topic a bit) is being changed to a heal or DPS skill. The dual utility served tanks well, but not so much if they are going to need to be running around - i.e out of their newly created refreshing path. Just to balance the above maths, the NB tank would need something akin to major protection & immovable whilst stood in it. (Ridiculous to think of adding these, but that's roughly what block does) This way Dark Cloak would actually be somewhat comparable to GDB. But then further balancing would be required because NB tanks <can> block - how that part is worked out is anyones guess...

lucky_dutch

Ultimately this ability has just received a 50% nerf.

Insane sledgehammer balancing.

Valrien

Just...use Twisting?

Is there something I'm missing here?

aeowulf

May as well use caltrops - costs the same, bigger, snare to keep mobs in it longer, more ticks and more damage per tick :P Or elemental blockade, same cost, slightly shorter duration but significantly more damage (much better DPS passives) and status effects.

Both morphs can now be directly compared to non-class skills, and that comparison is not favourable from the eyes of a NB tank.

Dracan_Fontom

Makes me.wonder why Templars get to keep a giant size AoE that can heal, purge them and damage enemies yet nbs small AoE that can only heal and damage gets nerfed.

Kolzki

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Which is another point, Sap Essence could use some work, but in some situations it outclasses Refreshing Path also.

And the other morph is getting a buff but not Sap Essence... /facepalm

Why is this a facepalm?

Power Extraction is garbage. Literally the only reason to use it is if you can't get Major Brutality elsewhere.

Power Extraction does not heal like Sap Essence and it does terrible damage compared to Steel Tornado. It is horrible, probably one of the least-used skills in the game.

Power extraction is cheaper, gives ulti on use and procs the disease status effect (also 8% max magic but Stam builds don't really care about that). It also procs enchants and the ax bleed. Power extraction also was more DPS above ~70% health, now that will be closer to ~50% health. Power extraction is a very underrated skill. I used it all the time on my stamblade.

Are we talking about the same skill? Power extraction has a 5% chance to proc diseased status, just like any other disease skill (nb have a few). Health does not affect its damage. It’s not a weapon skill so it should not proc weapon enchants. Honestly not sure if it procs axe bleeds - depends if it’s coded as melee which often seems rather arbitrary.

Silver_Strider

Valrien wrote: »

Just...use Twisting?

Is there something I'm missing here?

The reason Refreshing Path is used is because it covered for several weaknesses in NBs Tank Toolkit.
NB Tanks aren't as naturally bulky as DK or even Warden Tanks so we need to supplement our lower bulk with HoTs, like Refreshing Path and Swallow soul. The damage was used as our aggro generator in AoE situations so it had this dual functionality to let us be able to perform our job at least somewhat reliably.

Now, we have to choose between Aggro Generation or Bulkiness, widening an already large gap between NB and other Tanks.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

.Are we talking about the same skill? Power extraction has a 5% chance to proc diseased status, just like any other disease skill (nb have a few).

Yes. I have actually used power extraction pretty extensively on my stamblade in pve. Use it instead of steel tornado for the reasons I state and the fact that you get major brutality. My dual wield bar looks like this when I use it, evil hunter- power extraction- killers blade- blood craze- suprize attack- ulti soul harvest. I am cheap and don't use pots for the major buffs, I still get 35k DPS, more then enough for the content I do.

It is true that power extraction is a 5% chance to proc diseased but the only other skill I use that is disease is the bow proc, as you can see I use the magic morph of the ultimate, because it is much better in pve. The bow proc has a 10% chance, as it is a single target ablitys. I only mentioned the status effect because in AOE, as power extraction is, that 5% chance is procing a lot and every bit of damage must be accounted for when comparing damage skills.

.Health does not affect its damage.

You are right that health does not impact Power extraction but the mobs health does impact steel tornados, the skill @LiquidPony was comparing it to.

.It’s not a weapon skill so it should not proc weapon enchants.

You are right again that it is not a weapon skill but non the less, it does proc enchants. Whether it is intended or not, it does.

Honestly not sure if it procs axe bleeds - depends if it’s coded as melee which often seems rather arbitrary.

Again, whether or not it is intended, it does indeed proc the axe bleed. Just like suprize attack does. If you used the skill, you would know this.

Fact is, power extraction is a good skill. Does a bunch of things and is getting buffed.

aeowulf

I think my only issue with power extraction is it doesn't really extract power Infact there's nothing even remoting extracting about it. I think they got the names of the skills round the wrong way - sap essence kinda extracts (health) and gives it to the party, whilst power extraction saps the essence of your target by doing damage.

Am I literally the only person to have ever noticed/be bothered by this?